Participants: Mike Carducci (Host), Ron Woolsey, Wayne Blakely
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000036
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:41 Hi, I'm Mike Carducci with Coming Out Ministries, 00:44 your host today on Pure Choices. 00:46 I have with me my fellow colleagues 00:48 Ron Woolsey who is a pastor in Arkansas 00:50 and Wayne Blakely who resides in Washington State. 00:53 I'm from Tennessee 00:54 and together we have Coming Out Ministries. 00:56 And what we have gone through is our lifestyle 00:59 of misunderstanding of our own gender 01:03 and it led us into the homosexual lifestyle. 01:06 And God reached on and plucked us 01:08 out of that lifestyle. 01:09 And He did it in such a profound way, 01:12 basically, without 01:14 the influence of the Christian community 01:17 that we had left many years ago. 01:18 All three of us were raised in Christian churches. 01:21 We are raised in Christian education 01:24 and because of our history 01:27 there were no resources that were available. 01:29 No way for people to recognize what was going on, 01:33 the hurt that we were experiencing. 01:35 And so if you would we were almost like-- 01:39 we were kind of like shuffled under the rug if you would 01:41 or actually out the door. 01:43 So as we have had these experiences 01:46 we just want to explore a little bit. 01:47 Our program today 01:49 is Church Culture and Homosexuality. 01:51 Welcome to our program. 01:52 Thank you. 01:54 So first question that I have for you guys, 01:56 "how are you treated by a Christian culture?" 01:58 And if you would-- let's talk a little bit 02:00 about the history when you were a child. 02:03 Well, you know, it's interesting that 02:06 in Christian culture we think that 02:08 a lot of things don't happen that would ordinarily happen 02:10 out there in the world. 02:12 But the fact of the matter is, is that it's happening 02:15 we're just weren't talking about it. 02:17 And so in my near to, to early teen 02:23 I actually had two guys that were friends of mine 02:29 through my parents friends 02:31 who introduced me actually to sex. 02:34 They were heterosexual men, you know, 02:37 as I look back on it now they weren't having-- 02:38 Are we talking about men or boys? 02:40 Boys. Yeah. Okay, all right. 02:41 They weren't having the issues in identifying 02:44 with their gender like I was. 02:46 But it was an affirmation to me 02:48 as they introduced me into masturbation, 02:52 they introduced me into getting together 02:54 every time we would go camping. 02:56 We would look forward to this time together. 02:58 We would sleep together. 03:00 This went on for about two years 03:03 before they began to identify with the opposite sex. 03:07 And when they started saying, "Oh, I have a girlfriend now" 03:10 I was going, "Oh, what happened, you know." 03:12 I thought for a while there that I was normal. 03:15 But let's establish something 03:17 that while you are also participating in sex 03:20 outside of what God had ordained, 03:22 they were also 03:24 not only experiencing the homosexual act, 03:27 but even when they got girlfriends 03:28 they were experiencing sex with them as well 03:30 and they weren't married. 03:32 Is that what you're saying? I don't know. 03:33 I actually don't know that, that was taking place 03:36 but, I know that what was happening 03:39 in my life and in our exploration 03:42 is something that happens in many young men's life today 03:46 that we don't talk about. 03:47 And we're just starting to come about as you-- 03:50 as deans find out about this at our academies 03:54 that are boarding academies. 03:56 You know, it maybe even happening 03:58 in our church environment. 03:59 And the fact of the matter is that 04:01 today now we are redeemed, 04:03 we've been returned back to Jesus Christ 04:05 and while the church didn't approach 04:08 and talk about this issue, 04:09 now they're beginning to realize 04:11 in our return the danger 04:15 and having left that under the church pew. 04:18 Wow. Ron, what was your experience? 04:20 Well, I would probably say-- preface my experience 04:23 by going back to the fact 04:25 that I was molested at the age of four 04:27 which left me in a vulnerable state 04:31 so that I believed that once a person is victimized, 04:35 he is easily or she is easily victimized again. 04:40 It sets us in a path, 04:42 a vulnerable path of victimization. 04:44 And so when I was in grade school, 04:47 I had a friend who was an older student 04:51 who happened to be the pastor's son. 04:54 Excuse me. 04:55 And we were in a singing group and on weekends 04:58 because I lived across the State Line in Mississippi 05:02 and the school was in Tennessee. 05:04 And I would spend the weekends at the pastor's home 05:08 with my friend because we had singing gigs on the weekend. 05:12 And I was repeatedly sexually victimized 05:17 in the pastor's home by the son while just the two of us there. 05:22 And I was very vulnerable. 05:25 I didn't know how to say no. I didn't know how to stop it. 05:27 I would just freeze and just let it happen 05:29 and get over with and what-have-you 05:31 but there are other-- 05:32 just a couple of other instances 05:34 that I would like to bring out 05:36 as examples that our church, 05:39 the Christian Church needs to be aware of. 05:42 Summer camp, we would have a group of boys 05:47 staying in a cabin together 05:49 and the counselor did not sleep in the same cabin 05:52 and so at night the boys are left alone. 05:55 To their experimentation, their curiosity 06:00 and some of the boys were very experienced already 06:04 and this was a shock to me, the whole idea of masturbation 06:08 had never even come into my mind 06:10 until I was at summer camp 06:12 and this was going on. 06:14 I didn't participate 06:15 but I was introduced to the concept 06:17 and it was very shocking. And in one-- 06:19 For one second, Ron, what I'd like to point out 06:21 is that we're all over 50 years old. 06:25 We're not talking about situations 06:26 that have happened within the last couple years, 06:28 we're talking about things 30, 40 years ago 06:32 that has happened in our denomination 06:34 and I believe that there's still 06:35 so much darkness about this 06:37 that, you know, I can only imagine, 06:39 you know, the depth of what's going on 06:41 even in our own Christian culture. 06:43 So let me let you continue on that. 06:45 My children refer to that as the olden days, 06:46 by the way. 06:48 They constantly reminding me how old I am, 06:50 but also, one other instant 06:53 when or example, in the boy's dorm in academy, 06:58 the shower in the boy's dorm 07:01 was one big open shower room where everyone showered. 07:06 I mean, anyone showered. It was open, you were exposed. 07:09 This was a really bad situation for someone like me 07:15 who was confused already and struggling in my mind 07:18 to daily be showering with other guys, 07:22 you know, that our jocks 07:23 or very attractive and all of that 07:26 and the games that go on in the showers 07:28 and the playing around and messing around-- 07:30 So it added to the confusion? Right. Yes. 07:32 And so these are things that were happening 07:34 within the realm of church. 07:37 Church academy, church camp, the pastor's home. 07:41 And we just need to really realize 07:45 that this is not something 07:46 that, that we are protected from within our church. 07:52 I mean, this is, this goes on behind the scenes 07:55 within our church culture. 07:57 In my own experience, I remember feeling inadequate. 08:01 I was a small kid. 08:02 I grew two inches at a high school 08:04 so I'm still 5'5" which isn't much. 08:06 Still growing. Right. Right. 08:08 But I remember I went to this one school, 08:10 it was a public school. 08:11 And they had a built-in swimming pool, 08:13 an Olympic-size pool 08:14 and so every other weekend in the winter time 08:16 we would go swimming. 08:17 Only the boys would swim 08:19 from seventh, eighth and ninth grade 08:21 they swam naked for that week. 08:23 It's shocking when I think about what we endured 08:26 because I remember bringing my bathing suit 08:28 and I remember being taunted 08:30 because I brought my bathing suit. 08:31 I hadn't even reach puberty yet when we started this. 08:34 And so here I am surrounded by other guys, 08:37 they were more developed than me, 08:39 feeling incredibly insecure 08:40 and then the only way that I could find acceptance 08:42 was to take my bathing suit off. 08:44 We did jumping jacks by the side at the pool 08:47 and we paired up with another kid 08:49 to do our sit ups. 08:50 Incredibly humiliating and in my opinion, 08:54 inappropriate for children to do. 08:56 Wrong signals. Right. 08:57 So then in high school my junior senior year 08:59 I went to a academy, the summer before that 09:01 at, you know, Christian summer camp 09:04 there was a kid who had some juvenile detention issues 09:07 and he picked up on me right away. 09:09 I didn't choose him as a friend, 09:10 he just kind of showed up 09:12 and I remember we were in the pool 09:14 there at summer camp 09:15 and he swam underneath the water 09:16 and he grabbed me in my groin. 09:19 I remember just, you know, it wasn't what I wanted. 09:22 I knew it wasn't right, 09:23 you know, and I told him don't do that again. 09:25 And so he was the only person I knew. 09:27 I started off an academy with him my junior year 09:30 and again, he was experience in homosexual activity. 09:33 He saw something in me 09:35 and before, probably we'd been there a month, 09:37 I had engaged in homosexual sex with him. 09:41 What was so shocking to me 09:43 was that when I went to bed that night 09:44 I was crying. 09:46 I knew, I knew that, that I given into something 09:49 that God said was not right. 09:50 The worst part about my anguish that night 09:53 was to know that, that it actually affirm something, 09:56 it felt good. 09:57 And so I can see 09:59 how being exposed to homosexual activity 10:01 at a very young age, 10:02 it does such a mind game with you 10:04 and it causes such great confusion. 10:06 However, it still felt good and it confirmed something else 10:10 which I think makes us vulnerable 10:12 for that kind of abuse again. 10:13 Well, we need to just understand 10:15 that sin is attractive or no one would do it. 10:19 So we're talking about a perversion here 10:22 but of course, it is something that is attractive 10:25 or we would not be here. 10:28 And we wouldn't have these testimonies. 10:29 But even in your situation, Ron, 10:31 as a child that wasn't even sexual 10:33 to be introduced to it at four years old, 10:35 not only did it open up that issue of sexuality 10:40 but it even identified and educated you that way 10:43 and influenced your wiring. 10:45 So I want to move on. 10:46 How did the church ministered to you as a young adult? 10:51 And I can see, Wayne, 10:53 you're already filled with emotion. 10:56 What was that like for you? 10:58 It didn't minister to me. 11:01 There was nobody addressing this. 11:04 I was finding that while the, the sexualness 11:11 that was taking place was laying a foundation. 11:15 And I began to read in my Bible 11:18 and see that various texts were pointing out 11:21 who I was beginning to associate with 11:22 and I thought well, I didn't choose this. 11:25 And God's calling these people sinners 11:27 and that being wrong behavior, why is this happening to me 11:31 when I haven't really chosen it. 11:34 And so there was nothing coming from our school system, 11:37 there was no nothing coming from our church system 11:40 and when I was late teen, 11:44 I had already kind of slipped away 11:47 and had come back to the church 11:49 to talk about reengaging with the church 11:51 and mention to the pastor what my sin was 11:55 and he just said to me, "You need to stop." 12:00 You need stop sinning. 12:02 Wow, great advice. Right. 12:04 I was like well, can you expound upon that. 12:08 I mean, what do you mean? 12:09 You know, this is who I am inside, 12:11 what do I do with who I am? 12:13 You know, there was no understanding 12:14 about this problem. 12:15 And, Ron, for you as a young adult? 12:17 As a young adult? 12:20 As a young adult, 12:21 in my situation it is a bit different 12:23 because I was so private about my confusion 12:28 and though I was-- 12:29 Was your privacy 12:31 do you think that, that was really covering up shame 12:33 that you or maybe even that you didn't feel safe 12:37 to share what was going on? 12:38 Yes. Okay. 12:40 And when I was teased and mocked 12:43 it was not-- I was even call sissy 12:45 because of being musical 12:47 and playing the piano and so forth. 12:49 But it was more of just bullying 12:52 than really accusing me of being gay. 12:54 No one had any idea 12:55 what I was struggling with in my mind. 12:58 And I grew up, even with all of my confusion, 13:00 I was a very spiritual young person. 13:03 I was always involved in church activities. 13:06 I was a church, in Sabbath school pianist 13:09 when I was very young 13:11 and very involved in all of these things. 13:13 And so there was no-- I would say in my case, 13:17 there was no ministering to me because no one knew 13:22 and we'll talk about that a little bit later, 13:24 but the ministering that I received 13:26 was just general ministry 13:28 about growing up in the church culture. 13:31 I know that I wanted Jesus in my heart 13:34 I wanted deliverance from the feelings 13:36 that, that I was experiencing. 13:39 I know that as a young adult person 13:41 I did the behavior modification thing. 13:44 I got a girlfriend, you know, I looked apart, you know, 13:48 I am sure that I had mannerisms that people were picking up on 13:51 but I had a good cover. 13:53 And so I remember being 17 years old 13:55 praying that God would take my life. 13:57 I was doing behavioral things like not watching TV, 14:00 I was a vegetarian 14:02 and, you know, all these outward things 14:04 that would look like I was spiritual 14:06 but I was still struggling 14:07 with fantasy and masturbation inside 14:10 and I prayed that God would take my life. 14:12 And because He didn't take my life at 17, 14:14 I knew what was coming. 14:15 I need a boy who gotten hit in the face with a pie 14:18 because of gay activists, 14:20 the riots at Stonewall were happening. 14:23 I saw homosexuality coming to the forefront. 14:26 I didn't want it. 14:27 But I knew I was going towards that. 14:30 And even when I came into the gay life, 14:32 being in the gay pride parades and marching on Washington 14:35 when President Clinton was inaugurated, 14:38 I remember looking at the Christians 14:39 on the side of the road 14:41 holding up their signs that said 14:42 "God hates homosexuals" and "Burn in hell" 14:46 and I thought to myself, 14:48 wow, here I was in a community 14:50 of homosexuals, with friends of mine 14:52 and I thought this is who my family is 14:55 and I remember thinking 14:56 how sad that I was once connected 14:58 to those type of people. 15:00 Even though they only represented 15:01 a very small percentage of Christian community, 15:04 the sad thing was 15:06 that was the only voice I was hearing. 15:07 I wasn't hearing about redemption for homosexuals. 15:10 All I was hearing about was the damnation 15:12 and the-- and the judgment. 15:15 And so what changed that for you? 15:17 What I want to talk about now 15:19 is how was it that God was able to reach you? 15:25 Well, you know, 15:27 God will intervene thankfully. 15:30 You know, God intervenes in our lives. 15:32 You know, when the church hasn't been successful 15:34 at reaching out, you know, God is taking somebody 15:38 who was in the gutter and has brought them back 15:41 and said, "You know what, 15:43 I'll lift you up into high places." 15:46 If your mind is on focus on me 15:50 and the healing that I am giving you 15:52 I'm providing you, 15:53 God is taking and doing something 15:57 that I never dreamed possible. 15:59 But if God reached me through, 16:01 through this divine intervention, 16:02 you know, He was through the process of elimination. 16:05 All the distractions of the world 16:06 finally came to an end with the dying of all of my friends 16:11 and I recognize that none of them were alive 16:13 and I sat there and I contemplated-- 16:15 Why were they not alive, Wayne? 16:16 Due to AIDS. Okay. 16:18 And I had 16:22 just the same reason as to as them, 16:26 I should not have been alive. That's right. 16:27 I should not have been alive. 16:29 I've engaged in more sexual activity in my life 16:33 than anybody I know, you know. 16:36 Wait, Ron, for the record 16:38 what was your occupation also, during this time? 16:41 I was a male prostitute. Thank you. 16:44 Ron, would you fill us in quickly if you could about 16:47 where you were at when Jesus found you? 16:48 Okay. 16:50 First of all, I mean-- like you were talking about 16:51 the behavior modification, I did all of those things. 16:53 I graduated from college with a degree in theology. 16:56 I'm married. I had children. 16:58 I made all those good choices and still went into the world. 17:02 Yeah. 17:04 But it was through divine intervention. 17:06 The Lord reached out to me, 17:08 specifically through recurring nightmare 17:10 of living through the coming of Jesus as a lost person 17:13 and I didn't know where to go 17:14 when I was wanting to come out of it for help because 17:18 everyone thought I could not be changed. 17:20 So I ended up just going to the Word. 17:22 I went to my knees, I went to the Word of God 17:24 and the Lord and I worked this out together 17:27 and I think that's why all three of us 17:28 have such a powerful presentation here is because 17:32 we dug for our answers. 17:35 We didn't go through therapy. We went to God 17:40 and God gave us the answers through His Word. 17:42 Yeah, I think you'd agree with me but God came to me, 17:46 I wasn't looking for it. 17:48 I believe that that like both of you, 17:50 you had parents that we're praying for you, 17:52 I had sisters they were praying for me 17:53 and when that time was right 17:55 God knew that He was bringing it around again 17:57 and He plucked me out of that. 17:59 He was pursuing me long before I pursued Him. 18:01 But we went to Him for the answers. 18:02 That's right. 18:04 He drew us to the point 18:05 where we decided we need answers. 18:07 We find them in the Word of God 18:09 and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 18:10 Thank you. 18:12 So for me, when I came, 18:13 when I got baptized into the church culture again, 18:16 I basically assumed the things were the same way 18:19 that they were when I left church when I was 20. 18:21 So now I'm 40-years-old, I'm back in church culture 18:24 in the same denomination 18:26 and I was very closeted even about my coming forth because 18:30 again I didn't think I could change 18:31 and I basically understood, you know, 18:34 the biblical understanding of homosexuality. 18:36 So while I still had a boyfriend 18:37 and a sexual addiction, you know, my shame kept me 18:41 going to church and then running home. 18:43 But what happened is God was still reaching out 18:44 and He's still brought into on my understanding. 18:48 I could glean something from a sermon 18:49 or from something that I was reading 18:52 where I started to see that He had more in store for me 18:54 than I did for myself. 18:55 Well, I didn't choose to be straight, 18:57 I just chose Christ 18:58 and He brought me on this journey 18:59 into more understanding. 19:01 So the church again, 19:03 wasn't able to minister to my need. 19:05 They didn't recognize what I was going through 19:07 and they didn't even have a cure. 19:10 One of the things that we say in our ministry 19:12 is quit telling me what I'm doing is wrong 19:14 and show me that there's a way out. 19:16 And so what I want to establish now very quickly 19:18 because our time is running short 19:19 and we have so much to cover. 19:21 Wayne, quickly what was church culture like for you 19:24 when you first came in? 19:26 Well, it was the expectation that you would be baptized 19:30 going to the water gay and come up straight. 19:33 I thought-- 19:34 How did that work for you, Wayne? 19:35 It didn't work out real well. 19:37 Excuse me. 19:39 There was this expectation there, you know, 19:41 since God had done the work, right, 19:43 God done the intervention. 19:44 The church was kind of like, we didn't have to do this. 19:47 And so they weren't ready for me. 19:50 They weren't ready for the fact that God was gonna turn around 19:52 and use me to begin to show ways 19:55 that God can reach out to people 19:57 who are same-sex attracted. 19:59 There's no resources, there are no, 20:01 there's nobody there that has the experience to know 20:04 what the walk is coming back to Jesus Christ. 20:07 Wayne, one of the things that I've heard you say 20:09 as we've talked before 20:11 is there was actually a church official that said, 20:13 "I know you've got a really great story 20:15 but can't you just keep it to yourself?" 20:17 Yeah. Is that right? 20:18 Yes, he thanked me for my courage to be able to share 20:22 what was on my heart but he said, you know, 20:26 while you have this going on in your life, you know, 20:28 do you really have to talk about it? 20:31 And, you know, of course, I picked up 20:32 my jaw off the ground I said, you know, 20:35 "This is exactly why we are in the predicament 20:39 we're in because if we don't talk about this, 20:42 we don't help another child in the church, 20:46 a young teen, a young adult. 20:49 They're gonna keep this inside, 20:50 they are gonna keep this bottled inside, 20:51 but they're gonna bolt at some point because 20:54 the church isn't providing them 20:56 with the, what they need to come back 20:59 and engage in with Jesus. 21:02 Right. 21:03 So, Ron, Wayne and I, one of issues 21:05 that we have is this high sensitivity. 21:08 You know, we find offense easily because 21:11 up all the offense that we've incurred along our young life. 21:13 But it seems that your experience 21:15 come back into the church very quickly, 21:17 you were able to bulldoze through some of that. 21:19 Yeah, it was different. Okay. 21:22 You know, when I came back into the church, 21:24 they were not there to assist me. 21:26 I came in with so much zeal and so much excitement 21:30 because of the answers that I had found for myself 21:33 even before I was baptized 21:35 it was like the church was more in awe rather than to help, 21:39 they had me teaching. 21:40 But before I was baptized I was teaching Sabbath school, 21:43 they didn't know I had not been baptized 21:44 because I was visiting a church participating so much, 21:47 they assumed that I was an active church member 21:50 and I had not even been baptized. 21:52 Is it possible that the moving of the Holy Spirit 21:54 allow that circumstance? 21:56 Yes. Yes, absolutely. 21:59 I think the Lord, because of the way 22:01 He brought me in through divine intervention, 22:03 He realized I had something to offer 22:05 and I really believe that that's what strengthens us 22:09 is that we get involved, 22:10 and we help others to overcome sin, 22:12 we share what the Lord has done in our lives 22:14 and the church sits-- not sits back but I mean, 22:17 they are receptive 22:19 if they are not equipped to help 22:21 they were open to hear. 22:23 And I think that was very important for me 22:25 to find a receptive. 22:26 They received me with open arms 22:29 but they didn't know what to do to help, 22:32 so I end up helping them. 22:33 So, Ron, that's a perfect point 22:35 because that's where I want to go with this. 22:37 You know, God was already moving in your life 22:39 and He brought you an opportunity 22:40 to experience more restoration by getting you busy. 22:43 And so what I want to ask now 22:45 for me coming back into the church, 22:47 I've actually been involved in a church 22:48 that knew what my history was 22:50 and I had an elder doctor who was on the board 22:54 as I was a Sabbath school superintendent, 22:56 as I was asking for men's ministry 22:58 look down his nose at me and say 23:00 "I don't want to be running around in the woods 23:02 like a bunch a gay men." 23:03 And I knew that that was pointed at me specifically. 23:06 That was incredibly crushing 23:07 not only to my spirit as a fellow Christian 23:10 and a member of this body, I totally felt isolated again. 23:14 All of the history of rejection came back again 23:17 but it forced me on my knees to reconcile with God 23:20 that I was serving Him and not the church. 23:22 And that as I, as I followed Christ 23:25 He restored forgiveness for this, 23:27 this doctor that was on the board 23:28 and also gave me a purpose 23:30 and I recognize that that purpose came from Him. 23:32 What would have made the biggest difference, 23:36 very quickly if you would, 23:38 when you were coming back 23:39 that would have made a huge difference in your recovery, 23:42 Wayne? 23:43 Communication showing that we love you, 23:47 we are God's children, we're as His family, 23:50 we want to embrace you, 23:51 we want you to know that we are all level at the, 23:54 at the foot of cross. 23:55 Amen. And, Ron? 23:57 I believe that had the church been at least 24:00 talking about the issue, 24:03 people like us would have known, at least 24:05 the church is interested, they're trying. 24:08 They didn't even have to have all of the answers. 24:10 If the church had just been open to talking about it, 24:14 researching it, being willing to find answers if so 24:18 but see, we didn't know anyone even talking about it. 24:21 There is just this silence on the issue. 24:25 What's incredible is Wayne said yesterday 24:28 that you can't give what you don't have 24:31 and how sad because what happen is we've met with resistance 24:35 even when we came back into church culture because 24:39 Jesus was working on our hearts bringing us back in. 24:41 But then we come in 24:43 and then we're feeling the resistance again 24:44 and Jesus has to push past what should be the agents 24:48 that are cooperating with Him 24:49 which should have been God with skin on if you would 24:52 to reach out and pull us in 24:54 and instead what happens is 24:55 as we come back in to church culture, 24:57 we're feeling this resistance, 24:58 this tide if you would to go against us 25:00 which basically pushed us back into Christ arms. 25:03 But for someone now who's watching out there, 25:05 they're maybe struggling with the same things that we are 25:08 or maybe be entering back into church culture, 25:10 whether they struggle with homosexuality or adultery 25:13 or whatever sin is out there. 25:15 What would you say, 25:18 would make the biggest difference 25:19 for their church culture 25:20 to bring around this attitude of love and acceptance 25:25 and what did you say, Wayne, 25:26 it kind of level the playing ground at the cross 25:29 that we all recognize that we're sinners 25:31 and that we have needs? 25:32 Yeah, begin to look to ministries on this issue. 25:37 You know, Coming Out Ministries 25:38 is one of those ministries where we are a resource now 25:42 where there have been no resources. 25:44 Now we are able to go out, 25:46 we are able to speak in churches 25:48 and colleges and schools and-- 25:49 Wayne, what's that scripture in Revelation 25:52 that ties into that? 25:53 Come on say. Revelation 12:11. 25:55 That's right. Say it. 25:57 They overcame-- 25:59 "They overcame him by the word of their testimony." 26:00 And? 26:02 "And the blood of the Lamb of Jesus Christ." 26:03 That's right. That's right. 26:04 And so, Ron, what would your advice be? 26:07 To what equip the church? Yes. 26:10 What would make a difference for somebody 26:12 coming into church culture 26:14 instead of getting the resistance 26:15 from the church itself but to receive them in, 26:18 what would you say would be 26:20 something that the church itself 26:21 could focus on to make that transition easier? 26:24 Well, again, I just say that the church needs to be open 26:27 to deal with a sinner with whatever issue he has. 26:31 We need to not exclude any sinner 26:34 because it's something that we feel squeamish about. 26:36 Yes. Yes. 26:38 Because every one of us finds in someone else 26:40 a repulsive sin. 26:43 My sin is not repulsive to me but yours maybe 26:47 and the church needs to be a place 26:48 where we don't push anyone away because of repulsion. 26:52 We need to get above that, get over that 26:56 and accept that the church is like a hospital 26:58 and you bring in people of all levels of spiritual need 27:01 and spiritual growth and work together 27:04 for the betterment of the Christian community. 27:06 So, Ron, how perfect because what that does say to me 27:09 is at we don't have to focus on particular sense 27:12 and we don't have to necessarily have classes 27:14 just for redeeming homosexuals 27:16 or just for redeeming prostitutes 27:18 or just redeeming gossipers 27:20 whether they're in the church or not. 27:21 But what we do is as we recognize that 27:24 we're all on the same playing field 27:25 that that we're all sinners 27:26 then what that automatically does, 27:28 is that starts to create this need 27:31 to be filled with the Holy Spirit 27:33 and allow the Lord to lead us and to love every human being 27:37 no matter what background that they're from. 27:39 So, Wayne and Ron, from Coming Out Ministries 27:42 along with myself on a thank you guys, 27:44 for this incredible conversation that we've had 27:47 and we invite you to come back 27:48 and enjoy more programs with Pure Choices 27:51 and thanks again for coming. |
Revised 2016-02-25