Participants: Mike Carducci (Host), Raymond King
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000029
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:41 Hi, I'm Mike Carducci with Coming Out Ministries, 00:44 your host today on "Pure Choices." 00:47 I have with me my guest Elder Raymond King 00:49 of Securing Hope Ministry. 00:51 Welcome Elder King. Thanks for having me. 00:53 My pleasure. 00:55 One in the issues that I remember definitely 00:57 when I was in the gay lifestyle which has been my history 01:01 is I knew that there weren't many masculine 01:05 African-American homosexuals 01:08 and I remember that being interesting to me 01:10 that they usually, the only, 01:13 you know, young African-American men 01:15 that we saw were very feminine. 01:18 And I remember it being kind of curious 01:20 to my mind like where were they, 01:22 you know, like where was that populist 01:23 and it wasn't until actually 01:25 after I come out of the gay lifestyle 01:27 and into ministry that I recognize that there's this, 01:31 this movement or whatever called, 01:34 the down low culture. 01:36 And so, Elder King, 01:37 you specialize in this area from your research 01:41 and I wonder would you tell us a little bit, 01:43 what's the definition of down low culture 01:45 and how does that relate 01:46 to the African-American community? 01:48 Well, the term down low 01:50 basically is what we identify men 01:56 who tend to be heterosexual but really are homosexual. 02:03 They're individuals that in the sense are married, 02:08 they have families, they have the facade 02:13 of being again macho, he-man type of individuals, 02:20 but in reality they sneak around 02:23 and they are involved in homosexual activity. 02:27 So, we called the down low because it is secretive. 02:32 It is so secretive that in many instances, 02:36 the wife or the girlfriend of these individuals 02:40 have no idea that these men have this secret sex life. 02:46 I would also say that in many instances 02:50 we can associate this term with men, 02:55 but more and more the women also now, 02:58 who had this type of façade that they are pretending. 03:05 So the down low can be both men and women 03:08 even though in most instances, we are referring to men. 03:13 Okay, and because you're not a homosexual 03:17 that come from that past, 03:19 something happened in your life that brought this issue 03:22 to a very personal aspect for you. 03:25 Could you elaborate on that for us? 03:27 Yes, in the book that I wrote dealing with this, 03:32 I'll talk about my brother 03:33 who unfortunately was also involved in this culture. 03:40 I found out about this, about a month before he died 03:45 or he actually went out committing suicide. 03:48 Well, though unfortunate about this whole scenario 03:51 however was the fact that, 03:52 I found out that he also was molested 03:56 when he was the child. 03:57 But he also got connected with a religious sect 04:04 that considered this type of activity 04:09 a biblically approved activity. 04:15 I mean it's real weird 04:18 how people can take the Scriptures 04:21 and justify perversion, but, be there at the may, 04:24 he was married, he had children 04:26 but yet he was secretly involved with other males 04:32 while he was married and so even though the, 04:38 the situation was not the sole motivation for me 04:41 writing the book. 04:43 I did include that in the book because one of the things that 04:47 we must understand as the body of Christ, 04:50 God considered us to be one body. 04:53 And I tell people if I'm part of the body, 04:56 what I do effects you positively or negatively. 04:59 What you do affects me 05:01 because God said we are one body 05:03 and so be there at the may, 05:05 I submit that we have to start 05:09 to deal with reality and not cover things up, 05:13 because the more we cover things up, 05:16 the more things will fester 05:18 and we give Satan the license, 05:21 the authority and we actually, 05:24 it able him to keep destroying lives. 05:27 And so this down low thing 05:29 that I wrote about is hopefully a means 05:31 by which we can start bringing things to open. 05:33 That's right. 05:34 So, Elder King, would you agree that, 05:36 that which we keep in darkness, will eventually overcome us? 05:39 Most definitely. 05:41 As a matter of fact, Satan loves darkness. 05:45 It is the light that, 05:46 that he is shun from and what I am finding out, 05:52 the whole down low culture 05:54 is based upon deception and darkness. 05:56 Doing things under cover, 05:58 where it's not brought to the light 06:00 and because of that, there are many lives, 06:03 there are many generations 06:04 that have been adversely affected 06:06 because of men and women but primarily men 06:09 they're on the down low. 06:11 Okay, and so why is this specific 06:14 to the African-American culture? 06:17 It is not specific. 06:19 The term maybe specific but the activity is not. 06:22 The down low is experienced throughout every society, 06:26 every culture because again, I tell people, 06:29 why would Satan only attack one culture. 06:32 Satan is after entire humanity and so one thing about Satan, 06:36 he does not discriminate. 06:38 So this whole thing about down law is not just 06:41 in the African-American community 06:44 but the term as I said before is, 06:47 it's interesting when I get and talk about it 06:50 with other cultures when I say down low, 06:52 they say, "What are you talking about?" 06:53 But when I describe the activity, 06:55 "Oh, now, I know." 06:58 Wow, very interesting. 06:59 And so, what are some of the statistic 07:02 that may actually contribute to this down low culture 07:07 that we were discussing earlier? 07:09 Well, I believe again the vast majority of individuals 07:14 who found themselves in this down low culture, 07:17 the vast majority of people who found themselves 07:20 with same gender attraction, 07:22 the vast majority of people who are sexually active, 07:25 promiscuous stems from childhood sexual molestation. 07:29 Okay. 07:31 I believe that even though there are other causes, 07:34 I believe that that's the main method 07:39 that Satan is using to draw people into sexual perversion. 07:44 And when you start looking at this thing called down low, 07:49 these are individuals who have same-sex attraction, 07:55 that they're trying to keep under cover, 07:58 but because they're keeping it under cover, 08:01 there is a lot more devastation that's been experienced 08:06 even beyond their comprehension. 08:08 When you start looking at... 08:12 Our culture now 08:14 and our topic from the White House to the schoolhouse, 08:17 this kind of sexuality 08:20 is now being promoted as natural, as normal. 08:24 It is a... 08:26 It's a concept now that's being taught to our children 08:30 as early as four years old. 08:32 And when you are in a church environment 08:39 that does not embrace this, 08:41 but yet at school, in the media, 08:44 you're being drawn into it. 08:47 You start to be curious or God forbid, 08:51 you are indeed molested, you start because the flesh 08:55 now being contaminated drawn into the activity 08:59 but because of your church environment 09:00 that does not embrace it, 09:02 you start doing things again on the down low. 09:04 Okay. 09:06 One thing that it's been said in our community is, 09:12 it's because the church does not 09:14 or will not accept homosexuality 09:16 as been natural and normal, 09:18 that's forcing people to be on the down low. 09:22 that allow from hell itself 09:24 because the church can never embrace sin. 09:29 It is not the church reluctancy to embrace perversion 09:34 that's called an individual to be on the down low, 09:36 is those individual's reluctancy to have the attitude 09:41 not my will but thou will be done. 09:43 And so, we ask about the genesis of all this, 09:47 we all know is sin and it's the enemy himself, 09:50 but I believe a vast majority of this comes from 09:54 again children who are being exposed 09:58 either by the actual molestation 10:02 or even being exposed to sexual explicit material, 10:08 information when they're just young 10:11 and then comes contamination. 10:13 Okay, so what you're saying is exposure is education. 10:17 So a child that's molested at an early age, 10:19 this education if you would, even if it was in a situation 10:25 that was negative for the child, 10:28 it still is educating them in homosexual sex. 10:30 Is that right? It affirm something? 10:33 It creates curiosity. Okay. 10:36 It create a pleasurable experience for the flesh, 10:40 but again when you have that, and then on the other hand, 10:45 you have a church culture that does not affirm it, 10:49 does not embrace it, then what it does, 10:51 it makes people say, well, I'm gonna do it, 10:54 but I will do it on the down low. 10:56 I'm gonna do where people are not aware of it. 10:59 The fallacy again of this whole thing called down low 11:03 is really our reluctance at the church 11:07 to again address the whole issue of sexuality period. 11:11 Let alone the issue dealing with homosexuality. 11:14 Okay, and so what I wanted to look at now 11:16 is how that affects the family unit? 11:18 Okay. 11:19 In a down low situation where, 11:21 you know, let's say that the father is stepping out 11:23 and practicing the down low? 11:26 How does that affect the mother, the wife? 11:30 Very good question because in the book 11:32 I have a chapter called collateral damage. 11:36 Imagine a male or husband 11:41 who is dividing his sexual intension 11:46 between a wife and other man. 11:50 The Bible said, you can serve two masters. 11:52 You won't leave, you won't worship one and leave alone. 11:55 And so what happens is obviously the sexual intimacy 12:00 that should be only shared with the wife 12:03 is no longer shared with the wife. 12:05 And so you have a decrease in sexual activity 12:09 between husband and wife, or you have a cessation of it, 12:14 you know, completely to the point where 12:18 that start to destroy the confidence 12:20 of the wife in a husband. 12:22 Yes. 12:23 She starts thinking about her self-esteem 12:25 now is being adversely affected and when the intimacy 12:29 between husband and wife is not how it should be, 12:32 it adversely affects the entire home. 12:36 One big issue however is the fact that 12:40 like in the African-American community, 12:44 African-American females 12:45 have the highest rate of HIV infection. 12:48 You say, well, how can that be? 12:50 Because a lot of them are dating men on the down low. 12:53 And since we know that the homosexual community, 12:56 especially the male segment 12:58 of homosexual community has the highest rate 13:00 of HIV infection of any segment in our culture, 13:04 when individuals are exposing themselves 13:06 to that culture 13:08 and then they bring it to their wife, 13:10 then that is a very serious exposure 13:13 to number one diseases that can kill her. 13:17 But this thing about the spiritual component 13:20 is that culture is inundated with spiritual perversion 13:26 and the Bible does say two become one. 13:28 What happens when the husband now 13:31 exposed himself to spiritual issues that 13:37 now can be brought into the home 13:39 and then when he and his wife become one, 13:41 what has adversely affected him from that down low culture 13:45 is now adversely affecting the wife. 13:47 And if it affects the wife, 13:49 it can now also affects the children 13:50 and so there's a lot of possibilities 13:54 and a lot of adverse consequences 13:59 that a family can and does experience 14:02 because of husband on the down low. 14:04 Many, many families now have been broken up, 14:09 because once the wife finds out, 14:12 I mean how can she now have faith in a husband 14:17 that had exposed her and the children 14:20 to all of these negative consequences. 14:23 But because of the male selfish, 14:27 sexual desires, it now has adversely affect the family, 14:32 you know in many ways. 14:33 It's not only the family now, how about generations... 14:37 I submit that again the sexual sins 14:39 of the parents will affect the children 14:42 and if God didn't break that cycle, 14:44 it now become the generational curse. 14:46 Okay, so what I want to do is kind of add that to, 14:50 you have a situation now 14:51 where the man is stepping out or somebody stepping out 14:54 and what happens is the partner 14:56 that's at home doesn't even know 14:58 what's going on, on the outside. 15:00 However when that man steps out 15:02 and engages in sex outside marriage, 15:05 there are demons involved, am I right? 15:06 Yes, yes. 15:07 And those demons now have access to the home, 15:10 through the wife, and through the children, am I right? 15:12 Yes. 15:14 As a matter fact what I'm thinking 15:15 of is in Testimonies on sexual behavior 15:18 and divorce and adultery, there's a specific story 15:21 where a man was asking specifically 15:23 for prayer about his illness. 15:25 He said he was sick, 15:26 his wife was sick and his family was sick. 15:28 And basically he was denied prayer at that time 15:32 and said come back in the morning 15:33 and will pray for you, right. 15:35 So that night while this person was in prayer 15:39 about the situation with this man, 15:41 the Lord revealed to her 15:43 that he was actually engaging in... 15:46 Sexual perversion. 15:47 Sex out side, that's right sexual perversion. 15:49 And so the next morning when a man showed up, 15:51 she confirmed that what she had witnessed 15:53 the night before to this man. 15:55 He admitted it and she says in that, 15:57 that your problem, 15:59 your issue with this has been a problem for a long time 16:02 even before you were married 16:03 and she said that the reason why you're sick 16:05 and all of your family is sick is because you've indulge 16:07 this sexual deviant behavior 16:10 and she said even the death of your child 16:12 was a result of this action. 16:14 And said that if the Lord were to grant you 16:16 more life force to heal you, 16:18 you would only squander it on the sexual perversion. 16:20 What's amazing is, 16:22 I started to see that there is a demonic component here 16:25 to when we act out sexually. 16:28 Any insights on that? 16:29 There's a quote that I want to read to you again 16:35 from one of my favorite authors 16:37 and they say that, 16:38 "Satanic agencies were incorporated with men. 16:41 The bodies of human beings, 16:43 made for the dwelling place of God, 16:45 had become the habitation of demons. 16:47 The senses, the nerves, the passions, 16:50 the organs of men, were worked on by supernatural agencies 16:54 in the indulgence of the vilest lust." 16:57 I submit that if a individual submit him 17:01 or herself to that type of demonic infestation, 17:05 when they bring it into the home 17:07 and they again have intimate relationship 17:10 with the husband and wife, two become one. 17:14 And you can't, you must understand that, 17:17 that's when the same demonic influences 17:19 that are affecting the person who is doing wrong 17:22 is gonna affect the innocent one as well, 17:24 because two become one. 17:27 The down low culture is one. 17:30 In my opinion, is the most deceptive, 17:35 the most dangerous practice in any home, 17:40 because there are people who are innocent, 17:43 that are not aware of the dangers 17:46 that the guilty party is exposing them too. 17:49 And you must understand that 17:52 Satan is gonna keep drawing on that person's nerves 17:55 and their passions and it gets deeper 17:58 and deeper and more sinister 18:00 and more the base and there is no limit. 18:04 So what we must understand is, again we must deal with this, 18:09 not only from a minister standpoint, 18:12 but I submit that we need to make both our male 18:17 and female, children, young adults 18:20 especially women aware that this thing is out there. 18:27 Sometimes a female can be so concern about being married 18:33 that she may settle for something 18:36 that God didn't bring. 18:38 Okay, so I want to talk about that. 18:40 What's that statistic 18:41 that you were telling me earlier 18:42 that how many men are there to every woman? 18:46 For the African-American community... 18:49 There are 1.8 million more African-American female 18:54 than are African-American males. 18:55 Okay. 18:56 And so, when you start taking that dynamic 18:59 and then understand in that pool 19:01 of African-American males, you've got some who're in jail. 19:05 You've got some who are may not have education. 19:10 You got some who are involved with open homosexual activity, 19:16 we have those on the down low. 19:18 So, and of course I believe that there's only one blood 19:23 and one race, but you must understand 19:25 that there are lot of African-American females 19:28 who are looking for African-American male 19:30 and they are prone to pick somebody 19:35 who may look good, who may smell good, 19:37 who may sound good, did not feminine 19:40 as you said earlier, they are macho 19:42 and people need to understand that a lot of guys who above, 19:49 a lot of guys who are he-man from the exterior presentation 19:54 are actually on the down low. 19:56 They're why so danger 19:58 because there are very little sand of symptoms 20:02 that will in the case somebody 20:04 being actively involved in that activity. 20:06 So, I really want to take this 20:08 to the women's perspective again. 20:10 If a woman suspects that her husband 20:12 even if she doesn't think it's down low, 20:13 like I have a hard time understanding that 20:16 that it's one thing we know that men 20:19 of all races step out on their wives. 20:21 And I think that a wife can tell 20:23 basically when her husband is cheating 20:24 because of the lack of intimacy or the change in the intimacy. 20:28 So if a woman suspects that her man may be stepping out, 20:32 is there a compromise that you know, 20:34 maybe he's a provider, the fact that what 24% 20:38 of African-American people are married. 20:41 So it's a very low rate, 20:42 is it possible that even if they suspect something 20:46 that they don't want to change their status 20:49 for fear that they would not be married or whatever. 20:51 And then I want to talk about the huge effect 20:54 that that can have on a woman staying in that situation 20:58 and then how can she get out? 20:59 It's interesting not only do women 21:04 tend to settle for second best, 21:07 when it comes to intimacy aspect. 21:11 But you allow them to stay in a relationship 21:13 when they're battered, 21:14 because they feel like this is the best I can do. 21:16 Right. 21:17 Again as Christians, we must understand 21:20 that God can provide for you, who you need, when you need it. 21:25 Right. 21:26 A lot of problems it may be the female 21:29 do not have the trust in the Lord. 21:32 They feel like, well, this is the best I can do, 21:34 but I want to say this with all honesty 21:37 and all confidence God haven't called anybody 21:41 to be battered and to be bruised 21:42 and to be exposed to demonic influence, 21:44 it's definitely not what God has called people to do. 21:47 God has called people to live holy and to be whole. 21:50 Exactly, I totally understand now that, 21:53 that any woman was living in a situation 21:55 where she may suspect something's going on 21:57 but you know what we have, 21:59 we really want to emphasize that her security, 22:03 the one that provides for her is our Heavenly Father. 22:06 So really the only option, the only viable option 22:08 that I see is that, if she brings it to the Lord 22:13 not only can she be, he reveal that to her 22:16 what's going on in her marriage, 22:17 but also give her counsel, comfort, protection 22:21 and one of the other aspect that I want to talk about 22:24 and I certainly don't want to leave out 22:25 is you know as a redeemed person 22:29 coming out of homosexuality myself, 22:31 what is the redemptive part for the man 22:34 whose on the down low. 22:36 You know, it's very important question 22:37 because God honors marriage 22:40 and I believe that with the prayer of the wife 22:44 and honesty of the husband, God can turn that around. 22:48 The key is there has to be a curtain on a wife's part 22:56 to put a foot down and said you know 22:58 we can get to the bottom of this 23:00 and also about their willingness of her 23:03 to hear his story. 23:05 Suppose that gentleman was molested 23:08 that the whole lot of things 23:09 that can be behind this, but the bottom line 23:11 is just like people didn't want any other type of sin, 23:18 God can take you where you are 23:21 and He can change you. 23:22 He give you a new nature, a new desire 23:26 because God honors a marriage, 23:28 I believe that if the husband and wife both on a God, 23:32 even in their sinfulness and they put God first, 23:36 God can take that what Satan has corrupted 23:38 and He can make it whole. 23:40 So, give me now some inside then, 23:43 if let's say that someone in the down low 23:46 is watching our program right now. 23:48 What would you say to encourage this person 23:52 about the situation and to give them hope? 23:54 First of all the Bible said, if we confess our sin 24:00 and God is faithful and just to forgive us 24:02 but not only forgive us, He say He will cleanse us. 24:05 Amen. From all unrighteousness. 24:08 That person must understand that despite the condemnation 24:11 that Satan is showering on him, 24:15 despite his own self condemnation, 24:18 God says that, I can take your sins 24:21 and though they be red as crimson, 24:23 if I can make it white as snow, 24:24 God can not only change his attitude, 24:27 not only forgive him but God can take all of that, 24:29 that call to Him to act that way 24:32 and make him a new creature, that's the promise of God. 24:34 So, you are basically saying that whoever you are, 24:38 wherever you are, whatever you are in, 24:40 you're not so low that God can't help you. 24:43 No sir, no sir. 24:44 There's no pit so deep that God cannot go deeper. 24:46 The psalmist says, earth has no sorrow 24:50 that heaven cannot heal. 24:51 That's right, that's right. 24:53 So in wrapping this up, 24:57 what we are talking about basically isn't limited 25:00 or exclusive to the African community right? 25:02 No. 25:03 And so, what are some other areas, 25:06 where this is affected like, 25:07 you said big in the Latino community, 25:10 why is it that the gay barns are filled with, 25:13 you know, Caucasian people and yet is a minority issue. 25:17 What, what's the basis for the down low? 25:19 What is the shame factor that keeps them so oppressed? 25:23 It is again the draw to sin and the need to cover it up. 25:29 What I'm asking is, is it a cultural thing like, 25:32 like what's the relationship? 25:33 I know there are lot of Hispanic people 25:35 or say Catholic and I know 25:37 that it's very taboo in that culture, 25:39 why is it more specific in minorities 25:43 and that's what I'm trying to get at is, 25:46 is not what it is but why it's, where it is? 25:48 What we believe is the reason 25:51 it's so significant in the minority populations 25:53 because the population in general has not yet 25:57 wholesale accepted homosexuality. 25:59 Okay. 26:00 When it is not accepted 26:02 then it is done underneath the radar. 26:05 That why there is such a push in our community 26:09 for the churches to be affirming, 26:10 wanted churches to embrace it 26:12 because they say that, if we embrace it 26:14 then we will eliminate the down low culture, 26:16 that's not true but that's the premise 26:17 that they're taking. 26:19 So how does that start? 26:20 Now let's say, 26:22 you're the head elder in your church, with this situation 26:25 and I'm sure that you're vocal about it. 26:26 What would you recommend to another church 26:28 who wanted to address this in a loving and redemptive way. 26:32 How would they go about it to even approach the subject? 26:37 Well, I believe that again they must be educated 26:40 about that the whole thing about homosexuality... 26:43 Let me back up. 26:44 We must embrace biblical sexuality. 26:46 To start, let's do the foundation 26:49 and once we've established what does that the Lord 26:51 in the constitutional principles 26:52 that govern sexuality. 26:54 Then we gonna address all of the counterfeit areas 26:57 that Satan has carried us. 26:59 Beautiful. I believe that-- 27:00 That the key at there or the key focus is 27:04 God says, my people are destroyed 27:06 for a lack of knowledge. 27:07 So if we start educating ourselves, 27:09 we start studying biblical sexuality 27:11 and embrace this awesome gift from God, 27:13 the truth then will start to set people free. 27:16 Beautiful, so instead of looking at what's wrong, 27:21 we start to focus on 27:23 how God established sex to be a good thing. 27:26 And so as we look at the model 27:28 of what it's like in its perfection, 27:29 then what happens is the Holy Spirit 27:31 is able to convict about all the areas 27:34 where we've fallen short, 27:35 where we've given into sexual deviation 27:38 and so as the church recognizes 27:40 and identifies the pure pattern, 27:43 then I believe that that's when the Holy Spirit 27:44 really is able to accomplish its work into meeting the needs 27:48 of those who are sexually defiled 27:49 and also create an environment 27:51 that's safe to bring other sinners 27:53 and to understand where they're at. 27:55 Want to thank you for joining us 27:56 on our program today, Pure Choices 27:58 and we hope that you'll come back 28:00 and join us again. |
Revised 2016-02-18