Pure Choices

Re-winning Same-gender Friendships - Part 1

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Mike Carducci (Host), Roger Kubick


Series Code: PC

Program Code: PC000030

00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some materials
00:05 may be too candid for younger children.
00:41 Welcome to the Pure Choices.
00:44 I'm Pastor Ron Woolsey with Coming Out Ministries
00:47 and my guest today is Roger Kubick,
00:49 a good friend of mine.
00:51 The subject that we're going to be talking about today
00:53 is rewiring same-sex relationships.
00:58 In my childhood, I was abused, sexually abused,
01:03 molested at a very early age,
01:05 and that left me very confused about
01:07 my general identity
01:09 and it also let me very confused about
01:11 friendships with other boys.
01:15 And later in my teenage years, in elementary school,
01:21 I developed a friendship with an older boy,
01:24 he wasn't a whole lot of older then I was,
01:27 we were in a singing group together.
01:30 And I was repeatedly victimized by this friend
01:35 and that left me quite confused about
01:38 friendships with the same gender.
01:41 As I grew in to my teenage years
01:43 and academy years, high school years,
01:46 as I would developed friendships,
01:47 I was continually confused because
01:50 I didn't really trust my own motives in having our friend,
01:54 was I attracted to this person as friend
01:57 because of my tendencies,
02:01 my same sex attractions
02:03 or was it a genuine type friendship.
02:06 And I believe that many homosexuals have this,
02:09 kind of, confusion as they're growing up.
02:11 And especially, if this person is a Christian,
02:15 I was a very spiritual child, a spiritual teenager,
02:18 a spiritual young person,
02:20 and this was a part of my confusion because
02:22 I realized that my attractions
02:25 were not in harmony with the will of God.
02:28 And so I did have many difficulties in sorting out
02:32 how to have healthy wholesome friendships.
02:37 Today, my guest is Roger Kubick,
02:41 we have been friends, Roger,
02:43 since actually the time
02:46 that I became a Christian, 21 years ago.
02:48 I remember it.
02:49 We were at a Bible worker training program.
02:54 And I was there for the whole program
02:55 and you had come for a couple weeks to practice homiletics
03:01 and take that course.
03:04 And so that's where we meet
03:06 and it was right after I was baptize,
03:08 I was a brand new Christian.
03:11 And I would just like for you to share you perspective
03:15 of how we meet and how we became friends.
03:19 Well, it's pretty interesting,
03:22 coming to that seminar for homiletics,
03:26 I expected to go back learning how to preach better.
03:33 But what I found was a friendship in you
03:36 and how it took place, Ron, is I was sitting there,
03:40 you're giving a sermon, life testimony,
03:44 I don't know what you would've call it
03:45 but that how I perceived it.
03:47 And as you were sharing this massage of over coming sin
03:52 and I am just sitting there thinking
03:54 and, by the way,
03:55 I haven't been in the church that long myself at the point
03:58 and I was still struggling
04:00 with certain things of the Bible.
04:04 Being a carpenter, mechanic, kind of, guy,
04:07 I don't want to just know the end result,
04:09 I want to know how it all gets put together,
04:11 I want to know the nuts and bots of it,
04:12 more of an analytical way
04:14 as well as the spiritual and personal connection.
04:18 That's what your sermon did for me.
04:21 I understood lot of the nuts and bolts,
04:23 but then I saw it in...
04:26 As you gave that talk, how it just...
04:31 Come from you, it wasn't just nuts and bolts,
04:33 and it wasn't just theology, it wasn't just somebody saying,
04:36 here is the spiritual aspect,
04:37 but it was a whole package combined.
04:39 So I was pretty, quite impressed by that.
04:42 I was learning as well as
04:44 getting that felling and experience
04:45 that is important in Christianity.
04:49 And through it, I picked up...
04:54 At least I thought I picked up
04:56 the fact that you may have come out the homosexual lifestyle.
05:01 But I wasn't talking about--
05:02 You didn't say a thing about that.
05:04 But maybe it was because
05:07 part of what I was hearing you say
05:10 was relating to me and my brother
05:13 who was in the homosexual lifestyle,
05:16 and the only part that will be concerned
05:17 is the over coming part.
05:20 And the fact...
05:21 I've always been impressed from the day I heard it,
05:25 that day to this day,
05:26 when you talk about the whosoever
05:29 and whatever, you know,
05:31 and that just simplified thing so well for me.
05:34 And so after you're done talking, if you remember,
05:37 I came out, you went outside to take a breather.
05:40 Right.
05:41 And I came out to talk to you.
05:43 And I was very apprehensive to approach you
05:46 with what I was about to ask you because I had no idea...
05:49 Well, I had an idea, but I didn't really know
05:52 and so I approach you and we just, kind of,
05:55 exchanged a few little words and I said,
05:57 "Do you do you mind if I ask you a very personal question?"
05:59 And I remember, I got very nervous
06:01 when you did you that.
06:02 What is this man going be talking about
06:06 and why is he coming to me privately
06:10 with this intense curiosity
06:14 when I simply was just talking about
06:16 my life being saved from a life of...
06:19 I talked about in those days,
06:21 being saved from a life
06:22 of self-destruction and degradation.
06:25 I never talked about the gay issue.
06:26 It was nine years after I was in a ministry
06:29 before I was ever to even talk openly about
06:32 the details of what I had come out of.
06:34 And so when you came to me
06:37 and wanted to ask me a personal question,
06:39 now I am very nervous, what is that he wants to ask.
06:43 So...
06:44 And also I want to ask,
06:46 what was it that made you feel
06:48 that you could open up to me about this issue?
06:49 Well, I just wanted to address that.
06:51 Yes.
06:52 What made me feel that way was the sermon that you gave.
06:56 There was sincerity, there was openness,
07:00 you weren't hiding that you were never a sinner.
07:03 You mentioned the fact
07:05 that you had a degrading lifestyle.
07:06 And I could relate to myself personally
07:09 as far as the degradation part goes.
07:12 And I can't really put my finger
07:16 on what made me think that maybe,
07:18 you'll come out of the homosexual lifestyle
07:20 other than...
07:21 Even my brother hadn't talked to me in years,
07:24 He basically disowned me.
07:25 So were kind of cued into that already
07:27 because of your brother. Yeah. Yeah.
07:29 I didn't disown my brother, he disowned me.
07:32 I was very close to my brother
07:33 and then he got out in that lifestyle
07:35 and he thought his family disowned him,
07:37 but we really didn't.
07:39 Anyway,
07:42 but what I got out of that sermon was your openness
07:45 and I just felt like that here is kindred spirit,
07:49 here's a person who understand--
07:52 We both received that same spirit,
07:54 there was a bond there.
07:56 Before I talked to you, I already felt the bond.
07:58 I already felt we were gonna be brothers for life.
08:01 So anyway, I come out
08:02 and I thought, well, if, you know,
08:04 if he can make it that clear there,
08:06 maybe he won't be offended if I ask him
08:09 and I need to ask because it's information that I need.
08:12 And what I wanted to know was how do I approach my brother?
08:17 What I can do for my brother to help him come to Christ?
08:21 And if indeed you were in the homosexual lifestyle,
08:24 you'd know that answer more then anybody
08:25 and I've had an opportunity like that before.
08:28 And that's what motivated me to ask that question.
08:30 I know I was very surprised
08:31 when you asked me such a direct question,
08:33 but I have since learned
08:35 that Roger is a very direct person.
08:38 He...
08:39 Whatever questions you have, whatever in your heart, Roger,
08:42 you just put it out their, there is this transparency,
08:45 it's something that I really admire because
08:47 in my own personal life,
08:49 I had lived so many years being everything but transparent.
08:53 I lived a double life.
08:55 I lived one life during the day
08:57 and a totally different life at night in the sub-culture,
09:00 in the gay life, in the gay bars,
09:02 the night club scene and all those things.
09:04 And so this has been very refreshing for me
09:08 to find a new someone
09:09 who is so open and so transparent
09:10 and we can talk about anything.
09:12 Well, I was shaking in my boots.
09:14 I didn't know if I should really
09:15 asked the question because first off,
09:17 if you weren't, would I really offend you
09:19 and then if you were, how did he know?
09:22 What did I do to make him get that idea?
09:25 You know, I just didn't have any idea really
09:27 how to approach you, but it was just with simple honesty
09:30 and you made it easy by giving a simple and honest sermon.
09:33 So I think that was where that connected.
09:35 Somehow, I just knew,
09:36 by your testimony of over coming sin,
09:39 you probably wouldn't be offended,
09:41 just by the way you give your testimony there.
09:42 I know we were only there together for about two weeks.
09:45 I mean, I was there for the whole program,
09:47 like I said earlier, and you there for the two weeks
09:50 and during that two weeks we really connected.
09:53 Yeah.
09:55 A friendship was born that I believe is eternal.
10:00 Now this is important to me because
10:03 coming from the gay life,
10:06 friendships usually came with ulterior motives.
10:10 It seemed like, so many times,
10:12 you could be loved one day and hated the next.
10:16 And it was not just a sexual thing.
10:19 I never knew whether a person wanted to be my friend because
10:23 of either the sex thing or because
10:26 they wanted to get closer to my circle of friends
10:29 or there was some advantage
10:31 that they could find in having a friendship with me.
10:33 I never, never really could trust
10:36 the motive behind that friendship.
10:39 For example, when I became a Christian, 21-years ago,
10:42 I had written to two of my very best friends in the gay life.
10:46 We had been friends for many, many years.
10:50 And I was sharing with them something,
10:52 and I was surprised to find my letter returned in the mail.
10:57 And on it was written,
10:58 "We don't know anybody name Ron Woolsey."
11:01 And these were my very best friends for years,
11:04 but when I became a Christian, I was no longer...
11:08 It was like, they...
11:10 Like I have been martyred and buried
11:13 and consigned to whatever, it was like I never existed.
11:16 And so to find someone that would accept me as a friend
11:22 and we connected, like as I said that day,
11:25 and it was like an eternal friendship was born.
11:28 Did you see it that way
11:29 that in a very shot time we were kindred spirits?
11:33 We bonded very quickly. Right.
11:36 And your dad was there too at that time, right, right?
11:38 Oh, yes.
11:40 And I'm sure that added a lot to the friendship
11:41 and he was quite a carer.
11:43 And while your dad was such a dear man
11:44 and I just felt immediately like
11:47 I belong to the Woolsey family.
11:48 Right. And, which...
11:51 Anyway, the whole thing evolved there.
11:55 I guess what I kind of like to share right now
11:59 concerning the homosexual part in my brother
12:02 and a little bit of background with me is that I did...
12:07 You know, I knew my...
12:09 I probably was the first,
12:10 maybe to know in my family that my brother was homosexual.
12:14 And it never really bothered me that much,
12:18 but when I became a Christian,
12:20 the fact that he was homosexual still didn't bother me.
12:24 But the fact that he didn't know Christ really bothered me.
12:26 I had two brothers at the time that did not know Christ.
12:29 And the other brother, I could approach and talk to,
12:33 not really about Christ, but I could talk to him,
12:35 but remember I said this brother has disowned me
12:37 and there was no dialogue between us for years.
12:41 And so...
12:42 Oh, I'd call him on his birthday every year,
12:44 but what more can I do?
12:46 Now that I've become a Christian,
12:47 what can I do to reach out to my family?
12:50 And so that was that were that connection,
12:53 but now my other brother, he...
12:56 When we would talk,
12:57 he would always bring up our past and things
12:59 we used to do and things
13:00 I just didn't want to talk about.
13:02 I certainly, didn't want my children being around
13:04 when he would talk about those things,
13:07 which apparently was okay around his children.
13:09 But I didn't...
13:13 It was just very hard,
13:14 very difficult for me in that relationship.
13:18 And the point I'm getting at here is that in my mind,
13:21 the homosexuality had nothing to do with it.
13:24 Being with out Christ was everything to me
13:28 that as far as they went,
13:30 I wanted them to be with Christ.
13:32 And that was the issue to me.
13:34 And if I can bring up why that is?
13:36 Is because how my father was.
13:38 I was brought up in a don't go to church,
13:42 we don't go to...
13:43 Well, once in a while.
13:44 Christmas, you know, and Easter
13:46 and stuff like that, we would go,
13:47 but I wasn't really brought up in a Christian home,
13:49 the Bible wasn't read at home at all.
13:51 Bible stories were not read at home at all,
13:53 but I understood sound, solid morals.
13:56 And it was my father who taught me that men,
13:59 all men were equal.
14:01 Didn't matter who they were, what they were, what not.
14:03 And one thing I've told a lot of people
14:06 and I like to tell this story is that
14:08 I remember my dad and I was going to this town,
14:10 when I was probably about,
14:12 I don't know, 14, maybe, years old.
14:15 And we were just going out of our town.
14:18 And the town drunk was laying
14:19 on the side of the road,
14:20 this was early in the morning.
14:22 And we were in a hurry.
14:25 My dad pulls over, get's him up,
14:28 put's him in the backseat of the car, takes him home,
14:31 get's him settled in his home, and then we go on again.
14:34 But that's what my dad was.
14:35 And I just...
14:37 The influence of a father who had...
14:39 To help a young boy, understand that no,
14:45 there isn't anybody out there who doesn't need help,
14:48 and even though worst of them, you should help.
14:51 And so just...
14:55 You were just being,
14:56 you were just being a genuine person and I think this what...
14:59 One thing that is so important in our relationship.
15:03 I never did sense any pretension or any effort
15:08 on your part to patronize me
15:12 or there was no sense of an obligation on your part
15:19 to befriend someone who would come out of the gay life.
15:22 To me, I didn't know at that time
15:24 how long you had been a Christian.
15:27 In fact, I'm not sure even today,
15:29 how new you were in that faith at that time.
15:33 But evidently, we came into the faith,
15:35 into the Christian faith close to the same time,
15:39 within a matter of a couple years or so.
15:42 It might have been...
15:44 You want to come into the Christian faith,
15:45 I didn't know a lot about Christianity.
15:47 Right.
15:48 And, I'm sad to say, my church didn't teach me enough.
15:51 However, I knew how much I wanted the Lord.
15:54 That much I knew.
15:56 How to get more of Him,
15:57 I still didn't quite understand,
15:59 but there again, that's why I felt close to you.
16:02 Your sermon shared a lot of that with me.
16:07 And it was the personal...
16:08 I've heard sermon like it before, as far as context,
16:12 but to hear somebody who's actually given
16:16 the sermon of overcoming in their own testimony,
16:18 in their own skin, according to their own life,
16:22 that was something completely different.
16:23 And you were talking about me being genuine,
16:26 that's genuineness that I saw that allowed me
16:31 to take that risk to go up ask you
16:33 about you're past lifestyle,
16:35 so I could talk to you about how to relate to my brother.
16:38 And, I have heard and said
16:40 and I believe it is true that our own personal testimony
16:43 is our most powerful presentation,
16:45 our most powerful sermon for one thing,
16:48 no one can argue with you on it.
16:51 They can't really argue the details
16:53 or whatever because it is your story.
16:55 That's right.
16:56 And that's why in Revelation 12:11, we read,
16:58 we overcome, speaking of the accuser
17:00 of the brethren by the blood of the Lamb
17:03 and by the word of our testimony.
17:05 Many of my messages that
17:07 I think maybe difficult to present,
17:09 I do present through a testimony perspective
17:12 and it makes it easier to go down.
17:15 But I know that right away,
17:19 we connected and we developed this friendship
17:23 that has lasted now for 21-years.
17:28 I think it's this genuineness that I see in you
17:32 and you evidently see in me.
17:36 I have...
17:37 And maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong on this.
17:41 I have this theory or observation
17:46 that spiritual ties can actually be stronger
17:50 than blood ties.
17:53 Have you seen that?
17:55 Absolutely,
17:58 should I say that my brother's name at this point?
18:01 Well, it's fine.
18:02 It's not a whole lot of different from mine.
18:03 Oh, okay.
18:05 My brother's name is Ron.
18:06 And sometimes people get confused when I talk about
18:09 my brother Ron, because I've got two brother Rons.
18:11 And our whole family...
18:14 And I just mean, our whole family
18:15 has felt just completely connected,
18:18 one family with yours.
18:20 I mean, I've stayed in your house for a few weeks,
18:22 helping you build it.
18:23 I never felt like I was anything but family.
18:26 But that wasn't just because
18:27 I had so much hospitality there,
18:29 it was the bonds that we made earlier
18:31 that already decided that we were family.
18:34 And to me, you can look at it from your perspective
18:39 of a homosexual coming into the church,
18:43 finding a bond with another member.
18:45 I was looking at it from the perspective that
18:48 it's hard to find good male friendship, period.
18:50 I don't care how you're looking at it.
18:51 Right.
18:53 Somebody that you can talk to about anything in your life
18:56 and just know that you're safe,
18:59 that there's trust element,
19:01 that's where it stops.
19:02 It's just the dialogue between us
19:03 and it doesn't go anywhere else unless asked to.
19:07 I know in my own family,
19:09 I have two brothers and I love them dearly.
19:13 We're very close in loving each other.
19:17 But we're not on the same spiritual plane.
19:22 And I pray for my brothers
19:23 and I want to see them in the kingdom.
19:25 And this one brother,
19:27 he tells me he prays for everyday.
19:29 And I think that's really a wonderful thing
19:32 to hear from him as he has not taken a step
19:36 to actually become officially a Christian.
19:39 But I know when I go to visit him,
19:41 and though we each other very much,
19:43 unless the television is running,
19:46 our visitation becomes very awkward
19:48 because we don't know what to talk about,
19:52 with the television going, like the NASCAR races,
19:54 I mean that's something he's really into
19:56 and I really into it also when we're visiting.
20:01 But while we're watching the races, we're occupied
20:04 and this is quality time for us, we're together.
20:07 We don't really know what to talk about.
20:09 Then something will come to mind,
20:11 and he'll bring up something and we'll talk a little bit
20:13 and then we go back to watching the television.
20:16 And then something comes to my mind,
20:18 and then I bring up this and we talk about it
20:22 and then pretty soon,
20:23 we're back to watching the television
20:25 because that fills in the dead time.
20:29 Roger, you and I have never sat watch television together.
20:32 I didn't think of that.
20:33 You know, I don't think we've ever sat
20:34 and watched television together
20:36 and we never seemed to have any lack of things
20:38 to talk about, why is that?
20:40 Well, may I say that sometimes
20:43 I wonder if I can get a word in advice.
20:47 Oh, surely not.
20:48 I wanted to say that before you did.
20:52 It's because we have so much...
20:53 And I feel the same way.
20:55 To talk about so much in common, we have Christ.
20:58 And that's everything in our lives.
21:00 And I'd like to say right now my other brother is in Christ
21:03 and I want to praise the Lord for that.
21:04 Amen.
21:05 That I have another brother now that I can...
21:08 A blood brother at that, that I can talk to
21:10 and we can share and I can rejoice.
21:12 And that same idea to me has to be transferred
21:18 to us as members of the church.
21:19 We don't...
21:21 We shouldn't just look to that moment
21:23 when our family becomes Christian.
21:26 We need to look to that moment
21:27 when anybody that we're involved with,
21:29 anybody it within our circle becomes Christian,
21:32 and when they do, just rejoice with them
21:34 and they're brothers to me until proven otherwise.
21:38 In our case, it went stronger than church brotherhood.
21:44 Well, you know, let me just say here
21:46 that over the time that we've known each other,
21:49 you've spent a lot of time in our home.
21:52 My wife and I and our children have spent a lot of time
21:55 in your home and with your family.
21:58 And over these 21-years that we've known each other,
22:01 we have also spent a great deal of time
22:04 talking about biblical principles,
22:07 doctrinal issues.
22:09 And we have worked through, haven't we worked through
22:13 many controversial issues
22:14 that were dividing Christians and dividing the church?
22:17 Yes. And we have come through that.
22:21 Together because you still call me
22:23 with a doctrinal question once in a while
22:25 and we discuss these things.
22:28 And I think this is what I'm trying to put forward
22:32 is that we both through our study
22:36 and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit,
22:38 you know, we're told that the Holy Spirit will lead
22:40 His people into all truth.
22:42 And as we listen to the Holy Spirit
22:45 and we love truth, we have grown...
22:47 I think together, we have grown in truth
22:50 and in our Christian experience and in our friendship.
22:53 And it's just been very, very good
22:55 and healthy for me.
22:57 We both believe in victory over sin.
22:59 Yes.
23:01 For example, when it comes to these doctrinal issues
23:04 where we have disagreed, have we ever disagreed?
23:07 No.
23:08 Well, if we have, we worked through it.
23:10 Well, we may have disagreed, maybe not disagreed
23:13 but saw things from a different perspective
23:15 about the same subject we agree on.
23:17 But it's always come to the point
23:19 where we understand what the other one saying
23:20 and in the agreement, I don't,
23:23 I can't remember us ever disagreeing.
23:25 Well, and it's not because we're so agreeable,
23:27 because I know you're not very agreeable.
23:29 I say that tongue in cheek.
23:31 Now in my self we both are kind of headstrong
23:34 and we are strong willed.
23:36 But this is the thing.
23:38 We have always gone to the word, haven't we?
23:40 When we have questions, we go to the word
23:42 and we have studied that out together.
23:44 So this has been a very bonding thing for us
23:46 and I believe it has prepared us
23:49 for an eternal friendship.
23:51 Where I was referring to earlier friendships
23:53 that I've had.
23:55 I never knew, how long they would last
23:56 sometimes it was a one night stand.
23:59 Sometimes, it lasted for two or three years.
24:01 Sometimes for 16-years, whole life,
24:04 I was in the in the, in the world.
24:07 And then, would end when I became a Christian but.
24:10 I believe what we've developed as friends.
24:12 And I have several friends, you know,
24:14 that to me in Christ have become like brothers, like you.
24:19 And this is a foretaste of heaven.
24:20 You know, to have this.
24:24 In the gay life
24:28 I believe this is something that gay men
24:31 and I'm sure the gay women or lesbians
24:34 they have this same
24:36 void in their lives for in the case of gay men,
24:40 for male acceptance, for confirmation
24:45 and affirmation of their manhood.
24:47 And to have friendships that are not based upon
24:51 out ulterior motives
24:53 and what someone can gain from it and..
24:57 And I think within the church
24:59 it is very important that we reach out,
25:02 that we need genuine friends to people who are in need.
25:06 We never know what it is they may really lack
25:10 and what they need.
25:12 I read a statement once
25:14 and I think it is so beautiful that,
25:15 "The strongest argument for Christianity
25:20 for the faith is a loving and lovable Christian."
25:24 And I know from the gay perspective,
25:27 gay men have a tendency to be overly sensitive about this,
25:32 they don't feel loved, they don't feel accepted.
25:35 There's always this burden of rejection.
25:40 I really appreciate in you right from the get go,
25:43 as I was first coming into the church
25:44 someone who accepted me
25:46 and loved me and was willing to be a friend,
25:50 you know, for life.
25:53 Do you see this kind of lead within the church?
25:56 I see it a lot and I guess what I'd like to say
25:59 to the church today and the viewers is that
26:03 it wasn't about me having you a friend,
26:08 the homosexual had nothing to do with it.
26:10 I have always prayed
26:12 that the Lord would give me a very close friend.
26:13 I even pray that today because there's people out there
26:16 that have so much value
26:18 and it doesn't only do me good as a man in the church.
26:22 It does the person good who is looking
26:24 to come into the church,
26:25 whether they're homosexuals or not and I think
26:26 the church may be weak on this probably
26:29 because we don't talk about it enough.
26:30 But our relationships can be very sound,
26:33 between me and good healthy relationships
26:36 and very enjoyable.
26:38 Yes, I want to say that when I came into the faith,
26:43 I've been asked a number of times.
26:46 What program did you use to come out of the gay life?
26:49 Like there had to be some kind of a therapy program
26:52 and I would simply say, well, I used the Bible, you know,
26:56 I went to my knees, I went to the word of God.
27:00 And I listen to the Holy Spirit.
27:03 And then they ask well, who was your mentor?
27:05 And said, Jesus was my mentor.
27:08 What kind of a support group do you have?
27:11 I say, well, my church.
27:13 You know, my prayer meeting and my church family.
27:16 That's my support group
27:18 and I have been so blessed
27:21 to develop friendships with people like you, Roger.
27:24 With my church family and so forth
27:26 and what we really need within our church today
27:30 is a safe place for homosexuals to come,
27:34 not to come and found, find salvation, in their sin.
27:38 But to find salvation from their sin.
27:41 And to find a nurturing,
27:43 loving church body that will accept them
27:47 as they go through this process
27:48 of transformation like we all have.
27:51 So thank you so much for tuning
27:53 into Pure Choices today.


Revised 2016-02-18