Participants: Raymond King (Host), Mike Carducci (Host), Gene Nanton, Wayne Blakely, Ron Woolsey
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000028
00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:05 may be too candid for younger children.
00:40 Hi, I'm Wayne Blakely from Coming Out Ministries
00:43 and I'm your host today on Pure Choices.
00:46 Today, I have a panel with me, Elder Raymond King,
00:49 Mike Carducci, a ministry colleague of mine,
00:53 Gene Nanton, an elder, who has joined us
00:56 and Ron Woolsey, also a colleague and pastor.
01:00 Elder Raymond King has been with us,
01:04 with his ministry
01:06 and has, has been in this ministry
01:09 for a number of years about sexual purity.
01:11 Today, we're going to talk about a topic
01:14 that has been of great concern for me
01:17 and that is the topic of homophobia,
01:19 homophobia acidic zests in the church today.
01:23 Gene, could you share with us a little bit today,
01:26 some of your feelings
01:28 and what you have observed taking place in Christianity
01:31 and how it relates to the same sex attracted individual?
01:35 It seems to me more that the church is afraid
01:37 to deal with the issue.
01:39 That it's repressed
01:41 and it just doesn't get the exposure that it needs to,
01:44 as Jesus says, we gotta love everyone.
01:47 Right, exactly.
01:48 And we gotta love the sinner, even if we abhor the sin.
01:53 And I think it needs to come more out into the open
01:56 and we need to be able to discuss it
01:57 so that we can embrace our brothers,
01:59 whether they are gay or adulterers
02:01 or whatever we might be.
02:03 So it is too repressed.
02:05 Yes, I often say in my presentations
02:08 that, the sin that we don't talk about
02:11 is like a bacteria that grows in the dark.
02:14 It just gets bigger and bigger and bigger.
02:19 So for, for many of us this,
02:23 there's this era of being isolated
02:28 and that doesn't provide a very comfortable environment
02:33 when we walk into a church location,
02:36 that happened to me in my childhood.
02:38 I felt people that they were whispering about me,
02:41 they were pointing at me
02:43 and I wasn't even sure what my own problem was,
02:45 but it seemed like they were aware of what my problem was.
02:52 So, can we take a look
02:53 at how homophobia has looked in the past, in the church
02:58 and how it looks today,
02:59 is there a difference in that, Elder King?
03:02 I think to some degree it is,
03:04 but to other, in other, it's not.
03:08 I'm reminded about how I felt about it
03:12 before my interest into church.
03:16 In our culture, we actually look down upon individuals
03:22 who were feminine.
03:26 We use derogatory names,
03:30 we actually picked fun at them
03:34 but to a great degree, it was based upon ignorance.
03:39 And when I look at how I felt about it,
03:44 before me coming to the church
03:47 and how I felt about it once I got into the church,
03:50 there was no difference.
03:52 The difference did not come in my personal life
03:54 until I became acquainted,
03:57 more knowledgeable
03:58 about this whole thing called homosexuality.
04:02 And so when you ask the question,
04:05 is there any difference between the way it was before and now,
04:08 I believe that the same level of ignorance
04:12 is still experienced now as it was before.
04:16 And because that level of ignorance is still present,
04:21 we're not doing anything to be a benefit,
04:24 in actuality, we actually appall the problem.
04:28 Yeah, I think you're right.
04:31 You know, Mike, we've talked about this
04:33 just individually, one on one.
04:35 Do you think there is a different perception
04:37 from the person who is same sex attracted about,
04:40 what homophobia is versus,
04:43 you know, how it's thrown around in church culture today
04:46 and, and what the gay community kind of puts on,
04:49 the church culture, sometimes they're saying that,
04:51 "Oh, they're, they're homophobic?"
04:53 Is there a difference in how they perceive it
04:56 and how the church perceives it?
04:58 Well, you know, Wayne, we talked a lot about
05:01 one of the issues that we personally,
05:04 you know, have struggled with, has been this oversensitivity.
05:07 So it's difficult to know how much of that plays into,
05:11 you know, what we were experiencing
05:12 before we left the church.
05:14 I know for me personally, what was happening is,
05:17 I viewed their silence as a judgment.
05:20 I viewed the fact that there wasn't any legitimate resources
05:22 in the church to deal with what I was struggling with,
05:25 nor could I find anybody that I felt safe with
05:28 to open up about the issue that I was struggling with.
05:30 And what I was hearing in the community was that,
05:33 you know, homosexuality was a,
05:35 it was a sin that was so low
05:37 that we weren't even gonna address it.
05:39 It's almost like homosexuals weren't even worth saving,
05:42 like don't even waste your time.
05:44 And so when I left church culture
05:46 more than 30 years ago, as a 20-year-old man,
05:50 I left because there were no legitimate resources
05:52 in the church.
05:54 And what I wasn't getting, I mean, I was masking,
05:56 I was, I was covering up
05:57 what I was really struggling with for fear
05:59 that I would get found out,
06:00 for fear of even more judgment
06:02 or ridicule or even condemnation.
06:04 But when I walked out of church culture 30 years ago,
06:08 the general understanding was that
06:09 homosexuality wasn't something to talk about or redeemable.
06:13 And so basically,
06:14 that actually led the way for me
06:16 to walk right out of church culture.
06:18 What I found was 20 some years later,
06:21 when I came back into church culture,
06:23 what I found was it was almost like this paradigm shift
06:26 and as I began my own personal ministry,
06:30 what I found was,
06:31 that now there is the swing the other way
06:33 that homosexuality in church culture,
06:36 in Christianity,
06:37 is now considered an alternative lifestyle.
06:40 And what's happened is there are films to promote this,
06:43 there are actual pastors
06:44 that are promoting it in their churches
06:46 and causing a division in the churches saying,
06:48 "We need to let these homosexuals
06:50 come into church
06:52 and to be who they are without the hope of change."
06:56 And the real surprise to me is the fact that,
06:59 that makes Jesus Christ impotent.
07:00 It means that he is not able to reach out
07:03 and to save those people,
07:04 so for me, there is this huge change
07:06 from what I remember 30 years ago,
07:09 you know, that was very homophobic,
07:11 where as now it's swung almost the other way.
07:13 And what I found is I'm still in the middle,
07:16 you know, being under the attack of those
07:20 that think that it's an alternative life style,
07:22 when I clearly stand as a redeemed homosexual,
07:25 you know, whereas before, I was condemned
07:27 also because I was a homosexual without grace.
07:32 And I think there's almost this fault accusation
07:36 at the church, at times too, is that we don't always...
07:41 we don't always approve of what someone's behaviors are
07:45 but because we don't approve of them
07:47 or their lifestyle,
07:48 that doesn't mean that we don't love the individual.
07:51 So inside the church,
07:53 you know, when I share in the churches today,
07:55 to me, actually homophobia,
07:57 the insult of homophobia to me is the unwillingness
08:01 to be able to reach out with the love of Jesus Christ
08:04 and embrace, not just homosexuals,
08:06 but any sinner who is struggling out there,
08:10 that we need to look at individuals
08:12 and reflect the love of Jesus Christ to them
08:15 and draw them in, to gain more of His word,
08:20 His truth, His healing power,
08:22 and to me, that's an embracive message
08:25 to the gay community,
08:27 instead of one that is just,
08:30 maybe viewed as the gay community
08:31 views at sometimes, that's been that as homophobia.
08:35 Ron, what are your thoughts on this?
08:37 You know, when I was growing up in the church,
08:40 I was very silent about my struggle.
08:43 No one knew that I had a struggle,
08:45 but I suppose the thing that was so frustrating to me,
08:49 that left me without hope,
08:52 to the point that I left the church
08:54 like Mike did and you.
08:57 There were, you know, I'll reiterate what Mike said.
09:01 I was not aware of any resources.
09:03 The only thing I ever heard about homosexuality
09:07 from people in the church was denunciation,
09:11 out castes, something like you were saying, unredeemable.
09:15 And so I never knew who to go to talk to,
09:19 as this struggle became more and more intense in my mind,
09:23 I didn't know where to go.
09:24 And so eventually when I just threw in the towel
09:27 and gave upon God,
09:28 I just stopped praying about it all together.
09:31 I consented, I was married,
09:34 I had thought that marriage
09:35 would be the solution to my struggle.
09:37 What a terrible mistake!
09:39 And what a terrible thing to do to a Christian young lady
09:42 who is planning on being a minister's wife.
09:46 And a Christian home maker
09:47 and to find out that her husband married her
09:50 knowing about his struggle,
09:52 and it was just a terrible thing to do to her,
09:56 but I did it innocently.
09:58 But as we were going through our divorce,
10:02 I gave in to the suggestion
10:04 that we go seek some counseling.
10:06 So now in the first time,
10:07 for the first time in my entire life,
10:10 I went to counselors about the gay issue.
10:13 These were professionals, pastors, counselors,
10:17 psychiatrists, psychologists,
10:20 and this is where I felt the homophobia so strongly,
10:23 where I first experienced
10:24 such intense ignorance, I would say.
10:28 It wasn't a fear, it wasn't a hatred
10:32 but the rejection
10:34 because the bottom line, after all of this counseling,
10:38 my wife was encouraged to just divorce this man,
10:42 get on with your life, that kind can never change.
10:46 Now that's where it really hit me,
10:48 that even leaders in our church,
10:51 professional counselors, psychiatrists, and pastors,
10:54 had no answers for people like me.
10:56 So I went into the world very bitter
10:59 and angry against "God."
11:02 Because He can save others, but He could not save me
11:06 and so the implication is that, like you were saying,
11:10 God is impotent rather than omnipotent.
11:13 And that's where I really experienced
11:16 what we're calling homophobia, but really it was an ignorance,
11:21 just a lack of information,
11:22 and not really understanding the plan of salvation.
11:25 Right, you know, I like to comment,
11:27 piggy back on that,
11:30 as a redeemed homosexual
11:31 and the ministry that God has given me today
11:34 and given to you guys,
11:36 I have found that we go to great lengths
11:39 at setting in up,
11:40 speaking engagements at churches
11:42 and sometimes they take quite a spell of time
11:45 to get anti-speakers go to the church board
11:48 and it goes through, you know, quite a delineation
11:52 of deciding whether we will be allowed
11:54 to come and speak or not.
11:56 And once there, I frequently have pastors
11:59 that will come up to me and say to me afterwards,
12:02 "I just wanted you to know that,
12:04 that there were, you know,
12:05 three of my congregation that came to me and told me
12:09 that they would not be attending this weekend
12:11 due to the nature of the topic."
12:14 And so, you know,
12:15 it really doesn't faze me that much today as to,
12:18 you know, if you don't want to be there,
12:19 that's perfectly fine.
12:20 But what entices me into, to talk to the pastor
12:24 more about it or to kind of analyze this is,
12:27 is what is that's keeping this person away
12:31 that has, who is proclaiming to know Jesus,
12:34 who is proclaiming to be a Christian
12:36 and a believer in Jesus Christ.
12:38 If someone truly knows the love of Jesus Christ,
12:42 why wouldn't you want to be present
12:44 for a message such as this, are there comments
12:47 that any of you like to make on that?
12:53 One of the things that I've experienced
12:55 and we've all talked about this, Ron, Wayne,
12:57 and we've talked about how difficult it is to get past
13:02 if you would, that big brick wall of going into a church
13:05 and getting an opportunity to give our presentation.
13:09 The incredible thing
13:10 or the experience that I think all of us have had
13:12 each and every time,
13:13 is once we started to give this presentation,
13:16 people come forward,
13:18 exuberant about the fact that they thought
13:21 that they were gonna hear some awful story about,
13:23 being in the gay lifestyle
13:25 and all the things that we went through,
13:26 when, in fact, what they found
13:27 was the same redemption for a homosexual,
13:30 it's the same redemption for every sin.
13:32 And so we're always met with this resistance at first
13:35 and if we get an opportunity to get in the door,
13:38 then once we finally give our presentations,
13:40 the attitude really comes around
13:42 and that's been challenging to say the least.
13:45 Yes, yes.
13:46 I found a woman that was on her church board
13:50 I had heard about who really was campaigning
13:52 against my coming to the church.
13:56 And she didn't want me to be there
13:58 under any circumstances at all.
13:59 And I guess it was God's plan that when I was invited
14:03 and they did allow me to come and speak,
14:06 she did come throughout the entire weekend
14:08 and she went to the person afterwards
14:10 who had initiated the invitation
14:12 and said, "Thank you so much for inviting Wayne Blakely
14:17 to speak at our church."
14:18 Because it was nothing like
14:20 what she thought it was gonna be.
14:21 So I think it's that fear factor
14:24 about not knowing, are we going to be for it?
14:27 Are we gonna be against it?
14:29 You know, what are we gonna say about it?
14:30 Does somebody have somebody in their family that's gay
14:33 and is this gonna change their opinion
14:35 of how they feel about their own child?
14:38 And I have tried to put out there to people is that,
14:41 you know, we...
14:43 Like God loves us,
14:44 but God loved us while we were still sinners.
14:47 That's right.
14:48 We don't need to compromise truth
14:50 in order to keep loving our loved one.
14:53 Elder King, you know,
14:54 you've had this ministry with regards
14:56 just to sexual purity for sometime now.
14:59 You've really been out there and been bold and initially,
15:02 probably without very much support.
15:04 Can you tell me what you would say
15:06 to church leadership or to pastors today
15:11 that would help them change their mind
15:13 about being so stand-offish about inviting someone to come
15:17 and talk about the redemption of homosexuality?
15:21 One thing that has to be made known
15:24 is that the environment,
15:28 that a lot of our children visit everyday at school
15:32 is different from the environment
15:33 that their parents remember.
15:36 And because this promotion,
15:38 I call it the kind of fictionality,
15:40 the agenda to promote it, push it on our children,
15:44 expose them to it, as early as four years old,
15:47 is so great and so prevalent.
15:49 We have to start dealing with it
15:51 because if we don't start talking about it,
15:54 more and more of our children are now being,
15:59 I mean, they were evangelized into trying this out.
16:03 Evangelized into testing to see what they really are.
16:08 I have to admit that
16:09 one of the reasons that you may be seeing
16:13 or the rejection that you're seeing is because,
16:15 there are a lot more of our children
16:20 now come to their parents saying,
16:22 "Mom, Dad, I'm gay. I'm homosexual."
16:25 And if we can understand that
16:30 this is a demonic movement
16:33 to destroy young people as early as possible,
16:38 then we must also understand
16:39 that as the devil has increased his attack,
16:42 the church must come forward and show the truth,
16:45 because the Bible said, "The truth will set you free."
16:48 And so in answer to your question,
16:50 why is it important that pastors and church leaders
16:54 grab this bull by the horn,
16:55 because Satan is like the roaring lion
16:57 seeking who he may devour
16:59 and he's evangelizing
17:01 more and more about youngsters into his lifestyle.
17:04 We have to start dealing with it,
17:06 not only from a perspective of a ministry,
17:08 but also from a perspective of preventing
17:12 more and more of our youth,
17:15 to embrace in this movement or this agenda.
17:18 Right, right.
17:19 You know, Wayne, another story that came to my mind
17:21 as Elder King was talking is there was a situation
17:24 where this woman wanted me to come to their church
17:27 and she gave my information to the secretary.
17:30 And the secretary took that information
17:32 and basically just filed it,
17:34 and not until this woman got on to her and said,
17:36 "You need to call this guy about scheduling."
17:38 She finally called me and the conversation was,
17:42 "I don't care if you come,"
17:43 and she goes on that comment, she goes,
17:44 "I'm not really interested in hearing
17:46 what you have to say."
17:48 And I thought, "Well, that's interesting
17:49 that a church secretary would bother to call me
17:51 and to say that I was going before the board.
17:53 But then to tell me that she wasn't interested."
17:55 Well, as I basically tried to keep it open-ended
17:58 and just kind of explore, why?
18:00 She admitted that she had a son that was gay
18:03 and she was so tired of people getting in her face
18:06 and telling her why her son was gay.
18:08 And so as we started dialoguing,
18:09 all I could tell her was my experience.
18:12 I wasn't there to attack her son,
18:14 I wasn't there to attack her,
18:15 I was there to try to offer redemption for anyone,
18:19 whether it's a family member or a human being,
18:22 an individual they're struggling
18:23 within themselves.
18:24 And what happened is, just as I started sharing
18:26 what my testimony was, she started to soften,
18:29 she started to open up and, Wayne, as you remember,
18:31 she brought us into her home.
18:33 We actually stayed there
18:34 while we did those presentations,
18:35 and for her son now, her family is actually,
18:38 actively engaged in claiming back her son
18:41 from this homosexual lifestyle.
18:43 So what's amazing is,
18:44 her indifference and her defense against it,
18:46 was also keeping her
18:47 from praying for her own son.
18:49 And now, she is totally on board
18:50 and recognizing the power of the Holy Spirit
18:52 to intervene in her family.
18:54 This is I... Yes, this is the...
18:55 I'm sorry. Gene, go ahead.
18:57 This to me is the important of ministries like yours.
19:01 Because so often our churches are afraid to face it full on,
19:03 we have this fear, we have this lack of security,
19:07 we have this lack of resources.
19:09 But then, having you guys come to our church
19:12 made such a difference to that homophobia in our church.
19:17 It melted it, it made it disappear,
19:19 it made us see you guys
19:21 as people who have been redeemed.
19:24 And it showed us that we need redemption too.
19:27 And that, isn't that what Christ wants for all of us,
19:30 regardless of our situation?
19:33 You know, I would like to encourage,
19:34 I mean, there are probably our pastors,
19:36 and church members, and leaders
19:38 that are watching this program today.
19:40 And I would just like to suggest that
19:43 our type of conversion is considered to be
19:46 an extreme conversion.
19:47 I've heard that term before, this is an extreme conversion.
19:51 There is a fellow who came to me
19:53 after hearing titbits about my life,
19:55 before I ever even talked openly about it,
19:57 but he heard where I had come from,
20:00 and he came to me and he said,
20:02 "Man, Pastor Ron, if God can save you,
20:06 He can save anybody."
20:08 Amen. Amen
20:09 And so, what I would like to put out there
20:13 for the listening audience today is,
20:15 we come presenting the gospel and as people see
20:18 that God can save someone like Mike,
20:22 and Wayne, and Ron...
20:24 And me. Yeah, that's right.
20:26 Then they get it that God is mighty
20:29 to save the whosoever from whatsoever,
20:33 even to the uttermost.
20:34 And we have a...
20:37 we have a little niche that we can really
20:40 present the gospel in a special way
20:42 to a certain type of people that may feel hopeless.
20:46 And I'm not talking about just the homosexual issue.
20:49 There are number of types of people
20:51 that feel hopeless,
20:53 that salvation is for everyone else
20:55 but not for them.
20:56 And I really feel that God has called us from that,
21:00 this extreme conversion that we've had,
21:02 to demonstrate and to teach
21:04 that the gospel is for everybody.
21:07 Yes. That's right.
21:08 You know, the present,
21:09 one of the presentations that I give,
21:12 it's during the church service,
21:14 you know, many people have come to find out,
21:16 so what can I do to reach out to the homosexual?
21:20 Or what can I do to make somebody straight
21:23 or make them like me?
21:25 And so, one of the lines that I use is that,
21:28 "We can't share what we don't have."
21:31 And I have found in many congregations,
21:34 is that, what's lacking in many congregations
21:37 is the same intimacy with Jesus Christ,
21:40 that Jesus was convicting my heart
21:43 that I needed with Him.
21:44 So I want to draw the listeners and congregations
21:48 and also the viewers to engage with Jesus Christ
21:52 and get to know Him.
21:53 Spend that time, go to Jesus, go to His word,
21:57 go to parts of the word
21:58 where you know you're going to easily understand Him,
22:01 the gospels.
22:03 And then begin to spend time in prayer
22:06 and ask God to fill you with the Holy Spirit
22:09 and with truth because it's the truth
22:12 that sets us free.
22:13 And then as we are beginning to be filled
22:15 with the presence of Jesus in our lives,
22:18 He begins to open up opportunities for us to share
22:21 with others and it doesn't matter
22:23 then whether it's a homosexual,
22:26 a prostitute, somebody's full of pride,
22:28 somebody who is an overeater.
22:30 If we're living in the presence of God
22:33 and seeking to do His will,
22:35 that we don't go to someone
22:36 and we don't clover them over the head as though
22:39 we're going to set them straight,
22:41 but that we are going to love them
22:44 and that this Holy Spirit open up the opportunities
22:47 of which we can begin to bring
22:50 that person into the presence of God
22:52 so that they can have
22:53 and hear Jesus Christ speaking to them, themselves.
22:56 You know, Wayne,
22:57 it was a testimony that gave me hope.
23:00 It wasn't until I saw a testimony
23:02 that was outside of my denomination,
23:04 but when I watched it,
23:05 I recognized that if God could work in his life,
23:09 then he certainly could work in mine
23:10 and that was a turning point for me.
23:13 And I believe that,
23:15 Revelation speaks of it as well,
23:16 that they overcame and by the blood of the lamb
23:19 and by the word of their testimony.
23:21 And it doesn't say what they overcame,
23:23 so I believe that it's open, it's not just homosexuality.
23:25 That's right.
23:26 It's every sin problem by our testimony.
23:29 You know something, if the church,
23:32 if pastors, if leaders, start to make this a priority
23:38 as far as ministry is concerned,
23:40 it creates a safe haven,
23:43 inviting our element or inviting environment
23:46 for people who are struggling.
23:49 A lot of times, people,
23:51 there are many of the people who are struggling
23:53 but as you said, where do I go?
23:56 But if churches start to deal with this,
24:00 it gives individuals who are struggling permission,
24:03 to start coming down and talking about it.
24:05 One thing we did was
24:07 we had a public forum in our city
24:10 and we actually invited homosexual pastors
24:13 who had their own churches to this public forum
24:16 and what happened was the people who showed up,
24:22 who may have had some type of apprehension
24:24 about being around homosexuals,
24:27 when they saw all these people, as people,
24:31 it changed the whole perspective.
24:34 And so it is really interesting because I was wondering,
24:36 will people show up, you know.
24:38 But people said, like you said earlier,
24:41 thank you for having us because now,
24:43 I have a different perspective.
24:44 The only thing that prevents us
24:46 from being successful in our ministry
24:50 is that we let things to minister.
24:52 And I submit that,
24:53 that the devil is trying to keep us locked up
24:56 in this ignorance but if we start believing
24:58 in the scriptures that God can do anything
25:01 and then putting God to the test,
25:02 I believe we'll start seeing some things happening.
25:04 So homophobia is a fear of right,
25:07 and we know that perfect love castes out fear,
25:10 is it possible...
25:12 Castes out fear. All fear.
25:13 That's right, all fear.
25:14 So is it possible then that the homophobia
25:16 that we're experiencing in the church
25:17 is really nothing more than symptomatic
25:20 of the fact that people in the church
25:22 who are experiencing this homophobia,
25:24 this fear of anything,
25:25 they're not in touch with the goodness of God,
25:28 the love that Jesus has for each one of us.
25:30 So again, if we can break down the homophobia,
25:33 I believe then we can create a safe environment
25:35 where people can come in and experience redemption
25:38 through authentic experiences.
25:41 But would you also say that we should not make a mistake
25:44 in labeling homophobia?
25:48 Other words,
25:49 if we do not accept the activity
25:53 that is what we have been labeled,
25:56 those who did not accept the entire package
25:58 have been labeled homophobic,
26:00 but we are not homophobic in regards to the activity,
26:04 I mean, the person,
26:05 we're homophobic to the activity,
26:07 that is what, we don't embrace the activity.
26:10 What's trying to be, we're trying to label churches,
26:14 if you all don't accept the scenario into our package,
26:16 then you're homophobic,
26:17 and with that resource in us
26:19 not saying anything about anything,
26:20 we're gonna need to get out of that mass, at His will.
26:22 Yeah, that's the wrong message.
26:24 We need, yeah, it comes back to loving the sinner,
26:28 not the sin.
26:29 And so, you know,
26:30 I'd like to point a little bit here too,
26:34 that when we were brought back to Jesus Christ,
26:37 it was through divine intervention
26:40 and that has been something
26:41 that the church has counted on for,
26:42 you know, a 150 years of the denomination
26:45 that I'm connected with,
26:46 is that God will take care of this,
26:48 but we need to recognize
26:50 that each and every member of our churches
26:53 are disciples of Christ.
26:55 And so they need to be able
26:57 to come in contact with Jesus themselves
27:00 and be able to see their role in being able to reach out
27:04 to someone who is desperately hungry
27:06 for the love of Jesus Christ.
27:09 So again, it's not about the clobber techniques
27:11 because somebody, you know,
27:12 it wasn't any of us
27:14 that a church member came to and took the Bible and said,
27:17 "Listen, you will not commit this sin."
27:19 You know, it's the gay...
27:22 That comes back to that person on the street corner
27:25 that's holding up the sign that says "God hates facts."
27:27 That's not gonna draw someone into the church.
27:30 So as an audience, as a pastor,
27:32 as somebody who is a believer in Jesus Christ,
27:35 I would invite you to engage with Him
27:38 and then begin to see what He can do
27:40 with your life in drawing others
27:43 to come to Jesus Christ and come to recognize
27:46 and enjoy that love in Jesus Christ.
27:48 Please join us again, here on Pure Choices.