Participants: Joshua Nelson (Host), Brittany Hill-Morales, Kimberly Douglas, Kory Douglas, Xavier Morales
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000084A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:04 may be too candid for younger children. 00:39 Hello, and welcome to Pure Choices. 00:40 I'm your host Pastor Joshua Nelson. 00:42 So glad that you decided join us once again. 00:44 And again, this is going to be a great one. 00:47 We're talking about the subject of Coming out at Church. 00:50 I'm going to explain that, 00:52 but let's first pause for a moment of prayer. 00:55 Heavenly Father, God we ask your Spirit would guide us 00:58 through this conversation in Jesus' name we pray, amen. 01:02 All right, let's introduce our panel. 01:04 To my left I have Kimberly Douglas. 01:07 So glad to have you here. 01:09 And over here to my right, 01:11 I have her husband Pastor K.P. Douglas. 01:14 So glad you all are here. 01:15 Next to him I have 01:17 Miss Brittany Hill-Morales so glad she's here. 01:22 Everybody got married, you got to forgive me, okay. 01:24 And next to her, I have Xavier Morales, 01:26 I'm so glad you all are here two married couples once again. 01:29 And of course, I'm Pastor Nelson, 01:31 my wife is Kimberly. 01:32 And we are here to discuss this important topic 01:36 of Coming out of Church. 01:37 Now, when I say that, I want to make sure I explain this. 01:39 I'm talking about creating an environment where it is okay, 01:43 and it's safe for people to come out and say 01:48 what they are struggling with. 01:49 What sins they are struggling with, not to say, 01:52 that they are coming out and saying, 01:53 "This is what I am deal with it." 01:55 But they come out and say, 01:56 this is what I'm having a tough, 01:59 tough time dealing with 02:00 that I've been tempted with these things 02:02 and I need some help. 02:04 How can we make the church truly become 02:08 the sanctuary that is supposed to be. 02:10 We think about a sanctuary. 02:12 You know, sanctuary for birds or sanctuary for anything 02:14 is a place where, 02:15 where individuals can come to feel safe, 02:18 and be able to share exactly where their problems are, 02:20 and they receive help to have those problems resolved. 02:24 And oftentimes, why we haven't discussed this 02:26 is because at church many time is the place 02:29 where you just keep quiet about your things, 02:31 and you act like things are going well. 02:32 You act like, everything is fine 02:34 and there's no issues. 02:35 But we're trying to now figure out a way to create a culture 02:39 that it's okay to say what you're struggling with. 02:42 So, I'll start with Pastor Douglas. 02:44 Well, I think, I think you even kind of alluded to it just now, 02:47 in your, in your question. 02:48 We're not talking about methodology. 02:51 We're not talking about our practices, programs because, 02:53 immediately people will, you know, 02:54 think of a A.Y program we can do you know, 02:57 the powwow the lock in. 02:58 But what you're talking about is organizational change. 03:01 You're talking about change 03:03 from the top down and the bottom up. 03:05 And for me organizational change begins with education. 03:09 It begins with, you know 03:10 teaching people that there is a problem first of all, 03:12 or even if it's not necessarily a problem, 03:15 but showing people, well, I guess it is a problem. 03:16 Showing people what exactly is hindering the organization 03:20 from either being relevant or moving forward. 03:22 You know, so first of all if you-- 03:24 especially if you're leader, you need to educate. 03:26 You can't just come into a church and say, 03:28 "We need to do is accept everybody", 03:29 because some people just fundamentally 03:31 do not believe that. 03:32 You know, especially, because a lot of people 03:34 have come into the church on a works oriented, you know, 03:37 with the work oriented package. 03:39 You know, they, 03:40 they kind of don't look at church as a place, 03:42 where you're supposed to be able to make mistakes. 03:45 It's the place where this is why I prove 03:47 that there has been a change. 03:50 I think we have to realize that as we are talking, 03:53 we're talking about change. 03:55 Creating this culture, it's going to be 03:56 a huge change for our church. 03:58 And some people are not going to be on board with it. 04:01 They are going to be really upset, 04:03 frustrated to the point that they may even end up leaving. 04:06 And that's the reality that we're going to have to consider 04:09 and think about as we discuss about this. 04:12 Yeah, that's a really good point you know, 04:14 something we have to think about in terms of structurally, 04:16 and you know, changing the environment at church. 04:18 There are some people who want to come to church 04:20 just to feel safe, and to feel 04:22 that I want to talk about any issues, 04:24 maybe that's why they came there. 04:26 And when you do discuss these, things, 04:27 it makes them feel very uncomfortable 04:29 because they're not used to expressing how they truly feel, 04:32 or their struggles are going through. 04:35 So, yeah, we may have to, there may be some people 04:38 who just won't be able to handle this. 04:39 You know, but something we have to ask ourselves 04:42 if we really want to create this openness 04:44 are we okay with the doing. 04:46 I think it's unfortunate, you know, 04:47 some people will be lost. 04:48 You don't want them to leave. Right. 04:50 But the truth about change is that, 04:52 there's always that risk factor. 04:53 You know, when God decided to change our path 04:57 and give us salvation, He knew that, you know, 05:00 the risk is not everybody will accept salvation. 05:03 I think we have a responsibility 05:04 as a church though to do what is right. 05:06 And I think oftentimes, we're motivated by security. 05:09 You know, will the highest tithe payer leave. 05:12 You know, what I'm saying. 05:14 Will those in positions who we know 05:15 keep the day to day ins and out of the church going, 05:18 would they leave. 05:19 But I think that if you really trust God, 05:21 that the change can actually benefit you, 05:23 especially if you know you do, what you're doing is right. 05:25 You know then God will give you the real fruit in the end. 05:28 In my experience, some people have left. 05:30 And other people have taken their places, 05:32 other people stepped up, 05:33 and things have actually gotten better. 05:35 Okay. 05:36 Can we talk a little more about what this openness looks like? 05:37 What's an ideal? 05:39 How would it look like in a church? 05:40 Want to tackle that Hill-Morales and Xavier. 05:42 I think that one, one aspect of the openness is. 05:48 It's like a family atmosphere. 05:50 And in families, you don't always get along. 05:53 But at the end of the day, you work through your issues. 05:57 And I think that, that is something 05:59 that we should work towards 06:01 within our churches where you know what? 06:03 Sometimes no, we might not see eye to eye. 06:06 But if I come to you with an issue, 06:08 I know that at the end of the day, 06:10 we're going to work through. 06:12 And you're going to help me, I'm going to help you. 06:14 And we'll all, you know, we would all have grown 06:18 as a result of the encounter. 06:21 And I think too often we treat church, you know, 06:25 when it comes to that openness factor. 06:27 We were too exclusive at times, so there's a fear. 06:31 You know, we treat it like a Club Med. 06:33 You have to have a membership to get in, you know, 06:36 and I think that that mentality has more done 06:40 more to our detriment than our benefit. 06:42 You know, realizing that, you know, when you, 06:43 when you're sick, you know, 06:45 we often attribute hospital to church. 06:48 You know, you're sick, you go there to get healthy. 06:51 You know, I think a lot of times we just we, 06:54 we want to discard people or even worship. 06:58 We feel that is somebody is worse than us, 07:00 we want to put them in isolation 07:02 or a cancer ward. 07:04 You know with or a hospice because, 07:06 they're just worse than we are. 07:07 And I think creating that openness is realizing that 07:10 we're just as broken as anybody else. 07:13 And I think that, that takes a lot of prayer, 07:15 and a lot of guts to, to come to that realization 07:17 in order to come together, 07:20 and be able to deal with each other's brokenness. 07:22 Sure. 07:23 Yeah, I totally agree with that. 07:25 You know, I think that some things that you know, 07:26 helped me to kind of hope, 07:28 help promote the openness in my church 07:31 has been just trying to preach about it, 07:33 you know as a pastor. 07:35 You know, challenging pastors 07:36 actually begin to talk about this, 07:37 Sabbath school, you need to discuss it 07:39 don't shy away from it. 07:40 Even AYS you know, 07:42 programs to be able to talk about the subject of sex 07:45 or even just sin in general you know, 07:46 how we're struggling with these things. 07:48 Have breakout groups you know, small groups in the church 07:50 that meet regularly at houses and stuff. 07:52 Bible studies that touch on the subject of sin. 07:54 Well, other times you want to talk 07:56 about the doctrines and stuff. 07:57 We don't, don't want to talk about the root issue. 07:58 How it can really live up to these things. 08:01 And what it's taking my real, real everyday life, you know. 08:03 And also as leaders, you know, a lot of us are leaders. 08:07 And those who are viewing who are leaders, 08:08 we have to be brave enough to go, 08:10 come out and say ourselves. 08:11 What we have trouble with, and even sometimes 08:13 what we're struggling with. 08:15 Because even on this program, we've been very vulnerable, 08:17 I know I have, you know in sharing some things, 08:20 that you know, maybe I wouldn't be comfortable sharing before. 08:22 But I recognize that no one is perfect, 08:25 and everyone is struggling. 08:26 And so to think that 08:27 nobody else is going to be going through it only I did 08:29 is pretty arrogant of me and naive and so, 08:31 why not discuss it so that exposes the devil 08:33 and exposes his tricks. 08:35 And we can kind of discuss 08:36 how to get over these things together. 08:39 Now, the fear in that is when I do express 08:43 what I'm doing and what I'm saying. 08:44 I know for me, I've always felt this way of, you know, 08:46 even as I say this, I'm like 08:47 kind of scared about preaching and saying 08:49 what I've done, where God's taken me from 08:51 is because people will look at you and say, 08:53 "Oh man, you know, look what you did, you know." 08:56 And that's always the fear, right? 08:57 If I share what I'm going through, 08:59 maybe it's too much. 09:01 And you know, the young, the older people I'm sorry 09:03 in our churches have a responsibility as well 09:07 to the younger ones. 09:08 If you have been through something, 09:11 you have experienced, you know, 09:13 you can teach from that experience and that lesson. 09:18 So, and that goes back to the family aspect 09:21 that I was talking about, you know, here a while ago. 09:23 Yeah, I think it's, I'm glad you brought that up because, 09:25 it seems like there's always something 09:26 that they have forgotten you know. 09:27 That they did. 09:29 Yeah, I mean, you know, you were back there too. 09:30 And, come on, you should be the main ones 09:32 to lead out in this discussion 09:34 about what not to do and how to get through. 09:38 I think it also has to do a lot with, with being balanced. 09:41 You know, I think a lot of guys 09:43 share their past for facts sake. 09:46 You know, they want to preach a sermon, 09:47 a kind of wow for everybody, 09:48 it will get them on the edge of their seat, 09:50 so they come over. 09:51 But, you know, I struggled with XYZ. 09:52 But then that's kind of all they share. 09:54 You know, the thing about organizational change 09:56 is not just to educate people on what the change should be, 09:58 but also to share the vision of where to go, 10:01 go to now that you have, you know, 10:03 or try to make the change. 10:04 So, it's not just about what's our issue, 10:06 what's our problem, let's be vulnerable. 10:08 But now let's, you know, talk about where we can go. 10:12 You know, so I don't want to just tell you my faults. 10:14 I also want to share the vision I have. 10:17 We talk about, you know, changing the culture. 10:19 You can't just come in and change it and say, 10:21 this is what we want to do. 10:22 You know, what I do is, you know, 10:23 start with my leaders, and kind of infuse what I'm-- 10:26 You know, while I'm teaching with them. 10:28 So about a time it becomes just the whole church. 10:30 The key people in my congregation 10:32 who have influence 10:33 are also on board with the change that that, 10:35 that we need to make in the church so. 10:37 Yeah, yeah that's important. 10:39 I want to kind of add on to what Kim and both, 10:41 and Kory is saying. 10:42 When it comes to openness, there also needs to be honesty. 10:46 And honesty is being able to say, 10:49 "I don't know fully of what you're going through. 10:52 I don't really have a clear cut answer." 10:55 We do more harm when we try to give these 10:59 half baked answers or well, 11:00 just do this and you'll be better or just that. 11:03 But with that honesty, I'd also add 11:05 that you need to be willing to go along 11:09 on that journey with the person. 11:10 Find out what can be done. 11:12 Don't just say, I'll pray for you than walk away. 11:15 Never think about them, 11:17 never wonder what's going to happen. 11:18 I should say, "Okay, I've heard what you said, 11:20 I hear that you have to struggle. 11:22 Let me see what I can do based on what God is telling me to do 11:26 to help you, so that you won't get stuck with this forever, 11:29 but you can start progressing." 11:31 Yeah, that's good. 11:33 I think to the word vulnerability is very scary 11:37 for a lot of people you know. 11:38 Vulnerable means, I'm letting down my God, 11:40 I'm letting people in. 11:42 And I think what vulnerability is, 11:45 it's definitely a culture shock. 11:46 No matter what culture you're in, 11:48 what environment you're bringing it into but, you know, 11:51 creating that environment of openness 11:54 requires a lot of work. 11:56 Requires people to be vulnerable 11:57 and I think the best way is to lead by example. 12:00 You know, to lead by example and create that environment 12:03 where you remove. 12:05 You remove the judgmental side of things. 12:07 You know, you're able to talk to, 12:10 you know talk to each other, 12:11 maybe not in as a church as a whole, 12:13 maybe you start small and work your way out. 12:15 But remove the judgmental facet of, you know, 12:18 my sin is greater than your sin or your sin. 12:20 You know, we look for comfort. 12:22 We really, where we are in a-- 12:24 We have a epidemic of denial you know. 12:26 We want to deny that we went through this one. 12:28 And it's there's a lot of trauma in the church 12:31 that a lot of people refused to deal with. 12:33 It's that trauma that's hindering us 12:35 from creating that environment openness. 12:37 Yeah, it is, it does hinder 12:39 into the church in a lot of ways, 12:41 because not only is this what you should, you know, 12:43 bring out about sexual sins, but just everything in general, 12:46 because a lot of times, you know, 12:48 we always hear about testimonies how you should, 12:50 you know, give a testimony. 12:52 You know, you don't glorify the past. 12:53 You know, you can talk what you did in the past 12:55 but you talk more about what's going on in the present, 12:58 where you hope to get to in the future. 12:59 A lot of times of course, 13:00 and we talk about those people who, 13:02 they bring up the past so much whatever the case may be. 13:04 I think that, yeah, you still don't glorify the past. 13:07 But, please let's talk a little more about 13:09 the practicality of the struggle 13:11 that you had to go through 13:12 to get to the present, you know. 13:14 Because a lot of time you say, okay, I was, 13:15 I was there and now look where I'm now, you know what. 13:17 Well, how did you get there, you know. 13:19 And I think we, we don't do enough 13:21 of really discussing the house you know, 13:23 that it is tough you know, 13:25 and I'll say for me just being practical right now. 13:27 You know, it is hard. 13:29 You know, it took me a lot to get to where I'm at now. 13:32 And I've had like, I've had to go to counselors, 13:34 I've had to go to, to you know to meetings or whatnot. 13:38 You know, I've had to talk to my parents. 13:41 I've had to a lot of different things 13:42 in order to really get to the place I am now. 13:44 I had to pray a lot, fast a lot, 13:46 you know, struggle. 13:48 You know tears and all these things that took. 13:50 But a lot of those things I had to do, 13:52 it took place outside of the church. 13:55 You know, it wasn't that I did not. 13:57 I did, I really didn't feel safe enough to go to the church 14:00 and do those type of things in the church. 14:02 Well, I think we got to be more intentional about it as well. 14:05 You know, not just making change 14:06 but actually implementing change. 14:08 You know, making a plan 14:09 and then sticking to that plan saying listen. 14:11 We actually want to focus on these things. 14:13 You know, what I'm saying have program before. 14:15 You know, I know at my church, 14:17 we did a whole month on just family issues. 14:19 You know, marriage, relationship, dating, 14:21 sex and actually you know, doing pure, 14:23 doing Pure Choices actually helped a lot in that process. 14:26 But we made sure that we addressed certain things, 14:29 like I preached the whole sermon just homo-sex. 14:31 You know, and it kind of creates that environment 14:33 that talking about sex in church is okay, you know. 14:38 Yeah, that's good. 14:40 So how, how do you act though if you have, you know, 14:44 being open about what you're going through 14:45 and everybody in the church knows 14:47 what you've gone through, they know, 14:48 know the dark secrets, you know. 14:50 And not of course, you got to be careful what you share 14:52 with anyone that you know. 14:55 You know, how, how should you-- How should you act, 14:57 or how should you even treat a person like that, you know, 15:00 in if they have divorce what they would they have done. 15:03 You know, how should they act and how we should treat them. 15:06 My church for example. 15:08 I'm very transparent with them. 15:10 And they know a lot of things about me 15:11 that I've been through. 15:13 The members that I work with, they embrace me. 15:16 We share our brokenness together. 15:17 You know, we have an understanding that, 15:19 you know, there's your privacy and things like that. 15:22 But at the same time, you know, I love where I'm at 15:25 because of that factor, because you can be, you know, 15:29 you can be open about who you are 15:31 and not only do they embrace you 15:32 but they pray with you to bring that healing, 15:35 to help you, to nurture you. 15:37 And that's the biggest fact, you know, 15:40 with this whole aspect of they know your business or so, 15:44 you know, almost all your business but, 15:45 are you creating this nurturing environment for it, you know. 15:48 And that's the one thing that I like about the church 15:50 that I'm at that they nurture me into better health. 15:53 And that's beautiful, that's 15:54 how a church really should be, right? 15:56 Be able to nurture and accept. 15:57 Do you want to add something to that? 15:59 Sure, I think also 16:01 for those of us who might be, you know, 16:03 in churches and see a need if there is no group 16:09 or no support system, you can start one. 16:13 I think one of the-- 16:15 Kory was talking about organizational change. 16:17 I know what I'm thinking about the classroom 16:19 and changing the culture of the classroom or school. 16:22 You have to realize that 16:24 everyone is not going to be on board all at once. 16:27 Very often, you have to sell the vision. 16:29 And for those who buy into the vision, 16:31 you move forward with those individuals. 16:34 So, for those of us like I said who see a need 16:38 maybe going one on one and speaking to people, 16:40 because the other thing that makes 16:43 creating culture change 16:47 possible is establishing relationships 16:51 and genuine relationships. 16:53 So that people feel okay, like I can come to you, 16:56 and you're not just the pastor. 16:58 But I know that you have my best interests at heart. 17:00 And I can come to you, 17:01 and it's not going to go to sister such and such 17:04 or brother such and such after we speak. 17:06 Yeah, you know, and that's also 17:07 with everyone being open because, 17:09 hey, if it's just one person saying all their stuff 17:12 to somebody in a small group environment, 17:14 nobody else is saying, it's kind of like, 17:15 oh, you know man. 17:17 You haven't said anything either. 17:19 So, so now let's talk a little bit about it-- 17:22 Okay, Brittany, go ahead. 17:24 Okay, I was going to say based on my experiences of talking 17:28 to Christian women who have sexual addictions. 17:31 The issue of being open in church is people hear 17:37 and they say okay, but they don't know 17:40 how to move forward as and then they said, 17:42 "Okay, I spoke to this person, 17:44 but I'm still struggling because 17:46 they don't check up on me. 17:47 They said, they would be my accountability partner, 17:49 but they don't do it. 17:50 They said, they would help us, but they don't do it." 17:52 So, we need to have that sort of dedication of, okay, 17:57 we're talking about this right now, 17:59 someone's listening and they're saying, 18:00 "Okay, this sounds good." 18:01 But can you actually move forward and actually do it. 18:05 Because it hurts more to be vulnerable 18:08 come out and say this. 18:10 And everybody knows it but no one is helping. 18:12 Yeah, that's good. 18:14 And I think just to piggyback on that. 18:16 There are you know, there are people 18:18 going through some real issues. 18:20 And I think that as leaders in our church, 18:23 if we find out about or hear about 18:26 some of these issues and we know that 18:28 we cannot handle them, do not pretend you can. 18:32 There are trained professionals who deal with these situations, 18:36 and unfortunately in our culture, 18:38 it's not very popular to go to therapy, 18:40 and it's not very popular to seek help outside. 18:44 But if it is necessary I think that if changes to come about, 18:48 those necessary steps need to take place. 18:51 Here and you have to you know, 18:52 we're going to try to go to next about loving. 18:54 Loving those who are going through issues, you know. 18:57 Hating the sin but loving the sinner. 18:59 I know that's kind of a phrase 19:01 that we throw around a lot but... 19:02 You know, knowing that I still love you 19:05 and if you are going through something in the church, 19:08 remember the church not just the building, 19:10 it's just not an organization, a church or people 19:13 who are struggling really together, 19:15 striving to be like Jesus. 19:16 And so, if you're hurting, I'm hurting as well. 19:20 And so, if I'm not checking on you, 19:22 maybe because I'm not empathizing with your hurt. 19:24 I'm not feeling the same pain which you're feeling. 19:26 And I'm just thinking about what I'm going through. 19:27 There's so much of that in the church, 19:29 so much selfishness of I'm counter my life, my bubble, 19:32 my click, my circle. 19:33 And I'm not worried about what's happening with you, 19:35 you know, but that has to stop. 19:36 That's not how I think Jesus would want our churches to be. 19:39 Xavier in and then I'll pass it. 19:41 I think it takes a few steps. 19:42 Number one, you know, the person has to acknowledge 19:44 that they want to change. 19:46 You can't, you know, you can't change 19:47 whoever doesn't want to change. 19:48 You know, what I mean. 19:50 The other aspect is understanding that 19:52 if they want to change this like 19:53 this is a sinful behavior that I'm doing, 19:54 that I want to get rid of. 19:56 Understand that that behavior does not make-- 19:59 That's not who they are. 20:01 Thus who what they're choosing to do but that's not who makes, 20:04 what makes them tick, that's not who they are as a whole, 20:06 as a person character wise. 20:08 And that's where you know, 20:10 you remove and understand that 20:11 whatever they're trying to get rid off, they really. 20:13 You need to help them to work on that, 20:15 and still love them because they haven't changed, 20:18 they're the same person then. 20:19 They got a good heart, they're just struggling with something 20:21 that they want to get rid off. 20:22 Yeah, amen 20:24 I think the big issue with coming out is acceptance. 20:27 And that's what people want is acceptance 20:29 but I think that we have a confused 20:32 definitions of acceptance and especially 20:34 with the whole homosexual conversation 20:37 'cause we do sexual sin but, you know, 20:39 people don't come to church or afraid to come to church 20:41 where they think we won't be accepted. 20:43 Now, if you come to my church, you're homosexual 20:45 I will accept you but I will not condone what you do, 20:49 and that should to be our, you know, 20:51 our philosophy for sin in general. 20:53 God accepts you as you are, God does not accept sin. 20:57 The reason he wants you to come 20:59 because he's trying to remove sin. 21:00 You know, what I'm saying. 21:01 I love the Apostle Paul because and I think maybe this is what 21:04 we got to do for openness as well. 21:06 Just kind of jumped to it, the Apostle Paul, 21:07 when he writes his litters, 21:09 he writes to people who are messed up. 21:10 He usually writes because they've written to him 21:12 telling him the problems. 21:14 You know, and he's able in the same letter to say, 21:16 there's somebody in here sleeping with his, 21:18 with his father's wife 21:20 and call out all the mess and in the same book he says, 21:24 but you are saint of God, 21:26 you have been baptized into Christ, 21:27 you have been raised into newness of life with him. 21:30 So, he kind of, he kind of calls out their sin 21:33 but he lets them know that, even with those sins, 21:35 in Christ God still considers you as long as you give it, 21:39 give it over to him. 21:40 And you know, give it over may not say, 21:42 I'm gonna change today, 21:43 but as long as I allow God to work out the process, 21:45 God considers you as saved 21:48 and raised a newness in on life. 21:50 And we have to have that, that atmosphere, 21:52 we treat people that way. 21:53 Yeah, you know, that person may be homosexual. 21:55 You know, they may be struggling with it, 21:57 they may be trying to stop. 21:58 But I'm going to treat you as if you've already overcome it. 22:00 Amen. 22:01 I love that, you know, and I use this imagery of, you know, 22:03 Jesus is speaking us up, His Grace is what, 22:06 is what covers us, protects us from the condemnation 22:08 but it also is fixing us up. 22:10 And I use the imagery of, you know, let's say Kimberly, 22:12 you're the sinner, you know, 22:14 and I can represent Jesus in this illustration. 22:16 Of course, yes. 22:18 And let's say, you know, 22:20 the law is condemning me from this side, 22:22 but when it looks at me. 22:23 It sees Jesus who's in the way, 22:26 but Jesus is not just standing here, 22:27 facing the walls, He's actually facing me 22:29 and fixing me up, 22:30 and working out my sins out of me, you know, 22:33 and that's what, you know, 22:35 really it's all about the cleansing, 22:36 not just forgiving of your sins 22:38 but the cleansing of you, you know. 22:39 And so that's where it really have to be 22:41 if we're the hands of your Jesus in the church, 22:44 we are the clean. 22:46 What God is using to clean up people in the church 22:50 and to get rid of the sin. 22:51 And, that's why I love it, and you know, 22:53 that that has to be our understanding. 22:56 We often like to think about the pretty picture of 22:58 people are just perfect people now. 23:00 But there will be people, who will come to our church 23:05 and they want to know, how can I deal with these, 23:07 these feelings I have towards the same sex. 23:10 What do I do when I'm, you know, 23:12 constantly looking at pornography 23:14 and I can't stop? 23:15 You know, what I do I'm addicted to sex, you know? 23:16 These will be questions that we have to know how to address. 23:19 You know, if I could just real quick. 23:22 What I love about Christ is His methods meant. 23:24 He is so different from ours. 23:26 When we think about coming to Christ, 23:28 we really think about coming for cleaning, 23:30 coming to be changed. 23:32 Imagine Jesus calls His disciples 23:34 and not one time does He address their faults. 23:36 He never from the beginning says, 23:39 "I will make you fishers of men, 23:40 if you get rid of XYZ." 23:42 He says, "Come to me, 23:43 I will make you fishers of men." 23:45 And as they walk with Him, slowly but surely, 23:48 He begins to pour into them, what He knows is the best, 23:51 better thing to do. 23:52 You know, our churches are so flat tire 23:55 because we don't take that first step of saying, 23:57 listen just come and follow me. 23:59 You know, what I'm saying. 24:00 Even as Paul says, "Follow me, as I follow Christ. 24:02 So, that I can speak into you, I can show you 24:05 what fishers of men actually looks like." 24:07 And the great news that when Jesus dies, 24:08 and rises again, and leaves, 24:10 they are still not perfect, they are still messed up, 24:13 and yet He still trust 24:14 the birth of a brand new church to them. 24:17 You know, knowing that if they just stays on the path, 24:19 that he will eventually take out of them 24:21 the things that He needs to. 24:22 But only a person who is safe, only a person who is safe 24:28 can make that claim. 24:30 Because you know what you're capable of doing, 24:33 and you see where you want to go which was you know, 24:37 the case with Christ. 24:38 So he could say, "Just follow me, 24:40 and I will do the work." 24:43 Often times we say, "Yes, follow me." 24:46 But then the people come, 24:49 and how do we treat them when they come. 24:51 We think that's it. 24:52 Like you just stops when... You know so. 24:54 And that's and I love that you all are saying 24:56 because I always tell people who are struggling 24:58 if they should get baptized or not. 25:00 I say listen. 25:01 "You know, yeah, I know you're not perfect right now, 25:03 but when do you take a bath. 25:05 You take a bath, when you are clean 25:07 or take a bath when your dirty, you know?" 25:09 You have to come to the water 25:10 when you know that you're messed up. 25:12 That's when He wants you, because when you accept Him, 25:15 He's gonna fix you up. 25:16 That's the power of the spirit, you know. 25:18 And so, if our church is really preaching this, 25:20 which is really righteous by faith 25:22 that we truly believe this, 25:23 then we're going to have an environment for say, 25:25 "Hey, you're here. 25:26 Let's begin the process that Christ wants you to have." 25:30 And if we don't have an environment open for that, 25:33 then it stunts the growth. 25:35 I think, well, I'm sorry but... 25:36 I was not gonna say perfection has no need of a Savior, 25:40 so I think where we fall short as a church, 25:43 and why we have such a problem dealing with 25:46 that maybe the more of egregious sense, 25:47 the homosexuality is because, 25:49 some of the people in church 25:50 aren't really sure of their salvation either. 25:53 And it's hard to, it's hard to pull people in who are sick. 25:57 You know, who are dealing with things 25:58 you consider worse in your things 26:00 if you don't have the confidence of knowing 26:02 that you're safe in Christ yourself. 26:05 I wanted to be able to talk some about church discipline. 26:08 I don't think we have too much time, maybe real quick. 26:09 How you all feel, church discipline something 26:11 that we should still administer, 26:12 and how can we do it 26:14 if we're to print this openness in church, 26:16 because people will need to be disciplined at some time so. 26:19 Yeah, we need to remember that church discipline 26:21 is supposed to be done in love. 26:23 And every time I've seen church discipline, 26:25 it's just been okay, you're now you're out of the church. 26:28 Yeah, great that's it. 26:30 If we're going to do it, 26:32 we need to be able to communicate 26:33 with the person, 26:34 that is going to be discipline and say, 26:36 this is what's happening, this is why it's happening, 26:38 and move from there and say, 26:39 "We're going to try to figure out 26:41 how to help you get better versus 26:43 just saying you're out of the church. 26:44 Good bye." 26:46 Yeah, there has to be a plan to restore, 26:48 redeem the sinner, exactly. 26:50 Do you want to add something that real quick for 30 seconds? 26:53 No, we did it on that. 26:54 I think, she might have said it. 26:55 I was going to say though, it's just like you know, 26:57 whole point of incarceration prison 27:00 is supposed to be to fix. 27:02 You know, and prison messes up because it sends 27:04 prisons back out same mentality. 27:06 You know, we pull people in, 27:08 we're supposed to reconcile them. 27:10 The whole point of it is reform. 27:12 The point is not to condemn. 27:14 It's, you know, in just point out the flaws. 27:16 It's to point you towards change. 27:17 Yeah. 27:18 Yeah, I like that, I guess that's where we'll end it. 27:20 You know, we have to think 27:21 critically about this thing as church members. 27:23 How can we actually deal with those, 27:25 who are struggling in the church? 27:26 Maybe, you know, you're the one saying, 27:28 "I'm good, I'm perfect." 27:30 But I probably dare you to think about 27:31 what you're really struggling with. 27:33 There are some things that you also have to work through 27:35 and there are people in your church 27:36 that are struggling as well. 27:38 There has to be something that we can do as a church, 27:41 as a people to create this environment of openness. 27:44 So, please start that discussion 27:46 and always remember, 27:48 at the end of day make pure choices. 27:49 God bless. 27:51 We had a good time talking today. |
Revised 2016-04-11