Participants: Mike Carducci (Host), Ron Woolsey, Wayne Blakely
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000033
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:41 Hi, I'm Mike Carducci with Coming Out Ministries, 00:44 your host today on "Pure Choices." 00:47 Today, I'm gonna be interviewing 00:48 some very good friends 00:50 who are also my ministry colleagues, 00:51 Wayne Blakely and also Ron Woolsey. 00:54 Today, we're gonna be talking about identity. 00:56 Does identity matter? 00:58 Yes, I'm gonna start off with Wayne. 01:00 Wayne, can you give us an idea of where you came from? 01:03 Can you give us a brief history of what your life's been like? 01:08 Sure. 01:09 First I just want to say that it is such a blessing 01:12 to be able to sit here with my ministry colleagues 01:15 who have experienced what I've walked through. 01:20 You know, we've just all done it little bit differently. 01:22 And we arrive sometimes 01:24 with some pretty rough beginnings and I do a... 01:27 Or I give a presentation called Out of Innocence, 01:30 and then after that presentation, 01:32 I move into identity matters and it's my walk, 01:37 my journey that has actually brought me 01:39 into the scope of identity matters 01:42 that really says something about who I am today. 01:45 But first, I can share with the viewers a little bit 01:47 about my past and my past was one 01:50 that I certainly didn't choose as none of you chose. 01:54 My natural mother carried me throughout her pregnancy 01:58 and during that time she was adamant about the fact 02:01 that she was having a baby girl and not a boy. 02:04 Before I was the age of two-years-old, 02:07 she had broken my left arm in two places 02:10 on two different occasions. 02:12 And so not only was I rejected before birth, 02:17 I was rejected after birth. 02:19 And that shaped pretty immediately 02:21 how I was gonna respond to the male gender. 02:25 I was gonna find safety in the male gender 02:27 or at least I was gonna look for safety in the male gender 02:29 and I look for love in the male gender. 02:32 But, you know, I was fortunate enough 02:34 that my aunt and uncle adopted me 02:38 when I was at two-years-old, of course being determined 02:42 that my natural mother was so abusive, 02:44 I needed to be placed somewhere else 02:46 the State told my father that either he remove me 02:51 and have me placed elsewhere or they would. 02:54 And so an aunt and uncle had been praying 02:57 and they said that they talk to my dad 03:00 and said we would like to adopt him. 03:03 We want him to grow up in a place where he is loved, 03:06 where he's needed, wanted and shown 03:09 the love of Jesus Christ 03:11 because he hasn't experienced that to this point. 03:14 In the process the damage, you know, had already been done 03:17 and before I was three-years-old, 03:18 I was running around the house screaming 03:20 "I don't want to be a boy, I want to be a girl." 03:23 And I would dress up in little scarves 03:26 and whatever I could find that 03:28 that had to do with the female gender 03:30 instead of the male gender. 03:31 So, Wayne, I want to take you back just a little bit. 03:34 What was it that your mother said to you 03:36 that put that idea in your head 03:38 that you didn't want to be a boy? 03:40 That I wasn't accepted as being a boy 03:43 and that and so by my not being accepted as a boy, 03:48 the only way I could regain 03:50 any kind of acceptance or feel myself 03:53 as being the person I was supposed to be in society 03:57 was to try to role model myself after a woman 04:00 even though I'd experienced hatred from a woman. 04:02 Right. 04:04 I remember I read in the book Ministry of Healing, 04:06 it talks about the in vitro care 04:08 of every unborn baby and already from the moment 04:12 that that you were conceived, 04:13 your mother was so determined that she was gonna have a girl 04:16 that you are already experiencing rejection 04:18 even before you were born. 04:20 And then when you were born, the thing that you told me 04:22 in the passes that your mother said 04:24 "You're no good as a boy, you should have been a girl." 04:27 And I believe that hearing those tapes 04:29 also affected this understanding 04:31 that you were no good as a boy. 04:33 Right. 04:35 Is that true? Yes, it is. 04:36 And so after even the adoption, you know, you can imagine now, 04:39 I'm in a place where they didn't have 04:41 those tapes playing that, that happened, 04:44 you know, from my natural mother 04:45 they weren't present. 04:46 And so they couldn't figure out what was going on. 04:49 I mean, they knew some abuse had taken place, 04:52 but as I began to grow up 04:55 and pass the ages of three and four and five 04:58 and I kept having more and more 05:00 desires for feminine type things 05:02 rather than masculine things, they didn't know what to do. 05:05 They reached out to teachers, they reached out to pastors, 05:09 nobody could fill them 05:10 and as to what should take place. 05:12 I went to school and, you know, 05:15 as soon as I entered school 05:17 I was teased, harassed and abused. 05:20 I hated school. By who, Wayne? 05:22 From the classmates who noticed 05:23 that I was different from other boys. 05:26 Male and female? 05:28 Yes, from girls too 05:29 but there was more comfort in women 05:31 than there was in men because the femininity, 05:33 they could identify with that it wasn't offensive to them 05:36 whereas in the male masculine role 05:41 as you're presenting with feminine characteristics, 05:43 you know, that's just not acceptable. 05:45 So the program is called Identity Matters 05:48 and already you are only an elementary school 05:51 and I'm confused myself how is it that a little boy 05:55 who is rejected by his birth mother, 05:57 you know, who said, "He was no good as a boy, 05:59 should have been a girl." 06:01 How was it that you attached to the feminine side 06:03 when it was also the feminine side that had abused you? 06:07 Because I was still looking for that acceptance. 06:09 I was still trying to get back to 06:11 what I was supposed to have been. 06:12 Well, all right. 06:14 And so already you painted a picture 06:17 of extreme confusion for me, keep going if you would. 06:21 So throughout my junior high and high school years, 06:27 I was still isolated. I was isolated in the church. 06:31 I was isolated when I started working. 06:33 I was... I had a female walk 06:37 that I didn't know had developed 06:40 but that it had and people would say, 06:42 "Oh, nice swing on that gate" 06:45 or they would start whistling and they would call me sissy, 06:48 homo and, you know, all kinds of other things 06:52 that I would go home at the end of that day 06:55 and I would go into the bathroom 06:56 and I would punch myself in the face 06:58 and I would scream at God and I would say "Why, God, why, 07:02 I was supposed to have been a girl not a boy? 07:05 Why am I having to endure this pain, this abuse?" 07:09 And I couldn't seem to change anything. 07:11 How old were you at that time? 07:14 When I was doing that, I was about 12 or 13. 07:17 Okay, all right. 07:18 And my dad would try to who is now my uncle 07:21 or my uncle had become my dad essentially, 07:24 he would try to get me out there to the garage 07:26 and to hold a ranch and, you know, 07:29 to do the manly things and to play baseball 07:32 and but the fact of the matter was, 07:34 I would swing at that ball 07:36 and it might as well had a hole in the bat, 07:38 I just couldn't hit it, you know. 07:39 The only thing I could really do was run 07:42 and thankfully, you know, my hips didn't swivel 07:44 when I ran or I probably would have gotten 07:46 teased about the way I ran. 07:48 But there were times I had to run pretty fast 07:50 because guys were chasing me 07:52 to pull my gym shorts down or want to beat me up 07:55 and I actually found out a couple years ago 07:58 that a guy that was going to school 08:01 in the same class as me looked a lot like me 08:04 and he had been being beat up on the way home from school 08:07 because they thought it was me. 08:09 So, Ron, as you're listening 08:11 to Wayne described his childhood. 08:14 Even though it's a far cry or different from the way 08:18 that you were raised, can you identify 08:20 with what he was going through at that age? 08:22 I can relate very much to Wayne's feelings 08:25 and his identity, 08:27 though mine came about in a much different way. 08:30 My mother has told me 08:31 that out of the four children that she had, 08:34 I was the only one that was planned. 08:37 So I wasn't rejected in vitro, I was not rejected at birth. 08:43 Very much planned and wanted but I was molested 08:46 when I was four-years-old and from that point on 08:52 it was a traumatic experience for me 08:54 and I didn't tell my parents what had happened, 08:57 I internalized and because I did not deal with it. 09:01 At four-years-old, I didn't know how to deal 09:02 with something like that. 09:05 But soon after that I started wetting the bed 09:08 and my parents had trained all other children by the time 09:12 they were two in that area. 09:14 So all of a sudden two years later 09:16 I am regressing, I'm going backwards 09:18 and my father didn't understand, 09:20 he thought I was just being lazy. 09:23 So he started dealing with me in an abusive way, emotionally. 09:29 He tried shaming me and to stop being lazy. 09:32 They even took me to a doctor 09:33 who told them I just being lazy, 09:35 there was nothing wrong with my kidneys and so. 09:37 Here I had this trauma of sexual molestation 09:39 which I didn't know how to deal with. 09:41 I was actually robbed of... 09:44 I think now robbed of my manhood. 09:46 I was confused about my identity. 09:48 And then my dad was emotionally 09:51 misunderstanding me and abusing me 09:52 and so I felt rejection from him 09:56 and I was out of country family, 10:02 I was more of a gentleman rather than a rough housing man 10:05 and I started playing the piano when I was five-years-old. 10:08 And while I'm playing the piano, 10:11 the other boys were out playing football 10:12 or baseball or whatever and they would mock me 10:15 and make fun of me like you, Wayne. 10:17 I was a sissy because I would rather play the piano 10:20 than play football. 10:21 So from many different directions, 10:23 I started feeling this rejection 10:25 and not knowing how to identify who I was. 10:28 My father did not accept me, my brothers made fun of me, 10:34 the peer group did the same. 10:36 And so I grew up feeling confused and unaccepted 10:40 and not knowing really who I was also 10:43 and grew up being called a sissy 10:46 and all of that because of, 10:48 simply because of playing the piano. 10:51 It didn't help that I started crocheting 10:52 when I was seven-years-old, I don't suppose 10:55 because here I was a bedwetting, 10:56 crocheting, piano playing a little kid 10:59 instead of out playing football and baseball. 11:01 And so I guess I gave them ammunition 11:05 but nevertheless I grew up feeling confused 11:07 and warped and so forth about my identity. 11:10 But if you constantly feel rejection from masculinity, 11:14 doesn't it make sense then 11:16 that you would move towards femininity? 11:18 And so like you and yet totally different, 11:21 I didn't come from sexual abuse like you, Ron, 11:24 and I didn't come from physical abuse like you, Wayne. 11:26 I grew up in a home 11:29 where the dad was basically absent. 11:32 My dad was in the navy 11:34 and he was in the Navy jazz band. 11:36 He was good looking 11:37 and he was a hot-headed Italian. 11:39 So when he was gone, 11:40 you know, things were pretty quiet 11:41 with my mom and my sisters, 11:43 but when dad was home he was aggressive 11:45 and I guess it was abusive 11:47 because, you know, we heard a lot of words like 11:50 stupid, dummy, idiot 11:53 and my mom even confirmed a couple years ago 11:55 that that she would look at my dad 11:57 and think to herself "Why are you competing 11:59 with the two-year-old, 12:00 you know, in relationship to me?" 12:02 So at a time when I wasn't even conscious about that, 12:05 he was so aggressive and abusive 12:08 and then when he was gone, 12:09 I viewed that also as abandoning 12:11 that I basically rejected the masculinity 12:14 and reverted back to the femininity. 12:15 Mom was safe, you know, she wasn't explosive 12:19 and she was always there. 12:21 You know, Mike and Wayne, 12:23 as we're sitting here comparing our beginnings 12:27 and how we were derailed in life 12:30 from one way or another. 12:32 An observation is coming to my mind 12:36 that as we were being pushed by circumstances, 12:39 by rejection, by abuse, by molestation, 12:42 by absentee fatherism and so forth. 12:47 We eventually came to view 12:51 the male gender as the opposite sex. 12:54 We were not brought up in it, we were not schooled in it, 12:58 there was an absent factor in our development 13:02 to where it became more like a mystery, 13:05 like it should have been with the female gender. 13:08 The male gender became like the opposite sex 13:12 in which we are now attracted because of the mystique 13:15 and not having being schooled in that. 13:18 Would you agree that's kind of the way we ended up? 13:21 Ron, that is so profound. 13:23 It's explosive to understand that the things 13:27 that we share also that you brought out, 13:29 I can absolutely identify with them relate to. 13:32 How about you, Wayne? 13:34 Yeah, I absolutely, you know, because of the comfort 13:38 in identifying more in the femininity, 13:41 then why wouldn't you be attracted to the male 13:44 as was meant to be in the natural course of life. 13:48 There was nothing that was happening... 13:51 Excuse me, from, from within the school system 13:55 or inside of our church system 13:58 that was helping me find any kind of healing. 14:01 But what actually what I was doing 14:03 was I was reading the Word of God 14:04 and I was saying, you know, all the verses 14:06 that I was reading about homosexuality, 14:08 was going "Oh, my. 14:10 I can't believe this, dear Lord, this is me. 14:12 I didn't ask for this. 14:14 I didn't choose this, how could this possibly be me?" 14:17 And so even though I was walking 14:20 with this more feministic type of personality, 14:25 I couldn't understand how was that I arrived at this 14:28 because I didn't choose this. 14:30 And so when I came out of the closet 14:31 or a gentleman brought me out of the closet, 14:34 you know, he said to me 14:36 "Hey, you know, your denomination 14:38 or Christianity has bred homosexuality." 14:41 And I said "What?" 14:43 And he said "Yeah, he says, you're gay, I'm gay, 14:45 I know other guys who are gay and we're... 14:48 They're very good at telling us 14:50 that the Bible says that this is sin 14:52 but nobody's telling us what to do about it." 14:55 And so I said "Well, goodbye Christianity 14:57 and goodbye God, you know, I'm out of here." 15:00 And I embraced immediately my gay identity. 15:03 Wayne, I have a similar instance, 15:05 it was after I had left church culture looking for resources, 15:08 looking for someone I could confide in 15:10 and after they said something so derogatory 15:12 about women I rejected and I walked out and I said, 15:15 "God, if that's the best you got, I'm out of here." 15:17 And a year or so later, 15:18 I'm in a gay bar on a Friday night. 15:21 The man in front of me orders a drink from the bartender 15:23 and they wish each other happy Sabbath. 15:25 And then I looked into and I thought, 15:27 you know, are you, you know, Christians? 15:30 And they said, "Well, yeah, 15:31 you know, we came from the same church 15:33 and I wish them happy Sabbath." 15:35 And then another guy further down on the bar 15:37 also said that he also had come from the same denomination. 15:41 And so again here I was on a Friday night 15:44 with four other men that had been ostracized 15:47 or lost out of the church culture 15:50 and had felt no opportunities for redemption 15:53 or no one that was willing to not only reach out to them 15:55 and call them back in, 15:57 but certainly not even relate to the issues 15:58 that we were all struggling with at the time. 16:00 So I understand and feel what you're talking about. 16:05 You know, I would say that even, 16:07 even if there were those in the church 16:09 that did care and were reaching out, 16:13 somehow it did not resonate with us. 16:16 And, you know, when I left Christianity 16:19 bitter against God and so forth, 16:22 my tendency was to blame, but I've been careful not to 16:27 because I realize, I had a lack of understanding. 16:32 And what I would say is that in my circles 16:36 where they were trying to help I suppose, 16:38 if there was an effort, they didn't understand how. 16:41 They didn't know how to reach someone like you and me. 16:44 They were not equipped. 16:45 They did not have the tools and that's one reason 16:47 why we're here today as Coming Out Ministries. 16:50 We have, we have come a long ways through a journey. 16:55 The Lord has led us to where we are today 16:59 through our own study, our own research, 17:02 our own experience to where now we three, 17:06 you know, in Coming Out Ministries, 17:07 we feel called of the Lord to help equip the church. 17:11 When I say the church, any Christian who will listen, 17:14 we have discovered by God's grace tools 17:17 that can help people avoid going the direction 17:22 that we went if we can reach them soon enough. 17:25 And so, I praise the Lord for how He has led us 17:29 out of darkness into His marvelous light 17:32 and He's given us now tools to work with, 17:34 so others don't have to experience 17:37 what we felt the rejection that we felt or perceived. 17:40 I love the way that you describe that, Ron, 17:43 and, you know, identity, you know, is this thread 17:45 that is woven through our very first experiences 17:48 even before you were born, Wayne. 17:50 And so as that identity is woven through this, 17:54 God has brought us together in an incredible way. 17:57 Ron, you've been a pastor and out of that lifestyle 17:59 for over 20 years, married with the family. 18:01 Wayne, you've been walking, 18:03 you know, with legitimacy for over four years now. 18:05 I've been out of this lifestyle for 12. 18:07 And all the sudden, just a year and a half ago, 18:09 little over a year and a half ago, 18:11 God miraculously brought us together 18:12 and our own individual ministries. 18:15 I never would have thought 18:16 that we would have had the scope of outreach 18:19 that we've had even as of today. 18:22 But what's incredible is even by our diverse past, 18:25 we also had differences in the ministry that we are, 18:28 that we are, that we present. 18:31 As a matter of fact, I relate to people 18:32 who are sexually defiled coming from pornography 18:35 and sexual addiction. 18:36 Wayne, your ministry is to reach out 18:38 to the church culture to, 18:40 you know, talk about educating the churches 18:43 on how to receive homosexuality, 18:45 how to relate and create a safe environment 18:47 and, Ron, who has a church and a family of your own. 18:50 You've been doing this ministry 18:51 and you've been doing your presentations 18:53 for 20 years by yourself. 18:55 So what's incredible is the way that this has come about, 18:58 but what I want to talk a little bit more 19:00 and I want to stay on this thing 19:01 about identity is, Wayne, as you came into Christianity, 19:06 talk to me about how your identity changed 19:09 and what that means for you today? 19:11 Well, when I first began to share my testimony, 19:15 I wasn't sure who I was that I was now. 19:19 And so I knew that I had been redeemed, 19:22 but I didn't know when I would walk into 19:26 public environments to speak, tell them who I was 19:30 and so it was said by one person, 19:34 "Well, you're still gay. 19:35 You know, you're gay Christian." 19:37 And I was like, you know what? 19:38 That's really what God redeemed me from, 19:40 why would I identify with what He brought me out of? 19:43 And so then I switched to this idea 19:46 of identifying by the attraction. 19:49 So they would say "Well, your same-sex attracted Christian." 19:52 I was like, you know what? 19:53 That's still kind of leaves me shackled to my past. 19:58 You know, that doesn't seem right. 20:00 It seems like there's supposed to be some kind of freedom 20:02 when you're baptized that you go under the water 20:05 that you don't really necessarily come up straight, 20:07 but you come up as a new creature in Jesus Christ. 20:11 Yeah, but it wasn't holy water, was it, Wayne? 20:13 Oh, I think it was. 20:15 I think that we have a tendency to think that, 20:18 that water is miraculous as its effect 20:20 but like you I came up still a homosexual 20:24 with the homosexual feelings 20:26 and definitely in sexual addiction. 20:27 Yeah, I don't, I mean, it was holy water 20:30 and that what transpired 20:32 there was that the old self died 20:34 and the new creature came up out of that water. 20:37 But what... 20:39 But from the standpoint and what, Ron, 20:40 you were mentioning a little bit earlier 20:42 about blame and ignorance 20:44 and I see some responsibility in here, 20:47 the church has been very much sitting, 20:50 watching this all take place, 20:52 you know, year over years and years 20:54 of the evolution of homosexuality 20:57 and really done nothing because of their ignorance, 21:00 they haven't known what to do. 21:02 And that's where I believe divine intervention came in, 21:06 and God said, you know what? 21:07 "I have taken people from worst places 21:10 and put them in higher places to show 21:13 and to reflect My love, My truth 21:17 and the teaching of what really needs to transpire, 21:20 the transformation that is possible through Me. 21:22 Not just about homosexuality, 21:25 but about adultery, about pride, about gossip, 21:28 about, you know, overeating about. 21:30 Whatever our sin condition is, 21:32 it's about learning to come together. 21:35 James 5:16 tells us to come together 21:38 and confess our sins one to another 21:41 and to pray for the healing that is possible 21:44 through Jesus Christ. 21:45 And I believe that is where the church 21:47 becomes the family that God meant it to be. 21:50 Awesome. Beautiful. 21:52 Ron? 21:54 When I came into the, 21:55 into the faith and later into ministry, 22:00 there was still confusion about my identity 22:02 because I remember as a new minister, 22:07 excuse me, but I would be doing ministry work 22:11 and with other people and I noticed that tongues 22:15 begin to wag if I was seen with one of the church 22:18 ladies doing ministry work. 22:21 And I thought, well, why would, why would that be. 22:24 I come out of the gay life, 22:26 there should be no concern here, you know. 22:28 I wasn't inclined to be straight or to marry. 22:32 I was just going to be 22:33 a Christian the rest of my life. 22:36 Well, then we had a young Bible worker 22:37 come and join our work 22:39 and he was a nice looking young fellow 22:41 and we were very good friends 22:42 and then we did some work together. 22:46 Tongues begin to wag 22:48 because now here's the pastor with this young man 22:51 and I got to thinking, I can't be seen with anybody. 22:55 My identity is so confused not with me, 22:58 I know who I am but the church doesn't know for sure. 23:01 I can't be seen with a woman, 23:03 I can't be seen with the man, Lord, help. 23:06 And, you know, the Lord intervened, 23:07 I mean within just a few months. 23:11 I met my wife who I really met as a child 23:15 and we were married and in short order 23:18 which surprised me 23:19 because I was not inclined to go that way, 23:21 but the Lord worked in such a way 23:24 that He created a new identity for me 23:27 and put me in a ministry, in a marriage and with family 23:31 and, you know, the tongues have never wagged since then. 23:34 And I think the Lord established an identity with me 23:39 because of the calling that He gave me in ministry. 23:42 And I just rejoice to see how the Lord can take us 23:47 from wherever we are, put us where He wants us to be, 23:51 He will give us the identity 23:53 that we need to accomplish His purposes. 23:55 Oh, that's right, Ron. 23:56 And, you know, when I came in a church culture, 23:58 I didn't even know what well, defile was. 24:02 And so like a little kid who sees a bug in the milk, 24:04 you know, and if they are really young 24:06 they just drink the milk, you know. 24:07 And then as they get a little bit older, 24:08 they take the bug out of the milk 24:10 and drink the milk. 24:11 And then, you know, by learning, 24:13 by the time they get to be about three-years-old 24:14 they recognize that the milk is defiled by the bug 24:16 and they don't drink the milk. 24:18 So as I began that journey with the Lord, 24:20 you know, I got baptized 24:22 and as I start to walk with Him, 24:24 it was a lot of falling down but Jesus was encourager 24:27 to tell me to get back up 24:29 and I never chose to be straight. 24:31 I didn't think it was possible, therefore I didn't pursue it 24:34 and I knew I certainly couldn't change my behavior. 24:37 I wasn't going to do what I did in high school 24:39 and just do behavior modification 24:40 by getting a girlfriend and living frustrated. 24:43 That in itself was a private hell. 24:45 And so what was great as Jesus said, 24:47 "No, Mike, you can change your attractions. 24:49 You can change your feelings. 24:51 All I'm asking you to do is submit them to Me, 24:54 let Me take control of them." 24:55 And as I started walking with God 24:57 and again messier first, I would fall 24:59 and He would say "Get back up." 25:01 But as I kept in that same direction with Jesus Christ, 25:04 I started to get relief from the sexual addiction drive 25:08 and then I also started to get relief 25:10 from the same sex attraction 25:11 and then and then regular attractions 25:14 to the opposite sex started coming in. 25:16 Spiritual growth. That's right. 25:18 And so each one of us... 25:20 I've been out for 13 years, you for over 20 25:23 and Wayne for four 25:24 and we're all still in different positions 25:26 because God knows that He can't give us all of it 25:28 to go through at one sitting. 25:30 He knows that He's gonna give it to us 25:32 as we can handle it. 25:34 And we're here to testify of His saving grace 25:36 at every stage along the way. 25:38 And I might add, my marriage has been for 20 years. 25:42 Now I came out of the gay life 21 years ago, 25:45 I've been married for 20. 25:47 Together we have five children, five grandchildren. 25:50 The Lord is good. Yes. Yes. 25:53 You're powerful example. 25:55 I would just like to say that if you're watching 25:57 and you're part of a church ask for your pastor, 26:02 ask for your leadership to get involved in the process 26:05 because rather than watching... 26:07 I believe that God wants you to get involved 26:09 in the process of the healing. 26:11 And so it isn't the embracing 26:14 of the same-sex attracted individual 26:17 or the sinner with any sin temptation 26:19 that the transformation begins to take place 26:21 as you reflect the love of Jesus Christ. 26:23 Amen. Wayne, that's a great thought. 26:25 And so for audience out there, 26:27 we definitely want to let you know that 26:29 that as we have shared our history 26:31 you can see how the identity has gotten so confused 26:34 by the circumstances and the situations 26:37 that were done in vitro as well as the things 26:40 after we were born and as we were being raised, 26:42 we know that you also probably know 26:44 somebody who is struggling with homosexuality. 26:46 And so we want to encourage you and to talk to your pastor, 26:50 take it to the local conference 26:52 as well as the general conference 26:53 and to let them know that you need these resources 26:56 that you want to be able to reach out to this community. 26:59 And so as you, as you write your letters 27:02 and call your local pastor, we want to encourage you 27:06 that we can actually get the word out 27:08 that there is redemption available for homosexuals. 27:11 And so, Wayne, if you would give us our final thought. 27:15 You know, as a prodigal returning 27:18 versus the church body, it's so important for us 27:21 to keep the spirit of humility with one another. 27:24 My returning and forgiving the church for their ignorance 27:28 and the church in forgiving itself 27:30 for not having addressed this 27:31 over all these years, get involved now. 27:33 Great. 27:35 So as we come to a conclusion, we want to thank you 27:38 for watching our program on Identity Matters. 27:40 As you've experienced today, identity truly does matter 27:44 and we want to encourage you to continue watching 27:46 as Coming Out Ministry hosts on Pure Choices 27:50 during the next several days. |
Revised 2016-02-18