Participants: Mike Carducci (Host), Wayne Blakely
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000035
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:42 I am Mike Carducci with Coming Out Ministries, 00:45 your host for today's program Pure Choices. 00:47 I have with me my friend and colleague Wayne Blakely 00:50 from Coming Out Ministries. 00:51 And we want to talk about Jesus being our reparative therapist. 00:56 That may not sound very clear to a lot of people out there 01:00 that may be watching this program. 01:01 Wayne, give me an idea, what is reparative therapy? 01:05 How long do we have? Half an hour. 01:07 Okay. 01:09 Well, you know, we want to take a look at the recent law 01:12 that was passed here in California 01:15 about reparative therapy 01:18 not actually being allowed anymore 01:20 in the state of California. 01:22 Can you give me just an idea though for our viewers 01:24 who don't understand, what is reparative therapy? 01:27 That would be in most reparative therapy circles, 01:32 the idea that you can take somebody 01:34 who is gay and make them straight. 01:38 What would that be, 01:39 what would that type of therapy be? 01:41 You know, there's all kinds 01:42 of different therapies involved in, 01:45 the promise is that we can rewire you 01:49 and get you connected to your appropriate gender. 01:52 And in doing so one of the things 01:55 I recently saw a film, 01:57 Christian based film 01:59 where one of the partners in the film said, 02:02 "You know, I went through five years 02:04 of reparative therapy." 02:06 And so he opens up and shows a book 02:08 of a guy laying in his father's arms, 02:11 and the idea is that if you're rocked 02:13 in your father's arms over a period of time, 02:16 of therapy time 02:17 that you will no longer want to engage 02:20 in intimacy with a male, a sexual intimacy with a male. 02:24 And so that really kind of ruined him, 02:26 he went through five years of this. 02:28 And, you know, I was at the film where this... 02:31 where he was actually 02:34 and I went to him afterwards and I said, 02:36 "You know, I'm really sorry 02:38 that you went through that 02:40 because that's not the kind of therapy 02:42 that would engage you with Jesus Christ. 02:44 That's just trying to set you right in some kind of idea 02:49 about the appropriate sexual function 02:52 that you're supposed to have." 02:54 And to me 02:55 it's kind of ridiculous that going things 02:57 from that angle as opposed to going through therapy 03:02 and getting my life back 03:04 in right standing with Jesus Christ 03:05 in what my gender is through him. 03:08 I see. 03:09 Is it true that some reparative therapy includes men 03:14 that are homosexual to watch heterosexual pornography? 03:18 Yes, that's one of the therapies involved. 03:20 And they believe that if they immerse you 03:22 in this that you will finally get it, 03:25 you know, your mind will get things wired 03:27 so that you will want to engage in heterosexual sex. 03:31 But if this is being used as a therapy for someone 03:35 who's coming out of a gay life 03:37 into engaging into a relationship 03:41 with Jesus Christ now, my question is still, 03:43 why are we putting the cart before the horse? 03:46 Isn't it true that Jesus says 03:48 that we only need to fall in love 03:52 with one person for our life, one person of the opposite sex? 03:57 We don't need to fall in love with the entire population 04:01 of the opposite sex 04:02 and that God will go about putting that person 04:05 in front of us 04:07 when it's according to His plan. 04:09 And not that we should go about this from a therapy standpoint 04:14 that we're trying to wire somebody 04:15 so that they want to engage in sexual relationships 04:19 with the opposite sex, because if you do that, 04:21 you accomplish that who's to say 04:24 that I'm not going to now want to start chasing every woman 04:26 that I see 04:28 instead of just being suited for one woman. 04:31 And the damage in this 04:33 that has been caused over time is phenomenal 04:36 and that's why it's been turned into a law now 04:39 that in the state of California that this kind of therapy 04:41 is not being allowed. 04:43 There's been a lot of people 04:44 who've ended up committing suicide 04:46 because of these approaches and techniques. 04:48 All right. 04:49 So there's definitely a difference between 04:51 the Christian approach to restoration, right, 04:54 and the reparative therapy. 04:56 So why would the law in California 05:00 have anything to do with Christianity? 05:03 You know, I don't know, 05:05 well, because there have been people 05:07 under the guise 05:10 of Christianity 05:13 that have maybe been using 05:14 some of these techniques 05:17 in thinking that they're doing the right thing. 05:19 Again, not understanding 05:21 what it is that Jesus is calling us to 05:24 and the healing that is promised 05:25 through Jesus Christ. 05:26 There are various ways 05:28 that we can help people reconnect with Jesus 05:30 and with their own masculinity or femininity 05:35 if you're a woman 05:36 who's wanting to come back and get rewired 05:39 according to God's plan for you. 05:41 But by the application 05:42 of some of these bizarre techniques, 05:47 a lot of them aren't done under Christianity at all. 05:50 I guess that's one of the main points here 05:52 is that there's so much therapy out there 05:53 that is just saying... 05:55 As a society 05:57 we can go and change somebody's 05:58 sexual preference and let's just put it 06:00 into the role of what is more accepted 06:03 so that this person has a more natural life. 06:06 But I'm looking at it I guess from the standpoint of, 06:10 from Christianity it seems odd and awkward to me 06:15 to put sex out there 06:17 as trying to fix the sex problem 06:19 rather than trying to bring the person 06:22 back into an intimate relationship 06:23 with Jesus Christ where He's in charge, 06:27 He's my reparative therapist. 06:30 He's the one that showing me 06:33 by engaging in doing, 06:36 living life according to His will, 06:39 He's been able to show me along the way 06:41 in my relationships now 06:43 as they have developed with men inside my church, 06:48 with men that He is now putting me 06:50 in touch with as friends, 06:53 who are mentors to me now and through this mentorship 06:57 I'm finding out about life not from a sexual relationship 07:02 with another man 07:03 but from a relationship in which 07:05 I become a friend of His 07:08 and have a morally beautiful relationship 07:11 with this person instead of the way my life 07:15 was mapped under the deception 07:17 of my feelings that were brought on by Satan. 07:20 Okay. 07:21 So, Wayne, being, 07:23 you know, members of Coming Out Ministries, 07:25 we both had been redeemed from homosexuality. 07:28 What's been incredible is I didn't even know that, 07:31 you know, God could take away 07:32 the wrong impulses and the wrong desires 07:35 and He'd give me healthy ones. 07:36 And you know, we've both been submitted 07:38 to the process of Jesus doing that work that He needs to do 07:42 and while we didn't have an instantaneous, 07:45 you know, magic wand over the head 07:47 if you would experience and you know, 07:49 we didn't come up out of the water 07:50 and ready to date and mate and all of that, 07:52 but as we've been in that process 07:54 it's been more than just behavior modification 07:58 which some of reparative therapy seems 07:59 to mimic is about, 08:01 you know, one of the things that I did in high school is, 08:04 you know, I promptly got a girlfriend, 08:05 you know, to make sure I looked right 08:07 and I thought that, 08:08 you know, even if I engaged in, 08:11 you know, some petting with my girlfriend 08:13 and, you know, it had arouse me to a point I thought, 08:15 "Well, maybe if I got married that all of these feelings 08:17 would go away," 08:19 and I know that many people 08:20 who struggle with homosexual tendencies do 08:23 that hoping that that would be the cure 08:25 when in actuality it keeps it laden 08:28 and what happens is it ends up 08:30 just kind of busting out of the seams at a later time. 08:33 And so reparative therapy, 08:35 by what I'm hearing you say is really not dealing 08:40 with the root cause 08:41 which is, you know, 08:42 allowing Jesus Christ to do the rewiring. 08:45 Letting behavior modification 08:46 or certain therapies to tap into some of the reasons 08:50 why we seek male love, 08:53 but yet what you're saying is that 08:55 there's a different connection that's vital. 08:57 And so, Wayne, why is it that that you say 09:00 Jesus is your reparative therapist? 09:03 Well, because God offers healing 09:08 for any of our inadequacies. 09:12 And as I trust in Him and I seek His word 09:16 and I begin to walk with Him daily, 09:20 I see Him beginning to reshape my life. 09:22 And people ask me today, 09:24 "Oh, so do you think you'll get married?" 09:26 You know, it's like everybody wants the proof, 09:29 you know, and then they'll know for sure 09:30 that if you get married 09:32 that the healing has taken place. 09:34 And so today I'm not so sure 09:36 that my right wiring is such that God, 09:41 that has design for me is to, 09:43 you know, immediately get married 09:44 and then say, 09:46 "Ah, you're fixed now, you're justified." 09:48 And I think that 09:50 what God has been saying to me is that, 09:52 "Wayne, I want for you to come back 09:55 into a relationship with me, 09:58 one in which your focus is on me. 10:01 Your daily living is centered in me. 10:04 And don't be surprised 10:06 if I actually put in front of you 10:09 the one woman as a gift to you." 10:13 How many women? 10:15 The one woman. All right, okay. 10:16 Yeah, just want to make... 10:17 Just want to make sure that we understand that. 10:19 As we, you know, as a world, 10:21 as a society today 10:22 we have this whole sex agenda out there that's like, 10:26 we're all going to be having sex 10:28 with multiple partners 10:30 and it's just flashing at you all over the place. 10:33 Where as God is saying, 10:34 "You know, this is a gift of intimacy 10:37 that I will engage you with the person 10:39 that I want you to fall in love with, 10:42 and if I want you 10:43 to fall in love with this person 10:45 and I have... 10:46 And your focus is on me, 10:49 then I have a relationship with you 10:52 in which is now become pure 10:54 and you have a right wiring to be able to see the person 10:57 that I want you to fall in love with." 10:59 And these feelings are going to follow. 11:01 They're not going to have to be something 11:03 that's programmed by a psychologist 11:05 or psychiatrist for which has happened, 11:08 that's the goal for many of these therapies today 11:11 and the person entering it 11:13 may have also just come back to Jesus Christ. 11:16 And so because it's out there now, 11:18 I mean, this has been topic, 11:19 a big topic today 11:21 through some of the larger organizations 11:23 that are dealing 11:24 with the return of the homosexuals 11:27 coming back into a relationship with Jesus Christ. 11:29 And some of them are ditching the reparative therapy books 11:32 because they're beginning to see 11:34 this also has been something 11:36 that has been causing harm and danger to people 11:39 that they think that they need to satisfy 11:42 the heterosexual type of look, 11:49 the heterosexual behavior, 11:51 if we can get people engaged 11:53 in that then that can again be proof 11:55 that the conversion is complete. 11:56 And so I still say this today as many people are saying 12:00 that the opposite of homosexuality 12:03 is not heterosexuality but holiness. 12:07 And I trust God because I know that God, 12:10 if He wants me to have 12:12 a beautiful woman for me to love 12:14 and He is now trusting that I have engaged 12:17 in the right relationship with Him, 12:19 that very well could be a gift, 12:22 a fruit of my recovery with Jesus Christ 12:25 but not one 12:26 that is orchestrated by mankind, 12:28 but that's actually been orchestrated by God. 12:31 The beauty of God is He is the great physician, 12:34 He's our Creator and our Maker. 12:36 And so Jesus is intimate 12:38 with every nuance of your life 12:42 from the moment that you were born 12:43 even conceived until now, 12:45 so as a great physician He knows the exact therapy 12:49 that you're in and that you're under 12:50 and so until the time that you are to the point 12:54 where you could be in a healthy relationship 12:56 with one woman, He knows when that timing is. 12:59 And so as we submit to that process, 13:02 you know, it's about Him getting us ready 13:04 and then when the time is right, 13:06 it'll be fruitful, 13:07 it'll be everything that it was meant to be. 13:09 Our brother said something yesterday 13:11 that I thought was profound, 13:12 who's been married, 13:14 it was Elder Raymond King and he said, 13:16 "Isn't it interesting 13:17 that it took Solomon a 1000 women 13:20 to get what he gets with just one woman." 13:23 And that was the satisfaction, 13:25 the intimacy that he was craving. 13:28 He thought by going to other women 13:29 and we know 13:31 that he had beautiful women at his disposal 13:33 but we also know that he had men 13:35 in his life as well. 13:36 He said, "Everything that my eye saw I touched." 13:39 So we know that Solomon was very degraded sexually 13:42 by the things that he had beheld. 13:43 But I love the contrast 13:45 that our brother said yesterday about the fact 13:47 that he chased around all of these situations 13:50 and never found satisfaction, 13:51 never found the satisfaction 13:53 that our brother gets with one wife. 13:55 That's right. 13:56 So, you know, it's interesting to note 13:58 that that Jesus offers a different type of therapy 14:03 than reparative therapy. 14:05 And so I believe 14:06 that what we're really trying to differentiate 14:09 is that reparative therapy 14:10 isn't like Christianity in the sense 14:13 that Jesus wants to do the work 14:15 on the inside. 14:16 One of the things that we get a lot, Wayne, 14:18 is when we do our presentations people 14:20 look at us and they go, 14:21 "Are you sure that you're healed?" 14:23 You know, and some of the residue 14:24 which is what we call, 14:26 you know, that ability to still have 14:28 a feminine mannerisms 14:29 or to still have a flair for color 14:32 or whatever that is, 14:33 you know, we understand 14:35 that that there are scars to healing 14:38 that when you have a wound that wound is really a sign 14:42 that there's been healing taken place. 14:44 And so the beauty is that Jesus doesn't look on the outside, 14:48 Jesus looks on the heart. 14:49 And so I think one of the things 14:51 that we have to turn around for people 14:53 who may be, 14:54 you know, watching us and saying, 14:55 "That, you call that a redeemed homosexual?" 14:58 Yes, because Jesus didn't do the work on the outside. 15:02 Some of those things are residual 15:05 from the way that we were born. 15:07 I accepted femininity as my identity at an early age 15:10 when my cement was wet if you would, and so, you know, 15:13 my identity became stamped in the feminine, 15:15 some of those traits will be with me until Jesus comes. 15:18 But the fact remains that the work that Jesus has done 15:21 on the inside far exceeds anything 15:24 that I believe reparative therapy would do. 15:27 Right. 15:28 You know, some of our cultural wiring 15:31 has been so hardwired that we are not open 15:34 to looking at some of this fluctuation. 15:37 Society has put us in a box, you know, 15:40 that masculinity has to look a certain way. 15:45 And that if we don't, if we don't look like that 15:48 then we're not who we were meant to be, 15:50 we're not normal. 15:52 But you know, we just came back from Africa 15:55 and what was normal here was quite different in Africa 15:59 because in Africa when you go and you pat a man on the back, 16:05 he's going to get pretty annoyed with you 16:07 pretty soon because when you do the masculine pat on the back 16:10 that we do here in the United States, 16:13 that's a pick up line in Africa saying that 16:16 you want to involve yourself intimately 16:18 with that man in Africa. 16:20 Where as the reverse is happening in Africa 16:23 where as two men will hold hands together 16:26 and walk down the street together 16:28 and has nothing to do 16:30 with wanting to have some kind of sexual intimacy 16:33 between the two of them. 16:35 Right. Right. 16:36 And so it says something to me about how we need to maybe 16:39 be a little bit more humble in our church environments 16:44 about how we look at the returning homosexual. 16:48 That we begin to develop relationships 16:51 that aren't so much based on their feminine 16:54 or their masculine characteristics 16:56 but what is on the inside about what Jesus is doing 17:01 in this person's heart. 17:02 Yeah. 17:03 So I think it's important that we look at what King David said 17:07 which is that we are fearfully and wonderfully made. 17:11 There are many feminine type men 17:14 that are married today that their wives would say, 17:17 "My husband's a great lover," 17:18 and so we have this thing in society 17:20 that we've just had this conditioning to think 17:23 that masculinity means this and femininity means that. 17:27 And so as a church community if we could come together 17:31 and allow some of this cultural environment 17:37 that has hardwired us to drop off a bit 17:39 and just go to the Word of God and look at 17:42 who we are in Jesus Christ, 17:44 not place judgments on one another 17:47 and allow ourselves to engage with one another without, 17:52 you know, making these prejudgments. 17:53 It would just be amazing to see what's possible. 17:57 You know, Wayne, I think of two contrasting stories 18:00 or situations that I had. 18:03 When I first came back at 40 years old, 18:06 there was this very humble Spanish couple 18:10 and they had a 10 year old daughter. 18:12 And they let three of us homosexuals into their house 18:16 and we were having a Sunday evening Bible study. 18:18 What was amazing is this humble couple, 18:20 they didn't even have much in the way, you know, 18:23 of where they lived, it was in a low income housing area 18:26 whatever but I'm telling you they gave us everything 18:29 that they had, they loved us. 18:31 And I think it finally dawned on them 18:33 that I think we're entertaining three homosexuals in our home 18:36 and now they've shared with me, 18:39 they're very good friends of mine still. 18:40 But they shared with me that they were talking about, 18:43 "What should we do, 18:44 we have three homosexuals in our home 18:46 and a 10 year old daughter?" 18:47 And the husband looked at his wife and he said, 18:49 "Nothing, nothing, they are children of God 18:51 just like we are, you know, 18:53 and they're here for a legitimate reason 18:55 and we're studying the Word of God 18:57 and God loves them just as He loves us." 19:00 So in spite of what they were seeing in mannerisms, 19:03 they recognized us as children of God 19:05 and worthy of, you know, the grace and the gospel. 19:09 But then I'm remembering, you know, 19:11 back when you know many years later 19:13 and you and I were at a conference 19:16 and we were talking to someone about our ministry 19:20 and the comment was made not to us 19:23 but to somebody else that got back to us 19:25 that, "You know, I don't know about those guys, I'm seeing, 19:29 you know, they still have feminine mannerisms 19:30 and I'm thinking that they may still be struggling." 19:33 And how sad because, again, we tend to look at people 19:37 on the outside and we make judgments 19:39 which isn't right, you know. 19:41 And we're trying to assess and to think, you know, 19:44 where people are at whatever in their experience 19:46 and yet we're called as Christians 19:48 to love each other 19:49 and to not make those kind of judgments. 19:51 And so, you know, the word residue again comes up 19:54 that some of those mannerisms, we can't change, 19:57 we're not in charge of that. 19:58 And even if we could that would not be a total sign 20:01 of the healing that comes from within, isn't it? 20:03 Yeah. 20:04 You know, it hangs on me a little bit 20:06 when I hear things like that instantly had made my heart 20:10 sink a bit and I went, "Oh, really, come on." 20:12 Well, where does it take you, Wayne? 20:13 Oh, it takes me back to my childhood... 20:16 That's right. 20:18 It takes me back to the rejection 20:19 to there been beat up, to not fitting the mold, 20:22 and I thought, "Wow, that's really interesting 20:24 that a Christian, a man of God would make this observation." 20:29 And I said to the person who shared this with me, 20:31 I said, "Oh," I said, 20:33 "He needs to come to one of our seminars." 20:35 You know, because it's not necessarily 20:38 the outward appearance that changes 20:40 when someone returns to Jesus, it's not that 20:43 I went under the water gay and I came up straight 20:46 and all masculine and buff and ready to meet the world, 20:50 you know, or that I need to be married off as though 20:54 that were the solution to the problem. 20:56 What we know that many men that are married struggle 20:59 with homosexuality. 21:01 So we know on the outside that's not a cure, right? 21:04 So, Wayne, let's bring it around now. 21:05 What is the cure? 21:08 Well, again, the cure comes through Jesus Christ. 21:11 Amen, that's right. And, you know, it's not... 21:15 The behaviors, you know, are things that 21:17 I think people can look at. 21:20 Yeah, if you have a desire and you want to, you know, 21:24 learn to how to go butch it up, you know, 21:26 feel free but don't let... 21:29 If it's not successful, you know, 21:32 to your image, you know, that doesn't mean that 21:34 God loves you any less or that you're not... 21:36 Or that the work isn't being done. 21:38 Absolutely. Right. 21:39 Your genuine relationship in Jesus Christ 21:42 is not so much through the characteristic. 21:45 And I think of the one person 21:47 who has a major testimony 21:53 about this is Sy Rogers, you know. 21:55 And he's really great at about joking about his femininity 21:59 and helping people see that the genuineness 22:01 of Jesus Christ flows through him 22:04 not necessarily through some characteristic 22:06 that's supposed to be reshaped. 22:07 Right. 22:08 I love to tell that story 22:10 and I'll tell people who have never seen him. 22:12 Sy Rogers is a person who actually was 22:14 about to have a sex change. 22:15 He lived as a woman for a couple of years. 22:17 And just before he was about... 22:20 I think he was just a few months 22:22 from having a sex change, 22:23 he'd given his heart to the Lord, dressed as a woman 22:26 and the Lord still saw his potential, 22:28 He saved him and redeemed him. 22:30 And so he said, "Lord, 22:31 I give you permission to work in my life. 22:32 If you don't want me to have a sex change, 22:34 let me know." 22:35 And two days, two weeks later 22:38 his whole program was shut down. 22:39 They were no longer doing the sex change operations 22:41 at his hospital and he said, 22:43 "Wow, the Lord shut down the whole program just for me," 22:45 but his mannerisms still were incredibly feminine 22:49 from living that way for so long. 22:51 And then after he's been in ministry 22:53 and he's been in ministry for 20 some years, 22:55 married with a daughter 22:57 and I think he's a grandfather now. 22:58 But people will actually come up to him 23:00 and they look at him and they go, 23:02 "You're the example of a redeemed homosexual?" 23:04 He goes, "Yes." 23:06 And they go, "Well, why aren't you more butch?" 23:07 And he goes, "I am," 23:09 which is hysterically funny to me. 23:11 But what that did is that help me to recognize that 23:14 that even as a hairdresser and I know, Wayne, 23:15 that you even love doing floral arrangements 23:18 which to me are probably 23:19 the two most high profile gay occupations 23:23 that you could possibly have, that's right. 23:25 But God gave us those attributes, 23:28 we have that talent 23:29 and that's not to me a definition of femininity. 23:32 It's still a talent of God because Jesus decorated 23:36 the fields with flowers. 23:37 He's the ultimate florist if you ask me. 23:39 And then look He gave our heads, you know, 23:42 He covered our, well, some of our heads with hair. 23:44 And so to me I have to recognize that 23:46 even those attributes they're not defined 23:50 by who I am but I believe that they're still gifts of God, 23:54 and I think that we have to move past 23:56 and outside of those stereotypes 23:58 that we have to recognize that 23:59 everyone no matter what their talents are, 24:02 we're still children of God and that's no indication 24:04 of the work that He's doing within us. 24:06 Yeah, you know, I have a... 24:08 As you know I have a friend that I talk to you about now 24:11 who is a new friend, heterosexual friend 24:14 that is kind of... 24:15 I'm getting the rewiring right 24:17 about this same gendered friendship today. 24:20 And he said something about my talents 24:22 and that I should be, you know, 24:25 very open and out there with my talents 24:27 and live there for people to see, you know, 24:30 my ability to design and do various things. 24:33 And I said, "Well, I don't know 24:34 I kind of play that down a little bit 24:36 because I don't want to be judged, you know." 24:37 And he says, "Oh, come on," you know, he says, 24:40 "I," you know, and he's very masculine 24:42 and he does photography and designs his own sets 24:46 and gets into some creativity and stuff. 24:47 And he says, "I wouldn't let what anybody thinks of you 24:50 stop you. 24:51 You know, you need to find out who you are in Jesus Christ 24:55 and use the gifts that God has given you 24:57 and not let the world, you know, 24:59 bring this oppression on you or try to make you feel bad." 25:02 Beautiful. 25:04 So, Wayne, if you would, what has been the result 25:07 of your personal research on this topic 25:09 and how successful is reparative therapy? 25:13 Well, you know, 25:14 I did look up statistics on this for quite a while 25:18 and found that, I found a study, 25:22 one of the major studies that was done 25:25 showed that 35% of the people 25:30 before going into reparative therapy had tried suicide, 25:35 and then I think it was 20 some percent 25:39 during the therapy that tried to commit suicide. 25:44 And again, the number elevated again 25:47 after the therapy. 25:49 And so that said to me that 25:51 the therapy wasn't too terribly successful 25:53 and that the focus was probably again in the wrong place. 25:56 Instead of being on behavior, 25:59 the focus should really be on Jesus Christ 26:01 because Jesus loves you, 26:03 Jesus is going to reaffirm your importance to Him 26:05 regardless of your masculine or feminine characteristics. 26:10 And so I don't... 26:12 I'm not a big proponent of reparative therapy today 26:16 and I feel really bad for a lot of people 26:18 who have a bad picture of Christianity 26:23 because of reparative therapy and think that 26:25 that we want people to fit a certain mold 26:28 and so it's given a bad name, you know, to Christianity. 26:31 A lot of gay people will associate 26:33 reparative therapy with Christianity 26:36 even if it's not had administered from a Christian. 26:40 So the synopsis or the result 26:45 actually that I have come up with is that 26:47 Jesus is my reparative therapist 26:50 and I believe that the healing 26:51 that's taking place through Him 26:53 is more complete than what it would be 26:55 if I went into secular psychology therapy. 26:59 I agree. 27:00 You know, having worked in the psych department 27:03 at a hospital for over 10 years, 27:05 you know, I saw this revolving door of how, 27:08 you know, many of the therapies that they weren't complete 27:11 or weren't totally successful I believe 27:14 we're missing that component of what Jesus can restore 27:17 and redeem in our lives. 27:19 I know that when I accepted Jesus as my Savior, 27:21 I never chose to be straight. 27:23 I just chose Jesus Christ, that's all I could do. 27:26 I couldn't change my attractions, 27:28 I didn't even want to 27:29 but as I walk legitimately with Jesus, 27:31 He started to address it, He started to work on it 27:34 and He's given me that freedom now 27:36 that I never even thought was possible. 27:38 So, Wayne, thank you for sharing your thoughts 27:42 about reparative therapy and a lot of the information. 27:45 We hope that you've enjoyed our program today 27:47 here on Pure Choices. 27:48 And we invite you to come back to hear more of 27:50 Coming Out Ministries in the future. |
Revised 2017-09-26