Participants: Wayne Blakely (Host), Ron Woolsey
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000037
|
00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:41 I'm Wayne Blakely from Coming Out Ministries, 00:44 your host today on Pure Choices. 00:47 Today, I have with me Ron Woolsey 00:49 who is a colleague of mine in this ministry. 00:52 And today, Ron, we're gonna talk about 00:55 what is happening globally across our world 00:59 with the normalization of homosexuality. 01:02 It seems that today that in the headlines, 01:06 almost every day, is something that is saying 01:09 something about accepting homosexuals, 01:12 accepting the gay lifestyle, as being just as normal 01:16 as we would view heterosexuals. 01:19 And so it's interesting that this is beginning to become 01:25 much more prevalent 01:26 than it has been in the past where we look-- 01:30 where as a nation we've looked at things 01:32 a little more from a Christian standpoint 01:34 it seems that that's disappearing. 01:37 And so as I'd like to remind our viewers today 01:40 that we want to look at this from the Word of God 01:43 and to see what's God's view 01:46 of the homosexual and homosexuality. 01:49 So, Ron, how is it that God expresses His feelings 01:53 towards the homosexual? 01:55 And, Wayne, this is such an important question 01:57 because what we do just to reiterate, 01:59 what we do here so much in the news, in the media, 02:04 in society is how-- how we feel, 02:09 how the homosexual feels, 02:10 about how society feels and so forth. 02:12 And we've talked about this a number of times 02:16 that what seems to be left out of the equation 02:19 is how does God feel? 02:21 And so it's very important for us as Christians 02:24 and having come out of that lifestyle ourselves 02:27 to look at how God feels about the issue. 02:31 And so in order to do that is there something 02:33 that we can reference from God's Word, 02:35 are there texts that actually deal with this topic? 02:37 Yes, exactly and that's why I would say 02:40 why don't we let God speak for Himself. 02:41 You know, we can talk about how He feels 02:44 but it's so much better to just say 02:47 "God, You show us how You feel." 02:48 And so, you know, I've compiled a few 02:51 just a sample texts and scripture 02:53 that show us how God feels-- 02:55 Give me one. About, just one? 02:58 No, we've got several here 03:00 but yeah, the first one, 1 John 4:8 03:03 and it might be surprising to know that 03:06 this is an expression of how God feels 03:08 towards the homosexual. 03:10 But 1 John 4:8 God is telling us that He is love. 03:14 God is love or how does that reveal 03:19 His feeling toward the homosexual. 03:21 Well, if we go to Romans 5:8 03:25 Paul says "But God commendeth his love toward us, 03:29 in that, while we were yet sinners." 03:31 That includes homosexual. Right. 03:33 While we were yet sinners, homosexual sinners 03:37 "Christ died for us." 03:39 So that shows us another text, 03:41 it shows us how God feels towards the homosexual. 03:45 He was willing to die for us even before we accept Him. 03:48 And of course, the text that everyone knows 03:51 and loves John 3:16 03:54 "For God so loved the world, 03:56 that He gave his only begotten Son, 03:58 that whosoever believeth in Him 04:00 should not perish, but have everlasting life." 04:03 You know, it's kind of, I think it might be important 04:04 also to indicate here too that 04:07 if you have same sex attraction or you have temptations 04:12 that you differentiate between that and behavior 04:16 and so if we're looking at a little bit about 04:19 how does God feel about homosexual behavior, 04:22 well, we're looking at that during our discussion today 04:25 but that if you are just experiencing temptation 04:28 that you wouldn't necessarily identify as a homosexual, 04:32 that you would identify as a sinner 04:36 tainted with temptations. 04:38 But that as long as you're not carrying out the behavior, 04:41 you're not an active homosexual. 04:44 That's true and God has so many expressions 04:48 of how He feels 04:50 towards the person who is struggling. 04:51 But even-- 04:53 And identifying at first as homosexual temptation 04:58 and then looking at this that let's go into looking it 05:01 as acknowledging homosexual behavior as sin 05:04 now what does God have to say to that sinner 05:08 and that's where your versus are so important. 05:10 Right. 05:12 First of all, I mean, in another reference, 05:15 He is reaching out 05:16 and for example, in Proverbs 23:26, 05:20 He says "My son" so He is reaching out 05:24 to the sinner referring to him as His son. 05:28 I think that such an endearing term 05:30 and this, Wayne, what I think is so important to paint 05:35 about God and to reveal that His love towards us 05:39 even when we were in rebellion, it's still there 05:43 even before we're just saying we're struggling 05:46 and even wanting a way out. 05:47 Even while were in rebellion He says 05:49 "My son, give me thine heart, 05:52 and let thine eyes observe my ways." 05:54 Listen and learn, watch and learn, 05:58 follow My example, a father trying to teach his children. 06:01 And, you know, parents have wayward children 06:04 and as a father myself, 06:08 many times I'm trying to get my children 06:10 to just pay attention. 06:12 Listen and learn from my experience, 06:15 learn from my study and so forth. 06:18 Another good example is with Mary. 06:20 Now Mary was guilty of the same type of sin, 06:23 the violation of the seventh commandment, 06:25 adultery and Jesus said to her 06:28 "Neither do I condemn thee." 06:30 So here she was actively a sinner 06:35 and Jesus says, I don't condemn you, Mary. 06:37 That's so important for us to know Wayne. 06:39 He's not condemning 06:41 but then He says, "Go and sin no more." 06:43 You know, but I would like to make a comment about 06:45 that I use in my presentation today called Engaged. 06:51 God gave me this about that story on Mary 06:54 and the church might learn something from this too 06:56 is that, you know, God didn't use a clobbered technique 07:00 so we can't just throw the verses out there for people 07:03 to see that God is not putting His approval on homosexuality 07:08 as He didn't put approval on adultery 07:11 or sexual sin. 07:14 But He invited Mary, you know, come share a meal with Me. 07:18 Come have something to drink with Me. 07:19 Come spend the evening with Me. 07:21 And, Mary, please don't go back to those men tonight 07:26 and Mary says, well, but, Jesus, you know, they love me. 07:30 And God lets her go 07:33 and then yet she comes back the next day 07:36 and He says, ah, Mary, so good to see you again. 07:39 You're so beautiful. 07:40 I love you, spend time with Me today 07:42 and they spend another day like the first. 07:45 And through the course of the seven times 07:48 that it took for Mary to come back. 07:51 Jesus is revealing His tender compassionate love 07:54 while He's not condemning her as He tells her, 07:57 "I don't condemn you" 07:58 and asks her go and sin no more. 08:01 And finally she's able to see 08:03 the difference between His pure love 08:06 and what she used to think was love is no longer love. 08:09 She sees it as abuse. Right. 08:11 And in our own experiences, 08:14 and we've shared so we know each other 08:16 and how we have come out this gay life. 08:20 These are the types of things 08:22 that we both had to come to understand 08:25 before we would even deal with the gay issue 08:28 that He loves us, 08:30 we're like a son, yes, maybe a wayward son 08:32 but He still loves us anyway, He doesn't condemn us. 08:36 And then Jeremiah 3:13 08:38 He pleads with us wayward children, 08:41 He pleads because He loves us. 08:43 He says "Only acknowledge thine iniquity." 08:46 Just admit that this is a problem 08:49 "That you've transgressed against the Lord thy God." 08:51 Verse 14, "Turn, O backsliding children," 08:54 He still calling us children. 08:56 "Return ye backsliding children 08:58 and I will heal your backsliding." 09:01 And so, and one more example, the Prodigal Son. 09:06 What a beautiful depiction of how God feels 09:10 towards the homosexual. 09:11 Now, we're not saying this Prodigal Son 09:13 was a homosexual but I was a prodigal son 09:16 and my sin happen to be homosexuality and yours. 09:20 We left-- I left my family, I turned my back on my family 09:24 and my God and my church as a prodigal 09:27 and we read in the story, the Prodigal Son 09:30 there's beautiful love of the father waiting 09:34 and longing to receive the son back into the family. 09:37 And so I think it's important that we see 09:40 how God feels about the homosexual 09:43 is not the way He feels about homosexuality. 09:46 Because the homosexual is a sinner 09:49 in need of salvation and God loves that person. 09:52 That' right. That's right. 09:54 So tell me-- 09:57 you painted a good picture about God's love for any sinner 10:01 regardless what the sin is. 10:03 So let's dive a little bit deeper into this. 10:07 how has God really feel towards homosexuality 10:10 because it seems like we're, we're skirting the issue today 10:13 that we're afraid to speak out 10:15 about what that Word of God truly does say? 10:18 And I think it is so important for us 10:20 to really paint this picture 10:22 of God's feeling towards us personally, before we look at, 10:25 you know, the question. 10:27 Yes, absolute. 10:28 And now we will take that dive 10:30 so we need to fasten the seatbelts 10:32 because it's not a pretty picture. 10:33 Because it's gonna address our feelings. 10:36 Right. And God hates sin. He loves the sinner. 10:41 That's what drew us to Him. Yes. 10:43 But, boy, does He hate the things 10:45 that separate us from Him 10:48 and that destroys and pull us away from Him 10:50 and so, let me just share 10:53 three passages of scripture. Okay. 10:56 That tell us how God feels about the sin of homosexuality. 11:01 This is not how He feels about you and me as sinners, 11:04 but how He feels about the thing 11:06 that is hurting us and hurting Him. 11:09 And this is why-- we should-- 11:10 you know, God has given us this beautiful tool 11:13 His Word to go to and so many of us end up 11:17 making observations rather than going to the lamp 11:21 that God has given us that that is a light to our feet 11:24 and so important that that you as a viewer 11:27 would go to the Word of God 11:29 and let God speak to you through His Word. 11:32 And pray and ask for God's guidance 11:34 and for the presence of the Holy Spirit 11:36 when you do this. 11:37 Now we do have to understand that, 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 11:40 I think is that 11:42 "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God." 11:44 These are His thoughts, His feelings. 11:47 "And it is profitable for doctrine for reprove." 11:51 Well, ouch, that's like a spanking. 11:53 For correction, 11:55 I don't need to be corrected I know everything. 11:57 You know, we see that in children of all ages. 12:00 And instruction in righteousness. 12:02 In other words the Word of God is to shape and mold us 12:06 back into His image. 12:08 So it's very important. 12:09 Now these three texts of scripture 12:11 they're very strong. 12:13 We want to stress here, Wayne, 12:14 that this is how He feels about the behavior 12:17 about the sin, not the person. 12:20 Leviticus 18:22 12:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, 12:24 as with womankind, it is abomination." 12:28 God looks at this sin as abomination. 12:31 Not the abomination but one of many. 12:34 So, Ron, was that just some Levitical law 12:37 that we don't pay, need to pay attention today to? 12:41 No, and I'll share one more Levitical 12:43 and then we'll go to the New Testament 12:45 and we can't say that's Levitical. 12:46 No, we can't. Right. 12:48 But in the Leviticus 20 God reiterates 12:51 and when He repeats Himself to me 12:52 that's like using that yellow highlighter. 12:55 I said at once, we said this to our kids. 12:58 I've said it once I'm going to say it again 13:01 and if you don't get it I'll say it again. 13:03 And so He says again just two chapters later 13:06 in Leviticus 20. 13:07 "If a man also lie with mankind, 13:09 as he lieth with a woman, 13:11 both of them have committed an abomination." 13:14 Again, not the abomination. 13:16 You know, in my book, Wayne, I listed to help me 13:19 I listed all the abominations in the Bible in one paragraph. 13:23 That was so helpful to me, 13:24 to realize that my sin was not the unpardonable sin. 13:29 It was one of many sins, all called abomination 13:32 all of which God can deal with and that was very helpful. 13:35 Now to Romans, the New Testament 13:39 and this is one that is very strong 13:42 but it does reveal how God feels. 13:44 Romans Chapter 1, 13:46 "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness 13:48 through the lusts of their own hearts, 13:51 to dishonor their own bodies between themselves" 13:53 so He's referring to this as dishonoring ourselves. 13:57 That hurts a father to see a child hurt himself. 14:00 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections." 14:04 So now it's referred to as vile. 14:07 "For even their women did change the natural use 14:09 into that which is against nature." 14:12 So it's against nature. 14:14 "And likewise also the men, 14:16 leaving the natural use of the woman, 14:18 burned in their lust one toward another," 14:21 so then we read on 14:23 "men with men working that which is unseemly, 14:27 receiving in themselves that recompense 14:30 of their error which was meet. 14:31 And even as they did not like 14:33 to retain God in their knowledge, 14:34 they are putting themselves ahead of God here. 14:38 "God gave them over to a reprobate mind," 14:40 so he is referring to this 14:42 as being reprobate or reprobate mind 14:45 "to do those things which are not convenient, 14:47 being filled with all unrighteousness." 14:49 So now He goes through a list of how He looks at this. 14:52 "Unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness," 14:57 is desiring that which is not for ourselves, 15:00 coveting something that is forbidding. 15:03 "Maliciousness" and then a whole list of other things 15:06 and skipping down a little further 15:07 in chapter 1 of Romans, 15:09 "Who knowing the judgment of God, 15:13 that they which commit such things are worthy of death, 15:16 not only do the same, 15:18 but have pleasure in them that do them." 15:20 So they know the wages of sin is death, 15:23 they know this, that people talked about here 15:26 that are caught up in this lifestyle, 15:29 they know the wages of sin is death 15:32 but they do it anyway. 15:33 Right. You're meaning that sin-- 15:34 in that sin you've indicated pleasure 15:36 that shows us again that's, that is driven by feeling. 15:39 So our feelings are gonna be a deceptive tool 15:41 and helping us to make us think that it's all okay with God. 15:45 And God doesn't want us to be controlled 15:48 and directed by our feelings 15:50 because they're fickle, aren't they, Wayne? 15:51 Oh, yeah, absolutely. 15:52 I mean, from one day to the next, 15:54 From one minute to the next sometimes. 15:56 We may be up, we may be down, 15:57 we may be all around and God is rock solid. 16:01 Don't go by your feelings. 16:03 I'm giving you something to hang onto 16:05 so that your life can be steady and straight. 16:08 Oh, did I say that? 16:09 Oh, you sure did. That's right. 16:11 And right down the narrow way which leadeth unto life. 16:15 So now we see how God feels about 16:17 the sin of homosexuality 16:20 as opposed to the sinner whom He loves dearly. 16:23 And when we use that term straight sometimes today, 16:25 you know, we actually, 16:27 you can just replace that by saying, 16:28 you know, redeemed and not necessarily, 16:31 you know, a heterosexuality, you know, connotation to that. 16:35 But, you know, when I came back to God 16:37 and had that experience 16:39 that amazing lightning bolt experience 16:41 that I had with Him, one of the first places 16:43 that I came in touch within His word 16:45 was something that I hadn't remembered 16:47 from my past biblical history. 16:50 And that was in 1 Corinthians 6:9- 11, 16:54 you know, and I read through there 16:56 and I saw that, you know, 16:58 God shows His displeasure for homosexual offenders 17:02 and for adulterers and idolaters 17:05 and the list goes on and it's like I'm inclusive, 17:08 I was inclusive in that. 17:09 I was in that list three times. 17:12 Three times I was going to the bad place. 17:14 Well, there you go. 17:16 But the beauty of how that passage ends, 17:19 it says "and such were some of you" 17:22 showing that redemption is possible, 17:25 the healing is possible, 17:26 the beauty of coming into agreement 17:29 with Jesus Christ and let Him rule 17:32 and heal us in our lives. 17:34 Wayne, I have to say 17:35 that when you bring up that text, 17:38 that text was a pivotal point in my experience. 17:42 Someone showed me that text and they read it 17:44 "and such were some of you." 17:46 "But ye are washed, ye are justified, 17:49 you are sanctified in the name of the Lord Jesus 17:52 and by the spirit of our God." 17:53 And I, that very night ended up taking a stand for Jesus 17:59 because of that one text 18:01 and Paul was talking to Corinthians 18:02 who had been homosexual. 18:04 It's a powerful text. Exactly. 18:07 So now we know a little bit about 18:12 ourselves as sinners on this earth 18:14 having arrived with the fallen nature. 18:16 Then we've been given guidance about 18:18 how we can differentiate between the kinds of sins 18:22 that might be of concern to a us 18:24 or might have prevalence in our lives 18:26 and how to identify ourselves knowing our sinful state. 18:31 And then God comes in and begins to show us, 18:34 you know, what to do under the circumstances 18:37 of that sin being prevalent or occurring in our lives. 18:42 So here I am knowing that I'm a sinner 18:45 then I see that I'm same-sex attracted 18:47 and then before I know it for myself, 18:50 I was out of the church, 18:51 I was out of the presence of God. 18:53 I was living in a life of immorality. 18:56 I was living not in accordance with His will 18:59 but against His will. 19:01 And then God shines His light on me and says 19:05 "Here are some truths that I want you to consider 19:10 and will you take notice of Me as being your God, 19:14 being King of the universe?" Having respect for who I am 19:20 and inviting the Holy Spirit into my life 19:24 to bring about conviction in my heart 19:26 that only Jesus could do, not another person could do. 19:29 And so what happens here- 19:32 what is that reconciling relationship with Jesus Christ? 19:36 What does that look like? Okay. 19:39 We see how God feels toward us 19:43 and how He feels toward sin 19:45 and they are diametrically opposed to each other. 19:48 And so why would He reveal that to us 19:51 unless He gave us a way to reconcile 19:53 this big, this big void. 19:56 And so I listed, you know, a few text of scripture 19:58 that to me were sequential in my understanding 20:01 on how to bring about this reconciliation. 20:04 In Matthew 1:21 the very name of Jesus 20:07 means Savior and Deliverer 20:09 and He was given that name 20:11 because He was to save His people from their sins. 20:15 So in other words, He came to save people 20:19 who were not repentant yet, to draw them and so forth. 20:23 He came to save them from their sins, 20:25 not in the sin of homosexuality 20:27 but from the sin of homosexuality. 20:30 And then 1 John 3:4 tells us 20:33 that sin is a transgression of the law. 20:35 So if He came to save us from sin, 20:37 we need to know what sin is. 20:39 Right. 20:40 We have to accept God's definition 20:42 that it is violating the commandments. 20:45 And then we read in Romans 3:23 that all have sinned at least, 20:49 I know I have. Maybe you have too. 20:52 "All have sin and come short of the glory of God." 20:56 So Jesus came to save all of us. 20:58 Why? 21:00 Because Romans 6:23 because the "wages of sin is death" 21:03 and this is why, Wayne, that God hates sin so much. 21:10 Because it's unplugging from the life source. 21:13 It is separating His children from Himself. 21:17 It works to separate and actually in the end, 21:20 you know, these children whom He created 21:22 to love and cuddle 21:24 and to be with for all eternity, 21:26 it works to ultimately destroy them. 21:29 And so of course, He would hate it. 21:31 I mean, I would hate anything 21:32 that would pull my children away 21:33 from me for all eternity. 21:35 So it's only logical. 21:37 And then Romans 5:10 "For if, when we were enemies," 21:41 and that's what we all were, 21:44 "we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, 21:47 much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." 21:50 So God has made a way while we're enemies. 21:53 He draws us to Himself. 21:56 And then 1 Corinthians 5:17 tells us that 21:59 "We can be new creatures in Christ." 22:02 And this is an amazing thing about God 22:04 that He will work to recreate us 22:07 to what we were created to be in the first place. 22:10 Right. 22:11 also backs that up. 22:13 "It is God which works in us 22:15 to will and to do of His good pleasure." 22:17 And then Philippians 1:6 22:20 "That we can be confident of this very thing 22:22 that He which has begun a good work, 22:24 He will perform it." 22:26 And so these are just a few texts 22:28 that we're all familiar with 22:30 that show us that though God hates the sin, 22:34 He loves the sinner 22:36 and He has provided a way to reconcile, 22:39 to separate the sinner from that thing 22:41 that is destroying him and reconcile him back to himself 22:45 and recreate him into the image of God. 22:48 And that's what, you know, we talk about 22:50 is being new creatures in Christ 22:53 because He is working this out in us. 22:56 So, Ron, here I am, I've tuned in to this channel 23:01 Pure Choices and I'm watching today 23:05 and I just happened to be channel-surfing 23:07 I'm a practicing gay individual 23:11 and I'm starting to hear 23:13 what you guys are talking about here. 23:15 And so I'm thinking that maybe 23:19 I should listen to the Holy Spirit, 23:21 I should listen to what God might be saying to my soul 23:24 and I'm convicted while I'm watching this program 23:27 that I can see through the power of Jesus Christ 23:31 and through the power of the Holy Spirit 23:32 that I'm living in dis-accordance 23:34 with God's will and then I've been living 23:36 according to my own will under the deception 23:39 and the influence of the evil one. 23:42 What do I do? 23:45 Submit. 23:48 You know, if-- you know, 23:50 I use this illustration a lot 23:52 and you will probably hear it on this program 23:53 a few more times. 23:55 If someone is drowning in the sea, say the sea of sin. 23:59 Sure. 24:00 The lifeguard comes out, 24:03 the lifeguard needs the drowning person 24:07 to accept that saving hand, to accept the life 24:12 device or whatever is thrown to him. 24:14 And God says, you know, if you just submit to Me, 24:17 I will work out my plan in your life. 24:19 You don't have to feel perfect, 24:22 you need to just accept that I can 24:25 and will be your personal Savior from that sin. 24:29 It is a beautiful journey 24:30 and this is what you and Mike and I've been 24:33 trying to show through our various ministries 24:35 and in Coming Out Ministries, we're on a journey. 24:39 I've been 21 years on this journey, 24:41 you what four years on the Journey, 24:43 Mike 12 years, 24:44 we're at various stages along the path. 24:47 But it's an amazing exciting journey. 24:51 Growing process. Yeah, growing venture. 24:53 You can't expect it all at once and the thing is this 24:56 that God has told us throughout His Word 24:58 that when we fall 25:01 that He is there and He'll pick us back up. 25:03 And it's not that it's sheep graze 25:06 or that it gives us permission to fall 25:08 but that as we grow in Him, 25:11 we begin to trust Him more 25:13 and that we believe in the strength 25:15 that He provides us day in and day out. 25:18 Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. 25:20 So we're-- the idea then 25:23 is to get our focus off the world 25:25 and off the deception and back onto Jesus Christ. 25:29 And that comes through an abiding 25:31 daily surrender to Him. 25:34 As I abide in Christ, I surrender my life to Him, 25:38 I find that today, when I walk down the street 25:41 and I experience temptation that I immediately call upon 25:45 and ask for the Holy Spirit to take those thoughts 25:49 that have been in my mind 25:51 and to renew my mind with pure thoughts 25:54 and the thoughts that Jesus would have me. 25:56 Do you still experience temptation at all 25:59 in this travel today? 26:01 Oh, what a question. 26:03 You know, I was baptized 21 years ago. 26:07 Satan wasn't. Yes. 26:09 Right? Yeah, exactly. 26:11 I've changed my direction. Satan hasn't changed his. 26:15 But, you know, you can give him such a resounding defeat 26:17 in certain areas of your life 26:19 that he may just give up in that 26:21 find and try something else. 26:22 That's right. 26:23 And so I have put this behind me. 26:26 I have moved on. 26:27 I'm married, I have children, I have grandchildren, 26:29 I have a full-time ministry 26:31 and but I would never say 26:34 that Satan doesn't try to throw some kind of a mud ball at me 26:39 but I've learned how to throw it back. 26:40 No, thanks. Not interested. Nice try. 26:44 And move on and bring every thought into captivity 26:47 under the obedience of Christ. 26:49 That's right. 26:50 Ron, this has been a fascinating conversation 26:54 and, you know, I just want to remind people today 26:57 that in my walk with Christ that I come to Him 27:00 each and every day, in the morning. 27:03 through study, and through prayer, 27:05 and that I begin to communicate with Him. 27:08 I want to set the precedents for the whole day 27:12 when I'm doing that so that I know 27:13 that He is continually with me. 27:16 Thank you so much for joining us 27:19 for this topic today here on Pure Choices. 27:22 I'm Wayne Blakely from Coming Out Ministries. 27:25 We have been so blessed with the testimony of Ron 27:29 and I concur with what he has stated today, 27:33 we have had a lot of scriptural guidance here 27:37 that I hope you have richly benefited from. 27:40 I invite to look at 27:42 future programming here on Pure Choices 27:45 where we have been discussing the topic of homosexuality. 27:49 Thanks so much and have a very blessed day. |
Revised 2016-02-25