Participants: Seth Yelorda (Host), Alfonzo Greene, Lola Moore, Michael Kelley, Michael Polite
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000003
00:35 Welcome to Pure Choices.
00:36 We're so glad that you join us again today
00:37 for another episode of these hot topics
00:40 that we've been dealing with.
00:41 As we go into this topic,
00:43 I just want to introduce my panel again,
00:45 my colleagues, we have Pastor Alfonzo Greene
00:48 who's here from the Huntsville,
00:50 First SDA Church in Huntsville, Alabama.
00:53 We have Pastor Mike Polite
00:55 who is the associate pastor at the Riverside,
00:57 SDA church in Nashville, Tennessee.
01:00 We have Pastor Lola Moore
01:02 who is here with us from the Oakwood University Church
01:05 in Huntsville, Alabama.
01:07 And then we have my brother Pastor Michael B. Kelly
01:10 the second I believe
01:11 who is here all the way from California
01:14 the Riverside area, Mt. Rubidoux SDA Church.
01:17 So I'm glad that you all here today.
01:18 Today we're going to be dealing
01:20 with probably one of the hottest topics
01:21 that we're going to tackle all season long
01:24 and that is homosexuality.
01:26 It's something that we know
01:27 is growing more and more in the church,
01:30 it's growing in society.
01:33 There is really a strong movement for it.
01:35 And we just really want to deal with it.
01:37 And we want to give our viewers some advice
01:40 and counsel the Word of God on this issue.
01:43 So that they can be educated and edified
01:45 concerning this topic.
01:47 Now I know that a question that is on a lot of people's minds
01:51 when it comes to homosexuality is nature versus nurture.
01:54 You know, was I born this way?
01:56 Was this something that I picked up along the way?
01:58 Was I socialized this way?
02:00 And so we're just gonna ahead and jump in right there
02:02 and really just trying to bring some clarity
02:04 to this whole issue of nature versus nurture
02:06 born or socialized
02:08 'cause I'm gonna throw it out there.
02:09 What do you all, what are your thoughts?
02:10 What do you think when you hear out there.
02:12 What does the Word of God say to you concerning this topic?
02:15 Well, I think it depends on the person.
02:17 If you surveyed 100 people
02:20 who subscribes to a homosexual lifestyle,
02:22 I think that you'll hear 100 different stories
02:25 about how they discovered
02:27 their sexuality in that direction.
02:30 How it was introduced to them, they were curious about it.
02:34 So I don't think it's fair to put anyone in one box.
02:37 I think that everyone is different.
02:40 And I think that an individual
02:42 would be able to tell you their story,
02:44 and by then they would be able to,
02:46 you know, to share with you how it came about.
02:49 Yeah, and I think with that there's definitely,
02:52 I love the idea of a combination
02:54 because, you know, you don't always...
02:58 When I say come out of the woman as a baby say,
02:59 "Oh, this is it there's something in you"
03:02 that I think does eventually, you know, come out.
03:05 The thing though I think the Word of God lets us know
03:07 is that we're all born in sin, shapen in iniquity.
03:11 And one of the things that
03:12 I know some people are afraid of that,
03:14 that I think that the word clarifies
03:17 is as we're born in sin, shapen in iniquity
03:19 we come into this world
03:21 with a natural bent to do those things
03:24 that are not becoming to Christ as opposed to what is.
03:27 And I don't believe that it is so absurd to think
03:32 that being born in sin
03:34 that takes on different bent that they may have.
03:36 So there are different things
03:38 that I believe I came into this world with,
03:40 as a result of being born in sin
03:42 that are different than what you have,
03:45 than what you have, than what you have.
03:47 They are fallen under that category
03:48 so for someone to say,
03:50 you know what, I was born with this bent.
03:53 I can receive that.
03:55 However what we've got to, what we must also understand is
03:58 when I'm born as a sinner
04:00 that never takes away my ability to choose.
04:03 Well, I think the issue that we have wrestled with is
04:06 that when people say, I'm born this way.
04:08 I think the churches response to that has been
04:11 "No, you're not born this way"
04:12 because in our mind somehow we feel
04:14 if I'm born homosexual,
04:16 then somewhere God messed up.
04:18 You know, like God doesn't mess up in His creation.
04:21 And so no one is born homosexual.
04:23 No one is born this way.
04:24 But it's something that you've been socialized,
04:26 maybe you had an experience in your younger years
04:28 and you kind of picked it up along the way.
04:30 But this is not the way God created you.
04:31 And so we wrestle with that as a church.
04:33 Right and we know God didn't mess up though.
04:34 Adam and Eve messed up,
04:36 and as a result of that as Pastor Kelly just mentioned,
04:38 we have now this bent towards
04:40 doing things that are not in line
04:42 with God's will and the way of God.
04:45 And so like he said this is not absurd.
04:47 I mean, look bottom line
04:49 is there're people that are born from propensity
04:51 to alcoholism
04:52 and you better believe
04:54 that the enemy is right there to try to create circumstances
04:57 and situations knowing the grandparents,
05:01 the great grandparents, the great grandparents.
05:03 He knows your genetic line.
05:06 He's going to create circumstances
05:07 that are going to cause you to try to fall
05:09 into some of those same patterns.
05:11 And so it's not absurd to think
05:12 that someone could have a bent towards homosexuality.
05:16 Well, I think people get concerned we're just saying
05:17 that though is the bent gives me the excuse.
05:21 And that's why people are afraid of.
05:22 So that I think we should remove that right now.
05:24 So if I'm born this way, then that means it's okay.
05:25 It's okay.
05:27 And we got to remove that right now
05:28 because I'm born a sinner.
05:29 I'm born a sinner doesn't make one a thief.
05:31 Well, I guess to what they're saying
05:34 and what I've heard is that
05:35 because, okay, I was born black as an African-American.
05:38 I was born black.
05:40 Now we know that we came out of a movement
05:41 the civil rights era where people actually said,
05:43 "If you are black you are less than," you know.
05:46 And you're what three face human?
05:48 You don't have the same rights
05:49 because of the way that you are born.
05:51 And so the whole civil rights era
05:53 was about me establishing
05:55 my humanity in the eyes of the world.
05:58 Well, I think one thing that would help our argument
06:01 is to take nature versus nurture.
06:04 And take out the verses and put in the end.
06:08 We all have a bent perverted, wicked nature.
06:15 And I believe the goal of the realm of darkness
06:18 is to make sure that once we come into the world
06:20 that is nurtured.
06:22 So a lot of times we ask,
06:23 "Well, is it that I was born this way
06:25 or was it the environment, was it my parents,
06:27 was it my school or my group of friends?"
06:29 No, you were born with a sinful nature.
06:33 And it is now the enemy's job
06:36 who knows your gene pool by the way,
06:38 who's been around for centuries.
06:39 So he knows about your granddaddy,
06:41 your great grand, everything.
06:42 He knows what's coming down the pipe.
06:44 Now it's his goal to nurture that.
06:46 Right. Okay. Okay.
06:48 So, no, no, no.
06:50 And I think one of the things as I was reading this one book
06:53 entitled "Authentic Human Sexuality".
06:56 The idea of that nature versus nurture, I love that.
06:58 We have maybe this bent coming in.
07:01 One of the things that they say
07:02 is that boys start to experience sexuality
07:06 at a much earlier age than girls,
07:08 but at an age
07:10 where they spend a lot of time around other boys.
07:13 So you see so at the time when girls have got cooties
07:18 that's when I'm starting to develop my sexuality.
07:22 And so it's not the excuse
07:23 but it just ties and I think to the idea
07:25 that if I do have that bent
07:29 and I'm having that nurture experience around other guys
07:32 or the other idea of how it socialize,
07:34 if I've had inappropriate
07:36 or bad experiences with the opposite sex,
07:39 it just adds to it.
07:41 So it's definitely a combination
07:42 and the devil knows how to create,
07:43 I think a lot of times, you know, that perfect storm.
07:46 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
07:48 Something that you just mentioned that you talked about
07:49 being born black, you just kind of talk about,
07:52 you know, just kind of comparing
07:54 the civil rights movement.
07:55 One of things that's important,
07:56 it's not sinful to be black
07:59 according to the Word of God
08:02 but a homosexual lifestyle...
08:04 It's not God's ideal.
08:05 It's not God's ideal.
08:07 So I think there's a difference there.
08:08 But all of us are sinners.
08:10 And so the same blood that covers lying,
08:14 the same blood that covers stealing
08:17 is the same blood that covers homosexuality.
08:20 And so I think one of things as a church that we have to do is
08:23 not elevate homosexuality to a level...
08:26 That is worse than anything else.
08:28 Right, because it's all sin
08:30 and we all need the grace of Jesus Christ.
08:31 So I guess the argument is that,
08:33 you know, I'm born black
08:34 and so how can the way I'm born be a curse.
08:38 Or how can the way I'm born be sinful.
08:40 And I guess on the flip side I'll say,
08:42 well, if I'm born with this natural orientation
08:43 as a man to like men,
08:45 then how can that be wrong?
08:46 But we all have an orientation to something.
08:48 Now, you may not be aware of it but all of us have orientation.
08:50 So let me throw this question out there.
08:52 What then is wrong with homosexuality?
08:54 Well, we've been casting our gays back
08:59 as we've gone from program to program
09:01 to what God's ideal was.
09:03 We believe that in Genesis 1 and 2,
09:06 as the creation story unfolds
09:08 that God shows is where His ideal
09:10 is for humanity, sexuality
09:13 and their relationships that God originally intended
09:17 for a man and a woman to come together in marriage,
09:21 and then by that way
09:23 they would be fruitful and multiply.
09:25 That procreation was a part of God's original plan.
09:28 And so when we look at homosexuality,
09:30 homosexuality does a couple of things
09:32 and departure from the original plan.
09:34 First off it has a relationship
09:36 between two people of the same gender
09:38 which was not God's original plan.
09:40 And there's secondly,
09:41 it eliminates the possibility for procreation.
09:44 It is not...
09:46 It eliminates people
09:48 from participating in being fruitful and multiply
09:51 as God originally intended.
09:55 What we have to be careful of though
09:58 scripture portrays different cultures
10:00 as they come down to the worst of the worst.
10:03 And homosexuality is usually connected in those stories
10:07 with these cultures coming to the worst of the worst.
10:11 And what we have to do I think is to be sensitive
10:14 that individuals who subscribe to this homosexual nature
10:19 are not necessarily given over "to a reprobate mind"
10:22 that these individuals
10:23 are necessarily at the end of their morality
10:26 but rather are struggling
10:27 with a very real part of who they are.
10:31 I think that's what ties into the idea with this,
10:33 with why sometimes is compared to the civil rights.
10:36 And this is where I think the way the church responds
10:39 and people responds, they eliminate it
10:41 because of the civil rights was about
10:43 not simply color of skin
10:45 but it's like I need equality...
10:49 I am still a human.
10:50 Now obviously I don't agree
10:52 with someone looking a certain way
10:53 that you treat them differently.
10:55 But the idea is even though I'm different
10:57 and let's say you did think
10:59 that the idea of me being black was an issue.
11:03 I'm still a human being.
11:05 And so I'm saying, I think the reason
11:07 that the homosexual lifestyle
11:09 can have that kind of connection
11:11 is because we sometimes,
11:13 when I say we I mean, obviously we don't do that here.
11:15 We say okay, that's not right lifestyle,
11:18 so we're going to treat you differently.
11:20 And they'll say no, no, no.
11:22 We already, I think we established it very clearly
11:23 that's not God's ideal,
11:25 but even if you're not living God's ideal
11:27 you're still His child
11:28 and He still wants to save you.
11:29 And that's why it's so important for our churches
11:33 to learn how to appropriately respond
11:36 because all we do is make martyrs.
11:38 So now the distraction is off of the moral issue,
11:43 but now it's back on the human issue
11:45 when that's really not the core of the issue.
11:48 But because we have treated them as less,
11:51 because they are dealing with this specific proclivity
11:54 towards an alternative lifestyle,
11:57 now they have that argument to raise up,
11:59 "Wait, I'm still human."
12:01 Why aren't you loving me?
12:02 Why aren't you welcoming me?
12:04 Why is it their ministry that is for me?
12:06 And that makes martyrs.
12:08 And I think the bullying thing
12:09 though is kind of like the example right now
12:12 where you have in schools
12:14 where people that are homosexuals are being bullied.
12:17 Just dealing with the human element
12:19 that should not happen.
12:21 Even though we don't want to agree
12:23 as far as from what God says
12:24 with the lifestyle of homosexuality,
12:26 that gives no one the right to bully someone
12:29 that may be living that lifestyle.
12:31 So when we focus on that,
12:33 it distorts the real issue which is a moral issue.
12:36 And I think there's a fine line
12:38 where we as a church need to learn to walk better
12:41 that Jesus obviously walked perfectly.
12:43 Love the sinner but I can't stand the sin.
12:47 But I'm not going to mix it through.
12:48 It's hard for us to find that balance.
12:50 Because we think if I love you, I'm accepting what you do.
12:53 Right. Yes.
12:55 And that's not the case.
12:57 We will lift up that, "Hey, there's victory over this,
13:00 you know, there's something
13:02 that this is not what God wants you to be.
13:03 And it's the same thing with the person
13:04 who's heterosexual
13:06 but sleeping around everybody.
13:07 That's not what you want you to be.
13:09 But however not but, however,
13:12 I'm still going to love you the way that Christ would
13:14 because you need the blood just like I need the blood.
13:17 And well, there's not going to be the difference there.
13:18 So how do you address that individual who,
13:21 you know, they say, you know, Pastor,
13:23 when I was seven, eight, nine years old,
13:25 I was molested by uncle or an aunt
13:27 or someone in my family.
13:29 As a result that kind of put me on a spiral out of control.
13:32 I've committed that,
13:33 you know, I've been part of a homosexual lifestyle
13:35 and I feel like I've done that abominable act,
13:39 will God accept me?
13:40 How can I come back from that?
13:42 Like where is the hope,
13:43 what do we say to that individual?
13:45 The first step as a church
13:46 we need to do away with the pyramid structure of sins,
13:50 so at the bottom we have white lies,
13:54 maybe using profanity
13:56 and then on top we have
13:58 child molestation and homosexuality.
14:01 So then that member does feel like
14:03 I have committed the abominable act.
14:06 I am up here on the top
14:08 where sins exist that God cannot free
14:11 where His restoration has no type of remedy,
14:16 or it cannot medicate my problem.
14:19 Man, we have to bring everything down
14:21 to the same level and say, "No, all have sinned
14:23 and all have come short of the glory of God.
14:26 But if I confess my sin,
14:28 He is faithful and just to forgive my sins."
14:31 And I think the important thing in understanding sin
14:33 is that God's issue was sin is not the stuff we see.
14:37 It's what it does
14:38 to the relationship between us and Him.
14:40 That's His biggest issue with it.
14:41 So whether it is the lie
14:43 or this, His thing is
14:44 sin just gets in between fellowship and relationship.
14:48 And I think the pyramid structure
14:49 that we see established in the church
14:52 is because the church almost deals with sin
14:55 based off consequences.
14:58 And so if you tell a white lie
15:00 compared to if you are a child molester,
15:03 there is much more significant consequences
15:05 for being a child molester.
15:06 You go to jail, destroy your family.
15:09 As a whole if you tell white lie
15:10 well, you can rebound from that pretty quickly.
15:12 And so we judge it based of off consequences...
15:14 Will they put him on the cross? Right.
15:16 But at the end of the day
15:17 when you tell white lie
15:19 or whether you're a child molester
15:20 is just as detrimental to your walk with God.
15:22 It's just as detrimental to your eternal salvation.
15:24 So I like what you're saying,
15:25 how can we level the playing field
15:27 and put them all on the same level.
15:28 And now that they're on the same playing field,
15:30 how then do we address it?
15:31 The same way that we would address every sin,
15:34 point to Christ.
15:35 Well, but I think that within the church context though
15:38 and this is where we have to be sensitive within the church.
15:41 You know, there's a history of,
15:43 you know, just really being insensitive to people
15:47 really dealing with the issue of homosexuality
15:50 the way that we preach,
15:51 the way that we talk is just very insensitive.
15:55 And so it doesn't create an environment
15:56 where someone that's struggling with homosexuality
16:00 can really feel safe
16:03 to know that Jesus can help you and...
16:06 In a community where people
16:08 while we love you and we hate the sin
16:11 are here to help you go through this very difficult thing.
16:14 And that needs to be with any sin.
16:16 What I mean but especially,
16:18 you know, we just have to be more sensitive
16:19 within the body of Christ.
16:21 You know, Lola, you were telling something,
16:22 you know, off air in the back
16:24 about a situation with somebody,
16:26 you know, who is struggling with that
16:28 and I think that's real powerful for this situation.
16:30 Absolutely, I was speaking to a person
16:32 who has a profession of counseling.
16:34 And one of their, a person who they were in relationship with
16:40 actually came to them
16:41 and happened to be living a homosexual lifestyle.
16:45 That wasn't the reason why they had a conversation
16:47 or why they were in relationship.
16:49 But this was a part of this other individual's life.
16:51 In the course of time as they related to one another
16:54 and talked about some real issues
16:57 and opened up to one another.
16:59 The person living a homosexual lifestyle
17:01 actually asked this individual,
17:04 "You know, what do you think about my lifestyle,
17:06 is this something that you think I need to change?"
17:10 I'm realizing that the need that individuals are having
17:14 who were struggling with any type of sin
17:17 is love and acceptance.
17:19 Not acceptance of their sin but acceptance of the person.
17:22 And once an individual feel safe and loved,
17:26 then they will be open to hear
17:28 whatever it is that we have to say about
17:30 what God says about our lifestyles.
17:32 You know, I like that.
17:33 The best illustration I've ever heard
17:35 when it comes to how the church should relate to individuals
17:38 who may be homosexual
17:39 but anyone who is struggling with any sin
17:41 as we all struggle,
17:42 and we have different issues in our lives
17:44 is that God judges, the Holy Spirit convicts
17:49 and the church loves.
17:51 Like that should be our approach,
17:52 God judges, Holy Spirit convicts
17:54 and the church loves.
17:55 What's our responsibility?
17:57 It's to love.
17:58 Now love like you said is not well,
18:00 and let me accept this thing
18:02 and doesn't matter what you're doing.
18:04 No, love is yes, I accept you.
18:06 I want to help you, I want to pray for you,
18:08 I want to challenge you.
18:09 You know, we need that kind of ability.
18:11 Love is a kind of ability.
18:12 You know, so that if you know I'm struggling today.
18:15 Well, listen, let me make sure that you don't go deviate.
18:17 Let me make sure you stay on the right path.
18:19 But there's a word that just has to be in our churches,
18:22 in our minds and in our lives
18:24 and that's the idea of being saved.
18:25 One thing I love about Christ that He was safe.
18:28 He was safe to come through in an approach
18:30 and I know one of the things in my church
18:32 I did some very specific talks on homosexuality
18:36 and it created,
18:38 you know, in that timeframe a safe environment
18:41 where people can say, "Okay, we're going to talk about it,
18:44 we're educated about it."
18:45 So now if I come out with this or you see me with,
18:48 you're struggling with something,
18:50 I know it's not going to be ashamed and all that.
18:53 I'm not expecting
18:55 because there is a group that says
18:56 you need to accept me the way I am.
18:57 I'm saying just like I wouldn't accept
18:59 someone's always lying to my face
19:01 and say, "Oh, that's fine, keep lying" don't accept that,
19:03 but there has to be a safe environment
19:05 where people because let me tell you,
19:06 there are young people
19:08 I know who are even watching right now,
19:09 who are in our churches,
19:11 who are being bombarded with it on T.V.
19:13 saying that, "It's okay."
19:15 They're struggling with it
19:16 and what happens is
19:18 when they don't find that love and acceptance
19:20 amongst the church, it is not safe in the church.
19:23 Oh, there's a very safe environment in other places.
19:26 And that safe environment
19:27 unfortunately, usually is feeding that lifestyle.
19:31 And let me tell you,
19:33 the goal of a lot of people is to feel safe.
19:35 And one of the measurements of safety
19:37 is one feels listened to.
19:40 So we look at James 5 where it says,
19:42 "Confess your faults one to another,
19:44 and you will be healed."
19:46 What James is saying is that
19:47 the early Christian church was so together
19:49 and had created such a safe environment
19:52 that I had accountability partners
19:54 in my church family
19:56 where I can tell them what I'm struggling with.
19:59 Currently the homosexual demographic in our churches
20:03 does not feel as if we're here to listen to them.
20:06 And therefore according to James,
20:08 I think they are missing out on some of the healing power
20:11 of being able to talk about the issue.
20:13 That's powerful. That's powerful.
20:15 So we have someone who's struggling.
20:17 We recognize the role that a church should play
20:19 in demonstrating love,
20:20 but what are the tools can we give that individual
20:22 who says listen, you know, Pastor,
20:24 I'm in a homosexual lifestyle,
20:25 I don't want to be in this lifestyle,
20:27 I want victory over this thing
20:29 but I'm just bound.
20:31 What do I do?
20:32 What do I need? Help me.
20:34 What do we say to that person?
20:35 You know, I think the first step
20:37 with anything usually that homosexual lifestyle
20:41 because of we talked about me having a safe environment
20:43 is usually a secret
20:44 except the people I'm engaging with,
20:46 you've got to find someone outside of that circle
20:49 and you've got to share.
20:51 And that doesn't have to be a pastor
20:53 but just somebody who you know.
20:55 And who you say I can get them.
20:57 Someone who is spiritual.
20:58 Yeah, who I can get out.
21:01 I need to be able to get that out.
21:02 You've got to because the devil loves secrecy.
21:05 The moment it's out in the open
21:07 that's when I think God to do something.
21:09 Yeah, He had to do something with that.
21:10 Right, right, right.
21:11 So I tell somebody.
21:13 I tell my brother, I tell the pastor,
21:14 I tell one of the elders
21:16 who have a good relationship with in the church.
21:17 I tell... Spiritually minded.
21:19 Yes, spiritual people, I tell someone...
21:21 Just keep emphasizing that. Yeah.
21:22 Don't just blur it to anybody...
21:24 Yeah, don't just tell anybody.
21:25 You want to be very clear with others.
21:26 So don't tell anybody
21:28 but you go to someone
21:29 that you really feel knows the Lord,
21:31 a prayer warrior, someone that you can connect with.
21:32 So I tell them then what?
21:34 What do I do? What's the next step?
21:35 It was said in our previous program.
21:38 And I think I want to reiterate now
21:39 because it's very powerful
21:41 that you also have to enlist the support of professionals.
21:45 A professional counselor or someone who's well versed
21:49 and that type of mindset.
21:51 If you're trying to get out,
21:53 understand that the enemy is going to do
21:54 all that he can to keep you in.
21:57 And so you have to get
21:58 as much reinforcement as you can to get out.
22:01 So along with spiritually minded people
22:03 who are praying you up
22:04 and who are surrounding you,
22:05 you also need some professional help who's,
22:07 individuals who gonna help you work through
22:11 all of the things that you're going to face
22:13 as you try to exit that lifestyle.
22:15 So I mean, what I hear you saying
22:16 mean for that person who's 17, 18, 19
22:18 and they're struggling.
22:20 Even 21 however, old you are
22:22 that they need to seek some type of professional help.
22:24 They need to seek some type of...
22:26 We talked about it in one of the other programs
22:28 about understanding the triggers,
22:30 you know, why do I do what I do?
22:32 Where is this coming from?
22:33 Why do I have this affinity
22:34 towards someone of the same sex?
22:36 Why do I have flow like this?
22:37 So I need to help, I need to understand that.
22:39 I want to clarify though
22:40 because I don't want someone to get the impression that,
22:43 oh, because I, you know, I have a let's say
22:47 homosexual lifestyle,
22:48 all of a sudden I need to go see someone cares.
22:50 I will even go I would tell somebody
22:53 who is extremely promiscuous with the opposite sex.
22:57 See that sexual part of it
23:00 is what I think the outside help does become is,
23:04 I don't, I guess I don't want the person to be,
23:06 "Oh well, so somebody who's going around
23:07 sleeping with a bunch of girls
23:09 Dear God, they need the help".
23:10 They can just pray that thing away.
23:12 No, you might leave that as well too.
23:15 Yeah, and you know somebody
23:16 but it can't just be anybody I think,
23:18 you know, a Christian counselor who has that same principle
23:21 because we're operating under the premise
23:23 that I'm not in the ideal
23:25 and I want to get back to God's original plan,
23:29 not just for my behavior but my thoughts.
23:32 Not just for my thoughts but my actions
23:34 for in my holistic way of life.
23:35 And I also believe that the individual struggling
23:37 has to accept that my sin is not special.
23:41 Although everything in my environment
23:43 is trying to convince me
23:45 that this issue is special.
23:49 It's different than all the other sins.
23:51 No, the stuff that the pastor is talking about
23:54 to the alcoholic
23:55 or the one who is having substance abuse problems.
23:58 That stuff is not going to work for my issue
24:00 because my sin is special.
24:02 No, you have to come to the point where you accept,
24:04 no, my sin is just a sin.
24:06 So the same thing that Christ prescribes
24:09 for the person dealing with adultery
24:11 is the same thing He will prescribe for you.
24:14 And if I can jump in real quick
24:15 because I know within our culture
24:18 there's a stigma that comes with seeking professional help
24:21 or seeking counseling.
24:22 And what we're saying here
24:24 is that a counselor will have some tools
24:27 that the average church member won't have.
24:30 And we're in need of those tools.
24:32 The professional has the tools, they know how to utilize them
24:35 and that's why we go to the professional.
24:37 Not because we're crazy as Pastor Kelly said before.
24:40 Not because, you know, there's something wrong with us,
24:43 but because we need the tools,
24:45 and the professional can provide the tools
24:47 to give us the deliverance that we need.
24:49 In addition to that,
24:51 what role does my walk with the Lord play in this thing?
24:54 You know, can I just pray it away?
24:57 You know, can I just, you know, fast and labor over this thing,
25:00 and, you know, somehow, you know, how...
25:03 I don't know if that's a straight yes or no.
25:06 I mean, some people that's how it's able to...
25:10 It might be able to manifest itself
25:12 depending on lets say maybe how early
25:13 and different ways you catch it.
25:15 We've got to understand though
25:16 that sometimes sin
25:17 and this is where the earthly consequences come in.
25:20 And with them so slick
25:21 I mean, I hate to give him props with this.
25:23 But he's gotten to the point now
25:25 where sin now affects you
25:26 biologically and physically
25:29 where God says, your prayers gain and God does that.
25:32 He says but the prayer sometimes might lead you
25:34 to have to do certain other things, other things with...
25:38 I don't want to let anyone think
25:40 that prayer isn't important,
25:41 to walk with God isn't important,
25:43 that will do it.
25:44 And when you're connected
25:46 I think He'll tell you, "You know what?
25:47 Let's go in this direction to fix that."
25:50 Or God might say, "You know, stay right here.
25:52 Because I'm about to do something real in your life,
25:53 stay right here."
25:55 You know, we have some deep rooted stuff in our lives.
25:58 You know, and so we don't want
25:59 to just give a surface treatment,
26:01 that's why here you guys are saying,
26:02 we don't want to give a surface treatment.
26:04 You know, and think that we can just kind of
26:05 make up our minds to change and change.
26:07 No, a lot of this stuff it stems very, very deep
26:09 into our past baggage,
26:12 our genealogies, our parents, just our DNA.
26:15 I called it DNA deep sin.
26:17 So that was passed down to us
26:18 from one generation to the next.
26:19 And Pastor Seth, I think
26:21 that when we start discussing homosexuality.
26:23 And we start almost couching it
26:26 as if it's the super sin.
26:29 And we start dealing with it as if
26:30 "Man, it's going to be hard to overcome this."
26:32 That's when we really start seeing
26:35 how hard it will be to overcome our stuff.
26:38 That's when the power of sin really starts to surface
26:41 and we start to see how helpless we are.
26:44 And we need to stop applying our helplessness
26:47 only to the tier of super sins
26:49 but to all sin.
26:51 This is a problem. Yeah, and I'll agree.
26:53 That's why I would say that no matter what the struggle is
26:56 homosexuality, you know, immorality
26:59 if you're sleeping with, you know, 100 women
27:00 or whatever issue is
27:02 that number one I think accountability is good
27:04 and counseling is good,
27:06 but your walk with the Lord.
27:08 I mean, when you bathe yourself in the Word of God.
27:10 When you bathe yourself in prayer,
27:12 that plays a significant role in the victory process.
27:16 Right, but it's also remembering in that
27:18 because the reason why you're doing that
27:20 is because it's going to be a struggle.
27:23 And I think Pastor Moore talked about is going to be a battle.
27:26 And, you know, it's going to be constantly something
27:30 where you're going to need the strength of God.
27:33 Where there's going to be a tension
27:34 where you could easily fall back into.
27:37 And, you know, I think there's sometimes,
27:38 you know, God still delivers in different ways.
27:40 Some people they're delivered completely,
27:43 they don't have any inkling towards it anymore.
27:46 But like others some may have the thorn in the flesh
27:48 where you just are constantly aware,
27:51 all of us are always in need of Christ.
27:54 But it's just, there is that there is ever before you.
27:57 And so there's that struggle, there's a lot of struggle.
27:59 You know, this thing is, I mean I wish we had more time,
28:04 there's no way that we can just
28:05 really tackled this entire topic
28:07 in a 30 minute segment.
28:08 You know, that's why we started our Facebook page
28:11 at purechoicesfacebook./ purechoices,
28:13 where you can look us up.
28:15 You can ask us question, you can inbox us.
28:18 If you need some assistance,
28:19 we'll be more than willing to help you
28:21 find individuals in your community that can help,
28:23 you know, allow you get victory over whatever your struggle is.
28:26 Unfortunately, we're out of time today.
28:27 I want to thank you for joining us.
28:29 I look forward to do it again
28:31 next week, same time, same place.
28:33 We look forward to seeing you there.