Participants: Mike Carducci (Host), Roger Kubick
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000030
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some materials 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:41 Welcome to the Pure Choices. 00:44 I'm Pastor Ron Woolsey with Coming Out Ministries 00:47 and my guest today is Roger Kubick, 00:49 a good friend of mine. 00:51 The subject that we're going to be talking about today 00:53 is rewiring same-sex relationships. 00:58 In my childhood, I was abused, sexually abused, 01:03 molested at a very early age, 01:05 and that left me very confused about 01:07 my general identity 01:09 and it also let me very confused about 01:11 friendships with other boys. 01:15 And later in my teenage years, in elementary school, 01:21 I developed a friendship with an older boy, 01:24 he wasn't a whole lot of older then I was, 01:27 we were in a singing group together. 01:30 And I was repeatedly victimized by this friend 01:35 and that left me quite confused about 01:38 friendships with the same gender. 01:41 As I grew in to my teenage years 01:43 and academy years, high school years, 01:46 as I would developed friendships, 01:47 I was continually confused because 01:50 I didn't really trust my own motives in having our friend, 01:54 was I attracted to this person as friend 01:57 because of my tendencies, 02:01 my same sex attractions 02:03 or was it a genuine type friendship. 02:06 And I believe that many homosexuals have this, 02:09 kind of, confusion as they're growing up. 02:11 And especially, if this person is a Christian, 02:15 I was a very spiritual child, a spiritual teenager, 02:18 a spiritual young person, 02:20 and this was a part of my confusion because 02:22 I realized that my attractions 02:25 were not in harmony with the will of God. 02:28 And so I did have many difficulties in sorting out 02:32 how to have healthy wholesome friendships. 02:37 Today, my guest is Roger Kubick, 02:41 we have been friends, Roger, 02:43 since actually the time 02:46 that I became a Christian, 21 years ago. 02:48 I remember it. 02:49 We were at a Bible worker training program. 02:54 And I was there for the whole program 02:55 and you had come for a couple weeks to practice homiletics 03:01 and take that course. 03:04 And so that's where we meet 03:06 and it was right after I was baptize, 03:08 I was a brand new Christian. 03:11 And I would just like for you to share you perspective 03:15 of how we meet and how we became friends. 03:19 Well, it's pretty interesting, 03:22 coming to that seminar for homiletics, 03:26 I expected to go back learning how to preach better. 03:33 But what I found was a friendship in you 03:36 and how it took place, Ron, is I was sitting there, 03:40 you're giving a sermon, life testimony, 03:44 I don't know what you would've call it 03:45 but that how I perceived it. 03:47 And as you were sharing this massage of over coming sin 03:52 and I am just sitting there thinking 03:54 and, by the way, 03:55 I haven't been in the church that long myself at the point 03:58 and I was still struggling 04:00 with certain things of the Bible. 04:04 Being a carpenter, mechanic, kind of, guy, 04:07 I don't want to just know the end result, 04:09 I want to know how it all gets put together, 04:11 I want to know the nuts and bots of it, 04:12 more of an analytical way 04:14 as well as the spiritual and personal connection. 04:18 That's what your sermon did for me. 04:21 I understood lot of the nuts and bolts, 04:23 but then I saw it in... 04:26 As you gave that talk, how it just... 04:31 Come from you, it wasn't just nuts and bolts, 04:33 and it wasn't just theology, it wasn't just somebody saying, 04:36 here is the spiritual aspect, 04:37 but it was a whole package combined. 04:39 So I was pretty, quite impressed by that. 04:42 I was learning as well as 04:44 getting that felling and experience 04:45 that is important in Christianity. 04:49 And through it, I picked up... 04:54 At least I thought I picked up 04:56 the fact that you may have come out the homosexual lifestyle. 05:01 But I wasn't talking about-- 05:02 You didn't say a thing about that. 05:04 But maybe it was because 05:07 part of what I was hearing you say 05:10 was relating to me and my brother 05:13 who was in the homosexual lifestyle, 05:16 and the only part that will be concerned 05:17 is the over coming part. 05:20 And the fact... 05:21 I've always been impressed from the day I heard it, 05:25 that day to this day, 05:26 when you talk about the whosoever 05:29 and whatever, you know, 05:31 and that just simplified thing so well for me. 05:34 And so after you're done talking, if you remember, 05:37 I came out, you went outside to take a breather. 05:40 Right. 05:41 And I came out to talk to you. 05:43 And I was very apprehensive to approach you 05:46 with what I was about to ask you because I had no idea... 05:49 Well, I had an idea, but I didn't really know 05:52 and so I approach you and we just, kind of, 05:55 exchanged a few little words and I said, 05:57 "Do you do you mind if I ask you a very personal question?" 05:59 And I remember, I got very nervous 06:01 when you did you that. 06:02 What is this man going be talking about 06:06 and why is he coming to me privately 06:10 with this intense curiosity 06:14 when I simply was just talking about 06:16 my life being saved from a life of... 06:19 I talked about in those days, 06:21 being saved from a life 06:22 of self-destruction and degradation. 06:25 I never talked about the gay issue. 06:26 It was nine years after I was in a ministry 06:29 before I was ever to even talk openly about 06:32 the details of what I had come out of. 06:34 And so when you came to me 06:37 and wanted to ask me a personal question, 06:39 now I am very nervous, what is that he wants to ask. 06:43 So... 06:44 And also I want to ask, 06:46 what was it that made you feel 06:48 that you could open up to me about this issue? 06:49 Well, I just wanted to address that. 06:51 Yes. 06:52 What made me feel that way was the sermon that you gave. 06:56 There was sincerity, there was openness, 07:00 you weren't hiding that you were never a sinner. 07:03 You mentioned the fact 07:05 that you had a degrading lifestyle. 07:06 And I could relate to myself personally 07:09 as far as the degradation part goes. 07:12 And I can't really put my finger 07:16 on what made me think that maybe, 07:18 you'll come out of the homosexual lifestyle 07:20 other than... 07:21 Even my brother hadn't talked to me in years, 07:24 He basically disowned me. 07:25 So were kind of cued into that already 07:27 because of your brother. Yeah. Yeah. 07:29 I didn't disown my brother, he disowned me. 07:32 I was very close to my brother 07:33 and then he got out in that lifestyle 07:35 and he thought his family disowned him, 07:37 but we really didn't. 07:39 Anyway, 07:42 but what I got out of that sermon was your openness 07:45 and I just felt like that here is kindred spirit, 07:49 here's a person who understand-- 07:52 We both received that same spirit, 07:54 there was a bond there. 07:56 Before I talked to you, I already felt the bond. 07:58 I already felt we were gonna be brothers for life. 08:01 So anyway, I come out 08:02 and I thought, well, if, you know, 08:04 if he can make it that clear there, 08:06 maybe he won't be offended if I ask him 08:09 and I need to ask because it's information that I need. 08:12 And what I wanted to know was how do I approach my brother? 08:17 What I can do for my brother to help him come to Christ? 08:21 And if indeed you were in the homosexual lifestyle, 08:24 you'd know that answer more then anybody 08:25 and I've had an opportunity like that before. 08:28 And that's what motivated me to ask that question. 08:30 I know I was very surprised 08:31 when you asked me such a direct question, 08:33 but I have since learned 08:35 that Roger is a very direct person. 08:38 He... 08:39 Whatever questions you have, whatever in your heart, Roger, 08:42 you just put it out their, there is this transparency, 08:45 it's something that I really admire because 08:47 in my own personal life, 08:49 I had lived so many years being everything but transparent. 08:53 I lived a double life. 08:55 I lived one life during the day 08:57 and a totally different life at night in the sub-culture, 09:00 in the gay life, in the gay bars, 09:02 the night club scene and all those things. 09:04 And so this has been very refreshing for me 09:08 to find a new someone 09:09 who is so open and so transparent 09:10 and we can talk about anything. 09:12 Well, I was shaking in my boots. 09:14 I didn't know if I should really 09:15 asked the question because first off, 09:17 if you weren't, would I really offend you 09:19 and then if you were, how did he know? 09:22 What did I do to make him get that idea? 09:25 You know, I just didn't have any idea really 09:27 how to approach you, but it was just with simple honesty 09:30 and you made it easy by giving a simple and honest sermon. 09:33 So I think that was where that connected. 09:35 Somehow, I just knew, 09:36 by your testimony of over coming sin, 09:39 you probably wouldn't be offended, 09:41 just by the way you give your testimony there. 09:42 I know we were only there together for about two weeks. 09:45 I mean, I was there for the whole program, 09:47 like I said earlier, and you there for the two weeks 09:50 and during that two weeks we really connected. 09:53 Yeah. 09:55 A friendship was born that I believe is eternal. 10:00 Now this is important to me because 10:03 coming from the gay life, 10:06 friendships usually came with ulterior motives. 10:10 It seemed like, so many times, 10:12 you could be loved one day and hated the next. 10:16 And it was not just a sexual thing. 10:19 I never knew whether a person wanted to be my friend because 10:23 of either the sex thing or because 10:26 they wanted to get closer to my circle of friends 10:29 or there was some advantage 10:31 that they could find in having a friendship with me. 10:33 I never, never really could trust 10:36 the motive behind that friendship. 10:39 For example, when I became a Christian, 21-years ago, 10:42 I had written to two of my very best friends in the gay life. 10:46 We had been friends for many, many years. 10:50 And I was sharing with them something, 10:52 and I was surprised to find my letter returned in the mail. 10:57 And on it was written, 10:58 "We don't know anybody name Ron Woolsey." 11:01 And these were my very best friends for years, 11:04 but when I became a Christian, I was no longer... 11:08 It was like, they... 11:10 Like I have been martyred and buried 11:13 and consigned to whatever, it was like I never existed. 11:16 And so to find someone that would accept me as a friend 11:22 and we connected, like as I said that day, 11:25 and it was like an eternal friendship was born. 11:28 Did you see it that way 11:29 that in a very shot time we were kindred spirits? 11:33 We bonded very quickly. Right. 11:36 And your dad was there too at that time, right, right? 11:38 Oh, yes. 11:40 And I'm sure that added a lot to the friendship 11:41 and he was quite a carer. 11:43 And while your dad was such a dear man 11:44 and I just felt immediately like 11:47 I belong to the Woolsey family. 11:48 Right. And, which... 11:51 Anyway, the whole thing evolved there. 11:55 I guess what I kind of like to share right now 11:59 concerning the homosexual part in my brother 12:02 and a little bit of background with me is that I did... 12:07 You know, I knew my... 12:09 I probably was the first, 12:10 maybe to know in my family that my brother was homosexual. 12:14 And it never really bothered me that much, 12:18 but when I became a Christian, 12:20 the fact that he was homosexual still didn't bother me. 12:24 But the fact that he didn't know Christ really bothered me. 12:26 I had two brothers at the time that did not know Christ. 12:29 And the other brother, I could approach and talk to, 12:33 not really about Christ, but I could talk to him, 12:35 but remember I said this brother has disowned me 12:37 and there was no dialogue between us for years. 12:41 And so... 12:42 Oh, I'd call him on his birthday every year, 12:44 but what more can I do? 12:46 Now that I've become a Christian, 12:47 what can I do to reach out to my family? 12:50 And so that was that were that connection, 12:53 but now my other brother, he... 12:56 When we would talk, 12:57 he would always bring up our past and things 12:59 we used to do and things 13:00 I just didn't want to talk about. 13:02 I certainly, didn't want my children being around 13:04 when he would talk about those things, 13:07 which apparently was okay around his children. 13:09 But I didn't... 13:13 It was just very hard, 13:14 very difficult for me in that relationship. 13:18 And the point I'm getting at here is that in my mind, 13:21 the homosexuality had nothing to do with it. 13:24 Being with out Christ was everything to me 13:28 that as far as they went, 13:30 I wanted them to be with Christ. 13:32 And that was the issue to me. 13:34 And if I can bring up why that is? 13:36 Is because how my father was. 13:38 I was brought up in a don't go to church, 13:42 we don't go to... 13:43 Well, once in a while. 13:44 Christmas, you know, and Easter 13:46 and stuff like that, we would go, 13:47 but I wasn't really brought up in a Christian home, 13:49 the Bible wasn't read at home at all. 13:51 Bible stories were not read at home at all, 13:53 but I understood sound, solid morals. 13:56 And it was my father who taught me that men, 13:59 all men were equal. 14:01 Didn't matter who they were, what they were, what not. 14:03 And one thing I've told a lot of people 14:06 and I like to tell this story is that 14:08 I remember my dad and I was going to this town, 14:10 when I was probably about, 14:12 I don't know, 14, maybe, years old. 14:15 And we were just going out of our town. 14:18 And the town drunk was laying 14:19 on the side of the road, 14:20 this was early in the morning. 14:22 And we were in a hurry. 14:25 My dad pulls over, get's him up, 14:28 put's him in the backseat of the car, takes him home, 14:31 get's him settled in his home, and then we go on again. 14:34 But that's what my dad was. 14:35 And I just... 14:37 The influence of a father who had... 14:39 To help a young boy, understand that no, 14:45 there isn't anybody out there who doesn't need help, 14:48 and even though worst of them, you should help. 14:51 And so just... 14:55 You were just being, 14:56 you were just being a genuine person and I think this what... 14:59 One thing that is so important in our relationship. 15:03 I never did sense any pretension or any effort 15:08 on your part to patronize me 15:12 or there was no sense of an obligation on your part 15:19 to befriend someone who would come out of the gay life. 15:22 To me, I didn't know at that time 15:24 how long you had been a Christian. 15:27 In fact, I'm not sure even today, 15:29 how new you were in that faith at that time. 15:33 But evidently, we came into the faith, 15:35 into the Christian faith close to the same time, 15:39 within a matter of a couple years or so. 15:42 It might have been... 15:44 You want to come into the Christian faith, 15:45 I didn't know a lot about Christianity. 15:47 Right. 15:48 And, I'm sad to say, my church didn't teach me enough. 15:51 However, I knew how much I wanted the Lord. 15:54 That much I knew. 15:56 How to get more of Him, 15:57 I still didn't quite understand, 15:59 but there again, that's why I felt close to you. 16:02 Your sermon shared a lot of that with me. 16:07 And it was the personal... 16:08 I've heard sermon like it before, as far as context, 16:12 but to hear somebody who's actually given 16:16 the sermon of overcoming in their own testimony, 16:18 in their own skin, according to their own life, 16:22 that was something completely different. 16:23 And you were talking about me being genuine, 16:26 that's genuineness that I saw that allowed me 16:31 to take that risk to go up ask you 16:33 about you're past lifestyle, 16:35 so I could talk to you about how to relate to my brother. 16:38 And, I have heard and said 16:40 and I believe it is true that our own personal testimony 16:43 is our most powerful presentation, 16:45 our most powerful sermon for one thing, 16:48 no one can argue with you on it. 16:51 They can't really argue the details 16:53 or whatever because it is your story. 16:55 That's right. 16:56 And that's why in Revelation 12:11, we read, 16:58 we overcome, speaking of the accuser 17:00 of the brethren by the blood of the Lamb 17:03 and by the word of our testimony. 17:05 Many of my messages that 17:07 I think maybe difficult to present, 17:09 I do present through a testimony perspective 17:12 and it makes it easier to go down. 17:15 But I know that right away, 17:19 we connected and we developed this friendship 17:23 that has lasted now for 21-years. 17:28 I think it's this genuineness that I see in you 17:32 and you evidently see in me. 17:36 I have... 17:37 And maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong on this. 17:41 I have this theory or observation 17:46 that spiritual ties can actually be stronger 17:50 than blood ties. 17:53 Have you seen that? 17:55 Absolutely, 17:58 should I say that my brother's name at this point? 18:01 Well, it's fine. 18:02 It's not a whole lot of different from mine. 18:03 Oh, okay. 18:05 My brother's name is Ron. 18:06 And sometimes people get confused when I talk about 18:09 my brother Ron, because I've got two brother Rons. 18:11 And our whole family... 18:14 And I just mean, our whole family 18:15 has felt just completely connected, 18:18 one family with yours. 18:20 I mean, I've stayed in your house for a few weeks, 18:22 helping you build it. 18:23 I never felt like I was anything but family. 18:26 But that wasn't just because 18:27 I had so much hospitality there, 18:29 it was the bonds that we made earlier 18:31 that already decided that we were family. 18:34 And to me, you can look at it from your perspective 18:39 of a homosexual coming into the church, 18:43 finding a bond with another member. 18:45 I was looking at it from the perspective that 18:48 it's hard to find good male friendship, period. 18:50 I don't care how you're looking at it. 18:51 Right. 18:53 Somebody that you can talk to about anything in your life 18:56 and just know that you're safe, 18:59 that there's trust element, 19:01 that's where it stops. 19:02 It's just the dialogue between us 19:03 and it doesn't go anywhere else unless asked to. 19:07 I know in my own family, 19:09 I have two brothers and I love them dearly. 19:13 We're very close in loving each other. 19:17 But we're not on the same spiritual plane. 19:22 And I pray for my brothers 19:23 and I want to see them in the kingdom. 19:25 And this one brother, 19:27 he tells me he prays for everyday. 19:29 And I think that's really a wonderful thing 19:32 to hear from him as he has not taken a step 19:36 to actually become officially a Christian. 19:39 But I know when I go to visit him, 19:41 and though we each other very much, 19:43 unless the television is running, 19:46 our visitation becomes very awkward 19:48 because we don't know what to talk about, 19:52 with the television going, like the NASCAR races, 19:54 I mean that's something he's really into 19:56 and I really into it also when we're visiting. 20:01 But while we're watching the races, we're occupied 20:04 and this is quality time for us, we're together. 20:07 We don't really know what to talk about. 20:09 Then something will come to mind, 20:11 and he'll bring up something and we'll talk a little bit 20:13 and then we go back to watching the television. 20:16 And then something comes to my mind, 20:18 and then I bring up this and we talk about it 20:22 and then pretty soon, 20:23 we're back to watching the television 20:25 because that fills in the dead time. 20:29 Roger, you and I have never sat watch television together. 20:32 I didn't think of that. 20:33 You know, I don't think we've ever sat 20:34 and watched television together 20:36 and we never seemed to have any lack of things 20:38 to talk about, why is that? 20:40 Well, may I say that sometimes 20:43 I wonder if I can get a word in advice. 20:47 Oh, surely not. 20:48 I wanted to say that before you did. 20:52 It's because we have so much... 20:53 And I feel the same way. 20:55 To talk about so much in common, we have Christ. 20:58 And that's everything in our lives. 21:00 And I'd like to say right now my other brother is in Christ 21:03 and I want to praise the Lord for that. 21:04 Amen. 21:05 That I have another brother now that I can... 21:08 A blood brother at that, that I can talk to 21:10 and we can share and I can rejoice. 21:12 And that same idea to me has to be transferred 21:18 to us as members of the church. 21:19 We don't... 21:21 We shouldn't just look to that moment 21:23 when our family becomes Christian. 21:26 We need to look to that moment 21:27 when anybody that we're involved with, 21:29 anybody it within our circle becomes Christian, 21:32 and when they do, just rejoice with them 21:34 and they're brothers to me until proven otherwise. 21:38 In our case, it went stronger than church brotherhood. 21:44 Well, you know, let me just say here 21:46 that over the time that we've known each other, 21:49 you've spent a lot of time in our home. 21:52 My wife and I and our children have spent a lot of time 21:55 in your home and with your family. 21:58 And over these 21-years that we've known each other, 22:01 we have also spent a great deal of time 22:04 talking about biblical principles, 22:07 doctrinal issues. 22:09 And we have worked through, haven't we worked through 22:13 many controversial issues 22:14 that were dividing Christians and dividing the church? 22:17 Yes. And we have come through that. 22:21 Together because you still call me 22:23 with a doctrinal question once in a while 22:25 and we discuss these things. 22:28 And I think this is what I'm trying to put forward 22:32 is that we both through our study 22:36 and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, 22:38 you know, we're told that the Holy Spirit will lead 22:40 His people into all truth. 22:42 And as we listen to the Holy Spirit 22:45 and we love truth, we have grown... 22:47 I think together, we have grown in truth 22:50 and in our Christian experience and in our friendship. 22:53 And it's just been very, very good 22:55 and healthy for me. 22:57 We both believe in victory over sin. 22:59 Yes. 23:01 For example, when it comes to these doctrinal issues 23:04 where we have disagreed, have we ever disagreed? 23:07 No. 23:08 Well, if we have, we worked through it. 23:10 Well, we may have disagreed, maybe not disagreed 23:13 but saw things from a different perspective 23:15 about the same subject we agree on. 23:17 But it's always come to the point 23:19 where we understand what the other one saying 23:20 and in the agreement, I don't, 23:23 I can't remember us ever disagreeing. 23:25 Well, and it's not because we're so agreeable, 23:27 because I know you're not very agreeable. 23:29 I say that tongue in cheek. 23:31 Now in my self we both are kind of headstrong 23:34 and we are strong willed. 23:36 But this is the thing. 23:38 We have always gone to the word, haven't we? 23:40 When we have questions, we go to the word 23:42 and we have studied that out together. 23:44 So this has been a very bonding thing for us 23:46 and I believe it has prepared us 23:49 for an eternal friendship. 23:51 Where I was referring to earlier friendships 23:53 that I've had. 23:55 I never knew, how long they would last 23:56 sometimes it was a one night stand. 23:59 Sometimes, it lasted for two or three years. 24:01 Sometimes for 16-years, whole life, 24:04 I was in the in the, in the world. 24:07 And then, would end when I became a Christian but. 24:10 I believe what we've developed as friends. 24:12 And I have several friends, you know, 24:14 that to me in Christ have become like brothers, like you. 24:19 And this is a foretaste of heaven. 24:20 You know, to have this. 24:24 In the gay life 24:28 I believe this is something that gay men 24:31 and I'm sure the gay women or lesbians 24:34 they have this same 24:36 void in their lives for in the case of gay men, 24:40 for male acceptance, for confirmation 24:45 and affirmation of their manhood. 24:47 And to have friendships that are not based upon 24:51 out ulterior motives 24:53 and what someone can gain from it and.. 24:57 And I think within the church 24:59 it is very important that we reach out, 25:02 that we need genuine friends to people who are in need. 25:06 We never know what it is they may really lack 25:10 and what they need. 25:12 I read a statement once 25:14 and I think it is so beautiful that, 25:15 "The strongest argument for Christianity 25:20 for the faith is a loving and lovable Christian." 25:24 And I know from the gay perspective, 25:27 gay men have a tendency to be overly sensitive about this, 25:32 they don't feel loved, they don't feel accepted. 25:35 There's always this burden of rejection. 25:40 I really appreciate in you right from the get go, 25:43 as I was first coming into the church 25:44 someone who accepted me 25:46 and loved me and was willing to be a friend, 25:50 you know, for life. 25:53 Do you see this kind of lead within the church? 25:56 I see it a lot and I guess what I'd like to say 25:59 to the church today and the viewers is that 26:03 it wasn't about me having you a friend, 26:08 the homosexual had nothing to do with it. 26:10 I have always prayed 26:12 that the Lord would give me a very close friend. 26:13 I even pray that today because there's people out there 26:16 that have so much value 26:18 and it doesn't only do me good as a man in the church. 26:22 It does the person good who is looking 26:24 to come into the church, 26:25 whether they're homosexuals or not and I think 26:26 the church may be weak on this probably 26:29 because we don't talk about it enough. 26:30 But our relationships can be very sound, 26:33 between me and good healthy relationships 26:36 and very enjoyable. 26:38 Yes, I want to say that when I came into the faith, 26:43 I've been asked a number of times. 26:46 What program did you use to come out of the gay life? 26:49 Like there had to be some kind of a therapy program 26:52 and I would simply say, well, I used the Bible, you know, 26:56 I went to my knees, I went to the word of God. 27:00 And I listen to the Holy Spirit. 27:03 And then they ask well, who was your mentor? 27:05 And said, Jesus was my mentor. 27:08 What kind of a support group do you have? 27:11 I say, well, my church. 27:13 You know, my prayer meeting and my church family. 27:16 That's my support group 27:18 and I have been so blessed 27:21 to develop friendships with people like you, Roger. 27:24 With my church family and so forth 27:26 and what we really need within our church today 27:30 is a safe place for homosexuals to come, 27:34 not to come and found, find salvation, in their sin. 27:38 But to find salvation from their sin. 27:41 And to find a nurturing, 27:43 loving church body that will accept them 27:47 as they go through this process 27:48 of transformation like we all have. 27:51 So thank you so much for tuning 27:53 into Pure Choices today. |
Revised 2016-02-18