Pure Choices

Is My Orientation Sexual?

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Michael Carducci (Host), Wayne Blakely, Ron Woolsey


Series Code: PC

Program Code: PC000112A

00:01 This following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:05 may be too candid for younger children.
00:40 Welcome to Pure Choices.
00:42 My name is Michael Carducci,
00:43 and I'm here with my colleagues from Coming Out Ministries,
00:46 Pastor Ron Woolsey and also Wayne Blakely.
00:49 Thanks for coming, guys.
00:50 Yes, it's great to be here.
00:52 It's an incredible opportunity to just sit together
00:54 and talk about our new identities in Jesus Christ.
00:57 And, you know, one of the things
00:59 that we find tends to be very significant
01:03 is that people wonder where we are.
01:05 And, you know, this is not probably
01:07 the number one question that we get.
01:09 So what we want to talk about today is
01:10 we want to talk about how it is that we identify,
01:13 and what kind of descriptions or do we put,
01:17 you know, with that name of our new identity.
01:20 And so from multiple angles and various entities,
01:22 the world often operates from a reference
01:25 to someone's sexual orientation.
01:27 Ron, you're a pastor
01:28 with a good knowledge of God's Word.
01:30 I understand that God created us male and female,
01:33 but that's gender, not orientation.
01:36 Where in the Bible does God talk
01:38 about our sexual orientation?
01:40 You know, I've never found
01:42 where the Bible talks about sexual orientation,
01:44 but the Bible does talk about orientation.
01:47 Jesus talks about two paths that we may follow.
01:51 And having been a pilot in my earlier days,
01:55 if I focused on my orientation of myself,
01:59 I would never have landed in the right place.
02:02 Orientation is based upon your destination.
02:07 And in these two paths that Jesus talks about,
02:09 there is a broad way that leads to destruction,
02:12 and there's a narrow way which leads to life.
02:14 So the orientation that Bible speaks about
02:17 is about your destination, not about yourself.
02:21 So, Wayne, where does this all begin?
02:23 Where do we start talking about sexual orientation?
02:26 How did that begin?
02:28 Yeah, you know, I began to get a little
02:30 bothered by the fact that somebody
02:32 kept referring to sexual orientation.
02:34 And like Ron, I couldn't find references to it in God's Word.
02:38 But what I did find in my research
02:40 that the surfacing of the term sexual orientation
02:43 didn't come about until the early 1960s
02:46 after the sex research that Alfred Kinsey had done.
02:50 And what he did was he coined the phrase sexual orientation,
02:54 and then as teaching began
02:56 about sex education in the schools,
02:59 both public schools and Christian schools,
03:01 they adopted this term sexual orientation.
03:04 So one of the things that I think many people
03:07 that have our history, that have come from
03:09 has they truly question
03:11 what their sexual orientation is
03:13 and about their right to that?
03:14 I know that we all identified as gay for many years.
03:18 And in that, we said that we were born that way
03:21 to discourage any more discussion about it
03:24 or some of us actually believe that
03:26 that was our orientation and an entitlement to it.
03:29 So, Ron, any idea where that came about,
03:31 that we have a right to sexual orientation?
03:35 I believe it has to do with taking our eyes off Jesus,
03:38 and having our focus
03:41 really upside down God's way.
03:44 And the law of God is based upon loving God supremely,
03:48 loving others ahead of yourself, yourself last.
03:52 When we're focusing upon sexual orientation,
03:55 again we're focusing inward, we're not putting God first.
03:58 God has expressed very clearly how He feels,
04:02 what He thinks, what He has created.
04:05 And if we are really, truly oriented to God,
04:08 we are not going to be focusing upon
04:10 our own fallen human nature feelings,
04:13 and emotions, and tendencies.
04:15 Okay, so help me with something, Ron.
04:17 Make it practical if you would.
04:19 Tell me how that transition was for you personally because,
04:22 you know, we can talk theologically
04:25 and as far as like what the Word of God says,
04:29 but how did that translate for you,
04:31 someone who turned their back on homosexuality,
04:33 and is married with children now.
04:35 How was that for you that you put
04:38 God supreme and denied yourself?
04:41 Well, for me to find an escape from this bondage,
04:45 and I really felt it was bondage.
04:48 I hated my life.
04:50 My life of sin, and shame, and stigma.
04:53 And to really find my way out of that,
04:56 I really just had to let God lead me and accept
05:00 that He is a loving Father, that He knows best,
05:04 that if I would follow His plan for my life,
05:07 it would be much better than my own plan
05:10 for my life because I could not see the end
05:12 from the beginning, but He could.
05:14 And it really is as simple as trusting
05:18 that He knows best in patterning your life
05:22 after what He has counseled us to follow.
05:25 Okay.
05:26 And so, Wayne, you know, I really struggled
05:29 because I know that there's a lot of people out there
05:31 that were in our situation or are in our situation,
05:34 and they really want to even understand that for themselves.
05:37 And I think that there's a lot of confusion
05:39 and each one of us have gone through our own path that way.
05:42 Wayne, give me a practical understanding
05:44 of how that transition was for you?
05:46 It wasn't until I actually met you
05:48 that I even bothered to care about what my orientation was.
05:51 I don't care if you call ex-gay, whatever.
05:53 But it was very important to you,
05:55 and would you just share that practically
05:57 with people that might be listening?
06:00 I think it really got personal for me
06:02 when I was given the opportunity
06:04 to share my testimony for the first time.
06:06 And the lady who had helped bring about my conversion,
06:10 I looked at her and I said, "So who am I?"
06:14 And she said, "Oh, you're still gay."
06:16 And I said, "No, that doesn't compute."
06:19 Why would I have gone through what I went through
06:22 to surrender everything over to Jesus Christ
06:25 and still maintain the same identity?
06:28 That doesn't make sense to me.
06:29 And so I found eventually that I'm a new creature
06:34 in Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
06:36 I begin to find the joy in the Word of God,
06:39 and who it tells me I am today.
06:41 So it's interesting.
06:43 Dr. Michael Brown, who talks a lot about
06:45 the gay issue in Christianity, he also says that
06:49 this wasn't even an issue about gay rights
06:51 and about the gay translation of the Bible
06:54 until the sexual revolution, which was actually begun
06:57 by the research that Alfred Kinsey did.
07:00 So, Wayne, is it possible that we've drifted so far away
07:04 from God's plan over maybe hundreds of years
07:07 or even just a few decades that society has adopted
07:10 the idea that everyone has a right to sex?
07:14 I think we need to consider that
07:16 because of the implications
07:18 and the counterfeits that Satan brings about.
07:21 And he does it in such a way
07:22 that he doesn't think we'll recognize.
07:24 A book was written about True Sexual Morality
07:28 by Daniel Heimbach, and he had this to say.
07:31 I found it was pretty intriguing.
07:33 He says, "The gradual slide toward paganism
07:36 starts when a person still committed
07:38 to the Bible entertains dissatisfaction
07:41 with something God says about sex,
07:43 and a single logic connects a series of steps
07:46 that extend from sliding ever so slightly
07:49 from biblical teaching at one end of the full-scale
07:52 attack on biblical morality on the other.
07:55 Letting dissatisfaction fester
07:58 sparks interest in ways to soften
08:00 or remove the offending biblical teaching.
08:04 At first, it does this in ways
08:06 that do not challenge authority of scripture
08:09 but only try to change its meaning."
08:12 And so, to me, this began,
08:13 okay, here we go with hermeneutics.
08:16 And so, I think that Mr. Heimbach goes on
08:19 in this book to talk about
08:21 how the shaping of Christian morality
08:23 has switched to what the culture is today,
08:25 and it destroys the respect for the Bible.
08:28 Okay, so in recent history,
08:30 how is it that we've become so hung up on sex
08:34 and sexual identity?
08:35 Well, thankfully there's more than one person
08:37 writing about this today.
08:38 And another person, Linda Bartlett has written
08:41 in a book called The Failure of Sex Education in the Church.
08:45 She points out to us that holy is not sexy.
08:49 God calls us to holiness.
08:50 She says we are more than sexual beings,
08:53 we are spiritual beings, body, mind, and soul.
08:58 Therefore more important than educating
09:01 in all knowledge of sexuality is the teaching of identity
09:05 and salvation in Jesus Christ.
09:08 And so after I gave my life over to Jesus Christ,
09:11 I had to say to myself, so who am I today,
09:15 and so I today can joyfully say that
09:17 I'm a new creature in Jesus Christ.
09:19 Okay, all right.
09:20 So, Ron, what's the big deal?
09:22 Does it really matter how we identify
09:24 whether you're a gay Christian, an ex-gay,
09:27 a gay Seventh-day Adventist, isn't it just semantics?
09:32 Well, that's probably a good question to ask my wife.
09:35 But she's not here, so I'll try to answer for her.
09:39 I think she would be very disappointed
09:42 and very surprised if she heard me identifying
09:45 as a non-practicing gay.
09:49 When she tells her side of our story,
09:52 which she calls the real story.
09:55 She talks about how she knew me before went into the gay life.
09:59 And there was no indication whatsoever to her
10:02 or her friends that I was gay, and she knew about me
10:06 throughout my gay life as being a good friend with my sisters.
10:10 And when I came back to the Lord, she said,
10:13 "I knew if he was coming back to the Lord,
10:15 he would be what I knew him to be before he went away."
10:18 She has never thought of me as gay
10:21 or as a non-practicing gay.
10:24 And I don't think of myself in that term either
10:27 because that to me is negative reinforcement.
10:31 I turned my back on that totally.
10:34 I immerse myself in a new life.
10:37 And I decided that if I am to
10:40 ever have sexual fulfillment or intimacy in my life,
10:44 it can only be in the way God has designed it
10:47 or I will do without.
10:49 And so with that mindset
10:52 for the last 24 years, and 23 years of marriage,
10:57 I don't go around with the term heterosexual,
11:00 homosexual, ex-gay, non-practicing.
11:03 I'm just me living a new life with a wife,
11:05 and children, and ministry,
11:07 and now I don't think in those terms.
11:09 So I think these labels can really
11:12 actually inhibit our growth with the Lord.
11:14 Wow, Ron, thank you for making yourself so transparent
11:18 on that issue because I think a lot of people
11:21 misunderstand that just because that was your history
11:24 and now that you're living in a relationship
11:27 where you're married to a woman and have,
11:29 you know, a family again, a lot of us want to know,
11:32 like, was that a light switch, you know?
11:34 Wayne and I, who are still single,
11:36 it's been many years for me,
11:37 and while we still struggle with same sex attraction,
11:41 we still don't live in that lifestyle,
11:43 we don't live in that understanding,
11:45 and we're learning the process of denying
11:48 those things that call us from the past.
11:50 And so, Wayne, what's the big deal?
11:52 Why is this so important to understand
11:55 this post conversion identity?
11:58 Well, I think it's important to somebody, especially,
12:01 we reach out to people
12:02 who are looking at unwanted same sex attraction, all right?
12:06 So we're starting to look at somebody
12:09 who is looking to see if they can be somebody else
12:12 other than what their attractions are telling them.
12:15 So why would you want to secure yourself
12:18 in the fact you're gay.
12:19 The only reason you come out
12:21 and tell yourself or tell the world that you're gay
12:23 is because you've been convinced
12:25 that your feelings equal truth.
12:27 But the Word of God tells us that
12:29 if we're not practicing or for not being
12:33 led by the temptations into the behavior,
12:36 we don't have to identify by it,
12:37 we can share with somebody.
12:39 "Yes, please pray for me. I have same sex attraction."
12:42 But I can be somebody not identified
12:45 by my temptations, know.
12:46 We don't...
12:48 You don't call yourself a non-practicing thief
12:49 or a non-practicing adulterer or whatever the case may be,
12:53 but somehow we've locked into society
12:57 with this idea that once gay, always gay.
13:00 So even in a post conversion experience,
13:02 we're still telling somebody that they're gay.
13:04 Okay, so what I pick up from that again
13:07 is one of the issues that I really...
13:09 Not offended by, but really turned off by
13:12 was the fact that,
13:13 "Listen, you're still trying to put a label on me."
13:15 You know, if we don't have label...
13:17 If one of the things that we're trying to do is
13:18 get away from the labels, you know,
13:20 why would you want to even be called a gay Christian
13:24 when I want to be inclusive to the body of Christianity.
13:27 And if there's not exclusions for different sins
13:30 and different temptations,
13:32 then why would I want to be singled out
13:34 once again with another label called gay Christian.
13:37 Okay, and so that's something that's very personal to me.
13:41 So it sounds like there's a lack
13:43 of biblically based instruction.
13:45 And so what I really want to touch on now
13:47 is by continuing to identify as gay Christian
13:51 or homosexual Christian,
13:52 what we continue to do, I believe,
13:55 is to drop off temptation which God says
13:58 that behavior is an abomination.
14:00 And so if we're continuing to connect that
14:04 to our identity in Jesus Christ,
14:05 then I believe that what we continue to do
14:08 is connect ourselves to that understanding
14:10 and make Jesus power impudent.
14:13 So, Ron, could you elaborate on that, maybe a little bit?
14:17 When I left my life in the world years ago,
14:23 homosexuality was just one of the vices.
14:27 I turned my back on smoking, and drinking, and drugs,
14:30 and many other things.
14:33 And so I don't go around today
14:37 telling people that I'm a non-practicing pothead.
14:41 I'm a pothead Christian
14:44 or that I'm a lusting Christian but non-practicing.
14:47 We were addressing a group of ministers a while back,
14:50 and one of the questions that I posted to them was this,
14:54 "Suppose I come to you and I say, you know,
14:56 'I'm a non-practicing pedophile,'
14:59 is there a place for me in your church?
15:01 Oh, and by the way I really enjoy
15:02 working with young people."
15:05 Do you...
15:06 How would you feel if I carried that label?
15:09 I'm a Christian,
15:10 but I'm a non-practicing pedophile.
15:13 And the reaction was kind of unanimous.
15:15 They're going, "Well, we'd some problems with that."
15:21 If we're non-practicing,
15:22 then why do we call ourselves that?
15:25 We were staying with someone at a conference not long ago,
15:30 and the fellow in the home
15:31 was telling us that he was an alcoholic.
15:34 And I thought, "Oh, really?"
15:36 I mean he's very active in Bible work,
15:38 and prison ministry, and just on fire for the Lord.
15:41 And the next day he brought it up again, and I said,
15:44 "Doug, when was the last time you had a drink?"
15:47 He said, "Well, 22 years ago."
15:50 I said, "Doug, you're not an alcoholic,
15:53 you used to be an alcoholic."
15:55 You know, every time you say that,
15:56 that's negative reinforcement,
15:58 and it would tend to pull you down
16:01 or lessen your credibility.
16:03 So if we are accepting Jesus Christ,
16:06 let's lay these things aside.
16:07 Why do we want to identify with the things
16:09 we're being saved from?
16:11 Thank you. It's beautiful.
16:13 So when I was in SAA meetings, which is Sex Addicts Anonymous.
16:16 We would sit in a circle, and the circle would say,
16:19 "Hi, I'm Mike. I'm a sex addict."
16:20 And so what that did after a while as I realized that,
16:24 "What so a man thinketh in his heart that so he is."
16:26 And so that's not biblical.
16:28 I'm not that anymore, not because of my own power
16:31 but because of what Christ has done for me.
16:33 So when we're talking about the power of Jesus Christ,
16:36 I believe that we minimize that power
16:38 when we continue to identify with the struggle.
16:41 As a matter of fact, gay Christian is not biblical
16:45 because the Bible says that the old things are passed away.
16:48 And so if I didn't make the separation,
16:51 even though I may have the attraction by identifying
16:54 with the temptation I continued to bring that identity with me
16:58 and never fully embrace the power
17:00 of what Jesus Christ has for me.
17:02 And so to me, this is very important to understand
17:07 the specifics of that identity.
17:09 You know, in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11,
17:13 it talks about those who will not be in heaven.
17:16 And homosexuality is one of them.
17:18 It's listed in several different ways.
17:20 And in my simplistic way of thinking,
17:25 if someone is identifying as a gay Christian,
17:28 and God says,
17:30 "Gays will not be in heaven," then it's basically saying...
17:34 To me, it says, "I'm a Christian
17:36 who will not be in heaven
17:37 because gays will not be in heaven."
17:40 If I'm a gay Christian,
17:42 then I fall into that category of not everyone that says,
17:45 "Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."
17:48 Does that make sense?
17:49 If we're identifying with sin, we've not been saved from it,
17:52 we've not distance ourselves from it,
17:55 we're limiting God's ability to save us.
17:58 And I picture Jesus as kind of cutting away this ball
18:03 and chain that's been around our foot.
18:05 And that's like the bondage of sin.
18:09 Why would I pick that chain up in and drag it around with,
18:12 when I've been set free from it.
18:14 That's, to me, how I see these types of labels.
18:17 Okay, so Wayne, I want it...
18:19 There's something that I really want you to address for me,
18:21 but I just want to finish this thought.
18:23 When I approach someone about this problem
18:25 with masturbation that was still in my life,
18:28 the one thing that he said to me,
18:29 he said, "If you want freedom from it,"
18:32 he says, "you have to determine that it must die."
18:35 He said, "You have to slit its throat,
18:36 you have to stab it in the heart,
18:38 you have to smash its head."
18:39 And so one of the things that I had to realize
18:41 is I had to make a total and complete separation
18:45 from this thing that I identified with for so long,
18:47 and so the application is the same.
18:49 So, Wayne, what is the difference now?
18:52 You know, we have this message going around
18:54 like just love, you know, Jesus loves all of us.
18:57 He just loves us, and we need to be more loving
18:59 and show love to people.
19:01 Is that still true?
19:02 And is that where it ends?
19:05 Well, the love, yeah, the love is absolutely
19:09 the core of what is needed.
19:13 But love isn't permission.
19:16 And so we've somehow, even the church,
19:19 in the time that we didn't talk about this
19:23 has finally come around
19:24 to getting it into the discussion,
19:27 but now they're still afraid of offending.
19:29 And we need not offend anyone, but in the ignorance,
19:34 we're doing more damage by locking people
19:36 into identities that chain them
19:38 to the world instead of who they can be in Jesus Christ.
19:41 The love that we want to share, the love that Jesus shares
19:45 is that He will walk with us on the journey.
19:47 And that...
19:51 That no matter if you mess up,
19:55 that we don't let go off the person.
19:57 We still see them as the potential
19:59 that Jesus sees for them.
20:00 We still see them as the person
20:01 that they can become in Jesus Christ,
20:03 not locked into the past,
20:05 but by walking with them and saying, "It's okay.
20:08 Another day has gone by."
20:10 And you've surrendered,
20:11 and you've given your life over to Jesus Christ.
20:13 You're not identifying by your temptations,
20:15 but you're beginning to see the beauty
20:18 of who Jesus says you can be in Him.
20:21 And Jesus gives us roles and responsibilities,
20:23 He gives us engagements that we can have with Him,
20:26 the devotional time that we all share with Jesus today,
20:29 we start sharing with each other
20:30 what we've discovered in Jesus Christ.
20:33 And that inspires and motivates somebody else
20:35 along the journey as while we're walking with each other.
20:39 Sometimes Jesus has to carry us,
20:41 sometimes as a church body or as a caring individual,
20:45 we need to take that person's hand
20:47 and let them know that they are affirmed,
20:49 that they're confirmed in Jesus Christ,
20:51 but they have escaped from their past.
20:54 So one of the things that we've all experienced
20:56 is that the church definitely needs a lot of work
20:59 in the area of loving sinners, right?
21:02 And in particular, even loving homosexuals.
21:05 But that's not where it ends.
21:07 That's such a vital part, and we identify that the church
21:10 really has a lot of work to do in that area,
21:12 but that doesn't mean that we throw out
21:13 the power of Jesus Christ either
21:15 or the word that comes with conviction
21:18 which some people can find, you know,
21:21 what's the word that you use for it, Ron?
21:24 It hurts, it pinches, right? Conviction.
21:27 Can I say something,
21:29 it's more about the love issue from a parental position.
21:33 There are two kinds of love.
21:36 And we can say that we love our children
21:40 and indulge their bad behavior.
21:43 And this is what I see happening
21:44 so much in the church today.
21:46 There is this love that is loving people
21:51 down the broad way which leads to destruction.
21:53 I call it cheap love.
21:55 It's not the love that our heavenly Father has.
21:58 When we realize that God is love,
22:01 and He's the perfect definition of love, He is a father,
22:05 and so everything that He does
22:07 and everything that He says is from a loving heart.
22:10 So that means His commandments, His warnings, His reproofs,
22:15 His corrections, His punishment,
22:18 all of these things are from a loving Father.
22:21 And as a father myself,
22:23 one of the most difficult things I've ever had to do
22:25 is punish my children.
22:28 But in love, I know that at times it had to be done.
22:31 And what we're seeing so much in the church today
22:34 is what I call cheap love.
22:36 It's not a love that will love someone
22:39 and nurture them along the narrow way,
22:41 it is a love that will just kind of gloss over things
22:46 down the broad way to destruction.
22:48 You know, God's Word said,
22:49 "To those that I love, I rebuke and chasten."
22:52 He is a Father, right?
22:54 So, Wayne, you know,
22:55 in regards to the churches and the schools,
22:57 you know, are they failing to recognize this difference,
23:00 and are we more interested in being
23:02 coming politically correct in a world
23:04 that is just bombarding us with
23:06 sexual identity, sexual freedom,
23:09 and it makes Christianity look kind of restrictive
23:14 or even kind of old-fashioned or even hateful.
23:17 And so elaborate on that if you would.
23:19 What's wrong with this?
23:21 Well, I think there's a certain amount of oppression
23:23 that is coming from culture today.
23:26 And, you know, if you choose not to have a biblical belief,
23:32 that's okay, you have a choice about that,
23:34 and nobody is forcing you to adopt that.
23:36 But when you enter into a Christian school system,
23:40 you should be able to get the purity of the Word of God
23:44 and the compelling power of the Word of God.
23:46 And so when we begin to bow to social pressure
23:51 instead of living for the greatness
23:56 of the Word of God that makes us
23:59 a peculiar people today,
24:01 we're selling people short of who they can be.
24:03 And so I think it's important.
24:05 I think that there's an importance.
24:08 We don't have the end all solution on this,
24:11 but we have a lot of good positive solutions
24:15 having been there.
24:16 And because the church refused
24:18 to discuss this for such a long time,
24:21 I see today that they want to be
24:23 in authoritative position,
24:24 and they don't necessarily want to consult
24:26 with somebody like you and I.
24:28 They wanted to have come from themselves,
24:31 but they're floundering a little bit,
24:32 and I think that they're not giving the students
24:36 who is searching the full potential
24:38 of who they can be in Jesus Christ.
24:41 One of the things that was so profound for me
24:43 in this journey, and you guys have helped me a lot
24:46 with this because, you know, you guys are more...
24:51 What's the word for it? It's like...
24:52 For me, it was kind of like,
24:54 "Well, just tell me what I have to do to get by."
24:56 And so I was kind of moving in that direction.
24:58 It wasn't until I really determined
25:00 that this part must go.
25:02 And before I could even realize that, you know,
25:05 I tried to keep it, these are things that I love,
25:07 things that I enjoy, things that I embrace,
25:09 and so it wasn't until I really made the distinction
25:11 that I'm not that anymore.
25:13 And I may struggle with those feelings and attractions,
25:16 but I choose not to be identified with that.
25:18 I want to be identified by the power of Jesus Christ.
25:21 And as I started to identify with that,
25:24 even against my feelings, and claiming the Word of God,
25:27 then all of a sudden that power became real.
25:32 It started to manifest itself in my life.
25:34 I started to gain victories over areas
25:36 that I didn't have before.
25:37 I started to experience feelings,
25:39 and tendencies, and tastes that I'd never had before.
25:42 And so I think that that's the gravest danger
25:45 is that by continuing to put
25:47 that identity in there that I'm still an ex-gay
25:50 or a gay Christian or whatever that is,
25:52 I still continue to drag that along with me,
25:54 like you were saying, Ron.
25:56 So, guys, this has been helpful for me.
25:59 Give me a final thought
26:01 if you could in about 30 seconds or so to really,
26:04 kind of, personalize your experience
26:07 and how this has such meaning for you?
26:09 I think, quickly, from your inspiration
26:12 and motivation to do, you know, spend time with God,
26:15 and to go in deep and find out more things
26:18 that are benefiting your Christian life today.
26:20 You share those with us sometimes,
26:22 and that intrigues me,
26:24 and that makes me have further victories.
26:26 If we go to the Word of God which cannot fail us,
26:30 that's how we help one another along the way.
26:33 We don't have to gloss it over.
26:34 We don't have to make it look like something it isn't
26:37 or put it in a PC kind of language today.
26:41 We can take the Word as it states.
26:43 Oh, thanks, Wayne.
26:45 Ron?
26:46 You know, I think of the passage in Romans 12:1-2,
26:50 "Be not conformed to this world,
26:52 but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind."
26:57 And through the Bible, I've found so many helpful tips
27:02 on how to have that transformation of thinking
27:06 that helps us see ourselves in a totally different light.
27:10 And if we will look at ourselves
27:11 and try to look at ourselves the way Jesus looks at us
27:16 as a new child in Christ,
27:18 it helps us realize that our orientation
27:20 is in Him as a royal child of God.
27:25 Wow, so that's great.
27:26 Thank you, guys, for those closing comments.
27:29 One of the things that I realize more and more is that
27:32 by being called a gay Christian,
27:33 we're really... it's a handicap.
27:35 You're leaving us with a handicap.
27:37 And because of our past,
27:39 because of our experience in Christ,
27:41 we know that those things have to go
27:42 to be able to walk in the fullness
27:44 of what God has created us to be.
27:46 So thank you for this lively discussion.
27:49 And we hope that you'll come back and join us again
27:51 on Pure Choices.


Revised 2018-07-23