Participants:
Series Code: NOW
Program Code: NOW200024S
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00:15 This is 3ABN Now
00:17 with John and Rosemary Malkiewycz. 00:21 Hello and welcome to 3ABN Now. 00:24 You know, we enjoy doing these programs. 00:27 And 3ABN being a faith based ministry relies on money 00:31 coming in from people just like you 00:33 who enjoy these programs and support the work 00:37 of seeing the gospel go around the world. 00:39 These programs are really showing how people in their, 00:43 during their life step out in faith 00:46 and do things that are very different 00:48 to what most people normally do. 00:50 And we are talking with Barry Chapman. 00:52 In our recent program, 00:55 we would talk to Barry about Botswana. 00:57 And that was an interesting story. 00:59 I really enjoyed it. 01:00 But you know, from there, 01:01 as a project manager in Botswana, 01:04 Barry was given a bigger responsibility 01:06 to become the ADRA director in Uganda and Rwanda. 01:09 And you know, those names are synonymous with Idi Amin, 01:14 something that happened there, 01:15 the genocide, it was a terrible thing. 01:17 And it was at that time that Barry Chapman was there 01:20 with his wife and his children 01:22 doing work in that part of the world. 01:24 So, Barry, welcome again to the program. 01:26 I'm looking forward to hearing the story. 01:30 But some of the scenes may be a little bit distressing 01:33 and the stories, but they are real. 01:35 And no matter where you go, 01:37 even during the time of the Second World War, 01:39 we don't like hearing about 01:40 what happened to the Jews, but it did happen. 01:43 And this happened in Uganda. 01:45 So, Barry, we're looking forward 01:47 to hearing what you're going to share with us 01:49 and the work you did there in Uganda. 01:53 Rosemary, Barry has another verse, 01:54 a verse for us. 01:56 You have Revelation 22:14 for us this program. 02:01 And this is actually 02:02 one of John's memory verses said, 02:05 "Blessed are they that do His commandments, 02:08 that they may have right to the tree of life, 02:11 and may enter in through the gates 02:14 into the city." 02:15 Isn't that a joyous thought? 02:17 Wonderful. 02:18 Why is that verse special to you, Barry? 02:21 Well, I guess, one of the things that, 02:24 you know, I'm really passionate about 02:27 is being present to walk through that gate. 02:31 And in life throws you 02:35 some curveballs sometimes 02:38 and it's not always easy. 02:40 There are always some challenges 02:41 that come in life. 02:42 But the end goal is what is important, 02:46 where we are focused and what the result will be. 02:50 So I try to be connected to Jesus every day. 02:54 So that I've driven a peg in the ground, 02:57 and I'm going forward, I'm not going back. 02:59 Here Jesus told the parable about the sheep 03:02 and the shepherd and the gate or the door. 03:05 And he said that He is the door or the gate to the sheep fold. 03:10 And the thief is the one 03:12 who tries to enter in 03:13 through a window or some other way. 03:18 But the true shepherd 03:20 enters in through the door, the gate. 03:23 And it says here that 03:25 they may enter in through the gates 03:28 into the city. 03:29 God's people will not be trying to climb in a window. 03:32 They will not be trying to find 03:33 some other way to get into the city, 03:35 they will be going through the gate, 03:37 through Jesus is, 03:38 the only way in there is through Jesus. 03:41 And there'll be nobody trying to climb 03:44 in through the windows because there'll be nobody else 03:46 but God's people going through 03:48 in and out of the city through Jesus. 03:51 I like the thought too, Barry, 03:52 that it doesn't matter who you are, 03:55 the invitation is for you. 03:57 You have the same opportunity to inherit eternal life. 04:02 And you know, part of what missionaries do 04:04 as they go around the world they, 04:06 through their life example, 04:08 reflect light, the light of Jesus 04:10 and the character of God, 04:12 so that they too will be 04:13 drawn into that beautiful city 04:15 and be with God throughout eternity. 04:17 That's what the Bible teaches us. 04:19 That's the plan of salvation that if you are watching, 04:22 you want to experience that, as Barry said, 04:24 he put a peg in the ground 04:25 and he's going straight forward. 04:27 He's not turning back. 04:29 And that's what I encourage you do. 04:30 And the Bible is the means 04:32 and the way for you to find that peg, 04:35 that final goal to work to. 04:38 So, Barry, you know, 04:39 tell us you finished your project in Botswana. 04:45 And they asked you to be the ADRA director of Uganda. 04:48 Just tell us a little bit about that transition 04:51 and a little bit about Uganda where you were? 04:55 So Uganda is on the equator, in Africa, 04:58 about Central Africa on the eastern side, 05:02 there's the map. 05:04 We headed for Kampala 05:07 which is right on Lake Victoria. 05:09 And beautiful part of the world, 05:11 tropical, beautiful spot 05:14 and it's elevated so it's not hot, 05:17 you know, not a lot of high humidity. 05:20 It's a pleasant climate. 05:22 Very different to where you're at Botswana? 05:24 Very different. Very different. 05:26 Though it stand on the lake, 05:27 is that, does that mean the lake's elevated? 05:28 Yeah, the lake is elevated, 05:30 it's about 3000 feet if my memory is right, 05:32 I can't remember exactly. 05:33 That's quite high. 05:34 It's quite a long way up in the air. 05:36 Yeah. 05:37 Because it, you know, 05:38 flows to the Nile River and then all the way to Egypt. 05:40 So it goes, water goes a long way. 05:41 You sort of think because you're by a lake, 05:43 you'd be at a lot of elevation. 05:45 Yeah. 05:46 And it's a big lake, there's ships, 05:48 big seagoing ships on the lake. 05:50 They carry produce from Tasmania to Uganda 05:53 and across, so it's a big lake. 05:55 Tanzania. Tanzania. 05:56 Tanzania. I'm sorry. 05:58 Yeah. Otherwise, it's a long way. 06:02 So you've moved to Kampala? Yep. 06:05 What is happening there in Uganda? 06:07 So in Uganda, the previous ADRA director 06:11 had gone back to Canada. 06:13 So they asked me to come in and lead the team there. 06:16 It was a team of one. 06:19 What you? 06:20 No, there's one other young guy, 06:22 Santiza Kajubi, excellent young man. 06:25 And so, we had a house and we had a car 06:28 and we had a motorbike. 06:30 And so we were set to dream big 06:33 and to develop a program 06:36 where we could actually touch people's lives 06:38 and make a difference. 06:39 Now at this stage, this man, 06:42 the ADRA director you said has gone back to Canada, 06:44 but he, there was no actual ADRA Uganda, was it? 06:49 There was a little bit of activity there, 06:51 but not a tremendous lot of activity. 06:53 So there was no building or anything? 06:56 Idi Amin had been involved with his atrocities, 06:59 up until about '79. 07:01 And then another gentleman, Milton Obote, 07:04 he took over Uganda, and through this time, 07:07 there are a lot of atrocities. 07:09 And eventually, things in about 1986 settled under Museveni, 07:15 the guy who's been in charge ever since 07:17 and things stabilized, 07:18 but still we're in a state of confusion. 07:22 A lot of schools were messed up, 07:23 a lot of places were messed up. 07:25 And it took time for that to rebuild. 07:27 So ADRA had been there for a little bit 07:29 trying to get some things going. 07:30 But when I came, it was to try 07:34 and step the work up a little bit. 07:36 Now, I asked you what happened to Idi Amin, 07:39 because I not know, 07:41 being a young person I really didn't know. 07:43 And I don't know if a lot of the viewers know 07:46 what happened to him either. 07:47 You said he was forced into exile. 07:51 So what happened was the Tanzania government 07:54 had got to the point of, they said enough's enough. 07:56 And so, they mobilized their forces, 07:58 and they chased Idi Amin 08:00 and his troops out of Uganda, up into Sudan. 08:04 And as he left Uganda, he killed most of the men. 08:09 And so there were thousands of widows, 08:11 right on the border town there Oraba, 08:13 as you hit up into Sudan. 08:15 And then he went off to exile somewhere else. 08:18 And so from then on the country still stayed in, 08:22 has always been a troubled place. 08:24 And then eventually under Museveni things 08:27 stabilized quite reasonable. 08:29 Now, you're telling us that you did something more 08:32 when you were there? 08:33 Which you went there in '91? Yeah. 08:36 You did something for those widows. 08:38 Now, this is quite a while later? 08:40 Yes, it is. 08:42 Those widows, their economic situation 08:45 was pretty vulnerable. 08:47 They didn't have money. 08:49 They were struggling. 08:50 And so I visited there at one stage 08:52 and they said to us, we just need some livelihood, 08:57 some way of generating money to support us. 08:59 So I said, "What are your skills? 09:01 What can you do?" 09:02 And they said, "Well, we know how to grow chilies, 09:05 but we can't market them." 09:07 So I said to them, "Well, 09:09 I don't know much about chilies, 09:10 but let me see what I can do." 09:11 So I went away and had a talk to a few people 09:13 and found out that the Shell oil company 09:15 were buying chilies 09:17 and the chili is used for hardening steel. 09:20 Isn't that extraordinary? 09:21 Well, you can understand if you've eaten them. 09:24 So what we did was, we mobilize these ladies 09:29 and we would organize to transport the chilies down, 09:32 store them in storage 09:33 and then sell them in bulk to Shell 09:36 and then take the money back to the widows 09:38 and it became a really, really genuine little project. 09:42 It's amazing. 09:43 They must have been very hot chilies though. 09:45 Well, they were hot. They were very hot. 09:47 I wouldn't, I didn't work on them, 09:49 I left it to others. 09:50 To harden steel of all things? 09:53 Yeah, it's quite amazing, some of the chemical processes. 09:55 So, you know when I think about that, 09:56 Barry, you've got to, 09:58 when you go to a place like this, 10:00 you got to be very open minded with what you can do. 10:04 Yeah. 10:06 You got to have a broad vision, not just a tunnel vision, 10:09 otherwise you're not going to achieve anything. 10:11 So I could see that as we moved around, 10:14 around the country, 10:15 I could see there were lots of challenges. 10:18 And so, we ran the risk of being blown away 10:21 with the challenges. 10:22 So what we tried to do was target and focus 10:26 where things were that we could make a difference. 10:28 And as I looked, 10:29 I noticed that many, many schools 10:32 were just made of sticks and mud, 10:34 just pushed together with thatched roofs. 10:36 And the children were just, massive numbers of children. 10:40 And so we set about, figure it out. 10:43 So we wrote a proposal 10:44 and got some funding to build 90 schools. 10:48 Again, we could have just built five schools. 10:51 But I thought, "No, we'll leave this to the Lord 10:53 to see what we can do here." 10:55 So we worked out a plan where the people 10:57 would make their own bricks, 10:59 they would build their own school, 11:00 we'd supply the cement, the nails, the timber, 11:02 and the sheets of iron, the doors, 11:04 the desks and the windows, 11:05 the windows were just frames with bolts on. 11:08 And so, that was the way we put the proposal together, 11:11 we sent it off to a funder. 11:13 The Danish government came on board 11:16 and funded that program. 11:17 The total funding package over 11:19 quite a number of years ended up being, 11:21 I think, pretty close to 10 million US dollars. 11:23 And we were able through a number of years 11:27 to complete that project. 11:28 After I left Uganda, the project was still running. 11:31 And the project got completed. 11:32 And I think there are over 90 schools 11:34 were actually built. 11:36 And so these communities, 11:38 many of them were government schools 11:39 that we were building. 11:41 So I did a deal with the government, 11:43 that at least one-third of the schools 11:45 we built would be government schools 11:47 and two-thirds would be Adventist schools. 11:50 And so I negotiated that to get that through. 11:52 I had to sit outside 11:54 the Minister of Education office 11:55 for two days straight 11:58 because they refused to talk to me. 11:59 So I said, "I'm not going to home 12:00 till you talk to me." 12:02 So I just sat there. 12:03 When I came back next morning, I sat in there. 12:06 And eventually he called me and he said, "Okay, I give up. 12:08 What do you want?" 12:10 And so, I told him. 12:11 He said, "All right, 12:13 so long as one of the schools is in my electorate." 12:14 And I said, "All right, there's no problem. 12:15 You nominate the school." 12:17 And so then the project was developed, 12:18 and it was a very successful project. 12:21 Now we've got a photo of a school. 12:26 I don't know if it's the same school, 12:28 but there's a before type photo and an after photo, 12:31 the thatched school, 12:33 and then a concrete brick school 12:36 with a tin roof. 12:37 So that's, that's the type of schools 12:39 that we found. 12:41 And there were thousands of schools like that. 12:42 And some of them are falling down? 12:44 Oh, many, many of them, 12:45 I had to replace the thatch all the time. 12:47 And then that was the design that everybody came up 12:50 with the brick building there. 12:53 So and the reason they went for that design 12:54 is the parents were keen that the windows 12:57 be high enough 12:59 so the children could not look at the windows 13:00 while they're sitting at their desks. 13:02 So we had a high window, 13:04 a breezeway for air to flow through. 13:06 And the children were not allowed 13:07 to look outside... 13:09 So they could concentrate? 13:10 So they could concentrate on their work. 13:12 You know, that would have been frustrating for me, 13:13 because when I was in school, 13:14 I was always interested what was happening outside. 13:16 Yes. 13:17 You know, I see you as a practical person, 13:18 Barry, because, you know, 13:20 the secret is, you can have aid, right, 13:23 where people just arrive and give. 13:26 But I think there's a greater benefit 13:28 when people take possession 13:29 and value what they have and be involved in it. 13:34 And I believe that's why you've had success even in Botswana. 13:37 They had to build and produce and do all those things 13:41 and the same as in the schools that you're talking about. 13:45 The community, the people were involved 13:47 in actually making it. 13:49 So it had value and meaning to them. 13:51 It wasn't just built there that we often do for them. 13:55 And they're more likely to look after it. 13:57 Exactly, yeah. 13:59 Because I've put something into it, 14:02 it becomes ownership. 14:04 And so they'll look after it. 14:06 If you just hand things to people, 14:07 they don't look after it so well. 14:10 So one of the issues 14:11 I found was the people are so poor there. 14:13 So when we went there in 1991, the folk didn't have a lot of, 14:18 they didn't generate a lot of cash, 14:20 but they were very good at doing stuff 14:22 with their hands. 14:23 And so diet was an issue there as well. 14:26 So we talked to them about 14:28 what they are good at, what they can do, 14:31 and what is available in the market 14:32 and what's not available in the market. 14:34 So we set out a project to teach them 14:36 how to grow weeds as greens. 14:40 So what we had these people 14:42 growing the whole range of weeds 14:46 and we would grow them in a straight line 14:48 and hoe them and look after these weeds 14:50 and they would sell them as greens in the market 14:52 and they made a lot of money out of it. 14:54 Weeds? Is that right? 14:56 Weeds. What sort of weeds? 14:57 Any weeds that are edible. 14:58 You know, we in Australia are handfed 15:01 with beautiful stuff in our shops. 15:03 But in these places, 15:05 you don't get that sort of same thing, 15:07 but there are a lot of very good edible weeds 15:10 that are very nutritious, high in iron, 15:11 high in many elements that we need in our diet. 15:14 And you know what? They grow and buy their own. 15:18 They're volunteers. 15:19 They will just, you can't stop them and so. 15:21 They'll even grow when it's not raining. 15:23 It's amazing. 15:25 So we encourage them to do that. 15:27 And lots of folk got involved in that program, 15:29 and so the market gradually filled up 15:32 with weeds as a green. 15:34 And it was really sought after by a lot of people. 15:38 I thought everybody could get their own weeds. 15:40 So you went there as the ADRA director, 15:43 you had a nice office and everything, 15:45 what did you have to do to establish, 15:47 you know, to get ADRA into Uganda? 15:49 You have to build the premises? 15:51 Yeah, there was no office there. 15:52 So I could, my vision was that if we're going to take on 15:55 some of these bigger programs, 15:56 we need to have a good base. 15:58 And we need to be established. 16:00 So I had a talk to our management team 16:04 and our leaders and the church leaders 16:05 supported the idea of building a building. 16:09 So they gave me a piece of land and we got busy. 16:11 And so, we built a building in the first few months 16:14 we were there. 16:15 We got some money from ADRA, Australia 16:18 and from different other donors. 16:20 And we were able to build this. 16:21 We would buy those bricks for about five cents each. 16:27 And they were all handmade bricks, 16:28 and they were burned by hand, are burnt locally. 16:32 And we would build with the brick, 16:34 it was a solid building. 16:36 And it was quite a big building, 16:37 it had probably about 10 offices in it, maybe more. 16:40 And underneath it had a big warehouse 16:42 we used as a customs warehouse. 16:44 That was a registered warehouse, 16:46 and it worked very well. 16:49 So, you know, you're into that place 16:51 where is war torn? 16:52 There must have been a lot of damage. 16:53 Did you see a lot of damage? 16:55 Yeah. It was a lot of damage. 16:57 But I think one of the hard things for me 17:00 was initially was that you drive down the road, 17:03 and you would see these planks all lined up. 17:06 And on top of the planks, they were filled with skulls. 17:10 And I didn't say much about it for a while, 17:13 I thought I better not ask him any questions. 17:17 And eventually I asked Santiza, 17:18 my young guy who's working with me, 17:20 and he said, "Well, these are the ones 17:22 that many of these died in the Obote time 17:24 or in the Idi Amin time, their bodies. 17:27 And lot of families had lost their mom or their dad 17:29 or their uncle or somebody. 17:31 So they would go and select a skull. 17:33 And then they would take at home and bury it 17:36 as if it was their family member 17:37 not knowing who he literally was. 17:39 And so while the years 17:41 we were there that gradually disappeared. 17:44 And so a lot of folk were able to be buried 17:47 respectfully and properly, 17:49 but not necessarily knowing their names. 17:51 But just the skull? 17:52 Yeah. Very interesting. 17:54 It was interesting. 17:56 I thought it was a good thing 17:57 that the government allowed the people to do, 18:00 because it enabled closer to come to many families. 18:03 Yeah. 18:04 Now going back to the building day. 18:08 We have a photo of the opening of the building. 18:11 Yeah. Yeah. 18:12 And you're down there standing at the lowest level. 18:15 Yeah. 18:17 And you've got all these other people. 18:18 Some of them are whites, but most of them are not. 18:20 Yep. 18:22 And did you say it's a little guy was the one 18:24 who worked with you in the front row? 18:25 Yeah, the guy, not in the light suit, 18:27 but the one on his right hand side. 18:29 Yeah, the short one. Yeah. 18:30 So that's Santiza Kajubi. 18:32 He's a beautiful guy. He was a pastor. 18:34 And he came to work with me. 18:35 And I really appreciated his input. 18:39 And several years later, 18:41 we were back in Australia, he passed away, unfortunately. 18:44 And it was a sad, sad time for him and his family 18:49 and for all of us. 18:50 But you could see there the group, 18:52 there was some people, some expatriates there. 18:56 So one of the strengths I think about 18:58 running a program in places in tough places 19:01 is to get really good people around you 19:04 to actually bring the program forward. 19:06 So we brought people in from Sweden, from Australia. 19:11 Quite a lot of volunteers come in as volunteers, 19:13 so if anyone is interested 19:15 in offering their services as a volunteer. 19:17 Yeah. 19:19 There are great opportunities to get involved 19:21 and go and serve. 19:25 To ADRA's projects. 19:26 In an ADRA program somewhere, is highly valued. 19:30 Obviously, you've got to get to the right country, 19:32 and there has to be the right opportunity. 19:34 But there's just, it's a blessing for everybody. 19:38 You have to have schools? 19:40 Not always, not necessarily, if supervision is a good thing. 19:44 We were fortunate, we had a guy come 19:46 who was an engineer from Australia, 19:48 and he built a bridge over this river 19:52 where when the children would go to school, 19:55 that'd be fine. 19:56 And then while they're at school 19:57 there'd be a rainstorm in the mountains 20:00 and then by the time they got to go home, 20:02 the river was over their head, and many of them 20:03 would drown trying to get across. 20:05 Oh, no. 20:06 So this guy, the engineer, 20:09 he built a swing bridge across that, 20:12 and it made a lot of difference. 20:14 Yeah, I'm interested to listen to some of the projects 20:18 that you got involved with, 20:19 because being a practical person, 20:21 the child survival project, what was that all about? 20:25 So that was funded by USAID, 20:28 we were blessed there, we had 10, 20:31 12, 15 million US dollars 20:33 is offered to us over a period of time 20:36 for proposals that Bev and I wrote to get funding, 20:39 and this project was a USAID funded project. 20:42 And what did it found 20:43 is because AIDS was really exploding, 20:46 around 50% of the people in Uganda had AIDS of some, 20:51 at some level. 20:52 They were just starting or whatever, 20:55 they wouldn't all die. 20:56 But along with that, we identified that 21:00 there's in a certain geographic area 21:03 of about 50 to 80,000 people, 21:05 there was a, in every thousand babies 21:10 to their first birthday 120 would die. 21:14 Okay, so in Australia, we might have two, all right. 21:18 So we recognize that was a big problem. 21:21 So we designed a program, 21:24 which is very simple to actually educate the people 21:26 how they can solve their problem. 21:28 So one of the big foods in Uganda is matoke, 21:33 which is cooked banana. 21:35 So we organized this team, and we, one of the local men, 21:40 Israel was our leader, he did a fantastic job. 21:43 And so, it was his idea, his concept, actually. 21:46 He said, I'm going to teach these mothers 21:48 that the water they cook the banana in 21:51 is actually to be used for the baby to actually drink 21:55 for the first month. 21:57 And so that's what they did. 22:00 So in, after two years of running the program, 22:03 the government authorities contacted me and said, Barry, 22:06 we believe you are falsified. 22:09 The figures have been falsified about deaths in this area. 22:12 Because now the death rate has gone from 120 per 1,000 22:17 to less than 20 per 1,000, 22:19 since you've been running this project. 22:20 And we believe you're tricking us 22:23 to try and justify that the project is successful. 22:27 So we said, let's check it. 22:29 So we checked it, we found that it was right, 22:32 that we had dropped the rate that dramatically 22:35 just by a simple implementation, 22:37 intervention just like that. 22:39 In two years? In two years. 22:40 So the water that you cook the bananas 22:43 in was given to the babies? 22:44 Yep. And that stopped the diarrhea. 22:47 And it stopped all the other internal problems 22:50 that they were having, bacterial problems, 22:52 other problems they were having. 22:54 And so the babies were able to survive. 22:57 So who discovered that really? 22:59 It was a local guy 23:00 who was a medical person, medical guy. 23:02 Israel is a local guy, 23:04 and he said, "Barry, I think this is a winner. 23:05 We can do this." 23:06 I said, "Okay, I'll support you." 23:08 So we talked to some consultants 23:10 from America. 23:11 They said, "He's on the money. He's right." 23:13 And so he did a marvelous work. 23:16 So there was something that that came out of the bananas? 23:20 No, just the fact though, bananas had been boiled, yeah, 23:23 there would be some iron, 23:24 and some other elements that would help the baby, sure. 23:27 But it was the fact that it was purified water. 23:30 Ah! 23:32 Banana flavored. Yeah. 23:34 So many of these villages don't have, 23:38 if they had not considered things like sanitation. 23:41 So you would get the village here. 23:43 And just over there would be the village water supply, 23:47 and just near across there would be the toilet. 23:49 Yeah. 23:51 And so we had the toilets removed from the water supply. 23:54 And we got them from the water, 23:57 the boiled water from the bananas. 23:59 Yeah, we had the problem in Nepal 24:00 where there were no toilets, 24:03 but the areas where they used 24:04 were usually along the waterways. 24:06 Yeah. 24:07 And in rainy season, 24:08 there would be typhoid everywhere. 24:10 Yeah. Same issue, same issue. 24:12 So sometimes I found that in Uganda 24:15 was a matter of going to sitting down 24:17 under the mango tree where the village elders, 24:19 the tribe, senior women, and discussing their issues 24:23 and finding a solution 24:25 while you're there without actually 24:27 having to physically do anything. 24:29 And talk about opportunities that exists for change, 24:32 and then get them to implement it. 24:34 And that really gives you a buzz 24:37 when you see that and see how they implement 24:38 and see a change. 24:40 So, you know, you did the project in Botswana 24:42 with the gardens. 24:43 So I mean, was that fresh in your mind 24:45 to help these people do the same thing? 24:46 Yeah, it was. 24:48 So it was a matter of adapting 24:49 what the issues were now in Uganda, 24:51 that they were different than Botswana. 24:53 In Botswana the population levels 24:55 are much lower. 24:57 And so you're not going to get the problems 24:59 with sanitation issues. 25:00 And there, you know, 25:03 we were able to deal it that way. 25:05 Did they have problems with water generally in Uganda? 25:08 Yes, in some places. 25:10 They may have had a water source, 25:11 but were there a lot of places 25:13 that didn't really have good, good way of getting water? 25:16 Yeah, there's quite a lot of Uganda is dry. 25:19 So when you go further north toward Sudan, 25:21 it's quite dry. 25:22 So ADRA had a drilling rig. 25:24 We got a drilling rig organized. 25:26 And so we had a team that went around 25:27 and in really desperate situations, 25:30 we've put a bore down. 25:32 And so that was able to help alleviate it. 25:34 We didn't help everybody, but we were able to help some. 25:37 And say pretty one of those big... 25:38 Yeah, the big hand pump on it. Yeah. 25:40 And so this is only drilling how far down? 25:43 Mostly it wasn't too far, 25:44 it might have been 50 meters, 100 meters at most. 25:47 Not 500? Not 500. 25:50 Botswana was 500. That's right. 25:52 That was a long way down there. 25:54 And what about the pygmies? 25:55 There's something to do with you helping the pygmies. 25:57 We had a challenge, because a lot of the pygmies 26:02 that were in Uganda went to the Congo. 26:06 And then over time, a lot of them 26:08 were there fighting that was happening in the area. 26:11 A lot of them start to migrate back into Uganda. 26:14 And the Ugandan Government were quite concerned 26:16 because the pygmies 26:18 were going into national forests. 26:20 And they were killing all the monkeys 26:21 and eating them 26:23 and all this sort of stuff was happening. 26:24 So the government approached us and said, 26:27 "Look, we know you're active in the area as an NGO. 26:30 Could you do something with these pygmies?" 26:32 So we went and had meetings with them and talk to them. 26:35 And after a long, long, several discussions, 26:38 they agreed that they would relocate 26:40 outside the forest in the National Park area, 26:44 and we would set them up to give them 26:46 a change of lifestyle. 26:48 So we provided some goats. 26:50 And we provided mostly female goats, 26:55 and said, "You're only allowed to eat the males, 26:58 you're not allowed to eat any females." 27:00 And we taught them how to grow gardens 27:02 and put them in little houses 27:03 with tin roofs instead of thatch. 27:06 That'd be okay. 27:08 And so the pygmies started to live there. 27:11 There was a bit of resistance for a while, 27:13 but they settled eventually. 27:15 And so we helped them bridge the gap, 27:16 if you like, to a new life opportunity. 27:21 It had mixed success. 27:23 But the pygmies that were stable, 27:25 these are ones that didn't go walk about all the time, 27:28 they were actually successful. 27:29 But the families that would go back to, 27:33 to Zaire or to Goma 27:34 or to some of these other original bush places 27:37 in the Congo, that made it difficult 27:40 because they would just leave everything and go, 27:42 but those who stayed, they did have success. 27:45 Because those who went they wouldn't have 27:47 that constant income coming from these animals 27:51 and things they have to go and find their own food, 27:53 and they probably eat things 27:54 that were not going to be good for them. 27:55 That's right. 27:57 They're very nomadic in a way and that they, 27:58 they can sleep tomorrow in a different place 28:01 if they wanted. 28:02 Yeah, for them home is not a structure. 28:06 But we were trying to instill that in them 28:09 and some of them bought into that and they did. 28:13 So ADRA is continually looking at the needs in that 28:17 in that area for the people. 28:18 Yeah. 28:19 And basically, you were getting funds 28:22 to develop those activities that would help those people. 28:26 Yeah, ADRA, Australia were 28:28 right behind us funding that program. 28:30 Yeah. 28:31 And we had another challenge because the pygmies 28:35 grew marijuana professionally as well. 28:38 Oh, they had it there, too. 28:39 And so what would happen is you would get all, 28:42 a lot of the tourists would come for this 28:45 for their monthly supply. 28:47 And so, it was always a challenge of trying 28:51 to work through what the issues really are. 28:54 And so, of course, 28:56 the pygmies would be using marijuana as well. 28:58 And so, it was always a challenge 29:00 to be able to know 29:01 if you're talking to a guy who was really cohere 29:05 or what state he was in the day you were there. 29:07 So it was lots of challenges, made life interesting. 29:11 So it's not only in the Western world, 29:12 it's also in other, all over the world? 29:15 It's right across. Yeah. 29:16 I always thought it was only something 29:18 that grew wild in Nepal. 29:21 There in the Congo, you know, 29:24 you put in a plant, and within a couple of days, 29:26 it's right up, you know, 29:28 just perfect growing conditions. 29:29 You know, you mentioned you were involved 29:31 with building 90 schools, 29:33 but there would have been a lot of homeless children 29:37 and, you know, 29:39 schools are very important in educating. 29:41 So I can see that that was a, 29:43 that was a good thing that you endeavored to do, 29:45 because if you give the kid some hope and some learning, 29:49 they can progress from where they are. 29:52 Sorry. 29:53 It was very difficult because AIDS was now exploding. 29:57 And so all the NGOs were all on top of themselves 30:01 and what we could do for AIDS to help the orphans 30:04 that you're talking about, John. 30:05 Yeah. 30:06 And I would go visiting around in the villages. 30:08 And often I'd go to houses 30:11 where there'd be 10 or 20 small graves 30:14 about this long at the back of the houses 30:17 where the children had got, had AIDS and died. 30:20 So if a child lives to five or six, 30:23 they probably haven't got AIDS. 30:25 So probably a third of children are going to die from AIDS 30:30 if they're affected through the placenta 30:32 or at some stage during birth. 30:33 And so it's a tough thing. 30:35 So AIDS was now exploding. 30:37 We had all these children in need, 30:39 and you going to some villages 30:40 and certain reki and certain places in Uganda 30:44 where AIDS exploded. 30:46 That all the parents, 30:48 all the ones from 20 to 55 were all dead. 30:53 So grandpa and grandma were there 30:55 and children under 15. 30:58 And that was a really tough life. 31:00 Some families, there would be 31:03 six or eight or ten children, and no adult supervision. 31:07 And so, that was a big challenge 31:10 for these countries in Africa. 31:12 Very big challenge. 31:14 This Bugema College. 31:16 What is Bugema College? Bugema. 31:19 So Bugema College is, 31:22 it's the equivalent of a college start university, 31:26 a bit like we've got here at Avondale, 31:29 it's a bit like that. 31:30 So it eventually became a university 31:33 after we left Uganda. 31:35 So ADRA was very, very involved 31:37 in trying to upgrade some of the buildings there. 31:40 Sometimes we got funding, sometimes we didn't. 31:43 We did help them at the Bugema secondary school. 31:46 The ADRA office in Sweden 31:51 funded a big program there. 31:53 Rigmor Nyberg, 31:55 she did a wonderful job supporting that. 31:57 And so that school now have over 1000 students, 32:01 massive, massive operation. 32:03 So these, the numbers are huge. 32:06 So when we look at the population 32:08 now in Uganda, 32:10 it's pretty close to double from the time we were there. 32:12 When we were there, 32:13 it's about Australia in equivalent. 32:15 But now it's close to heading up 32:16 towards 50 million. 32:18 So that's and a lot of the population is young. 32:22 Yes, because there's certain age group, 32:24 there's no one there now. 32:25 That's right. They were all gone. 32:26 And then the older people are dying off. 32:28 So there was a big, there's a big refugee issues 32:30 going on there as well, wasn't there? 32:32 There is and it still continues. 32:33 So while we were there, 32:35 we were, the South Sudanese war began. 32:38 And so we had all the refugees flooding into Arua, 32:41 which is in the north of the country. 32:43 And so, we got involved 32:44 in establishing some programs there. 32:47 It was very tinny at the beginning. 32:48 In fact, it was pretty Joe average. 32:51 But after a while, the program was ramped up 32:54 and a lot of NGOs got involved. 32:55 And I think recently, in the last few years, 32:58 ADRA has been one of the lead organizations 33:00 there now, supporting them up in South Sudan. 33:03 So how do you feed these people, 33:05 you know, what sort of projects 33:06 did you develop to feed some of these people? 33:08 What happens is you have a lot of organizations 33:12 behind the scenes that provide food like 33:15 World Food Program, 33:17 and so we would tap in with them. 33:22 And World Food Program would provide the food. 33:25 We do the distribution and the management of it. 33:27 So that's how it works. 33:29 So we had that program going in the north there. 33:32 And then we had another program going in Karamoja. 33:36 Karamoja is in the north part up 33:39 with South Sudan and Kenya, 33:43 in that border up in there, right in the corner, 33:45 and Ethiopia up that way. 33:47 And so, we were very involved there, 33:49 because these people were running out of food 33:53 on a regular basis. 33:54 So we had a big feeding program there. 33:56 So what they would do is these people have cattle. 33:59 So the women will grow some maize or corn. 34:01 And then what would happen is, 34:06 they would take the cows away for a month, 34:10 they take them away with no food. 34:12 And so what they had was a sharp stick 34:14 about that long, like a knife and a cup, 34:18 they would stick that into the cow's neck, 34:20 get a cup of blood, and they would drink the blood. 34:23 And that's how they would survive 34:25 for quite some time away. 34:27 And so, when we got involved then we started to understand 34:31 the practices of how things went. 34:34 We understood that TB was out of control. 34:37 And so, and the TB was from the cattle, 34:41 they would drink the blood 34:42 and so the Karamojong tribe people would get it as well. 34:46 So there's all these complications, 34:48 all these factors floating around. 34:49 You're trying to actually resolve 34:51 some traditional practices, 34:54 because they're actually killing their own people. 34:56 So to sit down with the elders and talk that through 34:59 and get them to understand and then I'll check for TB, 35:03 which you can do, all those sort of things 35:05 are all part of some of the activities 35:07 that we supported. 35:09 So you had a project with Japan with their fortified biscuits? 35:13 Yeah, that's right, that was very good. 35:15 So ADRA, Japan helped us a lot with things like that. 35:19 And so the ADRA office in Japan, 35:22 they get a percentage of tax every year 35:25 is given to NGOs or in this case to ADRA. 35:29 It may be very small percent, 35:30 but it builds up to be quite a lot of money. 35:32 And so they sent us numerous containers 35:35 with fortified biscuits, 35:36 and these were so beneficial, 35:39 especially to groups like the Karamojong people, 35:41 some of these people. 35:43 Kept them alive, isn't it? Yeah, it really helped them. 35:46 We have some, we have a photo of a chief. 35:49 Yeah. He's from that tribe. 35:50 He's from Karamoja, there he is. 35:52 And he's an interesting guy. So he's a chief from Karamoja. 35:55 These are interesting people, they don't wear undergarments, 35:59 they just wear a sheet tied 36:00 with the knot on their shoulder. 36:02 So don't be surprised if everything is revealed. 36:07 So they, you'll see that he's got a little stool, 36:09 a little wooden stool. 36:10 Oh, I saw one of these. 36:12 And so, this is a bit unusual, this guy, 36:14 because usually they have a stool in one hand 36:16 and AK-47 in the other. 36:19 So the AK-47 is to actually keep the cattle thieves away 36:23 from their cattle. 36:25 So you get a lot of people stealing their cattle. 36:27 So that little stool, 36:29 he would sit down at this meeting, 36:30 there's regular meetings. 36:32 So that's his stool, he sits on all day. 36:34 Remember, sitting down 36:36 on his stool with no undergarments, 36:37 it's a bit interesting. 36:39 So when the women are working in the field, 36:42 again, with very little clothing, 36:45 with just a sheet tied up here, sometimes. 36:49 So it's really a different way that people live, 36:52 we need to respect that and understand that 36:55 that's why they're doing. 36:56 I remember, we went to the markets, 36:57 and I was delighted to go to the markets to see 37:00 what they would eat. 37:01 And to my surprise, I'm glad I don't eat these. 37:04 But there I could have got 37:06 the best barbecued rat on a skewer 37:08 that you could have ever found. 37:10 And so there they were. 37:12 Well, you know what? No, thank you. 37:13 Necessity sometimes people will do a lot of things. 37:16 That's right. Survival, John. 37:18 Survival. 37:20 You know, in 1994, 37:22 I'm sure the viewers 37:23 remember something happened in Rwanda. 37:25 And you were there, right, Barry? 37:26 Yeah. 37:27 And that, what we're going to talk about 37:29 may not be a really a pleasant thing. 37:32 But as I said earlier, it's a reality. 37:34 You live through that 37:35 and were involved in different aspects of it. 37:38 And I just want to talk a little bit about that. 37:42 Because, you know, 37:43 we live in a world that's changing very rapidly, 37:45 and we think this couldn't happen in a world. 37:48 Surely, it couldn't happen, but it did happen back then. 37:51 And maybe things will happen 37:53 that will not be very pleasant for us 37:55 in time ahead soon, yeah. 37:57 So just talk us a little bit in 1994 38:00 when you were there, what sort of... 38:02 There was a big conflict arose? 38:04 And tell us a little bit about that, 38:06 how that started and where it go? 38:07 So you had two tribes, 38:09 so you've got the Hutus and the Tutsis. 38:12 So the Hutus are generally a shorter, stouter, 38:14 bunch of people 38:16 that Tutsis are a taller group of people. 38:18 And what happened, 38:20 these people have been warring for many, many years. 38:22 It's not something just happened in five minutes. 38:23 Tribal wars? 38:24 Tribal wars for many, many years. 38:26 And so the Tutsis, many of them, 38:28 the taller ones had fled to Uganda. 38:31 And so they had stayed there for 10, 20 years or whatever. 38:34 I'm not sure of the time exactly, 38:36 but a long time. 38:37 And they had been there waiting for an opportunity to come back 38:41 to take over the Rwanda again. 38:45 So during that time, the government 38:48 who were now the Hutus had got a bit organized 38:54 and they had everybody registered, 38:55 and everybody home, 38:56 everybody's home in the country, 38:58 so they knew who you were, 38:59 and what tribe you belong to. 39:02 Which, when, I was gonna say, when we went to Zambia, 39:05 the first thing you asked someone was, 39:07 were they a Christian? 39:08 Or which church they went to actually? 39:10 What church you go to? 39:12 And then you say, what tribe are you from? 39:14 And they would all tell you what tribe they were from. 39:16 It was very, very important, the tribe they belong to. 39:19 It is important and in Rwanda, they set about this plan, 39:25 the Hutus set about plan to get rid of the Tutsis. 39:29 So if you're a Hutu, 39:30 and you're married to a Tutsi, you had to kill your spouse. 39:35 If you went to a church, 39:38 where you had Hutus and Tutsis, 39:41 the Hutus at the church had to kill the Tutsis, 39:44 regardless of the religion. 39:47 Same doesn't matter 39:48 if you're an Adventist or Muslim, 39:50 or a Baptist or Catholic or an Anglican or any religion, 39:55 the bloodline was much stronger than the belief. 39:58 That's right. 39:59 And so, then they set about taking over and killing. 40:03 So they would go to a house, 40:06 and they'd call the people by name, 40:08 they would bring them out. 40:10 And then there in front of the house 40:12 a lot of folk were executed. 40:15 And then what happened was, 40:17 the bodies were thrown in the river. 40:19 And they floated down the river 200 kilometers 40:21 until it got to Lake Victoria. 40:23 And that's when I got involved, 40:24 because I got a call from the US Ambassador saying, 40:28 "Barry, come in quick." 40:29 So we went in, and he told me what had happened, 40:31 that all these bodies... 40:35 We don't know the number, 40:36 excess of 100,000 had drifted down the river. 40:39 And we're now in Lake Victoria. 40:42 And it was an issue, the fish were eating the bodies 40:46 and all that sort of stuff and we had to claim that. 40:47 Many were washing up on the shores. 40:49 And so he asked me if ADRA could take a shoreline, 40:52 the section of the shoreline and gather the bodies. 40:55 How bigger the section? 40:57 About 20 kilometers. That's a big area. 40:58 Yeah, it was a big area. 41:00 And so, ADRA, Australia donated a tractor 41:02 and a trailer and so we got busy. 41:04 I got a team of people, we rig them up just like 41:07 what you see in with the COVID-19 thing 41:09 with all the gear and the gloves 41:11 and the boots and the mask and everything. 41:13 Our cook was in designated area, 41:15 she wasn't allowed to leave that area. 41:16 She had to stay and she wasn't allowed 41:18 to touch anybody. 41:19 She was had to pass the food under a barrier, 41:22 so that we kept distance. 41:25 You understood the risk of disease. 41:26 Cholera was exploding. 41:29 So we knew we had to be very, very fastidious in what we did. 41:33 So we got very organized. 41:35 And so we buried over 1000 people, 41:38 we collected from the lake and took them and buried them. 41:41 We got a photo of the lake, 41:44 and the bodies being brought in on one of your boats. 41:48 That's right. That's how we did. 41:49 I mean, that's a massive lake, it looks like the ocean. 41:52 It is big. 41:53 And the bodies would just float across down the river 41:57 and across the lake to Uganda. 41:59 It takes you 45 minutes to fly over that lake in a, 42:03 you know, it's a big plane. 42:05 And so it's a massive lake. 42:06 So you can see the bodies 42:08 that we've gathered them and wrapped them, 42:09 and then we would take them and bury them properly. 42:13 And here we are on one side. 42:15 Oh, there's you digging a hole with someone. 42:17 You can see our team there, all covered up and all busy. 42:23 And so it was not an easy thing to do. 42:25 How many days or weeks did you have to do this? 42:28 It was probably about a month we were doing that. 42:30 And during that time, 42:32 the things in Kigali, 42:37 the capital of Rwanda had changed. 42:39 By now, the Tutsis, 42:42 who many of them were in Uganda, 42:44 had moved back to Rwanda 42:47 and formed that supported the army. 42:50 And so now they were chasing the Hutus out. 42:53 So the Hutus... So it turned the other way? 42:54 It did. 42:56 So the Tutsis, where now the tall ones 42:58 were chasing the small ones. 42:59 And there's, they took over the airport 43:02 and everything, they can chase everybody 43:04 out of the main city. 43:05 This is after a lot of the city had been destroyed. 43:08 A lot of people have been killed, 43:11 numerous numbers, you know, lots of people. 43:14 And so then they fled. 43:16 And so they fled in all directions. 43:18 Most of them went to Goma which is in, was, is the Congo. 43:23 And that's on Lake Kivu. 43:25 And on their way there, 43:27 they'd come across people 43:28 and they'd continue their killings. 43:29 As they got to the border, 43:31 they were told to leave their machetes 43:34 and all the killing implements at the border. 43:37 Some did and some didn't, 43:39 you know these massive heaps 43:40 that you may have seen on the news 43:42 at the time of these machetes 43:43 that they were killing people with. 43:45 And the Adventist Church had a university there. 43:48 Were just near the border to Goma, 43:52 where these people, 43:53 all local people had come to shelter. 43:56 And then all of a sudden, 43:57 these militia came to do the killings. 44:00 And so they locked everybody in the rooms 44:03 and they said come out one day, 44:04 when as they came out, they just killed them. 44:06 So this was really tough. 44:08 We had some expatriates there, they managed to get away 44:10 and managed to get away from that place. 44:13 So this was not an easy time. 44:15 It was a very tough time. 44:16 We had a hospital in the area, that the guns, 44:18 the helicopters came with the gunships 44:21 and just mowed down the people, 44:22 just killed them, just slaughtered them. 44:24 So there was some terrible atrocities 44:26 that happened, no doubt about that. 44:28 So then, while that happened, just out of the blue, 44:32 I got a call from the General Conference, 44:34 saying, "Barry, we're in trouble. 44:37 We've got nobody leading the team in Goma. 44:42 And we've had 15 cars stolen from the ADRA office in Rwanda. 44:46 And there's a whole lot of confusion. 44:49 Can you go and build a field hospital 44:52 in the refugee camp, 44:54 1.5 million people now, and build a water supply 44:58 and organize the food distribution, 45:01 get involved in that." 45:02 So I said, "Give me 48 hours, send me $50,000. 45:05 And I'll go with 12 people and two trucks." 45:08 So that's what we did. 45:09 So two days later, we're on the border, 45:12 we got to the border at midnight, 45:14 we slept in the tracks. 45:15 The morning, I went to go through the border 45:17 with all the paperwork and everything. 45:18 And the guy said, 45:20 "You're not going through until you pay some money." 45:24 So I said to him, "I don't have money to pay, 45:27 you are not authorized to pay you any money. 45:29 So he wanted the bribe, see. 45:31 So I said, "We're about helping people. 45:35 This is God's business, it's not my business. 45:37 So just write your name down on a piece of paper, 45:40 and I'll talk to your leaders and see what we can do." 45:43 And then I went out. 45:44 So he contacted me about an hour later, 45:46 he said, "Go through." 45:48 So we managed to get through without anything. 45:50 But as we went through 20 kilometers out of Goma, 45:53 we started coming across just massive numbers of people. 45:59 As we look closely... 46:00 You mean dead? Now these are alive now. 46:02 These all walking somewhere, I don't know where to. 46:05 But this is an area where there had been a volcano. 46:07 So it's black basalt rock, 46:10 that it's just it's been there for many years. 46:13 And these people are walking on the road, 46:14 just nowhere to go trying to get a bit of wood 46:17 to build like a fire. 46:18 So as we got in further, 46:20 we started then coming across those that have passed away. 46:22 And so the low, 46:23 the road was littered with people, 46:26 meter or two meters apart, just bodies all the way. 46:29 And we were just horrified by what we saw. 46:32 And so, as we went in, you know, 46:35 it was pretty tough going to that to meet you. 46:38 So we went in, and we went 46:40 and introduced ourselves to the UN, 46:41 had a good talk with them. 46:43 And so we said to them, 46:45 we need to do something pretty quick about these 46:47 removing these bodies, 46:49 because cholera is going to just keep 46:51 on wiping everybody out. 46:53 And he said, "We don't know what to do." 46:56 So we said to them, "We'll have someone talk 46:59 to the leaders of the elders of the people from Rwanda." 47:05 And he said, "No, not really." 47:08 So I said, "Let's go and talk to them." 47:09 So we went over 47:10 and talk with a group of people. 47:12 And they said, because I'd said to them, 47:15 "Look, if they agree, 47:17 we could have a fire 47:18 and we could do what needs to be done." 47:21 And so the people, the elders from Rwanda said, 47:24 "No, we believe that if we're burnt, 47:26 we will go to hell." 47:28 So we went back reported to the UN, they said, 47:30 "All right, we're gonna bury them." 47:31 So the next day was Sabbath. 47:33 I was part of a group 47:35 where we buried 10,000 people that Sabbath. 47:37 It was a massive operation, 47:39 the US military were there, other NGOs. 47:42 And it was a sad, sad time to actually see what happened. 47:48 Now these people had died. 47:50 A lot of them without need, because they had, 47:54 they had been moved away from the water, and they... 47:58 Water was a problem. 48:00 And so, a lot of people died just for lack of water, 48:03 dehydration, and other causes as well. 48:06 So that was tough. 48:07 So then in we set the field hospital up, 48:09 we did all the things in the camp, 48:12 every night we'd bring 500 would die in the refugee camp, 48:15 we'd bring them out on sticks, 48:18 by the one side of the road, 48:19 and I was looking at life, 48:22 life can be pretty miserable. 48:23 So you've got all the dead lined up 48:25 to be identified who they are. 48:27 On the other side, they've got corn 48:28 and they're selling it for breakfast. 48:31 So when you see that, you think, how low can we go. 48:35 So it was pretty tough. 48:36 So you've got some pictures of the refugee camp 48:39 and your field hospital, 48:41 field hospital was down in the bottom corner 48:43 with the great green tents with ADRA on the tents, 48:48 and up at the top there's some of the water 48:50 that you got for them. 48:52 It's just one tank, and there are others as well. 48:54 And then the big, 48:56 big tent up in the top is the food, 48:58 the World Food Health Program has put in there. 49:00 And so then we were involved in that distribution as well. 49:02 And you look at that bottom photo of the area 49:05 with little tents that people were living in 49:08 and it's so barren. 49:10 It was tough place. 49:12 That was one of the better sites, 49:14 there were some worse than that. 49:15 You know, Barry, you were just talking 49:17 about this in a casual way. 49:18 But it was quite dangerous, wasn't it? 49:20 For you would have been quite dangerous 49:22 and then the people going in there? 49:25 It was, John. So on, we'd go then. 49:28 There's one guy, a local guy who's working with me. 49:31 And he's recognized an ADRA car from Rwanda. 49:34 He's in one of our cars, it's got a sticker on it. 49:36 And he said, "I'm gonna go and get it." 49:38 I said, "You don't." 49:40 So we had to watch carefully 49:42 and the guys that were managing the car opened their jacket, 49:45 and they had bombs all around here. 49:49 So there's a sort of things 49:51 that you just got to be aware of. 49:52 So you're in, you're in a dangerous spot. 49:54 You've got to not take risks. 49:56 So they've stolen your car, 49:58 but you weren't going to take it back? 49:59 No, didn't take it back. 50:01 You didn't want to get blown up? 50:02 I just want to go back, you know, 50:03 you've got a wife 50:05 and you got two children, right? 50:06 This is a real, 50:07 it's not sort of movie or make believe, 50:10 this is what's going on. 50:11 It's something that I am sure, many people would find 50:15 very hard to understand. 50:17 I do too, you know, as a Christian, you know, 50:20 it's one thing to survive, 50:21 but to kill in that way is very extraordinary, really. 50:26 But you know, does your wife was, 50:28 you know, were you in touch 50:30 with your wife while you're away, 50:31 or you just go away? 50:32 She doesn't know if you're coming back? 50:34 So what would happen was the US military 50:37 set up a base at Entebbe Airport, 50:40 they would fly me in on the Sunday evening, 50:43 and fly me back home to Kampala on the Friday afternoon. 50:45 Okay. 50:46 So I was just there for four days. 50:48 And I'll do the organizer, your coordination, 50:50 and make it all happen and then I'll fly back home. 50:53 And then after a few weeks, instead of going to Goma, 50:55 I was then flying to Kigali. 50:58 So I'm just thinking, now you're a Christian? 51:00 Where does your faith, you know, 51:02 when you see all these things, what strengthened you 51:07 to keep going and doing what you were doing? 51:08 Because, you know, you could have easily said, 51:10 I'm out of here, I'm going home. 51:12 Especially so when you see, 51:13 to see these Christians who are this tribe 51:16 killing those Christians who were that tribe. 51:17 Yeah. What's going on in your mind? 51:19 Well, I think one of the things 51:22 that I had to do was come to grips with death there. 51:28 I had to be ready to serve. 51:30 But also what happens if it goes pear-shaped? 51:33 What am I going to do? 51:35 So I had to connect pretty seriously 51:37 with God in that time. 51:39 And, but at the same time, not take risks. 51:42 I remember going out to an orphanage 51:43 where the kids run out of food, young boy, 51:46 14 years of old in a army suit 51:48 with an AK-47 thrusted in my chest 51:50 and said, "You go away, Mister? 51:52 I said, "I'm not going anywhere till you push that gun away, 51:54 I'm not going to tell you anything." 51:56 So you've got to have the presence of mind 51:57 to be able to do that. 51:58 If you cower and give him the power, 52:02 you know, he just has to pull the trigger and it's all over. 52:04 So God gave me that presence of mind 52:06 to be able to do that stuff. 52:08 And it was wonderful, really, 52:11 to see how God working on some 52:13 because not everybody was so fortunate. 52:15 I worked with a dentist, they came to the house, 52:18 brought him to the front door and shot him, 52:21 a missionary, nice family, 52:22 beautiful people from Sri Lanka. 52:26 You just, they're the things that you have to ask God, why? 52:30 We don't know all those answers. 52:32 We just have to be connected to God strong enough 52:36 to be able to say, "Yes, I believe in you. 52:40 But this is not fair." 52:43 You know, we're going to take a break here. 52:45 You know, we've been talking with Barry Chapman 52:47 who was the ADRA director in Uganda and Rwanda, 52:51 and he's been sharing with you some very personal things. 52:55 You know, most of us don't really want to talk about 52:58 the horrific things that we see in life. 53:01 But you know, as a Christian, 53:02 we know that truth is something 53:05 that helps others to understand what goes on. 53:08 You know, if you're wanting to support this ministry, 53:11 if you want to talk to us 53:12 or send us your ideas of you know 53:17 what you think about these program 53:19 and you'd like to be more involved, 53:21 then you can do so at this address. 53:27 If you would like to contact 3ABN Australia, 53:29 you may do so in the following ways. 53:31 You may write to 3ABN Australia, 53:33 PO Box 752, Morisset, 53:36 New South Wales 2264, Australia. 53:39 That's PO Box 752, Morisset, 53:43 New South Wales 2264, Australia. 53:46 Or you may call 02-4973-3456. 53:51 That's 02-4973-3456 53:55 from 8:30 am to 5 pm Monday to Thursday, 53:59 or 8:30 am to 12 pm Fridays, New South Wales time. 54:04 You may also email us at mail@3abnaustralia.org.au. 54:09 That's 54:11 mail@3abnaustralia.org.au. 54:17 Thank you for all you do to help us light the world 54:20 with the glory of God's truth. 54:24 I hope you've written those details down 54:26 because we do love to have people write to us. 54:29 And we're very grateful to those of you who do. 54:31 And let us know 54:33 how you're enjoying the programs 54:34 and to ask questions. 54:36 We're talking with Barry Chapman. 54:38 And, Barry, you mentioned just before 54:41 about this young boy with the gun, a militia. 54:46 What was the... 54:47 You know, there was a lot of problem 54:49 in with Rwanda and Uganda and things, 54:52 not just with AIDS but was what, you know, 54:55 the genocide in Rwanda. 54:56 There's places where there are no adults. 55:00 The parents are just wiped out and there's only children. 55:05 What impact that have on you? 55:07 So I was asked to go out 55:09 and have a look at an orphanage, 55:10 where that young fellows thrusted AK-47 into my chest. 55:14 And that orphan, it was run by some Adventist from Germany, 55:20 and they were, all the adults had fled or been killed. 55:24 And the oldest person there was 15. 55:26 There was 220, 55:27 I think maybe a few more children there, 55:29 rows and rows of cots and little bugs, and no food. 55:34 And so we were able to get support for them 55:37 and get the orphanage going. 55:39 So that was typical of thousands 55:42 of thousands of children around Rwanda at this time. 55:45 Their parents, nobody really knew 55:46 where they were. 55:48 And so, a lot of children had to go on. 55:51 And so... 55:52 I mean, how are they going to look after themselves, 55:54 if someone didn't come and start up 55:56 an orphanage for them? 55:57 One of the good things is Red Cross 55:59 has a really good program of connecting people 56:01 back to families. 56:03 And so a lot of children 56:04 were able to find their grandparents 56:06 or their uncles, their aunties, or something like that. 56:09 That's really helpful. 56:10 You know, Barry, you returned in 1994, 56:13 back to Australia, right? 56:14 Thirty years on now, 56:16 what's happened just in summary, 56:18 very quickly, 56:20 with the Barolong Vocational School, 56:25 how's ADRA, Uganda looked that. 56:27 You started to work there, right? 56:29 So what is happening now that work with, 56:31 what has happened to it? 56:33 In Rwanda. 56:34 Well, I think in Botswana, the success, in Uganda, 56:38 the ADRA program has grown, continue to grow. 56:42 They're doing marvelous things there, 56:43 the ADRA directors they have carried the work on, 56:46 and it's grown from strength to strength. 56:47 So they don't have just one director, 56:51 a worker, a motorbike and a car? 56:54 No, when I left there, we have a staff 56:55 of over 100-120 people and 14 cars. 56:59 So that's what ADRA build up from the time I was there. 57:01 What's happened 57:02 to the Adventist work because of ADRA, 57:04 the work of ADRA from the Adventist Church? 57:06 Well, I think, it's complementing it. 57:09 I think it's an opening which 57:11 and that we see that around the world that 57:13 is satisfying the needs of people. 57:15 And as a result, people will be drawn towards Christ. 57:19 Because you're doing something practical. 57:20 And in each area, you have to do 57:22 what satisfies that area. 57:24 You know, Barry, we've come to the end of the program. 57:26 I want to thank you for coming on, 57:27 sharing something that 57:29 I didn't know about and never heard. 57:30 And I'm sure, a lot of viewers haven't either. 57:32 But we're glad that you came on, 57:34 because the truth of the Word of God 57:36 will continue to grow in Africa 57:38 as we do more work to help people. 57:40 So until next time, may God richly bless you. 57:43 And thank you for joining us. |
Revised 2020-10-04