Participants:
Series Code: NOW
Program Code: NOW210031S
|
00:15 This is 3ABN Now with John and Rosemary Malkiewycz.
00:21 Hello and welcome to our program today. 00:24 We're really glad that you have joined us 00:25 for another 3ABN Now. 00:28 We have some very special guests today 00:32 who are coming to us from the other side of the world 00:35 via Skype. And we really thank God for this technology, 00:39 don't we? Because it makes us accessible 00:43 or gives us guests who are accessible 00:45 from all around the world. And it really makes it enjoyable 00:49 because we can talk about all different topics 00:51 with different people. And today we have with us 00:55 Pr. James and Rise Rafferty. 00:59 Welcome to 3ABN Australia! 01:03 Good to be here. Thank you. 01:06 Now we've had James as a guest in our home before 01:09 a few years ago, and this is the first time we've actually met 01:14 Rise so it's really good to meet you. 01:16 Thank you so much. Glad we can be in your home today. 01:22 It's good to be with you John and Rosemary, 01:26 really good. So they're from California. 01:28 We're going to speak on a very important topic 01:30 and it's about relationships. 01:33 So if you are interested in relationships... 01:36 maybe you are having difficulties or you know someone 01:39 who is, I'm sure that today you will have some answers 01:44 that will help you in how to sort out these relationships, 01:48 these dysfunctional things that are happening. 01:51 So stay tuned because we have some really good 01:54 information from the Rafferty's. 01:56 Now John, you have a Bible verse? 01:58 I've got a Bible text that James has chosen. 02:00 It's found in II Corinthians chapter 5 and verse 18. 02:05 And I would encourage you that take time to read your Bible 02:09 because Jesus has an answer for a lot of those relationship 02:12 questions that you may have. 02:14 But you've gotta take time to read. 02:16 James has chosen this text and it says: 02:18 "And all things are of God 02:20 who hath reconciled us to Himself 02:23 by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry 02:26 of reconciliation. " Now James, that's a very important 02:29 text, so do you want to enlarge upon that for us? 02:34 Yeah, sure. So the text was chosen 02:39 because we're talking about relationships 02:41 and relationships are under attack today. 02:43 And one of the ways that we can find relationships 02:48 or find reconciliation in relationships 02:50 is to look at our relationship with God. 02:54 Once we have a relationship with God 02:57 we're going to have the power and the grace, the strength, 03:00 the courage, the wisdom 03:02 to navigate earthly relationships. 03:04 So I like to say it this way: 03:06 once we have our vertical relationship on track 03:10 then we can navigate our horizontal relationships 03:14 with human beings. 03:15 That's right. Very, very true. 03:18 Now Rise, you've chosen I Corinthians 10 verse 13 03:22 which I'm going to read. And the Bible says: 03:26 "There hath no temptation taken you 03:29 but such as is common to man. 03:31 But God is faithful who will not suffer you 03:35 to be tempted above that you are able 03:38 but will with the temptation also, make a way to escape 03:42 that you may be able to bear it. " 03:45 So why have you chosen that particular verse? 03:50 Well, like James said relationships are under attack. 03:54 And because they're under attack and we are weak human beings 03:59 there are times when we succumb, we weaken 04:01 and we experience relational failure. 04:04 We experience temptation. 04:06 And there are times when we feel all alone 04:08 and isolated in our temptation and we dare not breathe it 04:11 to anyone... even to God. 04:14 And yet we need to remember that there's no temptation 04:17 but that is common, right? We're all human beings 04:21 and so that's what gives me the courage even today 04:23 to come and sit here before you: to know that there are... 04:26 I have brothers and sisters who are struggling 04:30 maybe with some things that I have struggled with. 04:32 And at the same time, my experience with my own failures 04:37 has led me to be so convinced that God is faithful 04:42 in spite of that. And His faithfulness 04:45 toward me has enabled me to overcome 04:48 and shown me a way of escape. 04:50 And we're just hoping and praying that this program 04:53 today will be a marker, an avenue 04:58 helping people to see what that way is. 05:01 Excellent! That's really good. 05:03 Now, James, we want to know a little bit about your 05:07 background so any viewers who don't know who you both are 05:11 will be able to get a little bit of an idea of who you are. 05:17 Sure. So I was raised in England. 05:21 I was born in the states but raised in England. 05:24 My mom is Irish. 05:25 And she raised us there for the first part of our lives. 05:29 So about 1 years old till I was 11 I was raised in England 05:33 in a Catholic home. So I was raised Roman Catholic. 05:35 Again, my mom is Irish. 05:37 We moved to the states when I was 11. 05:39 My sister and I were 11 'cause we are twins. 05:42 And we moved from place to place. We lived in a couple 05:46 different places and ended up landing in Spokane, Washington. 05:49 And that's where at 21 years of age 05:52 I surrendered my heart to the Lord 05:54 and asked Jesus Christ to be my personal Savior. 05:57 And in doing that I found myself going to 06:00 different churches: Calvary Chapel, Pentecostal church. 06:03 Just kind of hungry for the Word of God. 06:06 And eventually my sister con- nected with the Adventist church 06:09 which I thought, of course, was kind of like a cult. 06:12 You know, they go to church on the wrong day: Saturday. 06:15 They don't eat meat. They just have these weird 06:19 you know things that they do. 06:21 And so I started studying with Adventists 06:23 to get my sister out of the Adventist church. 06:26 And my mom was helping me. I had a couple other people 06:28 that were helping me. But despite the influence of 06:32 my mother and the pastor of the Calvary Chapel church 06:34 and some friends that were going to the Pentecostal church 06:37 the Bible was able to actually, overrule all of that 06:43 and the Word of God brought me in 06:46 to the Adventist church. 06:48 Even though my motives and everything else was against it 06:50 the Word of God was more powerful. 06:51 And that's been the testimony of my life: 06:53 that the Word of God is powerful 06:56 and it can transform us and it can re-direct us 06:59 and it can change our motives 07:01 and it can give us new life and new direction. 07:03 So that basically led me into ministry. I almost 07:07 immediately started doing Bible studies 07:09 and for the last 37 years I've been involved in full-time 07:13 ministry. And I'm now working with 3ABN 07:17 in the U.S. as Director of Discipleship Ministry. 07:21 Hmm! And it's really great to know that you are part 07:25 of the 3ABN family together 07:27 because it's a great relation- ship within that family. 07:31 We ARE family. 07:32 Amen. So it's fantastic! 07:35 Rise, give us some of your background. 07:40 So I was born and raised in Loma Linda, California, 07:42 which is kind of an Adventist hub. 07:45 And so there were so many blessings that I experienced 07:49 being born and raised there. 07:50 Loma Linda is a blue zone and so there is a lot of emphasis 07:54 on wholeness, on health. 07:57 We have a medical school there, dental school. Huge hospital 08:01 etc. so I was raised under that umbrella. 08:04 Probably took it for granted. 08:05 Going to church every week definitely was a cultural thing. 08:08 Wasn't always a believer in terms of an experiential 08:13 you know faith... walking with Christ. 08:15 But God thankfully woke me up and touched my heart 08:20 as a young college student. And from that point on 08:24 I have been so grateful for His presence in my life. 08:28 He led me to a book early on in my Christian experience. 08:32 Several books. I love to read, and just like James 08:35 the Word has been a powerful, formative influence 08:38 in shaping the direction of my life. 08:41 And one of the books I read was called Healthy, Happy, Holy. 08:44 And it laid a foundation for what I still so fully believe in 08:50 and that is that that was God's ultimate desire 08:52 and that those three aspects: healthy, happiness, holiness 08:58 they're intertwined. 08:59 We kind of look at holiness as something that 09:01 you know out there, esoteric, not tangible or fun. 09:05 But in reality that full wholeness picture 09:10 yeah, just for me is so beautiful 09:12 and I believe that it's what the world needs. Amen. 09:14 Hmm. So you are a health professional? 09:18 Yes. I'm a registered dietitian 09:21 and I enjoy working one-on-one with patients. 09:25 I do classes; I love teaching classes. I have done 09:31 CHIP classes before which I thoroughly enjoyed. 09:33 And now working part-time with 3ABN 09:35 I have the privilege of doing health education 09:39 and promotion through media. 09:41 Excellent... that's excellent! 09:44 I just want to know how you two met. 09:46 Come from different places. Tell us a little bit about that. 09:51 Well, it's an interesting story. 09:54 Actually, I was her teacher 09:56 so when we started doing ministry 09:58 we had a little two-week school that we did 10:01 in addition to our Camp Meetings and other seminars. 10:05 And the school is called Steadfast Bible Study School. 10:08 And Rise attended that with her mom. 10:10 And my life had been so transformed by the Bible 10:14 and learning how to study the Bible 10:16 that I would teach that class: How to Study the Bible. 10:18 And I would teach people how to compare scripture 10:21 with scripture and use a Strong's Concordance 10:23 and dig into the Greek and the Hebrew and prophecy. 10:25 And so Rise was my student. 10:27 Now she was there with another guy and so 10:30 I was thinking she had a boyfriend. 10:32 And I was looking to get married at that time. 10:34 I thought God wanted me to be married. 10:36 But I wasn't looking at Rise. 10:37 But my associate was, and he got all the information 10:41 on Rise. And then providentially we had a talk 10:45 and he basically told me: "This is going to be 10:47 your future wife and you need to pursue her earnestly. " 10:51 Which I did! 10:53 And Rise was really amazed. 10:56 But it was kind of an answer to her prayer 10:59 and she can tell you a little bit about that. 11:01 A) I was not with another guy... I was with my mom. 11:05 But there was a guy there at the school that I had gone 11:11 to school with. He actually had told me about this Bible School. 11:13 He was my friend and we did hang out. 11:16 Just wanted to make that little clarification. 11:18 So... but... yeah... 11:23 To make a long story short 11:25 God really convicted me in my Christian experience 11:28 actually there at the school about the way I had been 11:32 engaging in relationships 11:34 and that that was not His perfect will for me. 11:38 That the worldly way of dating is one thing and He had 11:41 something better. And I was really convicted about that. 11:44 It was very difficult for me to surrender that part of my life 11:48 to Him but I did. 11:49 And some of the words that I remember praying 11:53 were: "Lord, I'm willing to surrender this to You 11:56 and not engage any more in this worldly way of dating 11:59 that I've been doing for however long. 12:02 And the next person that You bring into my life 12:06 I will know 'cause it's going to be with the intention 12:09 for marriage. But will You design the relationship to be 12:12 directed and Your ultimate purpose for this. " 12:15 And so when James wrote to me 12:17 it was very unnerving but at the same time 12:20 I was earnestly praying for God's will in my life 12:23 and I had just prayed this prayer. And so some of the words 12:26 he used like: "I'm lining up with God's will 12:28 for us to be married. " He was stating his intention. 12:31 He wasn't saying "I want you to marry me. " 12:32 I wrote him back and I said: "I don't even know you. " 12:35 You know, type of thing? 12:38 But in spite of that, God's blessing on the intentionality 12:44 and I loved that. I was like: "Wow, that took a lot of guts 12:46 for him to be so intentional with me from the get-go 12:49 so I would know where he... what his intentions were. " 12:53 I had a similar thing. 12:56 When John first rang me the very first time 13:01 we spoke basically on the phone. 13:04 We'd only met a number of months before one time. 13:08 And he phoned me late one night 13:12 Just when I was coming in the door from being out 13:14 the phone was ringing. 13:16 I answered the phone and I thought he was asking me... 13:20 He said: "I don't know how to say this. " 13:22 And I'm thinking: "Well just ask me! " 13:24 Because I had a calendar with all these singing 13:28 appointments on it, OK? 13:32 And I thought: "Yeah, well which church? 13:34 What time? What Sabbath? " You know? 13:36 And he said: "I'm by myself with my two children 13:39 and I know you're by yourself with two children. 13:41 Maybe we can get together some time? " 13:43 And I'm going: "What? " 13:44 And then he said: 13:46 "If God called you to the mission field, would you go? " 13:51 And I had just been at a friend's place 13:54 doing some music, and he was going to South Africa 13:57 to sing at the Camp Meeting there and he said: 13:59 "You guys should all come too. " 14:00 And I said: "Oh, that would be fantastic! 14:02 I always wanted to go to Africa. " 14:03 And I said: "Well, I was just having this conversation 14:06 with this friend of mine, and going to South Africa 14:10 and things. I'd love to go and do something 14:12 for God overseas. " And John said: 14:14 "Well, I might be called to Uganda 14:18 or somewhere in Africa. " And he said: "Would that do? " 14:21 And I'm going: "Who is this guy? " 14:24 I don't know him and he's asking me if I'd go with him 14:27 to some place as a missionary? 14:30 So it was a similar... It worked! It worked! Yes. 14:34 And we've been together... Yeah, we had our... 14:37 we've had our 29th anniversary now. 14:40 By the way, how long have you been married? 14:42 And how many children do you have? 14:46 We've been married for 32 years this September 14:49 and we have two adult children, a girl and a boy. 14:52 Hmm... very good. Umm... excellent. 14:56 I'm just amazed that there was just this little similarity 14:59 going on there. 15:01 Now we're talking about healthy home relationships today. 15:06 Would you like to start taking us through that? 15:10 Well basically what we learned as Christians 15:15 is that the Bible and religion 15:18 is really all about relationship. 15:21 You go all the way back to the Garden of Eden 15:23 and you find that God had this relationship with Adam 15:27 and Eve and He would meet with them in the cool of the evening. 15:29 Every day He would come and meet with them. 15:31 And then He had a special day. We understand that 15:33 to be the seventh-day Sabbath that was set aside 15:37 and God spent the whole day with Adam and Eve on the Sabbath. 15:40 It was a special time of worship and engagement. 15:43 And that relationship was the foundation of our destiny, 15:48 of the image in which we were created. 15:50 We were created as relational beings. 15:54 And so relationship is foundation and therefore 15:58 it has been attacked by Satan. 16:00 Satan has attacked first of all the relationship with God 16:03 and secondly our relationship with one another. 16:07 Immediately after Adam and Eve sinned 16:09 their relationship broke apart. 16:11 You know, Adam started blaming Eve; 16:14 Eve started blaming the serpent. 16:15 They were blaming each other... they were even blaming God. 16:17 And so we find in the Bible in a couple key verses here 16:21 that God... the restoration of humanity 16:24 is the restoration of relationship with God. 16:28 Jesus says in John 17 verse 3 16:30 "This is life eternal: 16:32 that they might know Thee - the only true God - 16:34 and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. " 16:36 And then again we read in the very last book of Revelation 16:40 the very last church of Revelation 16:42 which takes us down to the very end of time 16:44 we read about Christ and His relationship 16:49 with the Laodicean church. 16:51 The Laodicean church is the epitome of a religious 16:56 organization that feels rich and increased with goods 17:00 and doesn't need anything. In other words, 17:02 they've got their doctrines all set up. 17:03 They've got their dogma figured out. 17:06 They've got all their forms and their ceremonies. 17:09 But Jesus Christ is pictured standing outside the door. 17:13 In other words, relationship with Jesus is missing 17:17 and He's knocking on the door. He wants to come in; 17:20 He wants to sup with us individually. 17:23 He wants to be part of our life. 17:26 Not just something we do once a week... 17:28 a set of rules that we ascribe to. 17:32 He wants to actually fill us with His Spirit, 17:35 walk with us, talk with us. 17:36 Abide in us... John chapter 15. 17:39 So a relationship with Jesus is foundational to relationship 17:43 with others. And God wants us to have a good healthy relationship 17:47 with Him based on love, based on respect, 17:51 based on understanding, 17:53 based on you know this empathy. 17:57 Now, there are a lot of people in the world 18:00 who have these good relationships horizontally 18:05 even though they may not have them vertically. 18:06 In other words, there are people 18:08 in the world who don't necessarily know God 18:11 or follow God but the principles of God's kingdom 18:15 are manifest in them. They love; they have 18:18 the spirit of respect and understanding and empathy 18:22 and all the things that are good for a relationship. 18:24 And then there are people like us - Christians - 18:28 who find all of those principles... Rise and I come 18:31 from very dysfunctional backgrounds. 18:33 Single-parent homes; a lot of dysfunction taking place. 18:37 And we found - discovered - how to have healthy relationships 18:43 through the principles of the Bible. 18:45 So there are people who for some reason 18:48 the Biblical principles kind of are there even though 18:50 they may not be Christians. And then there are others of us 18:52 who, yeah, we were kind of raised Christian 18:54 etc. but we didn't really understand the principles. 18:56 Our parents were dysfunctional in their relationships. 18:59 We went to the Bible and we discovered these principles 19:01 and tonight we want to really hone in 19:04 on the significance of these principles - 19:06 how important they are - because we're told 19:09 that failing relationships according to Matthew chapter 24 19:13 is one of the signs of the times. 19:15 We're told that there are going to be... 19:17 "Love is going to wax cold" we are told in Matthew 24. 19:20 Relationships there where there are good servants 19:23 and evil servants, and the evil servants are smiting 19:26 the good servants. There's failure of relationship. 19:29 And then in the ten virgins parable of Matthew 25 19:32 which leans on 24 we are told that there's wise virgins 19:35 and foolish virgins and there's dysfunction taking place 19:39 between the two. Only God can heal 19:42 our relationships with others 19:45 through a vertical relationship with Him. 19:48 Very very true, and in John 17 verse 3 about 19:52 eternal life is knowing God 19:56 and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. 19:58 That is so central to life 20:01 because that's eternal life that's involving. 20:03 That's all to do with a relationship with God. 20:06 It's interesting that you said that in Revelation 3 20:10 Jesus is pictured being outside the door. 20:15 As not just outside the door of the heart 20:18 of the individual and it's an individual salvation. 20:21 It's actually... A lot of the time it's outside the door 20:25 of the church. Umm. The church is going on doing 20:28 all of its things so they've kept Jesus outside. 20:32 A lot of the time I hear: "Lord, join us in our worship" 20:35 and I'm thinking: "What? Don't you know WHO 20:38 you're worshiping? 20:39 You're here to worship God not just to worship 20:42 and ask God to be a participant with you. 20:45 You're here to worship Him. " 20:47 And we've got to get back to that idea. 20:50 Just going back to the Bible is very clear 20:52 that God had intended when He made Adam and Eve - 20:55 the first people on this planet - 20:59 it was His intention that that relationship should have been 21:02 perfect and it should have been perfect with Him. 21:06 But because of the evil that was put upon this earth 21:10 through Satan, we can see that he was pulling the relationships 21:14 apart. Two institutions in the Bible - marriage 21:17 and the Sabbath - are the two institutions that are being 21:20 attacked now by Satan. To destroy marriage - 21:23 to destroy that normal, happy relationship between couples - 21:26 and to take away the relationship with God. 21:29 So when we base that on what we are talking about today 21:32 we've got to understand that God wants to bring us back 21:35 to that same relationship that He had intended for us 21:38 at the very beginning. 21:40 Um-hmm. Very true. 21:44 Good. So relational failure is a sign of the times 21:48 and as you were saying we need to connect with God. 21:52 We need to let Him into our churches; 21:53 we need to let Him into our hearts 21:55 in order to renew relationships not only with God 21:59 but with each other. That's what we're suggesting. 22:02 Now we know that people can have relationships outside of knowing 22:05 God, but we know that the reason for that is because 22:07 it is still the Spirit of God 22:09 that's bringing in the principles of love, 22:12 the principles of respect, of understanding 22:14 of empathy that are the bedrock of Christian relationships. 22:18 So relational failure is what we're facing today 22:20 in every area of life: 22:23 individually, in the home, in the church, in the community, 22:27 in the country, and in the world. 22:30 Hmm. That's right. 22:32 And so can you mention what some of those 22:36 relational failures are specifically? 22:40 Things like... Yes, Rise. 22:45 Well I just was going to use the word disconnect. 22:47 I think that's a word probably that we... may not be used 22:50 quite often. We don't feel connected to each other 22:54 or we feel disconnected. And it's so amazing 22:56 how God's design was for us to experience that connection 23:02 with Him, right? No walls between us and Him. 23:05 No closed door between us and Him. 23:07 We were to be connected with Him and experiencing intimacy 23:11 with Him and the same thing we would experience in 23:13 a marriage relationship. 23:14 So that's the relationship that we want to focus in on. 23:18 That there can be relational failure even within the confines 23:22 of what God designed for there to be total intimacy. 23:26 And there can be a wall and a closed-door 23:28 even between marriage partners. 23:30 We hear that sometimes how people feel like they're married 23:33 "to a stranger. " Or they feel isolated or lonely 23:35 even within their marriage. 23:36 And again, I was thinking about that picture of Christ 23:40 on the other side of the door. 23:41 Right? That closed-door rather than this beautiful picture 23:45 of intimacy and transparency and nothing between us. 23:49 And I think that we crave that level of intimacy. 23:52 But there are a lot of things that fight against that 23:54 in our own psyches as well as in the world. 23:57 So we come "baggaged" like James mentioned. 24:00 You know, we entered into a relationship with... 24:03 from a dysfunctional background which meant that 24:06 we didn't know how to do relationships perfectly. 24:09 You know, we definitely loved each other, 24:11 committed to each other. We really believed that it was 24:14 God's design and blessing for us to be together. 24:17 But there were still a lot of things underneath all those 24:20 onion peelings, right? in our own hearts and lives 24:23 that maybe we didn't even realize were still there 24:25 and that we were vulnerable to. 24:27 So through our own marital experience 24:31 we have experienced relational failure. 24:34 And probably the one that stands out for us the biggest 24:37 and had the biggest impact on our marriage 24:40 in terms of causing pain and yet at the same time providing 24:46 a catapult from which we grew 24:49 and/or definitely experienced an even greater level 24:53 of intimacy and connection with each other 24:55 and that was what is commonly referred to 24:59 as maybe emotional affairs or emotional unfaithfulness. 25:04 Umm! 25:05 I think I've seen you refer to it before 25:11 as unauthorized emotional attachment? 25:16 And actually, it can be anything. 25:18 It can be a thing; it can be a job; 25:20 it can be a sport. 25:23 It can be a person... it can be different things 25:26 where the person actually... the spouse takes their 25:30 emotional relationship away from their spouse 25:35 and they put it onto something else. 25:38 Doesn't necessarily have to be a person. It can be 25:40 something that's not tangible 25:44 but which becomes more important to them. 25:49 Yeah, I think that's a really good point, Rosemary, 25:52 because it's the one with another person that becomes 25:57 the most painful probably in a relationship 25:59 because it feels so defiling. 26:01 Yet a lot of times I think what precludes 26:04 an emotional one with a person 26:07 is probably one of the partners is attached 26:11 or receiving emotional support 26:14 from like you said. Maybe it's their job. 26:16 I know James... I felt James... Well he is naturally 26:20 a workaholic, right? So finding so much support 26:23 and investment and almost feeling isolated 26:26 from him because that's where he is being fulfilled. 26:31 Right? And when you feel isolated 26:33 from that within your marriage 26:35 yeah, you're right... that's painful. 26:38 Unhealthy. 26:40 Yeah, that's right. 26:42 So we'll talk a bit later about some of the situation 26:46 and the way that you found relief. 26:52 You found reconciliation or whatever you were needing 26:56 in that situation. We can talk about that now 26:58 or later. Which would you like to do? 27:01 Let's go for it. 27:04 OK... take it. 27:07 So I think... Well for James and I 27:11 something that we realized when we were on the healing 27:14 process that we learned, right? So once this took place 27:18 and it became open in our relationship 27:22 because there was definitely a period of secrecy... 27:24 Thankfully it wasn't a long period of time of secrecy 27:28 because I think that can make it even worse 27:32 potentially... the amount of time. 27:33 However, once we embarked on that journey of healing 27:38 there were a lot of things that we learned 27:40 that were vital for reconstruction. 27:43 We learned about the concept of walls and windows. 27:46 It was an analogy that a woman who wrote 27:49 a book entitled Not Just Friends. 27:51 She used this analogy in which the walls and windows 27:54 symbolized boundaries, symbolized where there was 27:58 transparency, symbolized where there were greater levels 28:01 of intimacy and how in a marriage 28:02 we were to have no walls and windows between us. 28:05 We live in the same house. We co-habitate, right? 28:07 within the same dwelling 28:09 and everyone else is on the outside. 28:10 And this is where we experience intimacy 28:13 and love and safe. We feel safe with each other 28:17 completely so that we can be completely vulnerable. 28:20 And no one else is allowed except for both of us 28:23 knowing it. Now when you have an emotional affair 28:26 or it could be called something else 28:29 then usually you are building... you are remodeling your home. 28:33 You are building up a wall between you and your spouse 28:35 and you've constructed an open area between you 28:38 and another person. And unfortunately this can take 28:41 place even in a really healthy marriage. 28:43 Sometimes what we read was that it's not just 28:45 "Oh you have a bad marriage" and so someone goes out. 28:48 Or: "Oh, your partner's the pits" 28:50 and that's why you strayed away. 28:52 It's because usually you don't have the boundaries 28:55 that you really need. Those walls and windows. 28:58 You weren't checking them and they weren't secure. 29:00 And all of a sudden you started building something 29:02 with someone else in which there was communication. 29:05 So it can begin very innocently. 29:08 It can begin with very good intentions even. 29:11 It can begin at work... some- one that you see consistently. 29:14 That's typically what it is 29:16 and where we probably need to be really aware of healthy 29:18 boundaries is when we're associating with someone 29:21 of the opposite sex on a consistent basis. 29:24 And then what are we communicating with them? 29:27 Right? Because when the communication starts becoming 29:30 more and more open 29:31 and more and more vulnerable and more and more emotional 29:34 and real then that's when you... Like I said 29:39 even unbeknownst to you you're reconstructing your home. 29:43 You're opening a doorway and a window 29:47 or whatever been you and another individual 29:49 and your spouse isn't in that same room. 29:52 Umm. So that gets really dangerous. 29:55 And the second part that starts entering in 29:58 is secrecy. You know, maybe initially 30:02 you communicate with your spouse about it but then 30:04 after a while, you don't. 30:06 And it becomes more and more... And that secrecy is what really 30:10 slicks up the slippery slope, right? 30:13 You've built a wall between you and your spouse. 30:17 And the most powerful way of healing 30:21 from something like this 30:23 is to do the tough work of remodeling. 30:25 And whenever you hear people are remodeling their home 30:27 they always say: "Oh remodeling's so much harder 30:29 than starting from scratch. " Yes. 30:31 So it's hard but it's so worth... so worth it. 30:38 And sometimes using that analogy of the remodel 30:43 sometimes the house has to be remodeled because 30:46 the plumbing fixtures that you originally used 30:49 weren't that great or the wall 30:51 wasn't really that straight to begin with. 30:53 You know, and so we started with a foundation 30:57 that had some areas that probably needed to be 30:59 redone anyway. And every one of us 31:02 you know... all relationships are like that. 31:05 One of the most difficult things for me, and I think 31:08 for men, is to recognize that: 31:11 that we aren't perfect, that marriages aren't complete, 31:14 they're not perfect. That we can grow, that we can learn, 31:17 and that we may need to do some remodeling 31:20 and we need to be open to that 31:21 and willing to recognize 31:26 and be responsible perhaps for the entire relationship 31:30 rather than shifting the blame. 31:32 Adam's fall caused him to natur- ally want to shift the blame 31:36 to the woman. And of course the woman followed suit 31:39 and shifted the blame to the serpent. 31:41 And we naturally tend to do that. 31:44 Jesus came to restore the relationship 31:49 between man and God and man and each other. 31:51 And He did that by taking full responsibility 31:55 for something that He wasn't even responsible for. 31:57 And that is what it means to be like Christ. 32:01 It's to take responsibility and men are called to do that. 32:05 We're called to be the head and take responsibility 32:08 even if we don't feel like we're responsible 32:10 and to do whatever we can to try to heal relationships. 32:15 And that's beautiful. I think... sorry... 32:19 so foundational to our healing process. 32:22 And that it is the... go ahead... 32:27 OK. I was just going to say that James taking accountability, 32:32 me taking accountability, acknowledging personal failure 32:36 has to be foundational to the work of reconstruction 32:41 that we were just talking about. 32:43 You need that level of humility. 32:45 I was just going to say before 32:47 that when you're remodeling 32:50 often you have a greater mess when you start tearing 32:54 things down to rebuild. Right. Yeah. 32:58 And so things can get very messy before you get 33:01 to the point of being able to do the new work: 33:04 build a new wall, put in a new door or whatever. 33:09 And it only gets cleaned up once you've done that new 33:14 section or torn down a wall that's been built up. 33:17 You then clean up and make everything clean. 33:21 So sometimes it gets a bit messy 33:23 until you're actually getting to the point of everything 33:27 being fixed up and then you start to clean. 33:29 I was also going to make a comment 33:32 on the emotional relationship that you can end up having 33:36 with another person or as the word used 33:40 unauthorized person 33:42 that often if you are feeling lonely in your relationship 33:47 with your spouse or neglected in some way 33:51 or there's just something not quite working there 33:55 if you start to talk to another person - 33:58 especially someone of the opposite sex - 34:02 you can be in a position where that person might be 34:06 the sort of person who says: 34:09 "Oh, look... I understand. 34:12 You're such a wonderful person 34:15 and your spouse shouldn't be neglecting you like this. " 34:18 "Such a terrible person. " 34:20 "A terrible person, obviously don't understand you 34:22 but I do. " 34:24 And they start you on this... they start reeling you in 34:27 like a fish. You know, you've taken the bait 34:32 in many cases and they're starting to reel you in 34:35 with all this talk to get to your emotional side 34:40 by saying how wonderful you are 34:42 and they understand and obviously, their spouse is... 34:46 is deficient and not doing the right thing 34:49 but you know a person like them would be perfect for you. 34:51 Whatever words they use they're reeling you in 34:56 to more than an emotional attachment. 34:59 And so that's where it becomes really dangerous. 35:04 Yeah, and I would just add to that 35:07 that that is so true... that that definitely can happen. 35:12 You know, in our relationship it wasn't like James is 35:15 a horrible person, but there was a different problem. 35:18 I was going through a lot of stress in my life 35:21 for something else that was taking place. 35:23 James was very busy at that time of his life 35:26 and we had just moved somewhere. I didn't know anyone. 35:29 I had no friends, so I did feel vulnerable from that respect. 35:32 But I was carrying something very very heavy 35:35 in my heart and my life 35:36 and you're right, I did find someone to talk to. 35:39 But it doesn't have to be about your spouse. 35:41 Sometimes it could be a work problem, 35:42 you know, that is important to you 35:44 or something taking place with your children 35:47 and you find like you said "a listening ear. " 35:49 Someone who is wanting to listen and like you said 35:55 being supportive. And sometimes it can be 35:58 even with your parents. It can be someone who 36:00 speaks... You know, you might have a problem 36:03 with your parents and someone else can say: 36:06 "Ah, yeah, your parents obviously don't understand you 36:09 and they're not doing the right thing by you" 36:11 etc. and they start putting a wall between yourself 36:15 and your parents which God in the 4th commandment 36:18 does not want. He wants you to honor your parents 36:21 and another person can be breaking... 36:25 you know... what's the word I'm trying to find? 36:29 Destroying that relationship with your parents 36:31 that you should be having 36:33 and taking you away from them. Yes! 36:36 So it's not just a spouse; it's in all different relationships. 36:39 So be very careful about someone who starts putting down 36:43 the person that you should be having the relationship with: 36:46 your parents, your spouse, your children. 36:49 Hmm. So what Rise was saying is 36:53 part of the study that we read in this book Not Just Friends 36:58 and what's really interesting is 37:00 you know we think about relationships primarily as 37:04 being infected by people who are trying to undermine 37:09 perhaps a relationship with a spouse, a husband or wife 37:13 or with other relatives. 37:15 But a lot of the... a lot of the emotional adultery 37:20 that is taking... the emotional affairs that are taking place 37:23 in the last few decades 37:26 are actually... they actually begin innocently. 37:29 A lot of them begin in the workplace. 37:32 They begin with people that you're friends with. 37:34 And you may not even be physically attracted to them. 37:38 A lot of these relationships develop with somebody... 37:41 Like in our situation, when I met this person 37:45 and you know interacted and confronted him 37:47 he wasn't a person... He wasn't a Christian. 37:49 He wasn't a believer and he wasn't a person I would think 37:51 my wife would be attracted to. 37:53 And so... But the attraction was 37:57 the emotional attachment. And the emotional attachment 38:00 was so strong that it wasn't like: "Yeah, I'm just going to 38:03 quit talking to this guy or whatever. " 38:05 My wife was thinking... Rise was thinking 38:07 "Can you have Bible studies with him? Can he still be part 38:10 of our friendship group? " Etc. etc. 38:13 That's how strong the emotional attachment was. 38:15 And it had nothing really to do with the physical. 38:18 And sometimes a woman can be so emotionally attached 38:22 to a man because he listens and because he is able to 38:26 minister in that way that the physical, the sexual interaction 38:31 is kind of like: "Yeah, of course, I'll let you. 38:34 We can have sex. " She's not necessarily 38:36 interested in that. He might definitely be interested in it 38:39 but it's the emotional that makes her more obligated 38:43 to the sexual. And that's where we really need to be aware 38:47 because this accidental... "We're just friends. " 38:50 That's why the book is called Not Just Friends. 38:53 "We're just friends. " And we know... I mean, we have 38:56 people that are close to us that have these friendships 38:59 that are so close that they're spending maybe more time 39:02 or as much time with the spouse, the husband or the wife. 39:05 They're going on little weekend excursions here and there 39:08 and doing little things together. 39:10 And we're thinking: "How can that? " "We're just friends. " 39:12 "We're JUST friends! " 39:13 That's how it starts and then Boom! 39:15 all of a sudden there's this moment when it moves into 39:19 maybe the physical. But even the emotional attachment 39:23 is off bounds, it's off-limits. Yes. 39:26 That's right. That's very very true. 39:28 So tell us about... Can you give us any details 39:31 about reconciliation in this situation? 39:34 You've mentioned it a little bit. What else can... 39:38 We began with owning... owning what's taking place. 39:43 And it took me a while to see it for what it really was. 39:46 And even after I told James there was a path... 39:49 Like James said, initially I was: "Ah, is there any way 39:51 I can keep this relationship and keep my marriage? " 39:54 And you realize: "No, it's impossible. " Right? 39:56 But at the time you are so unhealthy in your own psyche 40:00 in your own attachment - emotional attachment - that 40:03 it just... it's not immediate. 40:05 You know, there's this process that has to take place. 40:08 And I needed people to speak in to me. 40:12 I needed to learn. But I also remember telling James... 40:16 when I first told him I wasn't sure where I was emotionally. 40:19 But you have to come to a point where you're like: "No, 40:21 I want this primary relationship more than anything else 40:24 and I'm willing to whatever it takes. " 40:26 Because like I told you it is hard work. 40:29 And part of that hard work that we went through 40:32 was some counseling. There was a couple who took us 40:34 in and met with us pretty consistently. 40:36 So having a third party was really helpful for us 40:39 in helping us to learn tools and helping me to learn how 40:42 to develop boundaries and making commitments 40:47 and making decisions and choices. 40:49 Doing the remodeling process, you know. 40:51 Putting up the wall here so that you never ever 40:53 see that person again. 40:55 And you know, it's amazing. Now I'm like: 40:57 "He means nothing to me. " 40:59 You know what I'm saying? And at the time 41:01 it just didn't seem that way at all. 41:04 And one of the things we learned was that the unfaithful partner 41:07 has to become the healer. 41:09 Now I know Jesus is the healer, but what they meant by that 41:12 was that the only way healing can come 41:14 to James was through certain steps that - process - 41:20 of processing that I needed to take. 41:22 And then my own healing, though, I needed him. 41:25 You know, I needed James to pour into me... 41:27 which was SO challenging if you can imagine that. 41:30 For James to want to heal his wife who's hurting 41:32 because of this disconnect from someone else and etc. 41:36 So it was this process where were intentionally... 41:40 We had disconnected but were intentionally re-connecting 41:44 consistently and communicating and me being 100% transparent. 41:49 All those bricks that I had put between us of secrecy 41:52 they all had to come down one by one 41:54 for everything that had been said in secret was now told. 41:58 Kind of that Bible verse, you know? 41:59 Everything that... It will one day be proclaimed from the 42:03 rooftops everything that's done in secrecy. 42:05 And thankfully our sins go beforehand into judgment 42:08 rather than later so that all those bricks come down 42:11 and we can have the intimacy with Christ. 42:13 And that's what had to happen in our relationship 42:15 with each other was the open communication. 42:17 Yeah, it's so much like a relationship with Christ. 42:20 You know we... A lot of times Christians try to have 42:24 the relationship with the world and the relationship with God. 42:27 And you can't have both. 42:29 You've gotta make a clean break. 42:31 Rise needed to make a clean break with this. 42:33 Once she made a clean break that told me... I was hurting 42:36 and that told me... She made that step 42:38 and that helped me to make my next step. 42:40 And that's the same with Christ. You know, Christ wants 42:43 to have a relationship with us. 42:44 He's calling us to open that door so that He can come in 42:47 with us. Once she made that break like she said 42:50 "Now I can't even believe... I can't even think... 42:52 Was I really? What possessed me? " so to speak. 42:57 And many times as Christians that's the experience we have 43:00 with the world. We're thinking: "I used to like to drink? " 43:03 "I used to like to do the things that I was doing? " 43:06 "No. Not anymore I don't. " 43:08 And we're afraid sometimes. Rise was so afraid 43:10 to give up this relationship... this emotional relationship 43:13 that was really feeding her. And we're afraid sometimes 43:16 to give up the world. 43:17 The things of the world that we seem to rely on, 43:20 that we seem to need. 43:21 But God is saying: "Give that up because I have something 43:24 better for you. " So as she made a step 43:27 I could make a step. And each time... 43:29 Of course the counsellors were huge in this as Rise said. 43:31 They really helped us because 43:34 you know, I'm going by my emotions. Rise's going by 43:37 her emotions. Who's right? Who's wrong? 43:39 And they were helping us to navigate. 43:42 "Here's what you need to do in this situation. " 43:44 "Rise here's what you need to do. " 43:45 'James, here's what you need to do. " 43:47 "Here's why James is feeling the way he's feeling. " 43:49 "Rise, here's why you're feeling- ing the way you're feeling. " 43:50 "Here's the next step. " 43:52 We'd go for a couple weeks forward and then 43:55 maybe there'd be an encounter 43:57 and we'd fall backwards 43:58 and we'd have to kinda build again. 44:00 And like you said with that home illustration 44:02 you know sometimes when you're remodeling a home 44:04 it's so messy that you can't even envision 44:08 what it's supposed to look like. 44:09 You can't even see what it's supposed to look like 44:11 and you have to step forward by faith. 44:13 You have to clean up the mess. You have to keep going 44:15 with new plumbing and with the sheetrock and the paint 44:19 until finally you get to the place where it's a finished 44:22 project. And I love what you just said because 44:26 I was thinking how much more vulnerable and transparent 44:30 James became with me when I became much more vulnerable 44:34 and transparent... and it's continued. 44:36 And even to this day it's amazing to me 44:39 how James is much more sensitive to if we're not fully connected. 44:45 He's the one that will be: "Hey, let's talk about this. " 44:47 Or: "Don't feel as connected right now" 44:50 or whatever in checking. 'Cause once you've experienced 44:54 that level of intimacy you want to keep it going. 44:56 But it does take maintenance. 44:57 That's right. And the other thing I was thinking of 44:59 there has to be a willingness on both parties 45:02 to want to reconcile to make it work. 45:05 Because in the world today it's very easy to say: 45:08 "Oh, I'm out! " You know? 45:10 And what makes the difference is Rise realized 45:13 that she wanted to make this relationship work 45:17 and James, you wanted to make this relationship work. 45:20 It WILL work if we call upon God 45:23 and we do follow those prin- ciples. But it's so easy today 45:26 to just walk away than continue in that relationship. 45:31 That's right. OK... let's go on and talk about 45:35 the relational growth that happens 45:37 when you are reconciling. 45:41 So you're able to come together. Have you got any scriptures 45:44 that would help people in this situation? 45:49 Yes. There's one: II Peter 3:18. 45:52 What's that one? 45:56 So II Peter chapter 3 and verse 18. 45:59 Let's just take a look at that. 46:01 It's a great... It's a great scripture for 46:07 us in its context. 46:09 And I love the context of it because 46:11 we're looking here at, you know, the instability 46:17 of people in verse 16 46:21 and being aware or being beware 46:25 of wickedness and falling from our steadfastness. 46:30 And so those are the previous verses, and then verse 18 says: 46:34 "But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord 46:38 and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and forever. 46:42 Amen. " Now every single phrase in that last verse is gold. 46:48 Hmm. It's absolutely precious. 46:51 "We grow in grace. " Well, that's what Rise and I needed. 46:54 We needed to have grace. That's unmerited favor. 46:57 That is only necessary when someone is fallen. 47:02 Angels... unfallen angels don't need grace. 47:05 We need grace because we're weak; we've fallen. 47:09 So I need to manifest grace to Rise. 47:11 Rise needs to manifest grace to me. 47:13 "And in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. " 47:17 Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 47:19 The knowledge that He's Savior; the knowledge that He's Lord. 47:23 The knowledge that Jesus - who will save us from our sins - 47:27 that's what the name means - 47:29 is Christ, the Anointed One. 47:30 "To Him be glory. " Our relationship isn't about 47:34 glorifying ourselves. 47:35 Our marriage isn't about bringing glory to us. 47:38 Our marriage, our relationships are about glorifying God. 47:42 And when our motive and when our focus is on God 47:45 and not on ourselves 47:46 we're not going to "chuck" the relationship. 47:48 We "chuck" the relationship 'cause we're giving up 47:50 on ourselves, but we won't "chuck" the relationship 47:53 when our focus is on God 47:54 and when our focus is for HIS glory and not for our own glory. 47:58 So it's powerful really because 48:01 you know John and Rosemary we are a testimony 48:07 of what God can do to heal relationships 48:10 that have gone through tremendous strain. 48:13 And we can now, as it says in II Corinthians chapter 1, 48:17 we can now "comfort others with the same comfort 48:20 whereby we've been comforted of God. " 48:22 And so we've got all these principles, all these 48:25 you know nurturing relational healing 48:29 thoughts and verses and experience that we can 48:33 share with people that can really encourage them 48:36 in their relationships. 48:37 And when you're looking 48:41 the grow in grace that starts 48:43 there's not only the grace we need from God. 48:45 It's the grace we need from each other. 48:48 We need to be willing to give grace. 48:50 We need to be willing to be forgiving 48:53 and we also need to be willing to be forgiven. 48:58 And as we give each other the grace... Every gift that God 49:02 gives us... I look at it this way: 49:04 Every spiritual blessing that God gives us 49:06 it's not for us to hold onto and selfishly keep for ourselves; 49:11 it is for us to pass on to other people. 49:14 So when God gives us His grace - 49:17 His unmerited favor - 49:18 we are to pass that on to others. 49:21 When God gives us His forgiveness 49:23 we are to pass that on to others. 49:24 When God gives us His compassion we are to be compassionate 49:29 to others. And so it has to be from the vertical 49:33 to the horizontal as you were talking about 49:35 but this is one of the ways that we do it. 49:37 What God gives us we pass on to our spouse 49:40 or whoever else is in the relationship 49:42 whether it's our parents, children, whatever. 49:45 Yeah, grace is the fertilizer. 49:47 I love that phrase too: grow in grace. 49:50 That unconditional acceptance from God. 49:54 And it's when you're broken... you know, when you have... 49:58 Acknowledging our sin is the first step. 50:01 When you are fully broken and truly repentant 50:04 for that sin there is nothing more that you need 50:08 that can help you grow because you feel like 50:10 it might be impossible. And I think that if I had 50:13 anything to say I just want to encourage people 50:15 out there because my verse that we read 50:19 in I Corinthians, II Corinthians about 50:21 "There is no temptation but what's common to man. " 50:24 So I know that there are other people who struggle 50:26 with their heart straying or with marriages 50:29 as intimate and transparent. Maybe there's a wall 50:33 that's between you and your spouse 50:36 and that God wants to help you heal. 50:40 He wants to redeem your marriage. 50:42 He wants to help you overcome in the area of your weakness 50:45 and that there are tools. 50:49 Those tools can be a third party like we've mentioned. 50:52 People who are non-judgmental 50:54 but that can help you grow and be accountable. 50:57 'Cause sometimes we've seen that marriage partners can 51:01 become ambivalent. They feel like 51:03 "Ah, it's not worth the hassle; it takes too much work, etc. " 51:06 So one person's ambivalent toward the other one. 51:09 So a third person can be really helpful. 51:12 And then we'd read books. James and I have read books. 51:15 We realize that marriage is a school. 51:17 We didn't come knowing exactly how to do this perfectly 51:20 and so let's read, let's study. 51:22 You know, let's read up and brush up. 51:25 And that doesn't mean we give our marriage 100% of our focus. 51:28 James and I are very busy and passionate about the things 51:30 that we're doing, but we definitely connect 51:33 and stay connected in these ways 51:35 by pursuing personal growth within our marriage growth. 51:40 You know, making sure that on a consistent basis 51:42 we are checking in with each other and there's nothing 51:45 in our hearts that we're not sharing with the other person. 51:48 Yeah. So can you just quickly tell us some of the books 51:51 that you have found helpful? 51:54 Or if you can't remember perhaps you can pass them on. 51:59 One of the books that we mentioned was Not Just Friends. 52:02 We found that to be really helpful for our specific 52:06 situation. Another one that I read 52:08 that was really helpful for me was 52:10 Discovering the Mind of a Woman. 52:13 And that one... Now that would have... 52:15 That would have been a hard one! 52:18 That one taught me to take responsibility 52:23 for the marriage relationship 52:24 like Christ took responsibility for the marriage relationship. 52:28 Rise, can you think of a couple of others? 52:30 Every Woman's Battle I remember reading. 52:33 The Proper Care and Feeding of Your Husband. 52:36 That was an important one too. 52:41 Actually I'm just going to take a break right at the moment 52:44 because we have to give our address roll. 52:47 And we're talking with Pr. James and Rise Rafferty. 52:53 And we are talking about relationships. 52:56 If you would like to find out what some of these books are, 53:00 contact us and we'll pass that information on to you. 53:03 And if you want to contact us about anything else 53:06 to do with this program or other programs that we make 53:08 we'd love to hear from you. And these are our contact details: 53:51 Thank you for all you do to help us light the world 53:54 with the glory of God's truth. 53:57 I hope you got those details. 53:59 And James and Rise 54:01 you know in the closing moments of our program today 54:04 we just want to ask you to re-cap. 54:06 Bring out some points that you feel will help people 54:09 as they think about recon- ciliation and re-building their 54:13 marriage and the home family. 54:16 We're all in the same boat. 54:18 You know, relationships are key. They're foundational 54:21 for us as humans and they're under attack. 54:24 And we shouldn't be surprised if our relationships 54:27 aren't perfect. Even if we're in pastoral ministry 54:30 work... wherever we are... 54:32 we need help with relationships. 54:34 And it can be messy. 54:36 Healing relationships, fixing relationships, 54:39 remodeling relationships can be messy. 54:41 And maybe we're thinking: "Well I'd rather just not 54:43 deal with the mess. " 54:45 But yet the plumbing needs to be fixed. 54:47 You know, that window needs to be moved. 54:48 That wall needs to be put up or taken down. 54:50 And so we need to be willing to get through the mess 54:55 to get to the place where this home 54:58 is what God wants it to be. 54:59 And a lot of that of course takes place 55:02 in the trenches. So we talked about some books 55:04 like Not Just Friends, 55:05 Discovering the Mind of a Woman, 55:07 Rise, you had a couple books that you were sharing. 55:12 My Greatest Battle or something like that? 55:14 What was it? Oh yeah, Woman's... 55:16 That's the one I couldn't remember, but 55:18 The Proper Care and Feeding of Your Husband. 55:20 And I'll remember the other one and I can send that to you. 55:23 Every Woman's Battle. 55:25 Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. 55:28 The Five Love Languages was phenomenal for us. 55:31 So a lot of these are books 55:33 that can help us learn principles 55:36 that are Biblical. When I read The Five Love Languages 55:38 for example I thought 55:40 "That's great, but is that in the Bible? " 55:42 And recently we did a 3ABN Camp Meeting 55:45 on the book of Hebrews with the theme Something Better. 55:47 And I discovered that that book is a relational book 55:50 from start to finish and that the five love languages 55:53 are in the book of Hebrews. And not only that 55:56 but there's two others in there. 55:58 And that was words I mean not words of affirmation 56:01 words of correction which is Hebrews 12 56:03 and commitment which is Hebrews 13:5: 56:06 "I will never leave you nor forsake you. " 56:08 These love languages if we learn them 56:11 are the way we can communicate love to other people. 56:14 To our spouse, to our husband, to our children, 56:17 families, communities, etc. 56:19 We need to learn how to love people in a language 56:22 that they can understand. 56:24 I'm going to just add to that, I think it's important 56:27 that we look at this topic. There may be people who 56:29 would be like: "Oh I would never do anything like that 56:32 to my spouse. " And I'll tell you: I was one of them. 56:35 Right? I would never! 56:36 And you don't realize how susceptible and weak you are, 56:40 vulnerable you are at certain times of your life, etc. 56:43 And so prevention is always better than 56:46 trying to you know remodel. 56:49 And how can you just be 56:51 consistently checking in with each other 56:53 and seeking to prevent some- thing like this from happening 56:57 by guarding those walls and windows 56:59 and making sure that your home is secure. 57:02 Checking in... doing that kind of maintenance. 57:04 I know that it's very easy for somebody 57:09 else to try and come into a relationship 57:11 because that's what Satan's all about. 57:13 As you said, James Satan is trying to destroy 57:17 relationships because that is the building block 57:20 for the whole of society. 57:22 And many times you'll find someone tries to come into 57:25 your personal space. You've gotta take a step away. 57:28 You don't let them stay in that position. 57:32 You have to let them know at the beginning 57:34 "No, this is not on. " 57:36 We've been talking with James and Rise Rafferty. 57:39 And I'm sure that you have been helped by this program. 57:42 If you need any more details, contact us. God bless you. |
Revised 2022-05-05