Participants: Michael Carducci (Host), Wayne Blakely, Walt Heyer
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000116A
00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material may be too candid
00:06 for younger children.
00:40 Welcome to Pure Choices.
00:41 I'm Michael Carducci with Coming Out Ministries.
00:44 And I've the opportunity to interview Wayne Blakely
00:47 my colleague, and also Walt Heyer.
00:49 Welcome guys.
00:50 Thank you. All right.
00:52 So what we're going to talk about today is
00:54 transgenderism in the church.
00:56 And what we want to kind of discuss
00:57 is not only to establish our histories,
01:01 some of what we've experienced in the area of transgenderism
01:04 but also in the relationship to how that applies to church.
01:08 Because what we have now is we have multiple situations,
01:10 Wayne you and I have experienced,
01:12 Walt, even exponentially higher.
01:15 A situation of how to transition transgender
01:18 into church culture.
01:20 And so, Wayne, I just want to kind of establish,
01:24 what is your history with transgenderism personally?
01:27 Well my birth mother wasn't comfortable
01:29 with the fact that she had a baby boy.
01:32 She campaigned against it while she was pregnant with me,
01:35 and so that, when she was,
01:37 when she did gave birth to a boy,
01:39 I'm sure she was angry and upset.
01:41 I was adopted but the damage it's already been done.
01:44 I realize that I wasn't going to gain the love
01:47 that I so desperately wanted, and thus I become that girl,
01:51 and I found a sympathetic neighbor lady
01:55 who I ended up calling my aunty Ross.
01:57 And she would assist in dressing me up as a girl
02:02 from probably the ages of four
02:05 up until I was thirteen years old.
02:07 Wow. I never knew that, Wayne.
02:09 So again, you know, here you're,
02:10 you're born to a mother that rejected you.
02:13 As a matter of fact by the time you were three years old,
02:15 she'd broken your arm twice in two separate occasions.
02:18 So now here you're, you're adopted by your aunt
02:20 and uncle and now your neighbor is dressing you up
02:23 in girl clothes till you're thirteen years old?
02:25 Yeah. I didn't know that.
02:27 Yeah, at twelve years old,
02:30 I was into the Trick-or-treating
02:32 when that would come around,
02:33 I wanted to be Cinderella and she dyed as she'd pink
02:36 and I got a acrylic horrible, set on fire,
02:40 blonde wig and wore crown probably and I think my parents
02:46 wanted to dissolve into the earth.
02:48 Wow, it's interesting the things you find out
02:51 in an interview, right?
02:53 And so for me, you know, my gender dysphoria happened
02:56 before I was even conscious,
02:57 and we talk about a defensive detachment.
03:00 Because when I was transitioning
03:02 from my mother to my father realizing that
03:04 I was male and not female.
03:05 And my father was either unavailable for me
03:08 or abusive physically and verbally and emotionally,
03:12 and so I totally, before I was even conscious rejected
03:15 his masculinity.
03:16 The only example left for me was my mom,
03:18 so she was soft, she spoke softly.
03:21 I wanted to imitate her and mimic her.
03:24 And so for me,
03:25 I started wanting to be a girl thinking that I was a girl
03:28 and that's where my transgender confusion
03:30 happened for me.
03:31 Walt, briefly what was your history?
03:33 Well, I started at the age of four
03:35 cross-dressing with the help of my grandmother,
03:37 so I had the same kind of experience,
03:39 even though my grandmother stop dressing me,
03:41 you know, when I was about seven.
03:43 I still continue to secretly cross dress.
03:46 I hid clothes in the garage and another places,
03:48 so that I could continue cross-dressing
03:50 and frankly didn't stop until I was redeemed
03:55 and restored by Christ.
03:56 Right, so many parallels
03:59 and yet some real interesting differences.
04:02 You know, for, Wayne, how old were you
04:04 when the transgenderism dissipated for you?
04:08 Well, it was interesting, you know,
04:10 I'd been standing in the bathroom
04:11 and punching myself on the face and begging God.
04:15 I was demanding that he had made a mistake
04:18 and yet when I entered into gay culture at the age of 18.
04:24 I found that men in gay culture
04:28 were more appreciative of masculinity than femininity.
04:31 And so I realized that, well, may be it is that I'm okay
04:34 as a guy, and so then I started wearing the jeans
04:37 and the cowboy boots and the plaid shirts
04:40 and the idea of wanting to become a girl
04:44 really went away because I began to feel
04:46 more comfortable in my masculinity.
04:48 And my situation was very similar.
04:51 The difference though was
04:52 you received a rejection form your mother.
04:55 I rejected my father and yet we both had
04:58 the same kind of history.
04:59 And then when I was 20 years old
05:01 and came out into a gay culture,
05:02 I also realized that, if I butched it up
05:04 a little bit more and worked out in a gym
05:06 that I could get the attention from men that I desired.
05:08 Even though that was in an area of brokenness on its own.
05:12 The gender dysphoria really dissipated from me
05:14 and I was very comfortable with my male parts,
05:17 because now I realize how to get the attention of men.
05:20 So, Walt, you took a very different direction
05:22 and even though, you were never homosexual,
05:26 when did the gender dysphoria for you dissipate?
05:29 Well, it didn't dissipate until many, many years
05:33 after I'd undergone surgery and gone to therapy.
05:36 So I was, you know, started at the age of four,
05:39 so it didn't really dissipate until I was 50 years old.
05:43 And so it took many years.
05:46 So now we have an issue where not only
05:49 do have transgenderism, you know,
05:51 in our phases on the media with television
05:53 and Bruce Jenner as Caitlyn Jenner,
05:56 but now we have situations where we find in ministry
05:59 and especially you, Walt, with your ministry
06:02 that now we have the church trying to find compassion
06:06 for these people, people like us.
06:08 And also how is it that you could bring them
06:10 into church culture without sacrificing
06:13 the protection of the church members as well.
06:17 It's a very real problem so.
06:19 What I wanted to talk about little bit is,
06:21 some of the issues that we have.
06:22 One of the questions that was brought up
06:24 at our panel that we had was,
06:26 you have a 13 year boy who is transgenderd
06:29 and he wants to go to summer camp, you know,
06:31 to a Christian summer camp.
06:32 And so, what side of the camp do you put him on.
06:35 And one of the questions that we talked about
06:37 was the fact that this is a little boy,
06:39 that's 13 years old, that his parents
06:41 are obviously supporting that,
06:43 if he is coming as a transgender,
06:45 so he has a brightly painted pink room
06:47 and he's got a closet full of dresses.
06:49 You can't insist that he dress as a boy
06:51 and put him on the boy side.
06:53 And then I think, well, you can't put him
06:55 on the girl side either because that wouldn't be fair
06:57 to the girls to expose this young boy, you know,
07:00 to male genitalia before they're ready for it.
07:04 And then, if you put him on the boy side
07:05 as a boy then, you need to protect the transgender
07:09 also from being taunted and teased by the other kids.
07:12 So we have this dilemma that, quite frankly
07:15 we just couldn't even answer that question.
07:17 Walt or Wayne, if you have any thoughts on that?
07:21 Yeah, I think one of the things is interesting
07:23 when we're talking about this, we're talking about
07:25 what happens to the other people,
07:27 but we're not talking about what happens
07:29 to the transgender.
07:31 So here we go, we're taking a transgender
07:33 and we're putting him in environments
07:35 we all would agree are going to be difficult.
07:37 If you put the guy with the girls,
07:38 it's going to be difficult.
07:39 If you put him with the boys, it's going to be difficult,
07:41 so it seems to me like, if we look at transgender
07:46 as a behavior and not as an identity
07:49 because that's how I see it and we understand
07:51 that they're damaged.
07:53 You know, we're sitting here, we all had damage in our life.
07:56 We got there through damage.
07:58 And if we understand the cross-dressing
08:00 is actually an abuse in of itself.
08:04 So we have...
08:05 Talk about that for just a moment for our viewers.
08:09 Cross-dressing causes emotional, psychological
08:13 and psychiatric damage, because you're telling
08:16 that person that they're not who they are, that's damaging,
08:19 and it causes depression, it causes hurt, it causes pain.
08:24 So if we look at this individual
08:26 that's we're discussing about
08:28 what part of the camp to put him in.
08:30 It would seem to me like, psychologically the best thing
08:33 is not to place him in camp at all.
08:36 The kid should stay home.
08:37 Now, you know, caring about them is also being honest
08:42 with them and loving on them...
08:44 Wait, say that again 'cause that's beautiful.
08:47 Caring for them is being honest with them and honesty means
08:51 that you have to confront people with issues
08:54 that are not appropriate.
08:55 For a boy to act out being a girl
08:58 and that's just acting out.
08:59 And if we understand, the compassion comes
09:02 from understanding, they're not doing it deliberately.
09:05 They're doing it because something happened,
09:07 because there is some unfortunate event whether
09:11 it's a trauma or loss or whatever it is,
09:14 whether it's sexual abuse.
09:16 I found many of the transgenders
09:18 have been sexually abused like I was.
09:20 So if we look at this and understand that
09:23 they've had some trauma or event in their life
09:27 then withholding them from camp is not really abusing them
09:31 or denying them, it's actually helping them not get
09:34 into a situation, that's going to make their gender dysphoria
09:38 and their life more difficult.
09:40 So holding them back is better for them
09:41 than putting him in an environment
09:43 that's not going to be good for them.
09:44 All right, so I think it's important to show that
09:48 in helping the person with transgender ideation.
09:51 That it's not beneficial to encourage them
09:54 to identify as the opposite sex.
09:57 Absolutely, because all you're doing
10:00 is enabling them to use this behavior
10:05 to continue dealing with the depression
10:08 and other issues,
10:10 and not dealing with the core issue of--
10:12 I always like to sit down with transgenders and say,
10:15 tell me about what happened, when did this start?
10:18 Because we can sit here
10:19 and we can all identify with when it started.
10:21 Would we take the time?
10:23 Would the pastor of the church sit down long enough,
10:25 to sit down and evaluate, when did this happen?
10:28 When did you first see this occur?
10:30 Was it, you know, did somebody die in the family?
10:33 Where you sexually abused? Was there a loss?
10:36 I have found 100 percent of the time,
10:39 if we take the time
10:40 and loving, care and compassion for that child.
10:44 We can get the massage
10:46 of why they're acting out as a transgender
10:48 when in fact, they were badly abused.
10:51 Yeah, Wayne?
10:54 So, yeah, that opens up two things
10:57 and that it is now a multiple level.
10:59 Now it's the transgender and it's the parents,
11:03 and so you might in some situations
11:06 get permission to speak to the transgender.
11:08 But how do you get to the parents
11:10 that are now endorsing the behavior,
11:14 they just want them to be happy at what level,
11:16 and the pastor doesn't seem to be educated,
11:19 and so they're not exactly sure about what to do.
11:22 So we understand it,
11:23 how can we go about implementing the knowledge
11:28 and the information that would be so helpful to them.
11:31 Well, a lot of parents are going to recheck the idea,
11:33 you know, if you're trying to tell them
11:35 that their kid has something going wrong with him,
11:38 that they're depressed or whatever.
11:40 Parents are not necessarily going to embrace that idea
11:42 because it may have a reflection on them.
11:44 In fact, sometimes it doesn't come in the home.
11:47 Maybe it was a neighborhood child,
11:49 maybe it was some other event so.
11:51 You know, we don't have to point to the parents
11:53 and say it was the parents fault.
11:54 We don't really know at this point.
11:57 So I think it's important
11:59 when we're dealing with transgenders in the church
12:01 to understand that we may not have success.
12:03 We may not be able to convince the parents
12:06 that this is appropriate and there may be conflict.
12:09 This is a very troubling and difficult issue.
12:12 If we're looking to try to just appease everybody,
12:16 we're going to end up actually damaging the child
12:19 and not coming to a good solution.
12:21 So I think if we can drive home the point,
12:24 that we have somebody who really needs some care,
12:27 some psychological care
12:28 and not place them in environments
12:31 that are going to harm them,
12:33 we're going to be better off,
12:34 but don't expect the parents to go along with it.
12:36 Right. Okay.
12:38 So, it brings up a question in my mind
12:40 and so there was a situation
12:43 where there was a transgendered male to female at this church.
12:47 And I thought that because I come from gay culture,
12:49 I'd seen men in dresses,
12:50 I'd seen all kinds of different gender confusion.
12:53 I thought, oh, this is a no-brainer.
12:54 But when I was actually confronted with this person,
12:57 I'm telling you, I felt like I was at a total loss,
12:59 and here I am in ministry,
13:01 so one of the things that I find so confusing is,
13:06 do I approach this person as a gender they prefer to be,
13:09 do I approach him as a gender that they are
13:12 without being disrespectful.
13:13 How can I uphold the Christian standard
13:17 and God's plea for them
13:18 to claim who He created them to be,
13:21 and at the same time not disrespect them
13:23 or build a wall of defense against them.
13:26 So can we talk about that for a moment?
13:30 Yeah, I think in my particular position,
13:32 what I do is I use the word neutral.
13:35 And so you don't push either side,
13:37 because you know if you few push them,
13:39 if they're man
13:40 and you're trying to overemphasize their manhood,
13:43 you're going to offend them.
13:44 And if you're too much going toward the feminism side of it,
13:49 you're actually enabling them
13:51 to enhance this vision of who they're--
13:54 And affirming. Okay. And affirming them.
13:56 And so, if you stay neutral and not get in that zone
13:58 and just stay with the issues
14:00 that you're talking to them about
14:02 and stay focused on that.
14:03 I don't use gender names.
14:07 I just use their last name or I avoid them all together.
14:10 Okay, so how would that look, Mr. Smith?
14:13 Well, I can talk to you all day long
14:15 and never use a male identity or I never use your first name,
14:19 and still have good conversation
14:21 and still get information from you
14:23 without using the pronouns.
14:25 Okay. Wayne?
14:29 Yeah, I'm looking at that from a church--
14:33 In a church environment
14:35 because we're having that so much more today
14:38 with the whole idea of love and acceptance.
14:41 We're doing this with the LGBT
14:44 which of course the transgender is involved
14:47 and so leadership
14:49 and pastors are beginning to affirm people.
14:53 Well, how do we hold that?
14:54 I think you have some of the information
14:56 about some Bible references and helpfulness on this topic.
15:02 We recently have somebody
15:04 who has been ordained as a transgenderd
15:07 elder in the church today.
15:09 Well, you know, I look at this,
15:12 I look at things very simply to begin with
15:14 because I'm a simple person,
15:16 and it's easier to understand in a simple way.
15:19 And if someone who claims to be transgender
15:22 or who identifies he's transgender
15:24 or who's behaving as a transgender
15:28 wants to have the leadership
15:30 or being in a leadership role in the church.
15:32 I think it's totally appropriate
15:34 to not allow them to be in leadership in the church.
15:37 Because, again we go back to the fact
15:39 that God made them who they were born as.
15:43 And so, if we're not doing what my grandmother didn't do
15:47 and supporting that birth gender.
15:49 We're actually going against the God's will,
15:50 aren't we?
15:52 And so, if a person is acting out
15:55 this transgender behavior,
15:57 they're actually being defiant toward God.
16:01 So if we look at this from a defiant standpoint
16:04 and we can understand that,
16:07 you know, not being uncompassionate about it,
16:10 they're defiant because they're injured.
16:12 They're hurting, they have deep hurts.
16:15 We need to get to the deep hurt
16:17 for them to be able to come out and be who they really are.
16:20 Right now they're dealing,
16:22 they're showing a different identity
16:24 as a way to cope with their hurt.
16:27 All right, so the analogy that I see is that,
16:30 here we have a wound, a deep wound.
16:33 And so what's happen is that wound is healed over,
16:35 may be that's the transgender issue
16:37 that, you know, I feel like I'm a female
16:39 trapped in a male body.
16:40 So the compassionate a part of the church is like,
16:44 that's been promoted now,
16:45 it's just you just leave that wound,
16:47 infected underneath that's healed over
16:49 and it affects the blood,
16:51 the heart, the mind and all that.
16:53 And so, you can refer to them
16:55 as the sex that they desire to be.
16:57 But you haven't addressed the real issue
16:59 and a real compassionate pastor or church,
17:03 what they're going to do
17:04 is they're going to engage with this person.
17:06 They're going to connect with them,
17:08 and then they're going to go through the process
17:09 of opening up that scar and dealing with the infection
17:13 because the infection isn't going to go away
17:15 by just giving you the name or the gender that you desire,
17:19 instead it's a process, a committed process
17:22 of opening that up and cleaning up that infection,
17:24 and then allowing it to heal from the inside out.
17:27 Isn't that right? That is beautiful.
17:29 I couldn't have said it better, but that's exactly right.
17:32 You know, I think if we can capture that in the church
17:35 and understand that they are deeply hurt.
17:37 They're wounded and they need our love,
17:41 but they also need the love of truth.
17:44 And I don't think enabling people to act out in a behavior
17:48 that's come out of some deep hurt is appropriate
17:52 or helping them in any way shape or form,
17:55 because what we see today
17:58 is we know the transgender population,
18:00 because they're not getting help
18:02 for that deep wound.
18:03 They're not seeing those things heal
18:05 that are deep down inside.
18:07 We see this population attempting suicide
18:10 at a rate of 40% or more.
18:12 So if you look at attempted suicides
18:16 and realize that people who are happy with themselves
18:19 and are enjoying life and are living
18:22 a psychologically well established healthy life.
18:26 They don't attempt suicide, do they?
18:29 So we must have a population then
18:32 of people who are deeply hurt
18:34 and are not getting the psychological
18:37 and psychiatric help they need to avoid committing suicide.
18:40 And I think it's fair to know that,
18:43 you come from not a position of judgment
18:45 or looking at someone.
18:47 You come from that example yourself,
18:48 you've come from that experience
18:50 and so it isn't like,
18:52 we're sitting loathing over transgenders
18:54 and telling them what their problem is.
18:56 We're finding compassion to say,
18:58 listen, I was with you
19:00 and this is what I struggled with too.
19:01 I identify with you but this is not the answer.
19:05 Isn't that right? Wayne, you wanted to share.
19:07 Yeah, because of the acceptance of the damaged behavior
19:10 and thinking that we're showing love,
19:13 now we're damaging the entire church body.
19:16 And by, in my church
19:18 we accommodated a repentant transgender who--
19:23 it's interesting that we don't look at
19:25 what that repentance looks like.
19:27 What would be the behavior modification
19:29 of a transgendered,
19:30 I mean, of a repentant transgender?
19:33 Because in this large church,
19:35 we've opened the door to the women's restroom,
19:38 and now we pose
19:40 a very contrasting acceptance
19:45 or, you know, consideration about the fact
19:50 that now I'm standing in the women's restroom
19:52 with multiple styles in front of young children
19:55 and usually it's younger children
19:58 and older ladies that are shocked,
20:01 because the middle-aged people are like,
20:03 they're just out in society,
20:05 they're being thrown all kinds of things,
20:08 it's not a shocking to them.
20:09 In church environments, the pastor is like,
20:13 well, I don't know, we just need to show love here,
20:16 and then the church board takes the lead from the pastor,
20:20 it gets very confusing.
20:22 What do you do in situations
20:24 about bringing some sense of redemptive look
20:28 to this situation?
20:29 Well, again, I always go back
20:31 and look at the other side, you know.
20:32 What about the women in a bathroom,
20:34 the church's job is to protect them and--
20:37 Well, that's to establish the fact
20:39 that if the law stands the way it is,
20:41 that a man who hasn't had any surgery
20:44 that's just wearing a dress,
20:45 he could even have a mustache and a beard,
20:47 he's allowed to use a women's rest room.
20:50 You can be called a transgender and in the State of Florida,
20:53 you can have your birth certificate changed
20:55 even though you never have had any of the surgery done.
20:57 So now you have people men, physical men
21:01 that are coming into a bathroom,
21:02 into a women's bathroom at church,
21:04 and when you've got small children
21:06 and that kind of thing so,
21:08 who protects the small child
21:09 from being exposed to male genitalia,
21:11 a small female child
21:13 before she is ready to see that.
21:15 Well, unfortunately that's a big issue, isn't it?
21:18 And so, this is why in my mind,
21:21 I know this is sort of a overall simple solution
21:24 but, you know, I look to bathrooms in the future
21:26 to be, just for the individuals in that community bathrooms
21:30 where you've been invaded by people
21:32 who are doing this kind of behavior,
21:34 so you'd have a door, you can come in and lock
21:36 and you're in there with your family
21:38 and it's just a small bathroom that no one else can access.
21:41 And that may be the bathroom of the future
21:44 to protect young people, protect women,
21:47 we've already seen one person go into a bathroom
21:50 in another state in this country
21:52 that did molest somebody in and hurt them badly.
21:55 So we know that there are predators out there,
21:58 who have a mindset to do something,
22:01 but generally speaking
22:03 those who are not all the transgenders,
22:04 but they do cause people great deal of trauma
22:09 and difficulty when they enter a bathroom
22:11 and they look like a man.
22:12 And I don't think
22:14 they should be allowed to go in there in my view.
22:16 Well, I think it bears repeating.
22:17 We've done an earlier broadcast
22:20 so, Walt, would you tell us what your experience was like,
22:23 when you came into church culture
22:25 as a female, as Laura,
22:27 what the response from the church was
22:28 because I think that was powerful.
22:30 Yeah, the very first time I went in as Laura
22:32 and my counselor at the time had called the church pastor
22:37 and asked if it was okay that I went to that church
22:40 because he knew the pastor,
22:42 he is a friend of his and he said,
22:43 I have Laura, a transgender, would it be okay,
22:45 he struggled to get in a church and he said, sure bring him on.
22:48 So I came, I signed in as Laura in the guestbook,
22:53 and all these ladies came around me
22:55 because I was a new comer, we all sat together,
22:57 and one of them was the pastor's wife,
22:59 we had a great exchange
23:01 and his wife begin to talk to me a lot.
23:04 She liked talking to me, and she said,
23:06 well, we have a teas and coffees and, you know,
23:09 she was sort of encouraging me to get involved.
23:12 And so, I went outside after church
23:14 and had little coffee and went home,
23:16 and I though it was like outstanding
23:18 because the pastor's wife now
23:20 is really embracing me into the church community.
23:23 Well, that afternoon later on I saw a car pull up
23:27 and the door open and I went, there is a pastor,
23:30 the guy who gave the massage on Sunday is coming to see me,
23:33 this is got to be great.
23:34 He knocked down the door, I opened up the door
23:36 and I said, hello, and he walked inside and says,
23:39 we don't want your kind in our church,
23:41 and I looked at him and I said, oh that's good,
23:44 what kind do you want?
23:47 What did he said? What did he said?
23:48 He said nothing and left and turned around walked away,
23:51 but to me that really proved to me
23:54 about the difficulty that transgenders have
23:57 and being able to get, you know,
24:00 inside the church and be accepted.
24:02 Even though he knew I was showing up.
24:04 I think his wife's acceptance of me
24:07 and wanting to expand that acceptance out
24:09 within the church begin to trouble him so much.
24:12 He wasn't going to allow it to happen.
24:13 So, Walt, now we have this situation
24:16 where we have people that are actually saying,
24:18 oh it's no problem, come on in as you are,
24:20 we'll call you whatever sex you desired to be,
24:23 and then the other extreme, that's not beneficial,
24:26 and then you have the other extreme
24:27 of total rejection.
24:29 This I think is much more prevalent in Christianity
24:32 because of a misunderstanding
24:33 or the fact that this is so distasteful,
24:36 just give them what they want,
24:38 so that I don't have to be involved.
24:39 Isn't that kind of
24:41 what you were referring to at one point?
24:42 Yeah, and I think it's important
24:43 to understand it the distinction.
24:45 I had gone through surgery, I had a new birth certificate,
24:48 all my identity was female.
24:50 I was a female in every way shape or form.
24:53 So I was not, you know, standing there as a man
24:56 claming to be a female
24:57 and being accepted by the church.
24:59 I was accepted because
25:01 I'd already gone through the surgery
25:02 and had everything put together, you say.
25:06 And so, I was there actually, isn't it interesting
25:09 that a transgenders even going to church
25:11 and seeking out the Lord, some one should get a clue,
25:15 you know, that they're for a reason.
25:18 And so you response, well, what kind do you want
25:19 in your church, I think was a perfect response
25:22 to challenge the pastor's, you know, dismissal of you,
25:25 and the fact that you are still a soul for the kingdom.
25:28 All right and so another question that I have is,
25:30 you know, what should the position be
25:34 to accept transgenders into church culture
25:36 because we're going to see that more as time goes on.
25:39 Well, it's going to be different for every church,
25:41 there's no question about that.
25:43 Every leadership is going to see this issue differently
25:45 depending on their leadership position,
25:48 but I think it's important for people
25:51 and I've always suggested
25:52 that people sit down with that transgender,
25:54 don't just allow them in.
25:56 Somebody has in the church has to become a mentor.
25:59 And actually be with that person
26:02 and learn about their life,
26:03 take them to coffee, spend time with them
26:07 to begin to understand how they got that way,
26:09 where they're coming from.
26:11 The importance as we know in building a relationship
26:15 with Jesus Christ, we get healed overtime,
26:18 it doesn't happen in a lightning bolt,
26:20 you know, so if we're going to learn
26:22 about who the transgender is and what he's struggling with,
26:25 we're going to have to spend in relationship
26:28 with that transgender.
26:29 I would be very concerned
26:32 about allowing them a great access
26:34 if they haven't had surgery
26:36 and they haven't had all the trappings
26:38 where they can identify legally as a female,
26:42 which is going to be more and more of those
26:43 who just come in and say,
26:45 I'm a female and they're gonna look like a man,
26:46 and I think it's important
26:48 for the church to really get a grip
26:50 on spending time with these people,
26:52 and they may need to set aside a small group of mentors
26:56 who deal with it and just spend time with them
26:59 who have a good grasp of how to deal with it
27:02 and the leadership then can get together
27:04 and decide as a church,
27:06 how do we want to deal with this,
27:07 do we want, you know,
27:09 whatever it is to deal with that
27:11 and put him in a small group, I think it's good for them
27:13 to be in a small groups in church
27:15 to be loved on and cared for and prayed about
27:18 and the church I went into, they started a prayer letter
27:22 and allowed me to write out a prayer letter
27:24 and talk about the struggles that was having in the church.
27:26 So then it helped
27:27 and eventually that built to like
27:29 35 people in the church
27:30 they was reading that prayer letter
27:32 and so they knew what was going on
27:34 and then they could get together with the elders
27:37 and talk about how to heal that.
27:38 Right so this is a process,
27:41 we're going to need education
27:42 in our pastors in the leadership
27:44 and they're going to have to really go much deeper
27:46 than what we have time for.
27:48 We want to thank you again, Walt and Wayne,
27:50 for participating today on our program.
27:53 Hope you'll come back and join us
27:54 on Pure Choices again.
27:56 Thank you, guys.