Participants: Ron Woolsey (Host), Danielle Harrison
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000106A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:41 Welcome to Pure Choices. 00:43 I'm Ron Woolsey, one of the co-founders 00:45 of Coming Out Ministries. 00:47 And today, with me is Danielle Harrison, 00:51 our newest member of Coming Out Ministries. 00:53 She has come to us from an alternative lifestyle 00:57 like the rest of us have. 00:59 And we're just really happy to have you here 01:01 with us today, Danielle. 01:03 Amen, Ron. 01:04 I'm so glad to be here, thanks for the privilege. 01:06 I know, in the last couple of years, 01:09 we've gotten to know each other pretty well, 01:11 and we've worked together as a team in many places. 01:14 And I just want to let you know, 01:15 Danielle has a fascinating conversion story. 01:19 We're going to delve into that today. 01:23 And I want to ask, when in your life, Danielle, 01:26 did you first realize that same sex attraction 01:29 was a part of your thought processes? 01:33 Well, it was actually very early on in life. 01:36 My parents separated when I was about six years old. 01:39 And we moved into a neighboring town 01:42 and we were living 01:43 in a low-income housing development. 01:45 And it was there that I met a young girl, 01:47 she was living down the street, and she was being 01:49 sexually abused by someone in her life. 01:52 And so she was learning things about her body 01:54 that she shouldn't have known and she started sharing 01:57 those things with me. 01:58 And so I don't really know if the experience came 02:02 before the attraction or if the attraction came 02:04 before the experience, but I know 02:06 that it began at a very young age, 02:09 probably around seven, the experiences 02:11 of interacting sexually with the same sex. 02:14 So I know that those experiences 02:18 really strongly colored my thoughts 02:20 and my feelings throughout my life after that. 02:24 So how did you feel about these interactions 02:27 with this person? 02:30 Well, at first, it was really the attention 02:33 and the affection that I was most drawn to, 02:37 that I appreciated the most. 02:40 And then afterwards, it really... 02:42 the extreme pleasure from the experience drove me 02:46 into strong addiction to those feelings 02:52 and those experiences. 02:54 And so at first, that was kind of my relationship with it, 02:59 at first, it was good, but it didn't take very long 03:02 for it to have a negative side 03:05 because there was a lot of guilt 03:06 and there was a lot of shame and confusion that came 03:10 into my heart as a little girl experiencing these things. 03:15 You know, when... 03:19 For example, at our home, we have horses. 03:22 And when a new one comes along, 03:25 we imprint the foal as soon as it is born. 03:29 We handle it so it gets used to human smell, taste... 03:34 Not taste but human smell and feel and sounds 03:38 and all of these things. 03:40 And so when things like this happen early on in life, 03:45 to me, it's kind of like the imprinting process. 03:48 And so I'm wondering what kind of effect 03:50 did this have on you later in life. 03:52 Did it have any effects in your later life? 03:57 Sure. 03:58 Well, the effect started very soon afterwards 04:01 because I was learning these things about my body 04:03 that I shouldn't have known. 04:04 Masturbation soon became an addiction. 04:06 And this was a stronghold addiction in my life 04:08 for many years until I ended up 04:10 giving my heart to Jesus. 04:13 And I had a lot of shyness and timidity around girls 04:19 because I had attractions to them. 04:22 And so I was more awkward and shy around the girls 04:26 and more open and comfortable with the boys. 04:29 And I think because of the way that media impresses us 04:32 that we have to be interacting 04:34 with the opposite sex a certain way, 04:36 especially as girls, I became very flirtatious 04:41 with the boys at a young age also. 04:45 So there was this dynamic of having these 04:47 sexual experiences with the girls 04:49 and then having this flirtatious air towards 04:50 the boys, so I started interacting sexually 04:54 with boyfriends also at pretty young age, 04:58 I was about 14 years old. 05:00 I came out as bisexual when I was 15, 05:04 and then I'd lost my virginity by the time I was 16 years old. 05:09 So, you know, these young experiences 05:14 really sprung me, it was a spring board really, 05:18 into other sexual sins later on down the road. 05:23 Yeah, okay so as you embraced being bisexual 05:27 and this is what I'm hearing you say 05:29 that you were attracted to both boys and girls 05:33 and then you just kind of embraced that identity. 05:39 So did you just label yourself as bisexual? 05:44 How did you... Where did you go from there? 05:48 Well, yeah, I think that my sexuality really 05:51 was a big part of my identity in different ways 05:56 at different times in my journey. 05:59 At first, it was just kind of a... 06:04 it was freeing to start to identify myself in the ways 06:10 that I had always felt. 06:13 And so there was a sense of liberation that came along. 06:18 And there was also a level of, I think, you know, 06:22 attention that came along with it as well. 06:25 After some time went on though, it wasn't so much about 06:31 what other people thought, it was more about being myself. 06:35 And that was the biggest liberating part, 06:38 I just wanted to be who I was. 06:42 And then after a time, you know, 06:45 I was in relationships with men and women 06:49 and sometimes couples and all kinds 06:51 of highly complicated relationships for about 06:53 10 years of my life, very codependent, 06:56 very complicated and confusing relationships. 07:00 And at the end of this journey, eventually, 07:04 I came to really identify as a lesbian 07:09 because I thought this whole bisexual thing, 07:11 obviously, isn't really working. 07:14 And as I embraced calling myself a lesbian 07:19 and identifying as a lesbian, this really pushed 07:22 the God of the Bible and the God that I had read 07:28 about in the Bible away from me even further. 07:30 It really estranged me from God because I had known 07:34 that there were certain things in the Bible that talked about 07:38 homosexuality not being acceptable, 07:40 I had never read those things on my own, 07:42 so I didn't really know where that was 07:44 and how to navigate that. 07:45 But I knew that it wasn't acceptable to be Christian 07:48 and to be gay, and so as I labeled myself 07:53 as a lesbian, I thought, well, there's no option 07:56 of being a Christian now. 07:59 So as you were growing up and God was not really 08:02 a part of your life, at this point, 08:06 you're just looking to yourself to find your way. 08:09 It kind of reminds me of the illustration of a ship 08:14 at sea without an anchor, 08:15 without a sail that's kind of being tossed about. 08:19 I mean, did you feel kind of this way 08:21 that you're just constantly exploring, 08:23 trying to find yourself? 08:25 Yeah, I really was. I was. 08:27 And like I said, there was a lot of confusion 08:29 when I was younger. 08:31 And there was a lot of confusion also 08:33 when I was older. 08:34 I think it just came with the territory of really... 08:39 when you lose the borders that God has placed on sexuality, 08:43 and there are no borders, it's really hard to feel 08:49 any stability in any kind of relationship. 08:52 And when your sexuality is bound up so much 08:55 in your identity, it's hard to find stability 08:58 in your identity as well. 09:00 Well, did you ever have a relationship with God? 09:04 And if so, how did this aspect of your life impact that 09:11 relationship that you had had with God. 09:14 I mean, you did, I think I've heard you say, 09:17 in your youth, in your younger years, 09:19 you did have a relationship with God. 09:21 Yeah, well, when I was nine years old, 09:24 I was baptized. 09:25 I had been attending church frequently 09:28 with a family friend for many years 09:31 as I was younger, and eventually, 09:33 the pastor sat us down and he said, 09:35 "Do you believe in Jesus? 09:36 Do you want him to be your savior?" 09:38 And I said, "Yes." But I really... 09:40 I didn't have a relationship with Him at that time, 09:41 I didn't read the Bible or have an active prayer life 09:44 or anything like that, so I was baptized, 09:46 but it was just what you do when you love Jesus. 09:49 When I got a little bit older, when I was about 12, 09:53 I moved in next door to an Adventist family. 09:56 And a few years later, we eventually started 09:59 having Bible studies at our house on Friday night. 10:01 My sister was studying with one of their sons. 10:05 And so I was here exposed to Adventism. 10:09 But again, I really didn't have a relationship with Jesus. 10:13 And I looked at my life and I looked at my inability 10:17 to do what I thought was right, and I looked at the problems 10:21 in my life, and I blamed those all on God. 10:24 At what point was this that you were having 10:27 these Bible studies? 10:28 I mean, was this back earlier 10:31 before you went into the bisexual life? 10:33 It was. 10:34 It was probably about 13, 14 years old. 10:37 And so I came out as bisexual when I was about 15. 10:41 And so yeah, I really was just... 10:45 I was blaming God, and I walked out into the world 10:49 because God wasn't giving me 10:50 what I wanted really, the contentment. 10:54 And so I went out into the world 10:55 searching for contentment in the things of the world. 10:58 And I realized very quickly, well, within a few years 11:02 of sowing my wild oats and just being out in the world 11:07 and seeing what it offered, 11:08 I came to a very dark and scary place and I realized 11:12 that those things that I was searching for, 11:14 contentment and solace, were just broken cisterns, 11:16 that they were empty, 11:18 and they didn't have anything to offer me. 11:20 I would go to them. 11:21 And at first, they would feel good 11:23 and they would be stimulating, but then it would melt away 11:27 and I would just be left even more empty 11:29 and more vacant afterwards. 11:32 And like I said, I felt more and more estranged from God 11:35 as I walked out into this wilderness, you know, 11:40 and I started to gravitate 11:42 towards alternative spirituality, 11:46 just like I was gravitating towards 11:48 alternative sexuality, the same became 11:51 true for my spirituality 11:52 because I could relate easier to women, 11:55 I related to God more as a woman, 11:57 and I started reading into a lot of different religions 12:00 of the world and new age and all of that. 12:03 Can you elaborate, just a little bit, 12:05 about the different religions that you were exploring? 12:10 Sure. 12:11 Well, I was really interested in Wiccanism, 12:13 which is the religion of witchcraft. 12:15 I was also reading into Native Americans spirituality, 12:20 different forms of animal speak 12:22 and nature worship and spirit worship and stuff. 12:25 And then I started getting into quantum mechanics, 12:27 quantum physics and stuff like that with the new age 12:30 and the energy healing and all of that. 12:32 Did this journey into the different religions, 12:35 did this effect how you saw yourself, 12:39 how you carried yourself, how you accessorized? 12:43 Yeah, sure. Your look? 12:45 You know, because I think it'd be important to share 12:49 just a little bit of this dark side 12:51 without being real graphic of course 12:53 but share just a little bit about 12:56 where these roads led you. 12:59 Yes, well, I really got involved heavily 13:02 in the city of Seattle with the rave scene 13:06 and the concert scene. 13:07 And this sucked me into the drugs 13:11 and everything that went along with it. 13:13 I got to the point where I was very... 13:16 I never really identified myself as punk or goth 13:19 or grunge or anything like that, 13:21 but you could just conglomerate all of those together. 13:24 However, anyone seeing the pictures would have 13:27 identified you as punk or grunge... 13:29 A conglomerate of those. Or Goth. 13:32 You know, my generation doesn't really 13:34 quite understand all of this. 13:36 But I have seen the pictures, and it's really amazing, 13:40 you know, where these side roads will take you. 13:42 Yeah. 13:44 And that was the phase that I was in right 13:45 before I started going into the alternative spirituality 13:48 because, you know, I was wearing devil horns 13:51 and writing satanic song lyrics and stuff on my skin 13:54 whenever I was out in that dark place, 13:58 but as I started turning towards 13:59 the alternative spirituality, 14:01 I started searching for the light. 14:04 And that was the biggest thing that really resonated with me 14:06 was the object lesson of light and darkness. 14:08 And I started to gravitate away from those darker things 14:12 and get into really searching for the light 14:16 and what that was. 14:17 And I referred to God as "the divine," 14:20 and I didn't know who He was but I was definitely searching. 14:23 Well, and those pathways in which you were going, 14:28 did they tend to lead you into more darkness 14:30 or do you think they led you towards the light? 14:33 Well, you know, I think that it was... 14:39 It's definitely a path that can lead to the darkness, 14:43 and it does. 14:44 That's the only place that it can go. 14:46 I often say that here I was, you know, 14:49 wanting to get to know God 14:51 and wanting to get off the drugs 14:53 and clean up my life and do better, 14:55 and so I was trying to get back on the straight path, 14:57 but I was just overcorrecting into the ditch 14:59 on the other side and going into 15:01 all of this alternative spirituality. 15:03 But while there is so much danger 15:07 in those religions because there's so much error 15:11 mingled with truth, I think at the same time, 15:14 God really reads the heart. 15:16 Exactly. 15:17 And He saw the sincerity of my heart. 15:19 And even though I was calling Him 15:20 by the wrong name and I was looking 15:22 for love in all the wrong places, 15:24 God honored those prayers that I was praying. 15:27 And He led me gently just as far as I was willing 15:31 to go along the path to bring me 15:35 one step closer to Him, 15:37 as I would allow Him to do that for me. 15:41 I think that's such an important point 15:42 that you make there that God knows the heart. 15:45 And even though you were looking in 15:46 all the wrong directions, what mattered to God, 15:49 this is what I'm seeing in your story, 15:51 what mattered to God was you were looking. 15:53 Mm-hm. 15:54 You were looking for truth, you were looking for light, 15:56 and He guided you through that and evidently out of that 16:03 because I think you came to a turning point. 16:06 Can you share with us the turning point of your life 16:09 where you turned away from your will 16:11 and then began to seek God's will? 16:13 Sure. 16:15 Well, as I was venturing through this journey of walking 16:21 with "the divine," God was revealing Himself 16:24 to me in little ways, and they were abstract ways 16:30 to my understanding now 16:32 because my mentality was so abstract. 16:34 And I believe, He met me where I was at. 16:38 But it was always pointing me back to Him. 16:41 And as He would reveal Himself to me through experiences, 16:44 conversations, acquaintances, and all these different things, 16:48 I was starting to see, even repetitive numbers, 16:52 there were a series of events that were happening. 16:56 And I was starting to see that there wasn't any such thing 17:00 as coincidence. 17:01 I was starting to really believe 17:03 that there was something going on 17:04 in the universe and something was trying 17:05 to get my attention. 17:07 And that was a huge part of the turning point, 17:10 and really, I understand and believe 17:13 and know now that that part of the journey 17:16 was a direct consequence of the prayers of my mother 17:22 and my sister and their congregations 17:24 who were earnestly praying for me. 17:26 And so that really began to shift me, I think, 17:31 towards desiring to understand spirituality. 17:34 And I ended up going 17:36 to an Adventist health institution, 17:39 I went out to the Black Hills Health & Education Center 17:41 in South Dakota, and I just expected 17:44 to be there for six months, working on the farm. 17:46 But as I was there, in the soil and working in the fields, 17:52 God started to speak to me. 17:55 And I started to see Him reflected in His creation. 17:58 And it was while I was there that God really started 18:02 to send powerful messages, illuminating the darkness 18:06 and illuminating the confusion and starting to show me 18:11 that I had been programmed from a young age to view life 18:14 the way that I did, 18:15 to view spirituality the way that I did, 18:17 and to view sexuality they way that I did. 18:19 And God, especially, did that for me through Dan Gabbert 18:22 who was the spiritual counselor there, 18:24 a number of other people who would speak 18:27 and study with me, 18:29 Chad and Foddy or Klusener, I think, were playing films. 18:32 And especially, Little Light Studios, 18:35 when Tom came out here and gave me some of their DVDs. 18:38 These were a lot of the things that were really shutting 18:41 the light of the deception onto my path. 18:45 And that was what really woke me up 18:47 and helped me to see that I needed to turn away 18:51 and walk in a different direction. 18:53 You know, this leads me to a question that comes to me 18:55 all the time. 18:57 And I'm going to ask you the same question 18:59 because it's really a fascinating question 19:02 and it shows the misunderstanding 19:04 of a lot of people about the plan of salvation. 19:07 When you accept Jesus, when He finds you 19:12 and brings you home and you accept him, 19:15 the question that comes to me is, 19:17 did all of those attractions just disappear? 19:19 Did He take it all away? 19:21 And I know what it was like in my story. 19:25 I want to hear how it was with you. 19:28 Did all of this just disappear as you came to Jesus? 19:33 Sure. 19:34 Well, there was a pivotal moment. 19:36 I was actually watching a documentary called 19:39 Magic Kingdom by Little Light Studios, 19:42 and it was through that humble little documentary 19:45 that no one ever would have imagined 19:46 that it would speak this to me was through this documentary 19:49 that God spoke to me and really showed me 19:52 that I had been programmed from a young age 19:56 and that it wasn't His plan for my life for me 19:59 to be a lesbian. 20:01 And I remember weeping after that night 20:04 and just realizing that I had to give my understanding 20:10 of my sexuality and the distraction 20:11 that sexual sin and sexual addiction 20:15 were to me, I had to give those things up. 20:17 And that was hard because, like I said, 20:19 my identity was so wrapped up in my sexuality. 20:24 And something shifted in my heart at that point. 20:29 When I started to see things from God's perspective, 20:33 then my desire for the things that went against His expressed 20:37 will started to melt away. 20:40 So it's a process. 20:41 You know, I think, in His mercy, 20:44 He put my mind on a different path. 20:48 Yes. 20:49 And He honored me in that sincere heart cry for victory 20:55 and a new direction in my life. 20:57 But I realized very, very quickly 20:59 that I had an important part to play in the equation, 21:02 that I had to become mindful of where my thoughts 21:04 were running, of where my eyes were looking. 21:07 I had a lot of bad habits of allowing my eyes 21:10 and my mind to wander in places they shouldn't go. 21:13 And so I had to become mindful of my thoughts, 21:17 and I had to start to guard the avenues of my soul, 21:21 you know, to just really guard the things 21:24 that came into my heart and my mind through my senses. 21:28 And as I started to really journey 21:31 on through this experience, you know, 21:34 it wasn't like the attractions never came back in 21:38 because they did at times. 21:40 But God was just trying to help me to see things 21:42 from his perspective on the process 21:45 just like he helped me to see them before. 21:49 There are still things that He's been teaching me 21:50 along the way, and there's still many things 21:52 that I'm sure that He will teach me. 21:56 And it has been a process. 21:58 And one of the things that has really helped me 22:01 is how God has helped me to relate to beauty differently 22:04 because, after a while, I would meet a person and I think, 22:11 "Wow, she's really beautiful, I really appreciate her." 22:14 And then I would start to think, "Oh, no!" 22:15 You know, "I can't like her, this isn't okay," 22:18 and, "what's wrong with me." 22:19 You know, it's easy to be hard on ourselves. 22:22 And, you know, I really believe that it was just 22:25 the Holy Spirit that said, "Danielle, God created beauty, 22:29 He created all the beauty in the world, 22:31 He created us to appreciate beauty, 22:32 He obviously appreciates beauty. 22:34 And it's not sinful for you to appreciate her character 22:38 and to see her as a beautiful part of God's creation. 22:42 But it's what you do with those thoughts that determine whether 22:45 or not it becomes sinful. 22:46 Are you going to dance around with those thoughts 22:48 or are you just going to say, 'Thank you, Lord, 22:50 for this person who You've created,' 22:52 and, you know, set down those thoughts 22:55 and not allow them to be cultivated 22:56 and to grow into something that is sinful." 22:58 This has been a really easy process, hasn't it? 23:01 Or has there been any difficulties along the way? 23:03 No. 23:04 Could you tell us what is the hardest part 23:06 about walking with Christ or is there a hard part? 23:11 There are hard parts. 23:14 There are hard moments and there are hard seasons. 23:18 It hasn't always been easy. 23:20 I think the hardest part for me in the Christian experience, 23:26 it takes perseverance. 23:28 You know, and I think the hardest parts 23:30 of my walk have been when God has really 23:33 opened up my heart to me and He has shown me 23:37 the shadows in the corners of my soul 23:40 and He has helped me to see my sin for what He sees it as, 23:45 for what it really is and how it's hurting me, 23:48 how it's hurting the people I love, 23:49 and how it's hurting Him. 23:51 And those seasons of my life have been the hardest 23:54 because I've seen myself in my sinfulness, 23:57 and it's been so convicting. 23:59 But at the same time, it's been beautiful too 24:03 because he's called me away from those things. 24:08 And so, you know, that is hard. 24:11 It's hard to lay down the things 24:14 that we're clinging to. 24:15 And I think the hardest part about walking away 24:17 from those things is that usually 24:19 when God comes in and says, 24:21 "Danielle, you know, these are the shadows, 24:22 these are things that I need you 24:25 to surrender to me," 24:27 those are usually the things that I'm clinging to 24:29 for a sense of identity or a sense of comfort 24:32 or a sense of solace. 24:33 And so it is hard, but... 24:37 So there is a flipside also. 24:40 There's great blessing even though there's a struggle. 24:42 Yes. There's a great blessing. 24:43 Yes, there are beautiful parts of even the darkest moments 24:47 of those challenging experiences 24:50 because it's developing a relationship with my creator, 24:56 a dynamic between Him and I where I see Him for who He is. 25:01 I see His character. 25:03 And by beholding, I become changed. 25:05 You know, I was changed into the image of the world 25:08 by beholding it. 25:09 But as I behold God more and more, 25:12 I am changed and my character has changed so much. 25:16 And seeing Himself show Himself strong in my life 25:21 and show Himself real has just been so powerful. 25:26 And learning how to claim His promises has made 25:30 that even clearer for me because it has given me 25:32 vivid opportunities to see Him work for me 25:35 and see Him move. 25:37 So much of your life was centered on self. 25:40 Do you now have a different center? 25:43 Yes. 25:45 I mean, as you were focused on self, 25:48 there's a lot of wandering and meandering down the way. 25:51 But now is there a new center and does He keep you on course? 25:54 Yes, there is a stable centering point, 25:58 and that is my daily time with my God. 26:04 And I realized very quickly, if I don't have that time, 26:08 everything starts to teeter and waver. 26:12 So my daily time with the Lord and service for Him, 26:15 I think, is pivotal. 26:18 You know, He's brought me into ministry, 26:21 He's given me a work to do for Him. 26:23 And that has been so necessary for me 26:27 not only to share Him 26:32 with other people but to stay on the journey myself 26:35 and to keep growing in Him. 26:38 In the last moment that we have here, 26:40 do you have a word of advice for someone that is wanting 26:46 to find a way out of the gay life 26:47 but may not know exactly how to walk away from it? 26:52 I think the most pivotal and important part is for us 26:55 to just acknowledge that we need help. 26:57 Yes. 26:59 You know, my sister told me that my mom told her friend 27:01 that she was praying for me, and I got angry, 27:04 I said, "I'm not broken. 27:05 I don't need you to fix me." Yeah. 27:07 Even though I saw that my life was a mess, 27:09 and I think that we just have to acknowledge 27:11 that we need help and just believe 27:14 that Christ is able. 27:16 And He will do everything else. Thank you so much, Danielle. 27:18 What a powerful testimony. 27:20 And, you know, testimonies like yours and mine 27:22 and the others in our group are quite often referred 27:25 to as extreme conversions. 27:28 But our extreme conversions really just reveal 27:31 an extreme God, His extreme love, 27:35 His extreme compassion, His extreme patience 27:37 and mercy, and His extreme power. 27:41 We want to thank you today for tuning in to Pure Choices, 27:45 and we invite you to join us again at another one 27:49 of the Pure Choices programs upcoming. 27:53 Thank you, and God bless you. |
Revised 2018-06-25