Pure Choices

Coming Out at Church

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Joshua Nelson (Host), Brittany Hill-Morales, Kimberly Douglas, Kory Douglas, Xavier Morales


Series Code: PC

Program Code: PC000084A

00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:04 may be too candid for younger children.
00:39 Hello, and welcome to Pure Choices.
00:40 I'm your host Pastor Joshua Nelson.
00:42 So glad that you decided join us once again.
00:44 And again, this is going to be a great one.
00:47 We're talking about the subject of Coming out at Church.
00:50 I'm going to explain that,
00:52 but let's first pause for a moment of prayer.
00:55 Heavenly Father, God we ask your Spirit would guide us
00:58 through this conversation in Jesus' name we pray, amen.
01:02 All right, let's introduce our panel.
01:04 To my left I have Kimberly Douglas.
01:07 So glad to have you here.
01:09 And over here to my right,
01:11 I have her husband Pastor K.P. Douglas.
01:14 So glad you all are here.
01:15 Next to him I have
01:17 Miss Brittany Hill-Morales so glad she's here.
01:22 Everybody got married, you got to forgive me, okay.
01:24 And next to her, I have Xavier Morales,
01:26 I'm so glad you all are here two married couples once again.
01:29 And of course, I'm Pastor Nelson,
01:31 my wife is Kimberly.
01:32 And we are here to discuss this important topic
01:36 of Coming out of Church.
01:37 Now, when I say that, I want to make sure I explain this.
01:39 I'm talking about creating an environment where it is okay,
01:43 and it's safe for people to come out and say
01:48 what they are struggling with.
01:49 What sins they are struggling with, not to say,
01:52 that they are coming out and saying,
01:53 "This is what I am deal with it."
01:55 But they come out and say,
01:56 this is what I'm having a tough,
01:59 tough time dealing with
02:00 that I've been tempted with these things
02:02 and I need some help.
02:04 How can we make the church truly become
02:08 the sanctuary that is supposed to be.
02:10 We think about a sanctuary.
02:12 You know, sanctuary for birds or sanctuary for anything
02:14 is a place where,
02:15 where individuals can come to feel safe,
02:18 and be able to share exactly where their problems are,
02:20 and they receive help to have those problems resolved.
02:24 And oftentimes, why we haven't discussed this
02:26 is because at church many time is the place
02:29 where you just keep quiet about your things,
02:31 and you act like things are going well.
02:32 You act like, everything is fine
02:34 and there's no issues.
02:35 But we're trying to now figure out a way to create a culture
02:39 that it's okay to say what you're struggling with.
02:42 So, I'll start with Pastor Douglas.
02:44 Well, I think, I think you even kind of alluded to it just now,
02:47 in your, in your question.
02:48 We're not talking about methodology.
02:51 We're not talking about our practices, programs because,
02:53 immediately people will, you know,
02:54 think of a A.Y program we can do you know,
02:57 the powwow the lock in.
02:58 But what you're talking about is organizational change.
03:01 You're talking about change
03:03 from the top down and the bottom up.
03:05 And for me organizational change begins with education.
03:09 It begins with, you know
03:10 teaching people that there is a problem first of all,
03:12 or even if it's not necessarily a problem,
03:15 but showing people, well, I guess it is a problem.
03:16 Showing people what exactly is hindering the organization
03:20 from either being relevant or moving forward.
03:22 You know, so first of all if you--
03:24 especially if you're leader, you need to educate.
03:26 You can't just come into a church and say,
03:28 "We need to do is accept everybody",
03:29 because some people just fundamentally
03:31 do not believe that.
03:32 You know, especially, because a lot of people
03:34 have come into the church on a works oriented, you know,
03:37 with the work oriented package.
03:39 You know, they,
03:40 they kind of don't look at church as a place,
03:42 where you're supposed to be able to make mistakes.
03:45 It's the place where this is why I prove
03:47 that there has been a change.
03:50 I think we have to realize that as we are talking,
03:53 we're talking about change.
03:55 Creating this culture, it's going to be
03:56 a huge change for our church.
03:58 And some people are not going to be on board with it.
04:01 They are going to be really upset,
04:03 frustrated to the point that they may even end up leaving.
04:06 And that's the reality that we're going to have to consider
04:09 and think about as we discuss about this.
04:12 Yeah, that's a really good point you know,
04:14 something we have to think about in terms of structurally,
04:16 and you know, changing the environment at church.
04:18 There are some people who want to come to church
04:20 just to feel safe, and to feel
04:22 that I want to talk about any issues,
04:24 maybe that's why they came there.
04:26 And when you do discuss these, things,
04:27 it makes them feel very uncomfortable
04:29 because they're not used to expressing how they truly feel,
04:32 or their struggles are going through.
04:35 So, yeah, we may have to, there may be some people
04:38 who just won't be able to handle this.
04:39 You know, but something we have to ask ourselves
04:42 if we really want to create this openness
04:44 are we okay with the doing.
04:46 I think it's unfortunate, you know,
04:47 some people will be lost.
04:48 You don't want them to leave. Right.
04:50 But the truth about change is that,
04:52 there's always that risk factor.
04:53 You know, when God decided to change our path
04:57 and give us salvation, He knew that, you know,
05:00 the risk is not everybody will accept salvation.
05:03 I think we have a responsibility
05:04 as a church though to do what is right.
05:06 And I think oftentimes, we're motivated by security.
05:09 You know, will the highest tithe payer leave.
05:12 You know, what I'm saying.
05:14 Will those in positions who we know
05:15 keep the day to day ins and out of the church going,
05:18 would they leave.
05:19 But I think that if you really trust God,
05:21 that the change can actually benefit you,
05:23 especially if you know you do, what you're doing is right.
05:25 You know then God will give you the real fruit in the end.
05:28 In my experience, some people have left.
05:30 And other people have taken their places,
05:32 other people stepped up,
05:33 and things have actually gotten better.
05:35 Okay.
05:36 Can we talk a little more about what this openness looks like?
05:37 What's an ideal?
05:39 How would it look like in a church?
05:40 Want to tackle that Hill-Morales and Xavier.
05:42 I think that one, one aspect of the openness is.
05:48 It's like a family atmosphere.
05:50 And in families, you don't always get along.
05:53 But at the end of the day, you work through your issues.
05:57 And I think that, that is something
05:59 that we should work towards
06:01 within our churches where you know what?
06:03 Sometimes no, we might not see eye to eye.
06:06 But if I come to you with an issue,
06:08 I know that at the end of the day,
06:10 we're going to work through.
06:12 And you're going to help me, I'm going to help you.
06:14 And we'll all, you know, we would all have grown
06:18 as a result of the encounter.
06:21 And I think too often we treat church, you know,
06:25 when it comes to that openness factor.
06:27 We were too exclusive at times, so there's a fear.
06:31 You know, we treat it like a Club Med.
06:33 You have to have a membership to get in, you know,
06:36 and I think that that mentality has more done
06:40 more to our detriment than our benefit.
06:42 You know, realizing that, you know, when you,
06:43 when you're sick, you know,
06:45 we often attribute hospital to church.
06:48 You know, you're sick, you go there to get healthy.
06:51 You know, I think a lot of times we just we,
06:54 we want to discard people or even worship.
06:58 We feel that is somebody is worse than us,
07:00 we want to put them in isolation
07:02 or a cancer ward.
07:04 You know with or a hospice because,
07:06 they're just worse than we are.
07:07 And I think creating that openness is realizing that
07:10 we're just as broken as anybody else.
07:13 And I think that, that takes a lot of prayer,
07:15 and a lot of guts to, to come to that realization
07:17 in order to come together,
07:20 and be able to deal with each other's brokenness.
07:22 Sure.
07:23 Yeah, I totally agree with that.
07:25 You know, I think that some things that you know,
07:26 helped me to kind of hope,
07:28 help promote the openness in my church
07:31 has been just trying to preach about it,
07:33 you know as a pastor.
07:35 You know, challenging pastors
07:36 actually begin to talk about this,
07:37 Sabbath school, you need to discuss it
07:39 don't shy away from it.
07:40 Even AYS you know,
07:42 programs to be able to talk about the subject of sex
07:45 or even just sin in general you know,
07:46 how we're struggling with these things.
07:48 Have breakout groups you know, small groups in the church
07:50 that meet regularly at houses and stuff.
07:52 Bible studies that touch on the subject of sin.
07:54 Well, other times you want to talk
07:56 about the doctrines and stuff.
07:57 We don't, don't want to talk about the root issue.
07:58 How it can really live up to these things.
08:01 And what it's taking my real, real everyday life, you know.
08:03 And also as leaders, you know, a lot of us are leaders.
08:07 And those who are viewing who are leaders,
08:08 we have to be brave enough to go,
08:10 come out and say ourselves.
08:11 What we have trouble with, and even sometimes
08:13 what we're struggling with.
08:15 Because even on this program, we've been very vulnerable,
08:17 I know I have, you know in sharing some things,
08:20 that you know, maybe I wouldn't be comfortable sharing before.
08:22 But I recognize that no one is perfect,
08:25 and everyone is struggling.
08:26 And so to think that
08:27 nobody else is going to be going through it only I did
08:29 is pretty arrogant of me and naive and so,
08:31 why not discuss it so that exposes the devil
08:33 and exposes his tricks.
08:35 And we can kind of discuss
08:36 how to get over these things together.
08:39 Now, the fear in that is when I do express
08:43 what I'm doing and what I'm saying.
08:44 I know for me, I've always felt this way of, you know,
08:46 even as I say this, I'm like
08:47 kind of scared about preaching and saying
08:49 what I've done, where God's taken me from
08:51 is because people will look at you and say,
08:53 "Oh man, you know, look what you did, you know."
08:56 And that's always the fear, right?
08:57 If I share what I'm going through,
08:59 maybe it's too much.
09:01 And you know, the young, the older people I'm sorry
09:03 in our churches have a responsibility as well
09:07 to the younger ones.
09:08 If you have been through something,
09:11 you have experienced, you know,
09:13 you can teach from that experience and that lesson.
09:18 So, and that goes back to the family aspect
09:21 that I was talking about, you know, here a while ago.
09:23 Yeah, I think it's, I'm glad you brought that up because,
09:25 it seems like there's always something
09:26 that they have forgotten you know.
09:27 That they did.
09:29 Yeah, I mean, you know, you were back there too.
09:30 And, come on, you should be the main ones
09:32 to lead out in this discussion
09:34 about what not to do and how to get through.
09:38 I think it also has to do a lot with, with being balanced.
09:41 You know, I think a lot of guys
09:43 share their past for facts sake.
09:46 You know, they want to preach a sermon,
09:47 a kind of wow for everybody,
09:48 it will get them on the edge of their seat,
09:50 so they come over.
09:51 But, you know, I struggled with XYZ.
09:52 But then that's kind of all they share.
09:54 You know, the thing about organizational change
09:56 is not just to educate people on what the change should be,
09:58 but also to share the vision of where to go,
10:01 go to now that you have, you know,
10:03 or try to make the change.
10:04 So, it's not just about what's our issue,
10:06 what's our problem, let's be vulnerable.
10:08 But now let's, you know, talk about where we can go.
10:12 You know, so I don't want to just tell you my faults.
10:14 I also want to share the vision I have.
10:17 We talk about, you know, changing the culture.
10:19 You can't just come in and change it and say,
10:21 this is what we want to do.
10:22 You know, what I do is, you know,
10:23 start with my leaders, and kind of infuse what I'm--
10:26 You know, while I'm teaching with them.
10:28 So about a time it becomes just the whole church.
10:30 The key people in my congregation
10:32 who have influence
10:33 are also on board with the change that that,
10:35 that we need to make in the church so.
10:37 Yeah, yeah that's important.
10:39 I want to kind of add on to what Kim and both,
10:41 and Kory is saying.
10:42 When it comes to openness, there also needs to be honesty.
10:46 And honesty is being able to say,
10:49 "I don't know fully of what you're going through.
10:52 I don't really have a clear cut answer."
10:55 We do more harm when we try to give these
10:59 half baked answers or well,
11:00 just do this and you'll be better or just that.
11:03 But with that honesty, I'd also add
11:05 that you need to be willing to go along
11:09 on that journey with the person.
11:10 Find out what can be done.
11:12 Don't just say, I'll pray for you than walk away.
11:15 Never think about them,
11:17 never wonder what's going to happen.
11:18 I should say, "Okay, I've heard what you said,
11:20 I hear that you have to struggle.
11:22 Let me see what I can do based on what God is telling me to do
11:26 to help you, so that you won't get stuck with this forever,
11:29 but you can start progressing."
11:31 Yeah, that's good.
11:33 I think to the word vulnerability is very scary
11:37 for a lot of people you know.
11:38 Vulnerable means, I'm letting down my God,
11:40 I'm letting people in.
11:42 And I think what vulnerability is,
11:45 it's definitely a culture shock.
11:46 No matter what culture you're in,
11:48 what environment you're bringing it into but, you know,
11:51 creating that environment of openness
11:54 requires a lot of work.
11:56 Requires people to be vulnerable
11:57 and I think the best way is to lead by example.
12:00 You know, to lead by example and create that environment
12:03 where you remove.
12:05 You remove the judgmental side of things.
12:07 You know, you're able to talk to,
12:10 you know talk to each other,
12:11 maybe not in as a church as a whole,
12:13 maybe you start small and work your way out.
12:15 But remove the judgmental facet of, you know,
12:18 my sin is greater than your sin or your sin.
12:20 You know, we look for comfort.
12:22 We really, where we are in a--
12:24 We have a epidemic of denial you know.
12:26 We want to deny that we went through this one.
12:28 And it's there's a lot of trauma in the church
12:31 that a lot of people refused to deal with.
12:33 It's that trauma that's hindering us
12:35 from creating that environment openness.
12:37 Yeah, it is, it does hinder
12:39 into the church in a lot of ways,
12:41 because not only is this what you should, you know,
12:43 bring out about sexual sins, but just everything in general,
12:46 because a lot of times, you know,
12:48 we always hear about testimonies how you should,
12:50 you know, give a testimony.
12:52 You know, you don't glorify the past.
12:53 You know, you can talk what you did in the past
12:55 but you talk more about what's going on in the present,
12:58 where you hope to get to in the future.
12:59 A lot of times of course,
13:00 and we talk about those people who,
13:02 they bring up the past so much whatever the case may be.
13:04 I think that, yeah, you still don't glorify the past.
13:07 But, please let's talk a little more about
13:09 the practicality of the struggle
13:11 that you had to go through
13:12 to get to the present, you know.
13:14 Because a lot of time you say, okay, I was,
13:15 I was there and now look where I'm now, you know what.
13:17 Well, how did you get there, you know.
13:19 And I think we, we don't do enough
13:21 of really discussing the house you know,
13:23 that it is tough you know,
13:25 and I'll say for me just being practical right now.
13:27 You know, it is hard.
13:29 You know, it took me a lot to get to where I'm at now.
13:32 And I've had like, I've had to go to counselors,
13:34 I've had to go to, to you know to meetings or whatnot.
13:38 You know, I've had to talk to my parents.
13:41 I've had to a lot of different things
13:42 in order to really get to the place I am now.
13:44 I had to pray a lot, fast a lot,
13:46 you know, struggle.
13:48 You know tears and all these things that took.
13:50 But a lot of those things I had to do,
13:52 it took place outside of the church.
13:55 You know, it wasn't that I did not.
13:57 I did, I really didn't feel safe enough to go to the church
14:00 and do those type of things in the church.
14:02 Well, I think we got to be more intentional about it as well.
14:05 You know, not just making change
14:06 but actually implementing change.
14:08 You know, making a plan
14:09 and then sticking to that plan saying listen.
14:11 We actually want to focus on these things.
14:13 You know, what I'm saying have program before.
14:15 You know, I know at my church,
14:17 we did a whole month on just family issues.
14:19 You know, marriage, relationship, dating,
14:21 sex and actually you know, doing pure,
14:23 doing Pure Choices actually helped a lot in that process.
14:26 But we made sure that we addressed certain things,
14:29 like I preached the whole sermon just homo-sex.
14:31 You know, and it kind of creates that environment
14:33 that talking about sex in church is okay, you know.
14:38 Yeah, that's good.
14:40 So how, how do you act though if you have, you know,
14:44 being open about what you're going through
14:45 and everybody in the church knows
14:47 what you've gone through, they know,
14:48 know the dark secrets, you know.
14:50 And not of course, you got to be careful what you share
14:52 with anyone that you know.
14:55 You know, how, how should you-- How should you act,
14:57 or how should you even treat a person like that, you know,
15:00 in if they have divorce what they would they have done.
15:03 You know, how should they act and how we should treat them.
15:06 My church for example.
15:08 I'm very transparent with them.
15:10 And they know a lot of things about me
15:11 that I've been through.
15:13 The members that I work with, they embrace me.
15:16 We share our brokenness together.
15:17 You know, we have an understanding that,
15:19 you know, there's your privacy and things like that.
15:22 But at the same time, you know, I love where I'm at
15:25 because of that factor, because you can be, you know,
15:29 you can be open about who you are
15:31 and not only do they embrace you
15:32 but they pray with you to bring that healing,
15:35 to help you, to nurture you.
15:37 And that's the biggest fact, you know,
15:40 with this whole aspect of they know your business or so,
15:44 you know, almost all your business but,
15:45 are you creating this nurturing environment for it, you know.
15:48 And that's the one thing that I like about the church
15:50 that I'm at that they nurture me into better health.
15:53 And that's beautiful, that's
15:54 how a church really should be, right?
15:56 Be able to nurture and accept.
15:57 Do you want to add something to that?
15:59 Sure, I think also
16:01 for those of us who might be, you know,
16:03 in churches and see a need if there is no group
16:09 or no support system, you can start one.
16:13 I think one of the--
16:15 Kory was talking about organizational change.
16:17 I know what I'm thinking about the classroom
16:19 and changing the culture of the classroom or school.
16:22 You have to realize that
16:24 everyone is not going to be on board all at once.
16:27 Very often, you have to sell the vision.
16:29 And for those who buy into the vision,
16:31 you move forward with those individuals.
16:34 So, for those of us like I said who see a need
16:38 maybe going one on one and speaking to people,
16:40 because the other thing that makes
16:43 creating culture change
16:47 possible is establishing relationships
16:51 and genuine relationships.
16:53 So that people feel okay, like I can come to you,
16:56 and you're not just the pastor.
16:58 But I know that you have my best interests at heart.
17:00 And I can come to you,
17:01 and it's not going to go to sister such and such
17:04 or brother such and such after we speak.
17:06 Yeah, you know, and that's also
17:07 with everyone being open because,
17:09 hey, if it's just one person saying all their stuff
17:12 to somebody in a small group environment,
17:14 nobody else is saying, it's kind of like,
17:15 oh, you know man.
17:17 You haven't said anything either.
17:19 So, so now let's talk a little bit about it--
17:22 Okay, Brittany, go ahead.
17:24 Okay, I was going to say based on my experiences of talking
17:28 to Christian women who have sexual addictions.
17:31 The issue of being open in church is people hear
17:37 and they say okay, but they don't know
17:40 how to move forward as and then they said,
17:42 "Okay, I spoke to this person,
17:44 but I'm still struggling because
17:46 they don't check up on me.
17:47 They said, they would be my accountability partner,
17:49 but they don't do it.
17:50 They said, they would help us, but they don't do it."
17:52 So, we need to have that sort of dedication of, okay,
17:57 we're talking about this right now,
17:59 someone's listening and they're saying,
18:00 "Okay, this sounds good."
18:01 But can you actually move forward and actually do it.
18:05 Because it hurts more to be vulnerable
18:08 come out and say this.
18:10 And everybody knows it but no one is helping.
18:12 Yeah, that's good.
18:14 And I think just to piggyback on that.
18:16 There are you know, there are people
18:18 going through some real issues.
18:20 And I think that as leaders in our church,
18:23 if we find out about or hear about
18:26 some of these issues and we know that
18:28 we cannot handle them, do not pretend you can.
18:32 There are trained professionals who deal with these situations,
18:36 and unfortunately in our culture,
18:38 it's not very popular to go to therapy,
18:40 and it's not very popular to seek help outside.
18:44 But if it is necessary I think that if changes to come about,
18:48 those necessary steps need to take place.
18:51 Here and you have to you know,
18:52 we're going to try to go to next about loving.
18:54 Loving those who are going through issues, you know.
18:57 Hating the sin but loving the sinner.
18:59 I know that's kind of a phrase
19:01 that we throw around a lot but...
19:02 You know, knowing that I still love you
19:05 and if you are going through something in the church,
19:08 remember the church not just the building,
19:10 it's just not an organization, a church or people
19:13 who are struggling really together,
19:15 striving to be like Jesus.
19:16 And so, if you're hurting, I'm hurting as well.
19:20 And so, if I'm not checking on you,
19:22 maybe because I'm not empathizing with your hurt.
19:24 I'm not feeling the same pain which you're feeling.
19:26 And I'm just thinking about what I'm going through.
19:27 There's so much of that in the church,
19:29 so much selfishness of I'm counter my life, my bubble,
19:32 my click, my circle.
19:33 And I'm not worried about what's happening with you,
19:35 you know, but that has to stop.
19:36 That's not how I think Jesus would want our churches to be.
19:39 Xavier in and then I'll pass it.
19:41 I think it takes a few steps.
19:42 Number one, you know, the person has to acknowledge
19:44 that they want to change.
19:46 You can't, you know, you can't change
19:47 whoever doesn't want to change.
19:48 You know, what I mean.
19:50 The other aspect is understanding that
19:52 if they want to change this like
19:53 this is a sinful behavior that I'm doing,
19:54 that I want to get rid of.
19:56 Understand that that behavior does not make--
19:59 That's not who they are.
20:01 Thus who what they're choosing to do but that's not who makes,
20:04 what makes them tick, that's not who they are as a whole,
20:06 as a person character wise.
20:08 And that's where you know,
20:10 you remove and understand that
20:11 whatever they're trying to get rid off, they really.
20:13 You need to help them to work on that,
20:15 and still love them because they haven't changed,
20:18 they're the same person then.
20:19 They got a good heart, they're just struggling with something
20:21 that they want to get rid off.
20:22 Yeah, amen
20:24 I think the big issue with coming out is acceptance.
20:27 And that's what people want is acceptance
20:29 but I think that we have a confused
20:32 definitions of acceptance and especially
20:34 with the whole homosexual conversation
20:37 'cause we do sexual sin but, you know,
20:39 people don't come to church or afraid to come to church
20:41 where they think we won't be accepted.
20:43 Now, if you come to my church, you're homosexual
20:45 I will accept you but I will not condone what you do,
20:49 and that should to be our, you know,
20:51 our philosophy for sin in general.
20:53 God accepts you as you are, God does not accept sin.
20:57 The reason he wants you to come
20:59 because he's trying to remove sin.
21:00 You know, what I'm saying.
21:01 I love the Apostle Paul because and I think maybe this is what
21:04 we got to do for openness as well.
21:06 Just kind of jumped to it, the Apostle Paul,
21:07 when he writes his litters,
21:09 he writes to people who are messed up.
21:10 He usually writes because they've written to him
21:12 telling him the problems.
21:14 You know, and he's able in the same letter to say,
21:16 there's somebody in here sleeping with his,
21:18 with his father's wife
21:20 and call out all the mess and in the same book he says,
21:24 but you are saint of God,
21:26 you have been baptized into Christ,
21:27 you have been raised into newness of life with him.
21:30 So, he kind of, he kind of calls out their sin
21:33 but he lets them know that, even with those sins,
21:35 in Christ God still considers you as long as you give it,
21:39 give it over to him.
21:40 And you know, give it over may not say,
21:42 I'm gonna change today,
21:43 but as long as I allow God to work out the process,
21:45 God considers you as saved
21:48 and raised a newness in on life.
21:50 And we have to have that, that atmosphere,
21:52 we treat people that way.
21:53 Yeah, you know, that person may be homosexual.
21:55 You know, they may be struggling with it,
21:57 they may be trying to stop.
21:58 But I'm going to treat you as if you've already overcome it.
22:00 Amen.
22:01 I love that, you know, and I use this imagery of, you know,
22:03 Jesus is speaking us up, His Grace is what,
22:06 is what covers us, protects us from the condemnation
22:08 but it also is fixing us up.
22:10 And I use the imagery of, you know, let's say Kimberly,
22:12 you're the sinner, you know,
22:14 and I can represent Jesus in this illustration.
22:16 Of course, yes.
22:18 And let's say, you know,
22:20 the law is condemning me from this side,
22:22 but when it looks at me.
22:23 It sees Jesus who's in the way,
22:26 but Jesus is not just standing here,
22:27 facing the walls, He's actually facing me
22:29 and fixing me up,
22:30 and working out my sins out of me, you know,
22:33 and that's what, you know,
22:35 really it's all about the cleansing,
22:36 not just forgiving of your sins
22:38 but the cleansing of you, you know.
22:39 And so that's where it really have to be
22:41 if we're the hands of your Jesus in the church,
22:44 we are the clean.
22:46 What God is using to clean up people in the church
22:50 and to get rid of the sin.
22:51 And, that's why I love it, and you know,
22:53 that that has to be our understanding.
22:56 We often like to think about the pretty picture of
22:58 people are just perfect people now.
23:00 But there will be people, who will come to our church
23:05 and they want to know, how can I deal with these,
23:07 these feelings I have towards the same sex.
23:10 What do I do when I'm, you know,
23:12 constantly looking at pornography
23:14 and I can't stop?
23:15 You know, what I do I'm addicted to sex, you know?
23:16 These will be questions that we have to know how to address.
23:19 You know, if I could just real quick.
23:22 What I love about Christ is His methods meant.
23:24 He is so different from ours.
23:26 When we think about coming to Christ,
23:28 we really think about coming for cleaning,
23:30 coming to be changed.
23:32 Imagine Jesus calls His disciples
23:34 and not one time does He address their faults.
23:36 He never from the beginning says,
23:39 "I will make you fishers of men,
23:40 if you get rid of XYZ."
23:42 He says, "Come to me,
23:43 I will make you fishers of men."
23:45 And as they walk with Him, slowly but surely,
23:48 He begins to pour into them, what He knows is the best,
23:51 better thing to do.
23:52 You know, our churches are so flat tire
23:55 because we don't take that first step of saying,
23:57 listen just come and follow me.
23:59 You know, what I'm saying.
24:00 Even as Paul says, "Follow me, as I follow Christ.
24:02 So, that I can speak into you, I can show you
24:05 what fishers of men actually looks like."
24:07 And the great news that when Jesus dies,
24:08 and rises again, and leaves,
24:10 they are still not perfect, they are still messed up,
24:13 and yet He still trust
24:14 the birth of a brand new church to them.
24:17 You know, knowing that if they just stays on the path,
24:19 that he will eventually take out of them
24:21 the things that He needs to.
24:22 But only a person who is safe, only a person who is safe
24:28 can make that claim.
24:30 Because you know what you're capable of doing,
24:33 and you see where you want to go which was you know,
24:37 the case with Christ.
24:38 So he could say, "Just follow me,
24:40 and I will do the work."
24:43 Often times we say, "Yes, follow me."
24:46 But then the people come,
24:49 and how do we treat them when they come.
24:51 We think that's it.
24:52 Like you just stops when... You know so.
24:54 And that's and I love that you all are saying
24:56 because I always tell people who are struggling
24:58 if they should get baptized or not.
25:00 I say listen.
25:01 "You know, yeah, I know you're not perfect right now,
25:03 but when do you take a bath.
25:05 You take a bath, when you are clean
25:07 or take a bath when your dirty, you know?"
25:09 You have to come to the water
25:10 when you know that you're messed up.
25:12 That's when He wants you, because when you accept Him,
25:15 He's gonna fix you up.
25:16 That's the power of the spirit, you know.
25:18 And so, if our church is really preaching this,
25:20 which is really righteous by faith
25:22 that we truly believe this,
25:23 then we're going to have an environment for say,
25:25 "Hey, you're here.
25:26 Let's begin the process that Christ wants you to have."
25:30 And if we don't have an environment open for that,
25:33 then it stunts the growth.
25:35 I think, well, I'm sorry but...
25:36 I was not gonna say perfection has no need of a Savior,
25:40 so I think where we fall short as a church,
25:43 and why we have such a problem dealing with
25:46 that maybe the more of egregious sense,
25:47 the homosexuality is because,
25:49 some of the people in church
25:50 aren't really sure of their salvation either.
25:53 And it's hard to, it's hard to pull people in who are sick.
25:57 You know, who are dealing with things
25:58 you consider worse in your things
26:00 if you don't have the confidence of knowing
26:02 that you're safe in Christ yourself.
26:05 I wanted to be able to talk some about church discipline.
26:08 I don't think we have too much time, maybe real quick.
26:09 How you all feel, church discipline something
26:11 that we should still administer,
26:12 and how can we do it
26:14 if we're to print this openness in church,
26:16 because people will need to be disciplined at some time so.
26:19 Yeah, we need to remember that church discipline
26:21 is supposed to be done in love.
26:23 And every time I've seen church discipline,
26:25 it's just been okay, you're now you're out of the church.
26:28 Yeah, great that's it.
26:30 If we're going to do it,
26:32 we need to be able to communicate
26:33 with the person,
26:34 that is going to be discipline and say,
26:36 this is what's happening, this is why it's happening,
26:38 and move from there and say,
26:39 "We're going to try to figure out
26:41 how to help you get better versus
26:43 just saying you're out of the church.
26:44 Good bye."
26:46 Yeah, there has to be a plan to restore,
26:48 redeem the sinner, exactly.
26:50 Do you want to add something that real quick for 30 seconds?
26:53 No, we did it on that.
26:54 I think, she might have said it.
26:55 I was going to say though, it's just like you know,
26:57 whole point of incarceration prison
27:00 is supposed to be to fix.
27:02 You know, and prison messes up because it sends
27:04 prisons back out same mentality.
27:06 You know, we pull people in,
27:08 we're supposed to reconcile them.
27:10 The whole point of it is reform.
27:12 The point is not to condemn.
27:14 It's, you know, in just point out the flaws.
27:16 It's to point you towards change.
27:17 Yeah.
27:18 Yeah, I like that, I guess that's where we'll end it.
27:20 You know, we have to think
27:21 critically about this thing as church members.
27:23 How can we actually deal with those,
27:25 who are struggling in the church?
27:26 Maybe, you know, you're the one saying,
27:28 "I'm good, I'm perfect."
27:30 But I probably dare you to think about
27:31 what you're really struggling with.
27:33 There are some things that you also have to work through
27:35 and there are people in your church
27:36 that are struggling as well.
27:38 There has to be something that we can do as a church,
27:41 as a people to create this environment of openness.
27:44 So, please start that discussion
27:46 and always remember,
27:48 at the end of day make pure choices.
27:49 God bless.
27:51 We had a good time talking today.


Revised 2016-04-11