Participants: Ron Woolsey (Host), Wayne Blakely
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000039
00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:05 may be too candid for younger children.
00:41 Welcome to "Pure Choices."
00:42 I'm Wayne Blakely from Coming Out Ministries.
00:45 And today my guest is Ron Woolsley,
00:48 a ministry colleague of mine in Coming Out Ministries.
00:51 Welcome, Ron. Thank you.
00:53 Ron, recently I was sharing a presentation at a church
00:58 and a gentleman came to me with question
01:01 that I thought was interesting
01:04 that someone from the church was beginning to ask.
01:07 And he said, you know,
01:09 "Wayne, how did gays gain so much power?"
01:13 And I said, "Well, I'm not sure
01:17 that you're going to like my response,
01:20 but I'll be happy to share that with you."
01:23 And I said, you know,
01:24 "Over the years in church culture, in society,
01:30 many people have lived secretly with desires
01:34 that they dare not share with the church.
01:36 And you know they, they stuff it.
01:39 They keep stuffing these emotions and these desires
01:42 because they don't feel like
01:44 they can share them openly with anyone.
01:46 And long about the ages of 18 or 19 or 20,
01:50 they finally say, 'you know what,
01:52 I'm out of here.'
01:53 Because the driving forces of nature
01:56 and of deception have finally worn out
01:59 and they exit the church doors and many of them never return."
02:04 So I said to him, you know, these are people today
02:07 that are sitting in positions of power
02:12 who have left the church and have decided
02:14 that God doesn't hold the answers for them anymore
02:17 and they entered into a simple scene
02:19 and often have been arbitrating
02:22 for gay rights and for legislation.
02:26 And we're seeing more and more
02:28 things that are being put into a lot today
02:31 that are specifically put their,
02:35 that might in essence really already be there
02:37 as for protection of hate crimes
02:41 or things that are happening to individuals at large,
02:45 but specifically, the gay community has come in
02:48 to make sure that the wording has to do
02:50 with gays in particular.
02:52 So it's a specific, a special right
02:55 for a special individual people,
02:59 specifically gays.
03:01 So I wanted to ask you a little bit about that today,
03:04 about the special laws that are being passed
03:06 and we're seeing this in the headlines today,
03:09 almost everyday.
03:11 What about the church?
03:13 What is the churches' role in all of this?
03:16 Well, the churches' role in the laws
03:19 or how the church has been affected, or?
03:21 How it's been affected?
03:22 How the church should respond?
03:25 And also, how, this is kind of a multi-parted,
03:28 but we want to cover in today's discussion.
03:31 What could the church be doing to maintain,
03:35 someone to keep them within inside the church family,
03:39 rather than ostracizing them
03:40 and having them end up in civil society
03:43 and seeking to get rights
03:46 that are more of a secular nature
03:48 than what God would have for us?
03:50 Well, of course, the church needs to be reaching out
03:53 to the gay community
03:55 or as we identify that issue within our church
04:00 and we don't shove it aside, we don't hide from it,
04:05 we address it,
04:06 we in a loving way show these people
04:11 that they too are recipients of God's grace,
04:17 His love, and our candidates for conversion.
04:22 Would you say that the church has been a bit inept
04:25 in their, not knowing how to reach out
04:28 that there's been lack of education
04:30 and that there are bigger efforts
04:31 that are moving in to seek to normalize
04:35 the, the gay presence and gay rights
04:39 actually within the church itself?
04:41 Well, I think so.
04:43 It's quite evident to me
04:45 and I think to you having been there,
04:48 that as the church has been unable
04:52 to successfully deal with the issue,
04:54 there's a very orchestrated effort
04:56 as in the world.
04:58 There's a very orchestrated effort
05:01 to bring acceptance into the church.
05:03 And if the church doesn't have answers for the gay issue,
05:08 then they are almost powerless to stop the pro-gay influences
05:14 that are coming into the church.
05:17 We have some pretty hard evidence
05:20 of some of these efforts that have been made
05:22 towards the church in kind of laying the ground work.
05:27 I mean there's even a couple of denominations
05:29 that I've been familiar with that have incorporated,
05:33 you know, well, we have,
05:35 you know, things that have been passed now
05:36 as gays marriage, and there's gays clergy,
05:39 there's a little differentiation
05:43 between someone today who is, who has made a decision
05:48 to be a pastor regardless of what,
05:52 whether they are heterosexual or homosexual.
05:55 There has been some particular petitions
05:58 that I think that you are aware of
06:00 and wanted to share with us today.
06:03 Can you share one of those with us?
06:04 Yes, actually there are three examples
06:07 of this pro-gay effort within, not just our denomination,
06:13 but I mean, the pro-gay effort is,
06:16 it's an effort that prevails every echelon of society.
06:21 But within our own denomination,
06:23 I'm very aware of three particular examples.
06:27 And if I could just share some snippets
06:30 from each one of the--
06:31 It's a given idea what we're facing
06:33 because we as Christians need to be aware
06:36 of this very aggressive effort
06:40 to promote acceptance of homosexuality
06:44 within the church.
06:47 I was at a convention at one point and was left.
06:49 There was a flier left at my booth
06:52 where I'm of course, trying to network
06:55 with people showing resources for overcoming homosexuality.
07:00 And then I come back from a little break
07:03 and there's a flier on my booth,
07:04 it's called "Come As You Are."
07:07 And I thought well, this is interesting.
07:08 And so I picked it up
07:10 and the inside cover reads like this.
07:13 "You are loved," emphasis in the typing.
07:16 "You are loved.
07:18 Gay Christians are wholly loved and accepted by God."
07:23 And I thought about that and I said,
07:24 well, that's partly true, but not completely true.
07:28 And you can,
07:32 a little truth mixed with error can be very dangerous.
07:34 Yes, it can.
07:36 And the reason I say this is because, for example,
07:37 I used to be a bartender
07:39 and as a bartender I had regular clients
07:42 that would come in and, and I knew their drinks.
07:44 And they would come in and ask for the usual.
07:46 Well, some of my clients would come in
07:48 and they would want their, their liquor straight up.
07:51 I mean, just straight alcohol in a little glass.
07:54 Someone else would want it on the rocks,
07:56 a little ice and that's a little diluted.
07:58 Someone else what's there liquor
08:00 with a little water, that's a little more diluted.
08:02 But very popular drinks are those called mixed drinks
08:06 in which there's a lot of good
08:09 and we always hear that argument.
08:11 There's a lot of good in that.
08:12 Well, there would be, for example,
08:14 a tall glass of orange juice and a short of vodka, right.
08:18 A lot of good in that drink,
08:20 but I'll tell you by the end of the night,
08:21 those drinking the mixed drinks were just as drunk
08:24 as those who are having it straight up.
08:26 They went to the rest room a lot more often,
08:29 but they were just as drunk.
08:32 And so to me it's important to realize
08:34 Satan is a master bartender.
08:36 He knows how much error
08:39 we will take with our lot of good or truth.
08:41 And so in this statement, I see that very subtle working.
08:47 You are loved.
08:48 Gay Christians are wholly loved.
08:52 And accepted implied wholly accepted by God.
08:56 Not true.
08:58 Now they are accepted if they are coming
09:00 into the school of discipleship
09:02 and are wiling to be transformed, yes.
09:04 But they are not accepted without being wholly,
09:07 entirely submitted to that process.
09:10 So here this flier is being circulated
09:14 to promote the idea that, that homosexuals should be
09:18 allowed completely into the church
09:20 without transformation.
09:23 And later on in this flier, the pamphlet stated
09:26 that the Bible never even mentions homosexuality
09:29 or sexual orientation.
09:31 Well, they were quoting from the NIV
09:36 and I was using the King James Bible.
09:38 So I just went to the NIV which they were quoting from
09:41 in the opening statement about
09:42 "Come unto me, all ye that labor."
09:46 And there the text of scripture
09:47 that we use in Leviticus and Romans and all of that.
09:52 And the King James it doesn't say homosexual,
09:54 it just describes the behavior.
09:56 But in the NIV it uses the words homosexuality
09:59 and homosexual, so it's very specific.
10:01 But here again,
10:02 the effort is to try to put forth the position
10:07 that God doesn't mentioned homosexuality,
10:09 so therefore, it's okay.
10:11 But God also knows
10:13 that we can mess around with labels
10:15 and terms and definitions and so in the Bible
10:19 He just spells out the behavior.
10:21 There is no way to miss what He's talking about.
10:26 And, anyway, this, this flier was being circulated
10:30 quite heavily within this convention,
10:32 which is a worldwide convention for our denomination.
10:37 Then there are several petitions
10:39 that have also gone around.
10:43 This one was prior to another worldwide convention
10:48 and the effort is to try to get the church
10:51 to change its position on homosexuality
10:55 rather than assist the homosexual
10:57 in changing his behavior to become like Christ.
11:00 It's an opposite approach and if I could just share
11:04 just a few thoughts from here that show--
11:07 And what we're trying to show here is the effort,
11:10 this steady, concentrated effort
11:13 to infringe upon the church to baptize perversion.
11:21 One of all the distinctives, their, their petition says
11:24 this, it opens this way.
11:26 Of all the distinctives that might define Christians,
11:29 Jesus identified only one thing
11:32 that will distinguish His followers.
11:34 I had trouble right there.
11:36 Does only God only give one thing?
11:39 And then they quote John 13.
11:41 A new command I give you, love one another.
11:46 And so they are using the text love one another
11:49 to condone perversion.
11:52 But I don't think Jesus is telling us when He saying
11:55 "Love one another as I have loved you"
11:59 to go sleep with anybody you want to
12:01 as many partners as you want
12:03 and of the same sex as well as the opposite sex.
12:07 I was quite shocked to see
12:09 the word of God used in such a way
12:12 when the love that Jesus is talking about
12:15 is a high, holy, agape love
12:17 and they turn it around, at least the appearances
12:20 to mean a perverted sensual type of love.
12:26 And that was the opening statement.
12:30 You know, I would like to interject here a little bit
12:33 about some of the media that's out there today,
12:37 the gay themed media that's been put
12:40 in front of families, you know, everywhere to take a look at.
12:46 There are different campaigns out there today that say
12:49 "Hey, you know, this is who I am,
12:51 accept me just the way I am" with really very little
12:55 or no reference to the word of God.
12:57 And I recently previewed a film where that had a,
13:01 it's great focus was on this idea of,
13:05 to love one another.
13:06 And while I think that's so important,
13:09 I think that is important
13:10 that we don't forget what kind of love that is.
13:14 You know, Jesus' love, it can be very different
13:16 from that of a fleshly love or worldly love.
13:20 And as I viewed this particular piece of media,
13:24 you know, various homosexual couples
13:27 had come together who said that there was, you know,
13:30 that there's nothing they can do
13:32 about how they are or who they are.
13:34 And that, the only options available to them
13:38 were to be either heterosexual or celibate
13:42 and that, that wasn't something
13:43 that they felt that God was directing them.
13:47 And I begin to think, well, sometimes the things that,
13:50 that, if we doesn't feel like something we want to do,
13:55 we might say that it's not what God intended.
13:57 When God in essence has really directing us
14:00 through His word about whether we're homosexual
14:04 or whether we're same sex attracted
14:06 or, or single heterosexual.
14:10 God does call us to moral behavior
14:14 which is intimacy between a man and a woman
14:17 only after marriage
14:18 and that's all I've actually been able to find in His word.
14:22 So it's interesting to me and these were the things
14:24 that I considered in my walk back with Christ
14:26 because, you know, I would have wanted
14:28 to keep my same sex partner.
14:31 I would have wanted to look for a same sex person
14:36 to marry if I had some kind of iconic ideology in God's word
14:42 that which show me
14:43 that this was according to God's plan,
14:45 but I haven't been able to find
14:47 and I haven't had anyone who's on,
14:50 who has the agenda that you are referring to,
14:52 to be able to tell me
14:54 that there is such a proof in God's word.
14:57 In fact, I asked someone recently
14:59 who was very pro-gay
15:02 and trying to ground herself in the spiritual realm.
15:06 She kept saying to me, you know,
15:08 "Well, Wayne, you know, you needed a redeemer
15:10 because you had a life of promiscuity,
15:13 where I am representing people
15:15 who are of a same sex monogamous relationship."
15:19 And I said, "Okay, fine, yes, I did need a redeemer.
15:23 Can you give me the evidence and the proof in God's word
15:26 that He does approve
15:28 of a same sex monogamous relationship
15:30 because I've been searching the word everywhere
15:33 for such a statement, you know,
15:34 because I could, I could live with my feelings that way."
15:37 And she responded and finally said
15:39 "You won't find it in God's word."
15:41 Well, see that's the whole problem, Wayne,
15:43 in the film that you're talking about.
15:47 My understanding is and I've seen trailers of it,
15:50 I've not seen the whole film.
15:52 But the focus is upon the feelings
15:54 and the emotions of the people,
15:57 not the feelings and emotions of God
15:59 and the Creator.
16:01 And there are not references to scripture
16:03 that backup their feelings and emotions.
16:07 It's all about sympathy and empathy.
16:10 And, but where is our sympathy for our Creator
16:14 and His broken heart
16:15 and His son that was hanging on the cross
16:17 because of our giving into our feelings and emotions?
16:21 And I think that's a big problem.
16:24 You know, another thing that comes out
16:27 of this first petition here is that they referred to--
16:34 Their understanding that we as a church
16:37 have fallen short of Jesus' vision
16:40 with respect to our lesbian and gay sisters and brothers.
16:45 And they say here we confess that as a church,
16:48 we have failed to demonstrate Jesus love
16:50 in our interactions with the LGBTI members
16:53 of our community.
16:54 Well, thanks, Ron. What is LGBTI?
16:57 Well, that's a good question.
16:59 I had to kind of research that myself.
17:02 It used to be, Wayne, that the homosexual community
17:06 wanted to be tolerated and accepted as homosexuals.
17:10 As this movement has grown,
17:12 it has gone from homosexuals to gays and lesbians.
17:17 L, G, lesbians and Gay.
17:20 Now it has grown to include B, bisexuals.
17:24 It has-- The tent has enlarged
17:26 to include transgenders, that's the T.
17:29 And I, that was a new one for me,
17:31 but that's intersex,
17:33 people who are born with both male
17:37 and females organs and so forth.
17:39 And my immediate question is,
17:43 "What's going to stop this list from growing?"
17:46 You know, once we uproot God's protective hedge,
17:50 His law, His fence, "Where do we put it down?"
17:54 And I can see right here that this effort
17:57 is including more and more sexual perversions.
18:01 So if we normalize all of these things
18:03 and it looks like there is a progression.
18:06 What would be next?
18:08 If everything is put in place civilly
18:11 to protect gays and lesbians and transgendered
18:15 and intrasexual and so, you know,
18:18 for the sake of political efforts
18:19 and for the rights of people
18:21 who feel like they are minority,
18:22 what would be next?
18:24 Well, the next thing is already in the works,
18:26 its polygamy.
18:27 Well, why not?
18:28 We see polygamy in the Bible among God's chosen people.
18:33 Not that God condoned it,
18:35 but He never called it abomination.
18:39 So there are already efforts.
18:41 And now please don't think I'm promoting polygamy.
18:44 But I'm just saying
18:45 if you're going to enlarge the tent,
18:47 polygamy would be next I would think
18:49 and we see these efforts already.
18:51 Then what about this "Man-Boy Love Association?"
18:55 There are efforts to get that legalized now,
18:57 which is pedophilia.
19:00 Then what about bestiality?
19:01 Now where does it stop?
19:03 Once we start embracing these different deviations.
19:07 You know, people don't see this as a real issue
19:10 when they first hear that.
19:11 They see that as, oh, come on, that's an impossibility.
19:14 But you know, if 50 years ago, where it would have stated
19:19 that gay and lesbian love and partners
19:23 and the marriage of same sex people were possible,
19:26 I would have never dream that possible,
19:28 certainly not in my lifetime.
19:29 I would have actually thought that Jesus would come
19:31 before that would actually happen.
19:34 But we're reminded that
19:36 just as there was destruction in the past,
19:38 that there will be destruction again
19:40 due to the condition of the world.
19:43 Fifty years ago the effort was to just being tolerated,
19:46 to stop persecuting us.
19:48 Now it's gone from toleration to celebration,
19:52 to legislation, to promotion
19:55 and privilege, status and all of these things.
19:58 And so we see that there's really never
20:01 going to be an end.
20:03 When a, when an issue is focused upon self,
20:06 self gratification, self glory,
20:09 there's never total satisfaction.
20:12 In the common denominator seems to coming back in this
20:15 is the sympathy factor.
20:18 Because if we can show the pain,
20:21 the hurt, the isolation, the rejection, that somehow
20:25 and I'm finding this in our church culture today
20:28 is that well, we have the need
20:31 and we want to keep in our lives those people
20:34 that we love that somehow were compromising truth
20:39 just to say that we love them or putting an approval
20:42 on the behavior by saying that we love them.
20:46 And I think that God has shown us
20:48 that He loves us while we are still sinners,
20:52 but He doesn't want to leave us in that condition,
20:54 He's looking for us to make decisions
20:56 for His pureness, for His glory
20:58 and for doing things His way instead of our way.
21:01 It was actually someone who said,
21:04 "Uh, I have a better way who God loved dearly,
21:09 who ended up getting himself cast out of heaven."
21:13 And in this petition there are certain demands
21:16 that are being imposed upon the church.
21:19 And because in the interest of time I'll just kind of list
21:22 the, the list of demands that are being made here
21:26 because it's really quite surprising.
21:30 They call upon, in our denomination,
21:32 to extend the love in grace of Jesus to the homosexual.
21:36 Of course, grace is not defined,
21:38 but in the Greek dictionary grace is the divine influence
21:41 working upon the heart reflecting in the life.
21:44 So if we are extending love and grace to the homosexual,
21:47 we're extending a message of transformation of character.
21:50 They are calling for grace
21:52 but not in the way that it is really defined.
21:55 But then they call for acknowledging
21:57 that homosexual orientation is determined before birth,
22:02 but that's a scientific controversy right now.
22:05 That has not been determined.
22:08 Then number two, to eject as a form of violence,
22:11 any programs that attempt to change
22:14 or redirect one sexual orientation.
22:16 Now that troubles me because I'm a pastor,
22:19 I'm an evangelist, I'm a counselor.
22:23 My role is to help people change.
22:28 In evangelism, we are helping people come
22:31 from outside the law to inside the law
22:35 and they are calling for our denomination to accept
22:38 my role as an act of violence.
22:41 I think that's very shocking to see
22:44 that to help someone who is in need
22:46 is now called an act of violence.
22:49 Number three, to act deliberately and decisively
22:52 to prevent judgmental and condemning attitudes
22:55 towards homosexuals.
22:57 Number four, providing
22:59 homosexual sisters and brothers,
23:01 not only a place in our pews
23:03 but also a space on our platforms,
23:07 allowing all of the gifts
23:09 God has given them to be used to honor and serve God.
23:13 So yes, they may be very gifted people,
23:15 but are these gifts being used truly to honor and serve God?
23:20 But they are making that demand.
23:21 And then number five, fully integrating lesbian, gay,
23:26 bisexual, transgender,
23:28 and intersex members of the church
23:31 into the life of the church community.
23:34 So they are asking for full integration,
23:37 that means accepting gay marriage,
23:40 accepting homosexuality and membership.
23:44 Membership is sacred. Worship is for anyone.
23:49 Our doors should be open for anyone,
23:50 but membership is sacred
23:52 because membership allows a voice,
23:55 a deciding voice and a vote.
23:57 And they are calling for full integration
23:59 with the right to voice, to vote, and if you can vote,
24:02 you can also be put into office,
24:04 which would mean they could be church leaders,
24:07 church pastors, church bishops and all of these things.
24:10 And all of these demands
24:14 go directly against what we believe biblically.
24:18 And the point that strikes me so in all of these is that,
24:23 it's not based upon any word of God,
24:25 no text of scripture but how we feel.
24:29 We feel that this is what we need.
24:32 Ron, you know, this is just really brought to mind
24:37 a passage in Galatians
24:39 that I think you probably familiar with that.
24:41 Paul wrote as a warning to people
24:45 to not listen to the voice of a different gospel
24:50 and that if you're hearing the voice of a different gospel
24:54 that let them-- He says, let them be condemned
24:57 because this is not the gospel,
24:59 this is not the original gospel of Jesus Christ.
25:02 And, Wayne, we have to go back to asking, "How does God feel?"
25:06 These petitions are talking about how we feel.
25:09 I say we. Right.
25:10 But how does God feel?
25:13 What are His thoughts on this matter?
25:14 If we're talking about integrating a Christian church,
25:18 should we not look at the Christian principles
25:20 in the word of God?
25:21 Can I just share with you very quickly
25:23 what God says about how He feels?
25:26 Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things,"
25:31 That's talking about us. We can't trust our feelings.
25:34 "And desperately wicked: who can know it?"
25:37 And then He answers, said, "I the Lord search the heart,
25:41 I try the reins,
25:42 even to give every man according to his ways,
25:44 and according to the fruit of his doings."
25:47 And so God knows our thoughts, our feelings,
25:50 our emotions and He says,
25:51 "you don't even know how wicked your thoughts are
25:54 if they are not in tune with Mine."
25:57 And then in Isaiah 55:9
26:00 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
26:03 so are my ways higher than your ways,
26:06 and my thoughts than your thoughts."
26:09 So as Christians, should we not submit every thought,
26:13 every petition, every demand
26:16 to the thoughts and feelings of our Creator
26:19 who we're coming to worship in the first place?"
26:21 Right. Absolutely.
26:23 And, you know, I think it's important
26:24 that we not, let the pendulum swing the opposite direction
26:28 and just put everything all in one basket
26:30 because it's so important that we recognize
26:33 that God is calling us to embrace
26:38 and to show love to the sinner,
26:41 but to recognize the sin and helping that person
26:44 find their way to Jesus Christ,
26:47 identifying the sin,
26:50 supporting what the individual
26:54 and what that self denial looks like.
26:55 They are giving up
26:57 and they are giving over of self
26:58 and they are not isolating them,
27:00 but embracing them, giving them things to do
27:03 to stay involved in a church community,
27:06 bringing them to the Savior and helping them
27:10 want to repent, to want to be baptized,
27:14 to become a new creation in Jesus Christ
27:17 and recognize that God is a God of change
27:21 that can bring this change
27:22 and bring this new creation to our lives.
27:26 Amen. Yeah.
27:27 That's, that's what it's all about.
27:29 It's transformation of character.
27:31 All people coming to worship God
27:33 should be coming to become like Him,
27:37 to be changed, not to bring their garbage in,
27:40 let's say leave it at the door.
27:43 I'm Wayne Blakely on "Pure Choices."
27:44 Thank you so much
27:45 for joining us for this conversation today.
27:48 And I hope that you will continue to tune in.
27:50 Thank you. God bless you.