Pure Choices

The Down Low Culture

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Mike Carducci (Host), Raymond King

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Series Code: PC

Program Code: PC000029


00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:05 may be too candid for younger children.
00:41 Hi, I'm Mike Carducci with Coming Out Ministries,
00:44 your host today on "Pure Choices."
00:47 I have with me my guest Elder Raymond King
00:49 of Securing Hope Ministry.
00:51 Welcome Elder King. Thanks for having me.
00:53 My pleasure.
00:55 One in the issues that I remember definitely
00:57 when I was in the gay lifestyle which has been my history
01:01 is I knew that there weren't many masculine
01:05 African-American homosexuals
01:08 and I remember that being interesting to me
01:10 that they usually, the only,
01:13 you know, young African-American men
01:15 that we saw were very feminine.
01:18 And I remember it being kind of curious
01:20 to my mind like where were they,
01:22 you know, like where was that populist
01:23 and it wasn't until actually
01:25 after I come out of the gay lifestyle
01:27 and into ministry that I recognize that there's this,
01:31 this movement or whatever called,
01:34 the down low culture.
01:36 And so, Elder King,
01:37 you specialize in this area from your research
01:41 and I wonder would you tell us a little bit,
01:43 what's the definition of down low culture
01:45 and how does that relate
01:46 to the African-American community?
01:48 Well, the term down low
01:50 basically is what we identify men
01:56 who tend to be heterosexual but really are homosexual.
02:03 They're individuals that in the sense are married,
02:08 they have families, they have the facade
02:13 of being again macho, he-man type of individuals,
02:20 but in reality they sneak around
02:23 and they are involved in homosexual activity.
02:27 So, we called the down low because it is secretive.
02:32 It is so secretive that in many instances,
02:36 the wife or the girlfriend of these individuals
02:40 have no idea that these men have this secret sex life.
02:46 I would also say that in many instances
02:50 we can associate this term with men,
02:55 but more and more the women also now,
02:58 who had this type of façade that they are pretending.
03:05 So the down low can be both men and women
03:08 even though in most instances, we are referring to men.
03:13 Okay, and because you're not a homosexual
03:17 that come from that past,
03:19 something happened in your life that brought this issue
03:22 to a very personal aspect for you.
03:25 Could you elaborate on that for us?
03:27 Yes, in the book that I wrote dealing with this,
03:32 I'll talk about my brother
03:33 who unfortunately was also involved in this culture.
03:40 I found out about this, about a month before he died
03:45 or he actually went out committing suicide.
03:48 Well, though unfortunate about this whole scenario
03:51 however was the fact that,
03:52 I found out that he also was molested
03:56 when he was the child.
03:57 But he also got connected with a religious sect
04:04 that considered this type of activity
04:09 a biblically approved activity.
04:15 I mean it's real weird
04:18 how people can take the Scriptures
04:21 and justify perversion, but, be there at the may,
04:24 he was married, he had children
04:26 but yet he was secretly involved with other males
04:32 while he was married and so even though the,
04:38 the situation was not the sole motivation for me
04:41 writing the book.
04:43 I did include that in the book because one of the things that
04:47 we must understand as the body of Christ,
04:50 God considered us to be one body.
04:53 And I tell people if I'm part of the body,
04:56 what I do effects you positively or negatively.
04:59 What you do affects me
05:01 because God said we are one body
05:03 and so be there at the may,
05:05 I submit that we have to start
05:09 to deal with reality and not cover things up,
05:13 because the more we cover things up,
05:16 the more things will fester
05:18 and we give Satan the license,
05:21 the authority and we actually,
05:24 it able him to keep destroying lives.
05:27 And so this down low thing
05:29 that I wrote about is hopefully a means
05:31 by which we can start bringing things to open.
05:33 That's right.
05:34 So, Elder King, would you agree that,
05:36 that which we keep in darkness, will eventually overcome us?
05:39 Most definitely.
05:41 As a matter of fact, Satan loves darkness.
05:45 It is the light that,
05:46 that he is shun from and what I am finding out,
05:52 the whole down low culture
05:54 is based upon deception and darkness.
05:56 Doing things under cover,
05:58 where it's not brought to the light
06:00 and because of that, there are many lives,
06:03 there are many generations
06:04 that have been adversely affected
06:06 because of men and women but primarily men
06:09 they're on the down low.
06:11 Okay, and so why is this specific
06:14 to the African-American culture?
06:17 It is not specific.
06:19 The term maybe specific but the activity is not.
06:22 The down low is experienced throughout every society,
06:26 every culture because again, I tell people,
06:29 why would Satan only attack one culture.
06:32 Satan is after entire humanity and so one thing about Satan,
06:36 he does not discriminate.
06:38 So this whole thing about down law is not just
06:41 in the African-American community
06:44 but the term as I said before is,
06:47 it's interesting when I get and talk about it
06:50 with other cultures when I say down low,
06:52 they say, "What are you talking about?"
06:53 But when I describe the activity,
06:55 "Oh, now, I know."
06:58 Wow, very interesting.
06:59 And so, what are some of the statistic
07:02 that may actually contribute to this down low culture
07:07 that we were discussing earlier?
07:09 Well, I believe again the vast majority of individuals
07:14 who found themselves in this down low culture,
07:17 the vast majority of people who found themselves
07:20 with same gender attraction,
07:22 the vast majority of people who are sexually active,
07:25 promiscuous stems from childhood sexual molestation.
07:29 Okay.
07:31 I believe that even though there are other causes,
07:34 I believe that that's the main method
07:39 that Satan is using to draw people into sexual perversion.
07:44 And when you start looking at this thing called down low,
07:49 these are individuals who have same-sex attraction,
07:55 that they're trying to keep under cover,
07:58 but because they're keeping it under cover,
08:01 there is a lot more devastation that's been experienced
08:06 even beyond their comprehension.
08:08 When you start looking at...
08:12 Our culture now
08:14 and our topic from the White House to the schoolhouse,
08:17 this kind of sexuality
08:20 is now being promoted as natural, as normal.
08:24 It is a...
08:26 It's a concept now that's being taught to our children
08:30 as early as four years old.
08:32 And when you are in a church environment
08:39 that does not embrace this,
08:41 but yet at school, in the media,
08:44 you're being drawn into it.
08:47 You start to be curious or God forbid,
08:51 you are indeed molested, you start because the flesh
08:55 now being contaminated drawn into the activity
08:59 but because of your church environment
09:00 that does not embrace it,
09:02 you start doing things again on the down low.
09:04 Okay.
09:06 One thing that it's been said in our community is,
09:12 it's because the church does not
09:14 or will not accept homosexuality
09:16 as been natural and normal,
09:18 that's forcing people to be on the down low.
09:22 that allow from hell itself
09:24 because the church can never embrace sin.
09:29 It is not the church reluctancy to embrace perversion
09:34 that's called an individual to be on the down low,
09:36 is those individual's reluctancy to have the attitude
09:41 not my will but thou will be done.
09:43 And so, we ask about the genesis of all this,
09:47 we all know is sin and it's the enemy himself,
09:50 but I believe a vast majority of this comes from
09:54 again children who are being exposed
09:58 either by the actual molestation
10:02 or even being exposed to sexual explicit material,
10:08 information when they're just young
10:11 and then comes contamination.
10:13 Okay, so what you're saying is exposure is education.
10:17 So a child that's molested at an early age,
10:19 this education if you would, even if it was in a situation
10:25 that was negative for the child,
10:28 it still is educating them in homosexual sex.
10:30 Is that right? It affirm something?
10:33 It creates curiosity. Okay.
10:36 It create a pleasurable experience for the flesh,
10:40 but again when you have that, and then on the other hand,
10:45 you have a church culture that does not affirm it,
10:49 does not embrace it, then what it does,
10:51 it makes people say, well, I'm gonna do it,
10:54 but I will do it on the down low.
10:56 I'm gonna do where people are not aware of it.
10:59 The fallacy again of this whole thing called down low
11:03 is really our reluctance at the church
11:07 to again address the whole issue of sexuality period.
11:11 Let alone the issue dealing with homosexuality.
11:14 Okay, and so what I wanted to look at now
11:16 is how that affects the family unit?
11:18 Okay.
11:19 In a down low situation where,
11:21 you know, let's say that the father is stepping out
11:23 and practicing the down low?
11:26 How does that affect the mother, the wife?
11:30 Very good question because in the book
11:32 I have a chapter called collateral damage.
11:36 Imagine a male or husband
11:41 who is dividing his sexual intension
11:46 between a wife and other man.
11:50 The Bible said, you can serve two masters.
11:52 You won't leave, you won't worship one and leave alone.
11:55 And so what happens is obviously the sexual intimacy
12:00 that should be only shared with the wife
12:03 is no longer shared with the wife.
12:05 And so you have a decrease in sexual activity
12:09 between husband and wife, or you have a cessation of it,
12:14 you know, completely to the point where
12:18 that start to destroy the confidence
12:20 of the wife in a husband.
12:22 Yes.
12:23 She starts thinking about her self-esteem
12:25 now is being adversely affected and when the intimacy
12:29 between husband and wife is not how it should be,
12:32 it adversely affects the entire home.
12:36 One big issue however is the fact that
12:40 like in the African-American community,
12:44 African-American females
12:45 have the highest rate of HIV infection.
12:48 You say, well, how can that be?
12:50 Because a lot of them are dating men on the down low.
12:53 And since we know that the homosexual community,
12:56 especially the male segment
12:58 of homosexual community has the highest rate
13:00 of HIV infection of any segment in our culture,
13:04 when individuals are exposing themselves
13:06 to that culture
13:08 and then they bring it to their wife,
13:10 then that is a very serious exposure
13:13 to number one diseases that can kill her.
13:17 But this thing about the spiritual component
13:20 is that culture is inundated with spiritual perversion
13:26 and the Bible does say two become one.
13:28 What happens when the husband now
13:31 exposed himself to spiritual issues that
13:37 now can be brought into the home
13:39 and then when he and his wife become one,
13:41 what has adversely affected him from that down low culture
13:45 is now adversely affecting the wife.
13:47 And if it affects the wife,
13:49 it can now also affects the children
13:50 and so there's a lot of possibilities
13:54 and a lot of adverse consequences
13:59 that a family can and does experience
14:02 because of husband on the down low.
14:04 Many, many families now have been broken up,
14:09 because once the wife finds out,
14:12 I mean how can she now have faith in a husband
14:17 that had exposed her and the children
14:20 to all of these negative consequences.
14:23 But because of the male selfish,
14:27 sexual desires, it now has adversely affect the family,
14:32 you know in many ways.
14:33 It's not only the family now, how about generations...
14:37 I submit that again the sexual sins
14:39 of the parents will affect the children
14:42 and if God didn't break that cycle,
14:44 it now become the generational curse.
14:46 Okay, so what I want to do is kind of add that to,
14:50 you have a situation now
14:51 where the man is stepping out or somebody stepping out
14:54 and what happens is the partner
14:56 that's at home doesn't even know
14:58 what's going on, on the outside.
15:00 However when that man steps out
15:02 and engages in sex outside marriage,
15:05 there are demons involved, am I right?
15:06 Yes, yes.
15:07 And those demons now have access to the home,
15:10 through the wife, and through the children, am I right?
15:12 Yes.
15:14 As a matter fact what I'm thinking
15:15 of is in Testimonies on sexual behavior
15:18 and divorce and adultery, there's a specific story
15:21 where a man was asking specifically
15:23 for prayer about his illness.
15:25 He said he was sick,
15:26 his wife was sick and his family was sick.
15:28 And basically he was denied prayer at that time
15:32 and said come back in the morning
15:33 and will pray for you, right.
15:35 So that night while this person was in prayer
15:39 about the situation with this man,
15:41 the Lord revealed to her
15:43 that he was actually engaging in...
15:46 Sexual perversion.
15:47 Sex out side, that's right sexual perversion.
15:49 And so the next morning when a man showed up,
15:51 she confirmed that what she had witnessed
15:53 the night before to this man.
15:55 He admitted it and she says in that,
15:57 that your problem,
15:59 your issue with this has been a problem for a long time
16:02 even before you were married
16:03 and she said that the reason why you're sick
16:05 and all of your family is sick is because you've indulge
16:07 this sexual deviant behavior
16:10 and she said even the death of your child
16:12 was a result of this action.
16:14 And said that if the Lord were to grant you
16:16 more life force to heal you,
16:18 you would only squander it on the sexual perversion.
16:20 What's amazing is,
16:22 I started to see that there is a demonic component here
16:25 to when we act out sexually.
16:28 Any insights on that?
16:29 There's a quote that I want to read to you again
16:35 from one of my favorite authors
16:37 and they say that,
16:38 "Satanic agencies were incorporated with men.
16:41 The bodies of human beings,
16:43 made for the dwelling place of God,
16:45 had become the habitation of demons.
16:47 The senses, the nerves, the passions,
16:50 the organs of men, were worked on by supernatural agencies
16:54 in the indulgence of the vilest lust."
16:57 I submit that if a individual submit him
17:01 or herself to that type of demonic infestation,
17:05 when they bring it into the home
17:07 and they again have intimate relationship
17:10 with the husband and wife, two become one.
17:14 And you can't, you must understand that,
17:17 that's when the same demonic influences
17:19 that are affecting the person who is doing wrong
17:22 is gonna affect the innocent one as well,
17:24 because two become one.
17:27 The down low culture is one.
17:30 In my opinion, is the most deceptive,
17:35 the most dangerous practice in any home,
17:40 because there are people who are innocent,
17:43 that are not aware of the dangers
17:46 that the guilty party is exposing them too.
17:49 And you must understand that
17:52 Satan is gonna keep drawing on that person's nerves
17:55 and their passions and it gets deeper
17:58 and deeper and more sinister
18:00 and more the base and there is no limit.
18:04 So what we must understand is, again we must deal with this,
18:09 not only from a minister standpoint,
18:12 but I submit that we need to make both our male
18:17 and female, children, young adults
18:20 especially women aware that this thing is out there.
18:27 Sometimes a female can be so concern about being married
18:33 that she may settle for something
18:36 that God didn't bring.
18:38 Okay, so I want to talk about that.
18:40 What's that statistic
18:41 that you were telling me earlier
18:42 that how many men are there to every woman?
18:46 For the African-American community...
18:49 There are 1.8 million more African-American female
18:54 than are African-American males.
18:55 Okay.
18:56 And so, when you start taking that dynamic
18:59 and then understand in that pool
19:01 of African-American males, you've got some who're in jail.
19:05 You've got some who are may not have education.
19:10 You got some who are involved with open homosexual activity,
19:16 we have those on the down low.
19:18 So, and of course I believe that there's only one blood
19:23 and one race, but you must understand
19:25 that there are lot of African-American females
19:28 who are looking for African-American male
19:30 and they are prone to pick somebody
19:35 who may look good, who may smell good,
19:37 who may sound good, did not feminine
19:40 as you said earlier, they are macho
19:42 and people need to understand that a lot of guys who above,
19:49 a lot of guys who are he-man from the exterior presentation
19:54 are actually on the down low.
19:56 They're why so danger
19:58 because there are very little sand of symptoms
20:02 that will in the case somebody
20:04 being actively involved in that activity.
20:06 So, I really want to take this
20:08 to the women's perspective again.
20:10 If a woman suspects that her husband
20:12 even if she doesn't think it's down low,
20:13 like I have a hard time understanding that
20:16 that it's one thing we know that men
20:19 of all races step out on their wives.
20:21 And I think that a wife can tell
20:23 basically when her husband is cheating
20:24 because of the lack of intimacy or the change in the intimacy.
20:28 So if a woman suspects that her man may be stepping out,
20:32 is there a compromise that you know,
20:34 maybe he's a provider, the fact that what 24%
20:38 of African-American people are married.
20:41 So it's a very low rate,
20:42 is it possible that even if they suspect something
20:46 that they don't want to change their status
20:49 for fear that they would not be married or whatever.
20:51 And then I want to talk about the huge effect
20:54 that that can have on a woman staying in that situation
20:58 and then how can she get out?
20:59 It's interesting not only do women
21:04 tend to settle for second best,
21:07 when it comes to intimacy aspect.
21:11 But you allow them to stay in a relationship
21:13 when they're battered,
21:14 because they feel like this is the best I can do.
21:16 Right.
21:17 Again as Christians, we must understand
21:20 that God can provide for you, who you need, when you need it.
21:25 Right.
21:26 A lot of problems it may be the female
21:29 do not have the trust in the Lord.
21:32 They feel like, well, this is the best I can do,
21:34 but I want to say this with all honesty
21:37 and all confidence God haven't called anybody
21:41 to be battered and to be bruised
21:42 and to be exposed to demonic influence,
21:44 it's definitely not what God has called people to do.
21:47 God has called people to live holy and to be whole.
21:50 Exactly, I totally understand now that,
21:53 that any woman was living in a situation
21:55 where she may suspect something's going on
21:57 but you know what we have,
21:59 we really want to emphasize that her security,
22:03 the one that provides for her is our Heavenly Father.
22:06 So really the only option, the only viable option
22:08 that I see is that, if she brings it to the Lord
22:13 not only can she be, he reveal that to her
22:16 what's going on in her marriage,
22:17 but also give her counsel, comfort, protection
22:21 and one of the other aspect that I want to talk about
22:24 and I certainly don't want to leave out
22:25 is you know as a redeemed person
22:29 coming out of homosexuality myself,
22:31 what is the redemptive part for the man
22:34 whose on the down low.
22:36 You know, it's very important question
22:37 because God honors marriage
22:40 and I believe that with the prayer of the wife
22:44 and honesty of the husband, God can turn that around.
22:48 The key is there has to be a curtain on a wife's part
22:56 to put a foot down and said you know
22:58 we can get to the bottom of this
23:00 and also about their willingness of her
23:03 to hear his story.
23:05 Suppose that gentleman was molested
23:08 that the whole lot of things
23:09 that can be behind this, but the bottom line
23:11 is just like people didn't want any other type of sin,
23:18 God can take you where you are
23:21 and He can change you.
23:22 He give you a new nature, a new desire
23:26 because God honors a marriage,
23:28 I believe that if the husband and wife both on a God,
23:32 even in their sinfulness and they put God first,
23:36 God can take that what Satan has corrupted
23:38 and He can make it whole.
23:40 So, give me now some inside then,
23:43 if let's say that someone in the down low
23:46 is watching our program right now.
23:48 What would you say to encourage this person
23:52 about the situation and to give them hope?
23:54 First of all the Bible said, if we confess our sin
24:00 and God is faithful and just to forgive us
24:02 but not only forgive us, He say He will cleanse us.
24:05 Amen. From all unrighteousness.
24:08 That person must understand that despite the condemnation
24:11 that Satan is showering on him,
24:15 despite his own self condemnation,
24:18 God says that, I can take your sins
24:21 and though they be red as crimson,
24:23 if I can make it white as snow,
24:24 God can not only change his attitude,
24:27 not only forgive him but God can take all of that,
24:29 that call to Him to act that way
24:32 and make him a new creature, that's the promise of God.
24:34 So, you are basically saying that whoever you are,
24:38 wherever you are, whatever you are in,
24:40 you're not so low that God can't help you.
24:43 No sir, no sir.
24:44 There's no pit so deep that God cannot go deeper.
24:46 The psalmist says, earth has no sorrow
24:50 that heaven cannot heal.
24:51 That's right, that's right.
24:53 So in wrapping this up,
24:57 what we are talking about basically isn't limited
25:00 or exclusive to the African community right?
25:02 No.
25:03 And so, what are some other areas,
25:06 where this is affected like,
25:07 you said big in the Latino community,
25:10 why is it that the gay barns are filled with,
25:13 you know, Caucasian people and yet is a minority issue.
25:17 What, what's the basis for the down low?
25:19 What is the shame factor that keeps them so oppressed?
25:23 It is again the draw to sin and the need to cover it up.
25:29 What I'm asking is, is it a cultural thing like,
25:32 like what's the relationship?
25:33 I know there are lot of Hispanic people
25:35 or say Catholic and I know
25:37 that it's very taboo in that culture,
25:39 why is it more specific in minorities
25:43 and that's what I'm trying to get at is,
25:46 is not what it is but why it's, where it is?
25:48 What we believe is the reason
25:51 it's so significant in the minority populations
25:53 because the population in general has not yet
25:57 wholesale accepted homosexuality.
25:59 Okay.
26:00 When it is not accepted
26:02 then it is done underneath the radar.
26:05 That why there is such a push in our community
26:09 for the churches to be affirming,
26:10 wanted churches to embrace it
26:12 because they say that, if we embrace it
26:14 then we will eliminate the down low culture,
26:16 that's not true but that's the premise
26:17 that they're taking.
26:19 So how does that start?
26:20 Now let's say,
26:22 you're the head elder in your church, with this situation
26:25 and I'm sure that you're vocal about it.
26:26 What would you recommend to another church
26:28 who wanted to address this in a loving and redemptive way.
26:32 How would they go about it to even approach the subject?
26:37 Well, I believe that again they must be educated
26:40 about that the whole thing about homosexuality...
26:43 Let me back up.
26:44 We must embrace biblical sexuality.
26:46 To start, let's do the foundation
26:49 and once we've established what does that the Lord
26:51 in the constitutional principles
26:52 that govern sexuality.
26:54 Then we gonna address all of the counterfeit areas
26:57 that Satan has carried us.
26:59 Beautiful. I believe that--
27:00 That the key at there or the key focus is
27:04 God says, my people are destroyed
27:06 for a lack of knowledge.
27:07 So if we start educating ourselves,
27:09 we start studying biblical sexuality
27:11 and embrace this awesome gift from God,
27:13 the truth then will start to set people free.
27:16 Beautiful, so instead of looking at what's wrong,
27:21 we start to focus on
27:23 how God established sex to be a good thing.
27:26 And so as we look at the model
27:28 of what it's like in its perfection,
27:29 then what happens is the Holy Spirit
27:31 is able to convict about all the areas
27:34 where we've fallen short,
27:35 where we've given into sexual deviation
27:38 and so as the church recognizes
27:40 and identifies the pure pattern,
27:43 then I believe that that's when the Holy Spirit
27:44 really is able to accomplish its work into meeting the needs
27:48 of those who are sexually defiled
27:49 and also create an environment
27:51 that's safe to bring other sinners
27:53 and to understand where they're at.
27:55 Want to thank you for joining us
27:56 on our program today, Pure Choices
27:58 and we hope that you'll come back
28:00 and join us again.


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Revised 2016-02-18