Participants: Raymond King (Host), Mike Carducci (Host), Gene Nanton, Wayne Blakely, Ron Woolsey
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000028
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:40 Hi, I'm Wayne Blakely from Coming Out Ministries 00:43 and I'm your host today on Pure Choices. 00:46 Today, I have a panel with me, Elder Raymond King, 00:49 Mike Carducci, a ministry colleague of mine, 00:53 Gene Nanton, an elder, who has joined us 00:56 and Ron Woolsey, also a colleague and pastor. 01:00 Elder Raymond King has been with us, 01:04 with his ministry 01:06 and has, has been in this ministry 01:09 for a number of years about sexual purity. 01:11 Today, we're going to talk about a topic 01:14 that has been of great concern for me 01:17 and that is the topic of homophobia, 01:19 homophobia acidic zests in the church today. 01:23 Gene, could you share with us a little bit today, 01:26 some of your feelings 01:28 and what you have observed taking place in Christianity 01:31 and how it relates to the same sex attracted individual? 01:35 It seems to me more that the church is afraid 01:37 to deal with the issue. 01:39 That it's repressed 01:41 and it just doesn't get the exposure that it needs to, 01:44 as Jesus says, we gotta love everyone. 01:47 Right, exactly. 01:48 And we gotta love the sinner, even if we abhor the sin. 01:51 Right. 01:53 And I think it needs to come more out into the open 01:56 and we need to be able to discuss it 01:57 so that we can embrace our brothers, 01:59 whether they are gay or adulterers 02:01 or whatever we might be. 02:03 So it is too repressed. 02:05 Yes, I often say in my presentations 02:08 that, the sin that we don't talk about 02:11 is like a bacteria that grows in the dark. 02:14 It just gets bigger and bigger and bigger. 02:19 So for, for many of us this, 02:23 there's this era of being isolated 02:28 and that doesn't provide a very comfortable environment 02:33 when we walk into a church location, 02:36 that happened to me in my childhood. 02:38 I felt people that they were whispering about me, 02:41 they were pointing at me 02:43 and I wasn't even sure what my own problem was, 02:45 but it seemed like they were aware of what my problem was. 02:52 So, can we take a look 02:53 at how homophobia has looked in the past, in the church 02:58 and how it looks today, 02:59 is there a difference in that, Elder King? 03:02 I think to some degree it is, 03:04 but to other, in other, it's not. 03:08 I'm reminded about how I felt about it 03:12 before my interest into church. 03:16 In our culture, we actually look down upon individuals 03:22 who were feminine. 03:26 We use derogatory names, 03:30 we actually picked fun at them 03:34 but to a great degree, it was based upon ignorance. 03:39 And when I look at how I felt about it, 03:44 before me coming to the church 03:47 and how I felt about it once I got into the church, 03:50 there was no difference. 03:52 The difference did not come in my personal life 03:54 until I became acquainted, 03:57 more knowledgeable 03:58 about this whole thing called homosexuality. 04:02 And so when you ask the question, 04:05 is there any difference between the way it was before and now, 04:08 I believe that the same level of ignorance 04:12 is still experienced now as it was before. 04:16 And because that level of ignorance is still present, 04:21 we're not doing anything to be a benefit, 04:24 in actuality, we actually appall the problem. 04:28 Yeah, I think you're right. 04:31 You know, Mike, we've talked about this 04:33 just individually, one on one. 04:35 Do you think there is a different perception 04:37 from the person who is same sex attracted about, 04:40 what homophobia is versus, 04:43 you know, how it's thrown around in church culture today 04:46 and, and what the gay community kind of puts on, 04:49 the church culture, sometimes they're saying that, 04:51 "Oh, they're, they're homophobic?" 04:53 Is there a difference in how they perceive it 04:56 and how the church perceives it? 04:58 Well, you know, Wayne, we talked a lot about 05:01 one of the issues that we personally, 05:04 you know, have struggled with, has been this oversensitivity. 05:07 So it's difficult to know how much of that plays into, 05:11 you know, what we were experiencing 05:12 before we left the church. 05:14 I know for me personally, what was happening is, 05:17 I viewed their silence as a judgment. 05:20 I viewed the fact that there wasn't any legitimate resources 05:22 in the church to deal with what I was struggling with, 05:25 nor could I find anybody that I felt safe with 05:28 to open up about the issue that I was struggling with. 05:30 And what I was hearing in the community was that, 05:33 you know, homosexuality was a, 05:35 it was a sin that was so low 05:37 that we weren't even gonna address it. 05:39 It's almost like homosexuals weren't even worth saving, 05:42 like don't even waste your time. 05:44 And so when I left church culture 05:46 more than 30 years ago, as a 20-year-old man, 05:50 I left because there were no legitimate resources 05:52 in the church. 05:54 And what I wasn't getting, I mean, I was masking, 05:56 I was, I was covering up 05:57 what I was really struggling with for fear 05:59 that I would get found out, 06:00 for fear of even more judgment 06:02 or ridicule or even condemnation. 06:04 But when I walked out of church culture 30 years ago, 06:08 the general understanding was that 06:09 homosexuality wasn't something to talk about or redeemable. 06:13 And so basically, 06:14 that actually led the way for me 06:16 to walk right out of church culture. 06:18 What I found was 20 some years later, 06:21 when I came back into church culture, 06:23 what I found was it was almost like this paradigm shift 06:26 and as I began my own personal ministry, 06:30 what I found was, 06:31 that now there is the swing the other way 06:33 that homosexuality in church culture, 06:36 in Christianity, 06:37 is now considered an alternative lifestyle. 06:40 And what's happened is there are films to promote this, 06:43 there are actual pastors 06:44 that are promoting it in their churches 06:46 and causing a division in the churches saying, 06:48 "We need to let these homosexuals 06:50 come into church 06:52 and to be who they are without the hope of change." 06:56 And the real surprise to me is the fact that, 06:59 that makes Jesus Christ impotent. 07:00 It means that he is not able to reach out 07:03 and to save those people, 07:04 so for me, there is this huge change 07:06 from what I remember 30 years ago, 07:09 you know, that was very homophobic, 07:11 where as now it's swung almost the other way. 07:13 And what I found is I'm still in the middle, 07:16 you know, being under the attack of those 07:20 that think that it's an alternative life style, 07:22 when I clearly stand as a redeemed homosexual, 07:25 you know, whereas before, I was condemned 07:27 also because I was a homosexual without grace. 07:31 Yes. 07:32 And I think there's almost this fault accusation 07:36 at the church, at times too, is that we don't always... 07:41 we don't always approve of what someone's behaviors are 07:45 but because we don't approve of them 07:47 or their lifestyle, 07:48 that doesn't mean that we don't love the individual. 07:51 So inside the church, 07:53 you know, when I share in the churches today, 07:55 to me, actually homophobia, 07:57 the insult of homophobia to me is the unwillingness 08:01 to be able to reach out with the love of Jesus Christ 08:04 and embrace, not just homosexuals, 08:06 but any sinner who is struggling out there, 08:10 that we need to look at individuals 08:12 and reflect the love of Jesus Christ to them 08:15 and draw them in, to gain more of His word, 08:20 His truth, His healing power, 08:22 and to me, that's an embracive message 08:25 to the gay community, 08:27 instead of one that is just, 08:30 maybe viewed as the gay community 08:31 views at sometimes, that's been that as homophobia. 08:35 Ron, what are your thoughts on this? 08:37 You know, when I was growing up in the church, 08:40 I was very silent about my struggle. 08:43 No one knew that I had a struggle, 08:45 but I suppose the thing that was so frustrating to me, 08:49 that left me without hope, 08:52 to the point that I left the church 08:54 like Mike did and you. 08:57 There were, you know, I'll reiterate what Mike said. 09:01 I was not aware of any resources. 09:03 The only thing I ever heard about homosexuality 09:07 from people in the church was denunciation, 09:11 out castes, something like you were saying, unredeemable. 09:15 And so I never knew who to go to talk to, 09:19 as this struggle became more and more intense in my mind, 09:23 I didn't know where to go. 09:24 And so eventually when I just threw in the towel 09:27 and gave upon God, 09:28 I just stopped praying about it all together. 09:31 I consented, I was married, 09:34 I had thought that marriage 09:35 would be the solution to my struggle. 09:37 What a terrible mistake! 09:39 And what a terrible thing to do to a Christian young lady 09:42 who is planning on being a minister's wife. 09:44 Yes. 09:46 And a Christian home maker 09:47 and to find out that her husband married her 09:50 knowing about his struggle, 09:52 and it was just a terrible thing to do to her, 09:56 but I did it innocently. 09:58 But as we were going through our divorce, 10:02 I gave in to the suggestion 10:04 that we go seek some counseling. 10:06 So now in the first time, 10:07 for the first time in my entire life, 10:10 I went to counselors about the gay issue. 10:13 These were professionals, pastors, counselors, 10:17 psychiatrists, psychologists, 10:20 and this is where I felt the homophobia so strongly, 10:23 where I first experienced 10:24 such intense ignorance, I would say. 10:28 It wasn't a fear, it wasn't a hatred 10:32 but the rejection 10:34 because the bottom line, after all of this counseling, 10:38 my wife was encouraged to just divorce this man, 10:42 get on with your life, that kind can never change. 10:46 Now that's where it really hit me, 10:48 that even leaders in our church, 10:51 professional counselors, psychiatrists, and pastors, 10:54 had no answers for people like me. 10:56 So I went into the world very bitter 10:59 and angry against "God." 11:01 Right. 11:02 Because He can save others, but He could not save me 11:06 and so the implication is that, like you were saying, 11:10 God is impotent rather than omnipotent. 11:13 And that's where I really experienced 11:16 what we're calling homophobia, but really it was an ignorance, 11:21 just a lack of information, 11:22 and not really understanding the plan of salvation. 11:25 Right, you know, I like to comment, 11:27 piggy back on that, 11:30 as a redeemed homosexual 11:31 and the ministry that God has given me today 11:34 and given to you guys, 11:36 I have found that we go to great lengths 11:39 at setting in up, 11:40 speaking engagements at churches 11:42 and sometimes they take quite a spell of time 11:45 to get anti-speakers go to the church board 11:48 and it goes through, you know, quite a delineation 11:52 of deciding whether we will be allowed 11:54 to come and speak or not. 11:56 And once there, I frequently have pastors 11:59 that will come up to me and say to me afterwards, 12:02 "I just wanted you to know that, 12:04 that there were, you know, 12:05 three of my congregation that came to me and told me 12:09 that they would not be attending this weekend 12:11 due to the nature of the topic." 12:14 And so, you know, 12:15 it really doesn't faze me that much today as to, 12:18 you know, if you don't want to be there, 12:19 that's perfectly fine. 12:20 But what entices me into, to talk to the pastor 12:24 more about it or to kind of analyze this is, 12:27 is what is that's keeping this person away 12:31 that has, who is proclaiming to know Jesus, 12:34 who is proclaiming to be a Christian 12:36 and a believer in Jesus Christ. 12:38 If someone truly knows the love of Jesus Christ, 12:42 why wouldn't you want to be present 12:44 for a message such as this, are there comments 12:47 that any of you like to make on that? 12:53 One of the things that I've experienced 12:55 and we've all talked about this, Ron, Wayne, 12:57 and we've talked about how difficult it is to get past 13:02 if you would, that big brick wall of going into a church 13:05 and getting an opportunity to give our presentation. 13:09 The incredible thing 13:10 or the experience that I think all of us have had 13:12 each and every time, 13:13 is once we started to give this presentation, 13:16 people come forward, 13:18 exuberant about the fact that they thought 13:21 that they were gonna hear some awful story about, 13:23 being in the gay lifestyle 13:25 and all the things that we went through, 13:26 when, in fact, what they found 13:27 was the same redemption for a homosexual, 13:30 it's the same redemption for every sin. 13:32 And so we're always met with this resistance at first 13:35 and if we get an opportunity to get in the door, 13:38 then once we finally give our presentations, 13:40 the attitude really comes around 13:42 and that's been challenging to say the least. 13:45 Yes, yes. 13:46 I found a woman that was on her church board 13:50 I had heard about who really was campaigning 13:52 against my coming to the church. 13:56 And she didn't want me to be there 13:58 under any circumstances at all. 13:59 And I guess it was God's plan that when I was invited 14:03 and they did allow me to come and speak, 14:06 she did come throughout the entire weekend 14:08 and she went to the person afterwards 14:10 who had initiated the invitation 14:12 and said, "Thank you so much for inviting Wayne Blakely 14:17 to speak at our church." 14:18 Because it was nothing like 14:20 what she thought it was gonna be. 14:21 So I think it's that fear factor 14:24 about not knowing, are we going to be for it? 14:27 Are we gonna be against it? 14:29 You know, what are we gonna say about it? 14:30 Does somebody have somebody in their family that's gay 14:33 and is this gonna change their opinion 14:35 of how they feel about their own child? 14:38 And I have tried to put out there to people is that, 14:41 you know, we... 14:43 Like God loves us, 14:44 but God loved us while we were still sinners. 14:47 That's right. 14:48 We don't need to compromise truth 14:50 in order to keep loving our loved one. 14:53 Elder King, you know, 14:54 you've had this ministry with regards 14:56 just to sexual purity for sometime now. 14:59 You've really been out there and been bold and initially, 15:02 probably without very much support. 15:04 Can you tell me what you would say 15:06 to church leadership or to pastors today 15:11 that would help them change their mind 15:13 about being so stand-offish about inviting someone to come 15:17 and talk about the redemption of homosexuality? 15:21 One thing that has to be made known 15:24 is that the environment, 15:28 that a lot of our children visit everyday at school 15:32 is different from the environment 15:33 that their parents remember. 15:36 And because this promotion, 15:38 I call it the kind of fictionality, 15:40 the agenda to promote it, push it on our children, 15:44 expose them to it, as early as four years old, 15:47 is so great and so prevalent. 15:49 We have to start dealing with it 15:51 because if we don't start talking about it, 15:54 more and more of our children are now being, 15:59 I mean, they were evangelized into trying this out. 16:03 Evangelized into testing to see what they really are. 16:08 I have to admit that 16:09 one of the reasons that you may be seeing 16:13 or the rejection that you're seeing is because, 16:15 there are a lot more of our children 16:20 now come to their parents saying, 16:22 "Mom, Dad, I'm gay. I'm homosexual." 16:25 And if we can understand that 16:30 this is a demonic movement 16:33 to destroy young people as early as possible, 16:38 then we must also understand 16:39 that as the devil has increased his attack, 16:42 the church must come forward and show the truth, 16:45 because the Bible said, "The truth will set you free." 16:48 And so in answer to your question, 16:50 why is it important that pastors and church leaders 16:54 grab this bull by the horn, 16:55 because Satan is like the roaring lion 16:57 seeking who he may devour 16:59 and he's evangelizing 17:01 more and more about youngsters into his lifestyle. 17:04 We have to start dealing with it, 17:06 not only from a perspective of a ministry, 17:08 but also from a perspective of preventing 17:12 more and more of our youth, 17:15 to embrace in this movement or this agenda. 17:18 Right, right. 17:19 You know, Wayne, another story that came to my mind 17:21 as Elder King was talking is there was a situation 17:24 where this woman wanted me to come to their church 17:27 and she gave my information to the secretary. 17:30 And the secretary took that information 17:32 and basically just filed it, 17:34 and not until this woman got on to her and said, 17:36 "You need to call this guy about scheduling." 17:38 She finally called me and the conversation was, 17:42 "I don't care if you come," 17:43 and she goes on that comment, she goes, 17:44 "I'm not really interested in hearing 17:46 what you have to say." 17:48 And I thought, "Well, that's interesting 17:49 that a church secretary would bother to call me 17:51 and to say that I was going before the board. 17:53 But then to tell me that she wasn't interested." 17:55 Well, as I basically tried to keep it open-ended 17:58 and just kind of explore, why? 18:00 She admitted that she had a son that was gay 18:03 and she was so tired of people getting in her face 18:06 and telling her why her son was gay. 18:08 And so as we started dialoguing, 18:09 all I could tell her was my experience. 18:12 I wasn't there to attack her son, 18:14 I wasn't there to attack her, 18:15 I was there to try to offer redemption for anyone, 18:19 whether it's a family member or a human being, 18:22 an individual they're struggling 18:23 within themselves. 18:24 And what happened is, just as I started sharing 18:26 what my testimony was, she started to soften, 18:29 she started to open up and, Wayne, as you remember, 18:31 she brought us into her home. 18:33 We actually stayed there 18:34 while we did those presentations, 18:35 and for her son now, her family is actually, 18:38 actively engaged in claiming back her son 18:41 from this homosexual lifestyle. 18:43 So what's amazing is, 18:44 her indifference and her defense against it, 18:46 was also keeping her 18:47 from praying for her own son. 18:49 And now, she is totally on board 18:50 and recognizing the power of the Holy Spirit 18:52 to intervene in her family. 18:54 This is I... Yes, this is the... 18:55 I'm sorry. Gene, go ahead. 18:57 This to me is the important of ministries like yours. 18:59 Yes. 19:01 Because so often our churches are afraid to face it full on, 19:03 we have this fear, we have this lack of security, 19:07 we have this lack of resources. 19:09 But then, having you guys come to our church 19:12 made such a difference to that homophobia in our church. 19:17 It melted it, it made it disappear, 19:19 it made us see you guys 19:21 as people who have been redeemed. 19:23 Absolutely. 19:24 And it showed us that we need redemption too. 19:27 And that, isn't that what Christ wants for all of us, 19:30 regardless of our situation? 19:32 Yes. 19:33 You know, I would like to encourage, 19:34 I mean, there are probably our pastors, 19:36 and church members, and leaders 19:38 that are watching this program today. 19:40 And I would just like to suggest that 19:43 our type of conversion is considered to be 19:46 an extreme conversion. 19:47 I've heard that term before, this is an extreme conversion. 19:51 There is a fellow who came to me 19:53 after hearing titbits about my life, 19:55 before I ever even talked openly about it, 19:57 but he heard where I had come from, 20:00 and he came to me and he said, 20:02 "Man, Pastor Ron, if God can save you, 20:06 He can save anybody." 20:08 Amen. Amen 20:09 And so, what I would like to put out there 20:13 for the listening audience today is, 20:15 we come presenting the gospel and as people see 20:18 that God can save someone like Mike, 20:22 and Wayne, and Ron... 20:24 And me. Yeah, that's right. 20:26 Then they get it that God is mighty 20:29 to save the whosoever from whatsoever, 20:33 even to the uttermost. 20:34 And we have a... 20:37 we have a little niche that we can really 20:40 present the gospel in a special way 20:42 to a certain type of people that may feel hopeless. 20:46 And I'm not talking about just the homosexual issue. 20:47 Right. 20:49 There are number of types of people 20:51 that feel hopeless, 20:53 that salvation is for everyone else 20:55 but not for them. 20:56 And I really feel that God has called us from that, 21:00 this extreme conversion that we've had, 21:02 to demonstrate and to teach 21:04 that the gospel is for everybody. 21:07 Yes. That's right. 21:08 You know, the present, 21:09 one of the presentations that I give, 21:12 it's during the church service, 21:14 you know, many people have come to find out, 21:16 so what can I do to reach out to the homosexual? 21:20 Or what can I do to make somebody straight 21:23 or make them like me? 21:25 And so, one of the lines that I use is that, 21:28 "We can't share what we don't have." 21:31 And I have found in many congregations, 21:34 is that, what's lacking in many congregations 21:37 is the same intimacy with Jesus Christ, 21:40 that Jesus was convicting my heart 21:43 that I needed with Him. 21:44 So I want to draw the listeners and congregations 21:48 and also the viewers to engage with Jesus Christ 21:52 and get to know Him. 21:53 Spend that time, go to Jesus, go to His word, 21:57 go to parts of the word 21:58 where you know you're going to easily understand Him, 22:01 the gospels. 22:03 And then begin to spend time in prayer 22:06 and ask God to fill you with the Holy Spirit 22:09 and with truth because it's the truth 22:12 that sets us free. 22:13 And then as we are beginning to be filled 22:15 with the presence of Jesus in our lives, 22:18 He begins to open up opportunities for us to share 22:21 with others and it doesn't matter 22:23 then whether it's a homosexual, 22:26 a prostitute, somebody's full of pride, 22:28 somebody who is an overeater. 22:30 If we're living in the presence of God 22:33 and seeking to do His will, 22:35 that we don't go to someone 22:36 and we don't clover them over the head as though 22:39 we're going to set them straight, 22:41 but that we are going to love them 22:44 and that this Holy Spirit open up the opportunities 22:47 of which we can begin to bring 22:50 that person into the presence of God 22:52 so that they can have 22:53 and hear Jesus Christ speaking to them, themselves. 22:56 You know, Wayne, 22:57 it was a testimony that gave me hope. 23:00 It wasn't until I saw a testimony 23:02 that was outside of my denomination, 23:04 but when I watched it, 23:05 I recognized that if God could work in his life, 23:09 then he certainly could work in mine 23:10 and that was a turning point for me. 23:13 And I believe that, 23:15 Revelation speaks of it as well, 23:16 that they overcame and by the blood of the lamb 23:19 and by the word of their testimony. 23:20 Amen. 23:21 And it doesn't say what they overcame, 23:23 so I believe that it's open, it's not just homosexuality. 23:25 That's right. 23:26 It's every sin problem by our testimony. 23:29 You know something, if the church, 23:32 if pastors, if leaders, start to make this a priority 23:38 as far as ministry is concerned, 23:40 it creates a safe haven, 23:43 inviting our element or inviting environment 23:46 for people who are struggling. 23:47 Yes. 23:49 A lot of times, people, 23:51 there are many of the people who are struggling 23:53 but as you said, where do I go? 23:56 But if churches start to deal with this, 24:00 it gives individuals who are struggling permission, 24:03 to start coming down and talking about it. 24:05 One thing we did was 24:07 we had a public forum in our city 24:10 and we actually invited homosexual pastors 24:13 who had their own churches to this public forum 24:16 and what happened was the people who showed up, 24:22 who may have had some type of apprehension 24:24 about being around homosexuals, 24:27 when they saw all these people, as people, 24:31 it changed the whole perspective. 24:32 Yes. 24:34 And so it is really interesting because I was wondering, 24:36 will people show up, you know. 24:38 But people said, like you said earlier, 24:41 thank you for having us because now, 24:43 I have a different perspective. 24:44 The only thing that prevents us 24:46 from being successful in our ministry 24:50 is that we let things to minister. 24:52 And I submit that, 24:53 that the devil is trying to keep us locked up 24:56 in this ignorance but if we start believing 24:58 in the scriptures that God can do anything 25:01 and then putting God to the test, 25:02 I believe we'll start seeing some things happening. 25:04 So homophobia is a fear of right, 25:07 and we know that perfect love castes out fear, 25:10 is it possible... 25:12 Castes out fear. All fear. 25:13 That's right, all fear. 25:14 So is it possible then that the homophobia 25:16 that we're experiencing in the church 25:17 is really nothing more than symptomatic 25:20 of the fact that people in the church 25:22 who are experiencing this homophobia, 25:24 this fear of anything, 25:25 they're not in touch with the goodness of God, 25:28 the love that Jesus has for each one of us. 25:30 So again, if we can break down the homophobia, 25:33 I believe then we can create a safe environment 25:35 where people can come in and experience redemption 25:38 through authentic experiences. 25:41 But would you also say that we should not make a mistake 25:44 in labeling homophobia? 25:48 Other words, 25:49 if we do not accept the activity 25:53 that is what we have been labeled, 25:56 those who did not accept the entire package 25:58 have been labeled homophobic, 26:00 but we are not homophobic in regards to the activity, 26:04 I mean, the person, 26:05 we're homophobic to the activity, 26:07 that is what, we don't embrace the activity. 26:08 Okay. 26:10 What's trying to be, we're trying to label churches, 26:14 if you all don't accept the scenario into our package, 26:16 then you're homophobic, 26:17 and with that resource in us 26:19 not saying anything about anything, 26:20 we're gonna need to get out of that mass, at His will. 26:22 Yeah, that's the wrong message. 26:24 We need, yeah, it comes back to loving the sinner, 26:28 not the sin. 26:29 And so, you know, 26:30 I'd like to point a little bit here too, 26:34 that when we were brought back to Jesus Christ, 26:37 it was through divine intervention 26:40 and that has been something 26:41 that the church has counted on for, 26:42 you know, a 150 years of the denomination 26:45 that I'm connected with, 26:46 is that God will take care of this, 26:48 but we need to recognize 26:50 that each and every member of our churches 26:53 are disciples of Christ. 26:55 And so they need to be able 26:57 to come in contact with Jesus themselves 27:00 and be able to see their role in being able to reach out 27:04 to someone who is desperately hungry 27:06 for the love of Jesus Christ. 27:08 Amen. 27:09 So again, it's not about the clobber techniques 27:11 because somebody, you know, 27:12 it wasn't any of us 27:14 that a church member came to and took the Bible and said, 27:17 "Listen, you will not commit this sin." 27:19 You know, it's the gay... 27:22 That comes back to that person on the street corner 27:25 that's holding up the sign that says "God hates facts." 27:27 That's not gonna draw someone into the church. 27:30 So as an audience, as a pastor, 27:32 as somebody who is a believer in Jesus Christ, 27:35 I would invite you to engage with Him 27:38 and then begin to see what He can do 27:40 with your life in drawing others 27:43 to come to Jesus Christ and come to recognize 27:46 and enjoy that love in Jesus Christ. 27:48 Please join us again, here on Pure Choices. |
Revised 2017-05-04