Participants: Mike Carducci (Host), Wayne Blakely (Host), Raymond King, Ron Woolsey
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000032
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:41 Hi, I'm Mike Carducci with Coming Out Ministries, 00:44 your host on "Pure Choices." 00:46 Today, I have with me my other members 00:48 from Coming Out Ministries, 00:50 Ron Woolsey, who is also a pastor 00:52 and Wayne Blakely. 00:53 My name is Mike Carducci and our special guest today 00:56 also is Elder Raymond King. 00:58 I want to thank you, gentlemen, for being here today. 01:01 Our topic today is "Christian Homosexuality." 01:05 Wayne, Ron and I have come from the gay lifestyle, 01:09 as experiencing the restoration and redemption 01:13 through Jesus Christ, 01:14 we have a ministry of reaching out 01:16 to not only the homosexual community 01:18 but also to those in church culture 01:20 who may be looking for opportunities 01:23 and ways to reach out to the homosexual 01:26 and to those that have been sexually defiled 01:28 in our church and in our communities. 01:30 So today, we want to talk about Christian homosexuality 01:33 and I'll begin with the first question. 01:36 Within the gay community, there's a significant number 01:39 who refer to themselves as gay Christians. 01:42 Obviously many homosexuals do love the Lord. 01:45 They love their church, they love the fellowship 01:48 and want to hang on to their Christian roots. 01:50 Is there a problem here? 01:52 I believe there's a problem here 01:54 simply because Jesus himself said in Matthew 7:21 02:00 "Not every one that saith unto me, 02:02 Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." 02:05 And so when we attached the, the name Christian to a sin, 02:13 it's kind of like baptizing sin 02:16 or, you know, we talk about 02:18 baptizing paganism in our history. 02:22 We don't, we don't accept terms like Christian drugs 02:28 or Christian adultery or Christian pedophilia 02:33 and all of that and yet, 02:35 you know, like the question states here, 02:38 many homosexuals are hanging on to their church roots 02:42 and there are legitimate reasons for doing so, 02:45 that the term Christian, we need to analyze 02:49 what does it mean to be a Christian 02:51 and can you truly be a Christian and a homosexual. 02:54 I mean, that's kind of the way I picture this, 02:59 to me it's kind of an oxymoron that you-- 03:02 How can you be a Christian and a homosexual 03:06 or how could you be a Christian adulterer, 03:08 a Christian murderer, you know, and that type of thing. 03:12 So to me it's something that is a viable discussion. 03:16 Now I have to add to that also if you-- 03:22 First you have to come to an agreement that, 03:24 that term gay connotate sin 03:28 and if you haven't arrived at that, 03:30 then you probably won't see it as an, as an oxymoron. 03:33 But when someone comes out the way we used to come out, 03:38 not like this ministry today 03:40 which is the true coming out of darkness 03:42 but when we came out in our old life, 03:45 we declared that we were gay which indicated 03:48 that we wanted to have-- 03:51 If we had intimacy, it would be the desire 03:53 of intimacy with the same sex. 03:56 Well, if we look throughout God's Word, 03:58 there's no support for that. 03:59 Nowhere in God's Word does God condone 04:03 or direct us to a same-sex intimate relationship. 04:08 And so why would I... 04:10 As a Christian I can't understand 04:13 why I would attach the word gay to Christian 04:16 because it truly is as I've described 04:18 that the reason why it really is an oxymoron 04:22 and the same also with someone who let's say they-- 04:26 You know, we know that adultery is a sin, 04:29 you wouldn't come back into the church 04:31 redeemed from by Jesus Christ 04:34 and come back and identify as a Christian adulterer 04:39 or as Paul in the Bible who used to kill Christians 04:45 as a redeemed Christian, he didn't identify 04:48 as a Christian killing Christian. 04:50 And so it doesn't really make any sense. 04:52 Okay, so let me play 04:55 the other side just a little bit. 04:56 What if somebody identifies as gay 04:59 but they're still willing to come to church, 05:01 you know, isn't that something that 05:03 should be consider helpful? 05:07 I think it's important to also and loop your question, 05:12 there are lot of individuals 05:14 who have a same-gender attraction 05:18 but they're not acting on that attraction 05:21 and they've been told that if you just have that, 05:24 that desire or the attraction, 05:26 then you're homosexual or you are gay. 05:29 That is not the truth 05:31 and I think it's important for us to understand that 05:34 there are people who are Christians, 05:36 who are struggling with that same-gender attraction 05:40 but they are still Christians. 05:41 They are different from those who have embraced the desire 05:47 and are acting on the desire and still are expecting God 05:51 to accept them in that lifestyle. 05:54 So it is very, very important I think because when we, 05:58 there's gentlemen by the name of Justin, 05:59 he is the director of the Gay Christian Network 06:03 and I'll talk with him personally 06:06 and even in that that organization 06:10 there are two trend of thought. 06:11 There are "homosexuals" who believe that 06:16 God accept them in their completeness 06:18 and I mean, been intimate with each other 06:21 but yet another group that say as well, 06:23 "Yet I may have this attraction but God did not allow me 06:27 to act on it even in that organization." 06:29 So I think it's important that we differentiate 06:32 between those who are call themselves "gay Christians" 06:37 because they act on it as well as opposed adults 06:40 who call themselves gay Christians 06:41 because they are told that 'cause of their desire 06:44 that they are gay and that's not, 06:46 that's not true. 06:47 You know, it's interesting about that 06:48 that one is a giving in 06:51 and the other one is a surrender. 06:52 Okay. 06:54 I think that's an important delineation. 06:57 I was going to build on that very thought there 06:59 because when I was trying to come back to the Lord, 07:03 I was sin sick. 07:04 You know, I had that enmity in my heart for who I was 07:09 and my life of shame and degradation. 07:13 And when I was coming to the Lord, 07:15 I was wanting to distance myself from that identity. 07:19 I wanted salvation from it. I wanted to come out of it. 07:23 I didn't want to forever be labeled 07:26 as something that I hated. 07:28 And so if we hate sin which, you know, 07:31 God wants to give us that hatred for sin 07:35 and if we hate it, 07:36 why do we want to carry that label around? 07:39 And so we probably need to, 07:41 you know, look at the term Christian, 07:43 what does it mean if a homosexual 07:46 is coming to the Lord to become a Christian, 07:50 what does that mean to become a Christian? 07:54 And to me, we have to look at the definition of Christian, 07:57 what does that mean. 07:59 You know, Ron, I'm glad you brought that up 08:01 because as we've been dialoguing, 08:03 I think about my own experience. 08:05 I came into the church, I got baptized 08:08 while I still had a boyfriend and a sexual addiction 08:11 and I know that people may have been 08:15 picking up on my mannerisms 08:16 or some of the overt stuff but truly I... 08:20 All I knew is that Jesus love me for who I was 08:22 and He had given me the invitation 08:24 to accept His grace. 08:26 I accepted it, thinking that God was going 08:28 to accept me in my homosexual identity 08:31 and as I got baptized I came up 08:33 out of the water hoping that well, 08:34 you know, may be He could change me 08:36 but obviously when I came up I was still a sexual addict 08:38 and with a boyfriend. 08:40 But God began this journey with me 08:42 and as I continued to accept the knowledge that I had, 08:45 I continue to grow and to understand more 08:48 of His grace and how that work. 08:49 It was several months before 08:51 I recognize that the Bible was saying that 08:53 it was an abomination which again threw me 08:55 into a tailspin wondering, how could He even address this 08:58 when all my life I thought that 09:00 that was how I was born and who I was. 09:03 I even thought as far as that God had created me that way. 09:07 But again as I continue to walk with God, 09:10 you know, He brought me 09:11 into more and more understanding, 09:13 not necessarily by resources through the church 09:16 but by studying His Word and reading Spirit of Prophecy 09:19 to find that there were promises there 09:22 that I could hold on to. 09:24 And so for church member 09:27 who would have an open homosexual in their church, 09:30 what's their criteria, 09:32 if they would have known that I was in a gay relationship, 09:34 I'm sure that they would not have baptized me. 09:36 But again what comes to my mind is that thing-- 09:39 In the Bible, the verse in the Bible that says, 09:41 "My ways are not your ways, 09:42 My thoughts are not your thoughts." 09:44 And I believe that Jesus knew 09:45 that I was so broken down with my relationship with men 09:48 that what He had to do is he had to hook me 09:50 into the understanding that He accepted me 09:52 for who I was which is truth but not all the truth. 09:55 And as I started to walk with Him legitimately, 09:57 He started to reveal Himself to me 09:59 as someone I could love and trust in. 10:01 As that grew, I was able to handle more information. 10:04 But again, doesn't that create a dilemma 10:07 then in our church culture, you know, at what point 10:10 do we accept homosexuals into our church 10:12 and this understanding of gay Christian? 10:15 You touched on something there 10:16 that I think we should build on as a, as a panel here. 10:20 And you said something about beginning a journey 10:24 and that's what the Christian life is. 10:27 When you accept Christ, you are becoming a Christian 10:31 which means you're accepting Him 10:33 as Lord and Master. 10:35 It's like you're entering a school, 10:37 a school of discipleship-- 10:40 Discipleship you enter the discipline 10:43 not the spanking, not the punishing, 10:45 but a school of training of education. 10:50 And you follow that instructor, 10:53 that Leader your Lord and your Master. 10:55 You feed on every word He says, you incorporated, you digested, 11:00 you assimilated, it becomes a part of you. 11:02 And so my understanding of being a Christian is, 11:07 you are now entering a life 11:10 where you are patterning yourself 11:12 after that Lord and Master. 11:15 And so to resist that, 11:20 to hang on to your homosexuality 11:22 is not entering that school of discipleship, 11:25 it's bringing the baggage with you 11:28 carrying it with you on a journey 11:30 and for and refusing to let it go. 11:33 I think that's also, you know, that what you're saying 11:36 there is beginning to lay the groundwork 11:38 for the church, the sanctuary. 11:42 You know, we don't... 11:43 We expect people in the past to have lost their spots 11:46 before they enter the church doors. 11:49 And so I think this is starting to say that 11:51 "Yes, gays need to be welcome to come into the church" 11:54 because where are you going to learn 11:56 if you're not going to learn 11:58 in the presence of God and His believers. 12:00 Yes, yes. 12:01 So as well defined members of the church, 12:06 it used to be that you would say, 12:08 "I don't know, you know, 12:09 because they're gonna be an influence 12:11 on my young one or that, 12:13 you know, like it might rub off. 12:15 Well, there's a difference between 12:17 someone who's in a membership position 12:19 and someone who is coming, who is thirsty, who is hungry. 12:22 And so I think if we would take the approach 12:25 again of reflecting the love of Jesus Christ, 12:28 loving the person not with a judgmental attitude, 12:32 but by continuing to present His grace, His mercy, 12:36 His beauty, His truth 12:37 and to invite that person into a loving relationship 12:40 with Jesus Christ where we can study things out together. 12:44 And the Bible asks us 12:45 to come together and reason together. 12:48 And so if you're worried about your children, 12:51 make sure that your representation to your children 12:53 is in a way that you're inviting them 12:55 into the same relationship with Jesus 12:58 as you're inviting the gay couple 13:00 or the gay people that might be coming into the church. 13:04 My concern is if we never address it, 13:09 then we allow humanity to accept 13:14 the erroneous statement and erroneous labeling. 13:22 If you see a gay Christian, there are lot of Christians 13:26 who love the Lord and they're not even sure-- 13:29 Who they are. Who they are... 13:31 Or if you can't be a Christian and be gay 13:33 because we don't address in the church. 13:35 So I'm saying-- I think that 13:36 it's important that we actually start to address this 13:40 because it's important not only for the sake 13:43 of those who want to minister to these individuals 13:46 but it's important for those individuals 13:48 If I'm told by and, you know, the law of forming churches. 13:54 If I'm told by these churches well, 13:56 you can be homosexual and God will accept you 14:00 and I had no counterbalance, then I'm gonna believe that lie 14:03 because obviously that's a easier lifestyle 14:07 to embrace than to break off the whole practice. 14:11 So I also admit that we have to start 14:14 dealing within the church, so that we can educate people 14:18 enough where they will accept that lie about 14:21 being a practicing homosexual 14:23 and a Christian at the same time. 14:25 We need to listen, you know, look at the words 14:27 of I think John the Baptist who was confronting people 14:31 who were wanting to be baptized. 14:33 And as I recall he was speaking to Pharisees 14:36 and various people who were wanting to be baptized 14:40 because it was a popular thing to do. 14:42 And he says, no, no, no. 14:43 He said, "Bring forth fruit meet for repentance." 14:46 In other words before you take this step, 14:48 you need to demonstrate 14:50 that you're willing to let things go. 14:51 Repentance means that you are, 14:53 you're going to change your life. 14:55 You... 14:56 It doesn't mean that you're perfect. 14:58 Repentance means you're submissive, 15:00 you're willing to be transformed 15:03 and if you bring forth 15:05 and demonstrate through your life 15:07 that you are willing to let things go 15:10 and you're willing to grow in Christ, 15:13 then you are ready for baptism. 15:17 But if you're bringing that with you, 15:19 you're not willing to let it go 15:20 and you're constantly identifying with that sin, 15:23 you had this perpetual negative reinforcement 15:27 always calling yourself homosexual, 15:29 you'll never rise above that 15:31 if you're constantly reinforcing it in your mind. 15:34 And, you know, when I wrote my book, 15:36 I was asked to use a pen name for my protection 15:40 because another author had been tracked down 15:44 and his house was burned to the ground 15:46 for even addressing the gay issue. 15:49 And so I spent more time coming up with the pen name 15:52 than in writing the book actually, 15:54 but I came up with the name Victor J Adamson. 15:58 I was contracted on radio talk shows 16:00 around the nation for three years 16:02 always being called Victor. 16:03 Well, what did that do for me? I was... 16:06 I became known as Victor, positive reinforcement. 16:09 Everyday I was being called Victor, Victor, Victor 16:13 and now I had a name to live up to 16:15 and I had to make sure that I die daily to Christ 16:18 and that I was submissive to Christ 16:20 because suppose I had a major fall, 16:23 what would that do to that name Victor? 16:25 How would that reproach Christ? 16:27 I'm taking His name as a Christian 16:29 and I didn't want to do that. 16:31 And so I had to let the gay thing go 16:33 and, you know, we will never rise above 16:38 the goal we set for ourselves. 16:40 And so Victor is a goal 16:42 and to me it was important to let 16:46 all of those other things go, get rid of them, 16:48 let them be washed away. 16:51 You know, I've been noticing 16:52 a Christian cultural change today 16:57 which is really called affirmation theology 17:01 versus reformation theology. 17:04 and so, I talk to people today about the feel-good messages 17:08 that come from many pulpits that affirm you who you are. 17:12 Jesus loves you just the way you are. 17:15 You don't need to do anything. 17:17 You don't need to change but and the fact of the matter 17:20 is that absolutely Jesus does love you 17:22 just the way you are, 17:24 but He doesn't want to leave you there. 17:25 Exactly. Yeah. 17:27 And so as we come to know Jesus Christ, 17:29 a reformation will take place, 17:31 but if we don't begin to speak from the platforms 17:34 or in our Bible studies or in our prayer meetings 17:38 about what is possible through Jesus Christ, 17:40 then we run the risk of rewriting 17:43 the Word of God according to the flesh. 17:45 The Bible says, 17:46 "Woe unto him who call of evil good, and good evil." 17:50 My concern is what about the publications, the media, 17:56 even the movies that are coming out 17:59 are trying to legitimize the oxymoron of gay Christian. 18:04 My concern is what damage is that doing 18:07 for the person who is really struggling? 18:09 Are we giving permission now to let go to struggle 18:12 and to embrace what the perversion? 18:15 This is the danger in my mind, this is the struggle 18:18 for me as I see things being like this 18:20 being proliferated across Christianity 18:23 through our churches and through our universities. 18:25 What happens when you have people, 18:27 who are going forward with a loud message 18:31 that about something 18:33 that they really don't know a whole lot about? 18:35 You know, you're bound 18:37 to bite off and chew and swallow 18:40 the very first thing that's given to you 18:43 rather than studying something out. 18:45 And the Hollywood type of approach 18:47 to something like that can be done 18:48 in such a way that great sympathy 18:51 is put out there for the person who has suffered the isolation, 18:55 the rejection and the alienation 18:57 and it grounds them in their sin 19:00 instead of what's possible through Jesus Christ. 19:03 If the believer doesn't understand 19:04 what's being done to them, 19:06 basically they're being brainwashed. 19:08 This also seems to have an application 19:12 even in our colleges and universities. 19:15 We have a forum that's on the internet 19:17 where we've actually been dialoguing 19:20 with a professor from a university 19:22 that is actually calling himself a gay Christian. 19:25 And what's amazing to us is a teacher who has tenure 19:30 in a Christian school 19:32 is actually promoting this understanding 19:34 that he is a gay celibate Christian. 19:37 A Christian school. Right. Right. 19:38 And that, that the theology that I have is going 19:43 to cause gays and lesbians to commit suicide. 19:47 And so it was a difficult struggle 19:49 to have this continued dialogue back and forth 19:53 because I felt that the professor 19:57 began to accept his feelings to equal truth 20:01 and couldn't find any really biblical backing 20:04 to help me realized that 20:06 what he was stating was biblical truth. 20:08 It really was just based upon what his feelings were. 20:11 And so it's really sad to see someone be able 20:14 to go to class and to tell this 20:15 to multiple individuals while I'm having difficulty 20:19 a lot of times getting on to the university 20:22 or into the church talking about 20:24 what Jesus Christ has done in my life 20:26 and that I know through my own experience, 20:29 as we know from our experiences 20:30 what Jesus has done in our lives, 20:33 but people don't want to hear it, sometimes 20:35 because it won't affirm their feelings, 20:37 leaving them where they are. 20:41 The political issue and that is we have churches, 20:46 Christian schools who are embracing this 20:49 it embolden the politicians to continue to force feed 20:55 this whole thing about it be a natural 20:57 and normal on our society. 21:00 I'm reminded when we went through 21:03 our just recent presidential situation 21:06 and you know that the NAACP was real supportive 21:11 of same gender marriage and what have you. 21:14 One of the guys that, 21:16 that I dialogued with made the statement, 21:18 he said, "I could never support something 21:21 that I fought so hard to be delivered from." 21:25 And that's so significant when we get statement, 21:28 but the question is, 21:30 if the church does not stand up and be delight, 21:36 then we have other religious organizations 21:39 that call themselves Christian in church 21:40 and what have you, they're promoting 21:42 this counterfeit and that will have 21:45 a devastating effect on our society. 21:47 This pendulum has swung so far the other way 21:50 that we even have heard a story of a woman 21:53 who is married to a pastor in our denomination 21:57 whose son was in the gay lifestyle. 21:59 Her son now since has left the gay lifestyle, got married, 22:03 had a child with this woman is married and happy 22:06 and his mother still promotes 22:08 that he is gay and he is in a... 22:10 Well, that the dialogue and about the comment 22:15 about the son was made is that God does not approve 22:18 of mixed orientation marriage. 22:20 That he is still gay even he is married with a child 22:22 and she's our pastor's wife. 22:24 So the idea is that he's living a lie. 22:27 Right. Lord, have mercy. 22:28 And that to me negates the whole concept 22:32 of being transformed by the renewing of the mind 22:36 and we're told that we are to be transformed, 22:39 not conformed to our tendencies in the world 22:42 but to be transform the whole thing about 22:45 becoming a Christian 22:46 and which is what we're talking about 22:48 is about being recreated, 22:52 reformed, transformed, rehabilitated, reconciled 22:59 and I have heard from, 23:02 I'm sure well-intentioned people 23:05 that they don't need to worry about their homosexuality, 23:09 they just need to be Christ-like. 23:12 And so they can be a Christian homosexual, 23:14 they just need to be Christ-like 23:16 and so immediately I say well, what was Christ-like? 23:20 If we're going to be Christ-like as Christians, 23:23 what was Christ-like. 23:25 And we can know through His life 23:27 but also He is revealed through His Word 23:31 and so we can hang on every Word of God. 23:34 That reveals what Christ was like, 23:36 it also reveals what He likes and what He does not like 23:41 and He makes it very plain 23:43 how He feels about sexual perversion of any kind 23:46 and many other sin issues. 23:48 So, gentlemen, I want to bring 23:49 this kind of to a conclusion and you started it, Ron. 23:53 So my next question is 23:55 "Acceptance into true Christianity 23:57 than conditional and if so, upon what criteria? 24:01 Then is there hope for the homosexual 24:04 in relationship to Christianity?" 24:06 And you started to touch on that 24:07 and I just wondered if we get, 24:09 you know, kind of end on that note to, 24:11 you know, to show the redemptive part. 24:13 I think it's important to recognize 24:16 our needed of a Redeemer 24:17 because if I'm fine just the way I am, 24:20 why do I need a Redeemer for. 24:22 All right. So it is a matter of... 24:25 It's a matter of coming to Jesus, 24:27 you know, that we here have talked about. 24:28 If I don't group myself 24:31 with other people around me who have similar attractions 24:35 or similar temptations and live in that, 24:38 but if I personally come to Jesus 24:41 and search His will for me through His Word, 24:45 I begin to see my need of a Savior 24:47 and that I constantly need to surrender 24:50 and to abide in Him 24:52 to have any change take place in my life. 24:54 You know in the story of the jailer at Philippi 24:56 when Paul and Silas were in prison 24:58 and they had a great earthquake 25:00 and the jailer came in 25:02 and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 25:05 The answer that Paul gave the jailer is so significant. 25:09 First of all we need to know what being saved is, 25:13 Jesus very name means deliverer. 25:15 You should call His name Jesus, 25:17 for He shall save His people from their sins. 25:19 That's right. 25:21 But Paul's answer to the jailer was, 25:23 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, 25:25 and thou shalt be saved." 25:27 And so I looked up the meaning Lord, quite often in the Bible 25:31 refers to Jehovah the Great I Am, 25:33 the Self Exist and Eternal One. 25:35 Jesus, Deliverer, Savior from what? 25:39 From sin. 25:40 And Christ, our Messiah, the Anointed One, 25:43 you put that all together and it's so beautiful, 25:46 believe on the Great Eternal I Am, 25:49 the Self Existent One, 25:51 your Creator anointed by the Holy Spirit 25:53 to be your personal savior from sin 25:56 and you shall be saved from sin, 25:59 even the sin of homosexuality. 26:02 Acknowledge your iniquity 26:03 and I will heal your backsliding God says. 26:06 So we need to understand 26:08 when we come to Christ as Christians, 26:10 we are coming to be saved from something. 26:14 If we call Him Savior, just calling Him Savior 26:18 acknowledges that we need to be saved from something. 26:22 And John 3:16 again 26:25 you know, comes back and asks us to believe in Him 26:28 that if we will believe in Him 26:30 instead of believing in self that He offers us eternal life. 26:35 I'm just impressed with your ministry 26:37 because you individuals are proof 26:41 that Christ can change, Christ will change 26:45 and you also proved that 26:46 you do not carry your past experiences 26:51 and your path labels once you become a new creature. 26:54 So you are all a proof 26:56 and you all be the glory to God. 26:58 And, Elder King, we are excited. 27:00 You know the amount of grace 27:02 that was poured out on our behalf 27:04 of coming out of this lifestyle, 27:06 imagine the confusion from our earliest years 27:09 of struggling with same-sex attraction 27:11 and the misunderstanding of God's grace 27:13 and now to have it poured out and to be redeemed from that, 27:16 we don't want homosexual attached to any part of that. 27:20 As a matter of fact, I believe that 27:21 if we kept that attachment that, 27:23 that cheapens the power of Jesus Christ 27:26 on the cross to overcome every sin. 27:28 Amen. 27:29 And so in conclusion, we definitely believe 27:33 that the word homosexual or gay 27:35 should not be associated with Christian 27:37 especially because of the biblical truths that, 27:39 that were pinching for us at first. 27:42 They were very difficult for me 27:44 especially because I wanted to keep my boyfriend 27:47 but through His grace, He's redeemed me 27:48 and I want to thank you, gentlemen, 27:50 for coming on this episode of Pure Choices. 27:52 Come back again and join us soon. |
Revised 2016-02-18