Participants: Danielle Harrison (Host), Ron Woolsey
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000120A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned 00:05 that some material may be too candid 00:06 for younger children. 00:40 Hello, and welcome to Pure Choices. 00:42 My name is Danielle Harrison. 00:44 And I'm with Coming Out Ministries. 00:46 Today, we're going to be talking with Ron Woolsey. 00:48 Welcome, Ron. 00:49 Thank you, Danielle. 00:51 Good to be with you again. 00:52 Amen. 00:54 So, Ron, in generations past, 00:56 there's been a clear understanding 00:57 within the Christian community 00:59 that homosexuality is not in harmony 01:02 with biblical standards and views. 01:05 So it hasn't been practiced 01:07 that homosexuals have been welcomed into membership 01:10 and especially not into 01:11 leadership positions in the church. 01:14 But somehow it seems that that is shifting and changing 01:17 in this current generation. 01:18 Why do you think that is? 01:20 Danielle, it seems that the tendency in society today 01:24 is to yield to political correctness 01:28 and political pressure. 01:29 And as the gay culture 01:33 has experienced over decades now, 01:37 not only toleration, 01:39 but acceptance, and celebration, 01:41 and promotion, and legislation in their favor. 01:46 Gay people who identify as Christians 01:50 have also been emboldened by all of these advances. 01:54 And so many gay people 01:57 that are raised in a Christian culture 02:00 are comfortable within that culture. 02:03 They don't want to be rejected by that culture. 02:07 And so they are involved in bringing this gay agenda 02:11 into their culture which is the church. 02:14 So even if they reject the authority of the Bible 02:17 and the standards of the church on the same issue, 02:21 they still want to remain in that culture. 02:24 So consequently the gay agenda 02:27 to normalize homosexuality 02:30 is now being put upon the church itself 02:34 by gay organizations, 02:36 by lobbyists, by petitions, 02:39 by articles in publications. 02:41 And the emphasis seems to be 02:44 to get the church to change its position on the issue 02:48 rather than helping the sinner change his behavior. 02:53 Okay. 02:54 So what do you think are some of the expectations 02:56 of the gay community 02:58 of what they will experience in the church, 03:00 and in membership, and in leadership? 03:02 Well, because of this 03:04 hypersensitive perception of rejection 03:06 which I see, observe throughout the gay community, 03:12 the gay people who are in the Christian culture 03:16 want to retain their membership. 03:18 They don't want to be put out of the church. 03:21 That's rejection. 03:22 They don't want to go through church discipline. 03:25 But as they are members of the church, 03:27 they also want to be 03:28 incorporated into leadership positions. 03:32 And now with the Supreme Court ruling 03:34 and the climate such as it is today, 03:38 they want to be able to have gay marriages 03:41 and to have their gay families accepted. 03:46 So basically, it is to have the church 03:50 accept the normalization of homosexuality. 03:56 So as you're talking about acceptance, 03:58 it reminds me of a flyer 04:00 that I saw for a church and it said, 04:03 you know, "Come as you are, you are welcome. 04:05 Gays and homosexuals are wholly accepted by God." 04:09 And I'm just wondering, 04:11 do you think that there's anything wrong 04:12 with that wording on a flyer like that? 04:16 Well, there is a lot of truth to this statement. 04:19 I think it says, 04:21 "Come, you are wholly loved and accepted." 04:24 And so there is a lot of truth. 04:26 But having been a bartender in the past, 04:29 I know that there's a lot of good 04:31 in certain drinks, mixed drinks. 04:32 But if you have a little bit of poison, 04:35 you can get drunk on it. 04:36 So the statement about you are being wholly loved, 04:41 yes, "Come as you are." 04:43 Yes, absolutely. 04:45 But accepted? 04:46 That's a little bit different. 04:48 Because God will accept us 04:51 as we are into a school of transformation, 04:55 a school of discipleship. 04:57 But the Bible doesn't give blanket acceptance 05:00 to open to sin. 05:03 For example, if a couple wants to adopt a child, 05:08 they adopt a child that they love. 05:10 But they don't adopt the child 05:12 and then leave it in the same condition 05:13 that they found the child in. 05:15 They will give it new clothes, and good bedding, 05:19 and healthy food, and an education. 05:23 So if we're adopted into the family of Christ, 05:27 we are accepted by Christ, 05:28 but we're accepted into an environment 05:31 where we can be transformed and have a better life. 05:34 That's right. 05:36 And, you know, Ron, 05:37 that makes me think of 1 John 1:9. 05:40 Because I think we hear 05:42 that God forgives you, God forgives you. 05:45 But there's no give and take there 05:47 for a lot of the Christian church. 05:49 And, you know, he says if we... 05:51 In 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, 05:54 He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us." 05:56 So we have to walk with God in this experience. 05:59 It's just a give and take, 06:01 just like any other relationship. 06:02 Right, in that text you're mentioning, 06:04 it seems like many Christians 06:06 put the period in the middle of the sentence. 06:08 Yes. 06:09 Now "If we confess our sins, He is faithful 06:11 and just to forgive us of our sins." 06:13 Period. 06:14 But the rest of the verse says, 06:16 "And to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 06:20 In 2 Corinthians 5:17, 06:22 one of our favorite texts of scripture, 06:26 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, 06:27 he is a new creature, 06:28 old things have passed away, 06:30 all things have become new." 06:31 So these are things 06:33 that are overlooked in this flyer. 06:36 It's just come as you are, God loves you, 06:38 and accepts you the way you are. 06:40 And we need to clarify, 06:42 God does not accept us the way we are. 06:44 He accepts us where we are 06:47 to give us a better way, to lead us into a better way. 06:50 He does love and accept us, but to a better life. 06:53 That's right. 06:55 And I'm glad He does 06:56 because I would not have wanted to stay where I was 06:59 before I knew Him. 07:01 So in that same flyer, Ron, I know that it says 07:04 that the Bible never mentions homosexuality 07:07 or sexual orientation. 07:09 Is that a correct statement? 07:12 I found that just amazing to see that statement. 07:15 But then I realized 07:17 if they're quoting from the King James Version, 07:19 it's true. 07:21 The King James Version 07:22 does not use the word homosexual. 07:24 But it does use the word pedophile or marijuana 07:28 or cigarettes or alcohol or all kinds of things. 07:31 But what the Bible does it spells out behavior, 07:34 so that no matter how language changes 07:37 or terms change from generation to generation, 07:40 the behavior is still spelled out. 07:42 But one thing I did notice. 07:45 All of the other translations do use the word homosexual. 07:49 In fact, that flyer that we're discussing 07:53 is quoting from the NIV. 07:55 And if you look at for example, 07:58 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 08:03 the NIV says, "Do not be deceived, 08:08 neither male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 08:12 will inherit the kingdom of God. 08:15 And that is what some of you were." 08:17 So the NIV does use the word homosexual. 08:20 And I went through a number of translations 08:24 all of which do use the word homosexual. 08:27 So it is very clearly mentioned in the Bible. 08:30 That's right. That's right. 08:31 Thank you, Ron. 08:32 So shifting gears here, 08:34 I'm going to just mention a petition 08:37 that circulated throughout the church, 08:39 and it opened with this statement, 08:42 "Of all the distinctives, that might define Christians, 08:45 Jesus identified only one thing 08:47 that will distinguish His followers." 08:50 It quotes John 13:34 and 35 that say, 08:54 "A new command I give you: love one another. 08:57 As I have loved you, 08:59 so that you must love one another. 09:02 By this, everyone will know that you are my disciples 09:07 if you love one another." 09:08 Is this really the one thing 09:10 that will distinguish Christ followers? 09:13 No. 09:15 To me that is really a quantum leap 09:16 and we have to understand here the whole purpose 09:20 of these petitions and flyers 09:22 really is to make the LGBT issue a non issue 09:28 within the church. 09:29 But the command that is given here 09:33 is not the only distinctive that we are given. 09:38 For example... 09:42 in Luke 18, Luke 10, 09:46 and in the story of the jailer of Philippi in Acts 16, 09:51 there are three stories 09:53 where the question is asked what must I do to be saved 09:56 or what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 09:59 And love is certainly one of those things. 10:01 The first thing is to love God supremely, 10:04 love your neighbor as yourself. 10:05 In other words, love and be saved. 10:08 But the second answer 10:10 that was given like to the rich young ruler 10:12 was, "Keep the commandments." 10:14 So Jesus says, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." 10:18 So that is something 10:20 that distinguishes God's followers. 10:22 And to the jailer of Philippi, 10:25 he was told, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ 10:28 and thou shall be saved." 10:30 Well, Lord Jesus Christ, 10:31 if you use the definitions for those words. 10:36 Paul is basically saying believe on Jehovah, 10:39 the great I am, the creator, the self-existent one, 10:41 anointed, Messiah, Christ, 10:44 anointed by the Holy Spirit 10:46 to be your personal Savior from sin. 10:48 Jesus means Savior, 10:50 and then you should be saved. 10:52 So the Bible has many identifying characteristics 10:58 of His people, of God's people. 11:00 There's not just one thing. 11:01 However, love is the guiding principle. 11:06 But the text that they're quoting 11:07 makes it sound like, 11:11 "If you just love somebody, 11:13 then you're a follower of Christ." 11:15 And that's not what the text is saying at all. 11:18 Amen. Amen. 11:19 So in the same petition, 11:22 they were stating that the church has failed 11:24 to demonstrate the Christ-like love to the LGBT community. 11:28 And they called the church 11:31 to begin to demonstrate that love 11:34 through five different points. 11:36 And if I could run, 11:37 I would just like to read those 11:39 and then have you respond to each one of those. 11:41 Okay? Okay. 11:43 So the first one is, 11:44 "Acknowledge that a homosexual orientation 11:46 is most often determined before birth, 11:49 and, or very soon after 11:51 by a complex combination 11:53 of physiological and environmental factors 11:56 that are beyond the individual's control." 12:01 This is a very false assumption. 12:04 And, but first I would like to say 12:06 about this whole petition. 12:08 Scripture is never quoted. 12:10 There is nothing in the entire petition 12:13 that refers to the Word of God. 12:15 Wow. 12:16 And so here again we see Christian culture 12:21 but not Christian faith. 12:23 The Word of God is not being looked upon as the authority. 12:29 And so to call for the church to acknowledge this, 12:33 first of all, it's not scientific. 12:36 So it's calling for the church 12:38 to acknowledge something that is false. 12:41 It's not truth. 12:43 And as Christians, we are looking for truth. 12:48 It talks about homosexual orientation 12:50 as though it is something that we're born with. 12:53 And having been a pilot in the past, 12:57 I know that orientation 12:59 is determined by the direction that I'm going. 13:04 If I am oriented on self, 13:06 I'll never land where I'm supposed to land. 13:09 Orientation is a destiny. 13:12 It's not a condition. 13:15 And if we just look at the definition 13:17 in the dictionary. 13:18 Orientation is something that is chosen. 13:22 And then we have that good word, reorientation. 13:25 So yes, the church cannot possibly acknowledge this 13:28 unless it is acknowledging falsehood. 13:33 I really appreciated what you said, Ron. 13:34 You said orientation is a destiny, 13:38 not a condition. 13:39 Yes. That's a profound thought. 13:40 Wow. Right. 13:42 We focus upon our destiny, 13:44 not upon who we are but where we're going. 13:48 Right. Yes. 13:49 Well, thank you for sharing that. 13:51 Okay, so number two is 13:52 "Reject as a form of violence 13:55 any programs that attempt to change or redirect 13:59 one's sexual orientation. 14:00 Recognizing that orientation is highly unlikely to change 14:05 and that such attempts have caused deep trauma 14:08 and even lead to becoming suicidal." 14:12 To me, this request is to ask, 14:17 it's asking the church to reject 14:20 the mission of the church 14:22 as a form of violence. 14:24 When Jesus says, "All power is given unto Me 14:27 in heaven and earth. 14:29 Go ye therefore 14:31 and teach all nations baptizing them 14:34 in the name of the Father and the Son 14:35 and the Holy Spirit." 14:37 Teaching them to observe all things 14:40 whatsoever I have commanded you. 14:43 That's not violence. 14:45 1 John 4:8 tells us that "God is love." 14:48 Everything that God is asking of us 14:51 is as a loving Heavenly Father. 14:54 And to reject as a form of violence, 14:56 the very thing that the plan of salvation 14:58 is all about to me is a little bit startling. 15:02 It's a startling request. 15:06 It mentions here the attempts at suicide. 15:13 The percentage or the rate of suicide attempts 15:16 is very high within the gay community. 15:18 That's right. 15:19 That's without the gospel, Danielle. 15:22 We should not blame the gospel 15:25 and the presenting of the gospel. 15:27 For someone attempting or committing suicide, 15:31 they're doing that without the gospel. 15:33 Now if they do hear the gospel 15:35 and they do hear the invitation of Jesus, 15:37 and they reject it 15:39 and continue down that path, 15:41 it's not the fault of the message 15:43 or the messenger. 15:45 It is the fault of rejection. 15:47 And, you know, in the gay community, 15:49 there's this perception of rejection. 15:52 How must God feel? 15:54 He is constantly being rejected. 15:57 His word is being rejected. 15:59 We need to be hypersensitive to His feelings, 16:02 and His emotions, 16:04 and His expressed will 16:06 especially if we are Christian, 16:07 and God is number one on the throne of our hearts. 16:10 Amen. Amen. 16:11 All right. 16:13 Number three, "Act deliberately and decisively 16:16 to prevent judgmental and condemning attitudes 16:19 and acts against homosexual individuals." 16:23 Well, here again this is very similar to number two. 16:27 Because the work of the gospel 16:33 or those of us 16:34 who are presenting the gospel to someone 16:36 is really an act of love 16:38 and they're asking us 16:40 to prevent judgmental and condemning attitudes. 16:46 What we are presenting is considered to be judgmental. 16:50 Why? 16:51 Because it crosses the natural heart. 16:56 It is because He's being rejected. 16:58 You know, Danielle, when I was trying to study 17:00 my way out of the gay life, I did not... 17:03 I don't remember ever being caught up with semantics. 17:07 If someone used, I mean, I understood what they meant. 17:11 And to be limited by the words that we can say, 17:15 the phrases that we can say, 17:17 because they might be offensive. 17:19 I never found any of that offensive to me 17:22 because I was searching for truth. 17:24 And if they used words 17:26 that I might not have chosen to use, 17:29 I got the message, I understand English, 17:32 I understand where they were coming from. 17:35 And again, I don't think that the gospel should be portrayed 17:40 as judgmental and condemning against homosexuals. 17:44 Otherwise we label the infinite work of Jesus Christ Himself 17:48 as judgmental and condemning. 17:50 And we know it's not. 17:52 He says, "Neither do I condemn you. 17:54 Go and sin no more." 17:56 Now there are people 17:57 that are putting forth these types of requests 18:01 that love the part of Jesus words, 18:04 "Neither do I condemn you." 18:06 Oh, that's the gospel. 18:08 But don't speak the last half of it. 18:10 When you say 18:11 and I've heard them actually say, 18:13 "go and sin no more" is being used as hate speech. 18:16 Wow. 18:17 Those are Jesus' words. 18:19 God is love. 18:20 And so it is not true love to withhold this message. 18:26 It is what I call a cheap love. 18:29 Okay. 18:30 So number four on this list says, 18:32 "Provide our homosexual sisters and brothers 18:34 not only a place in our pews 18:36 but also a space on our platforms 18:39 allowing all of the gifts of God 18:41 that God has given them to be used to honor and serve Him." 18:46 You know where my mind goes immediately there. 18:49 I think the most gifted being 18:51 that was ever created was Lucifer, right? 18:56 He was like the choir director of heaven. 18:58 He was gorgeous. He was talented. 19:01 He had so much to offer 19:03 in the service and worship of God in heaven. 19:07 But what did he do with those gifts? 19:11 He used all of his talents to deceive and to diminish 19:17 the perception of who God is. 19:22 And with the pride, and the selfishness, 19:25 and the covetousness that was in his heart 19:27 with his self serving attitude, 19:31 he took all of those wonderful gifts 19:33 and he deceived a third of the angels of heaven 19:36 and they ended up being cast out of heaven. 19:41 Those same gifts he still has, 19:44 but I don't want to invite those gifts into the church. 19:48 And so just because we find a gay person 19:50 that is very gifted, very talented 19:53 does not mean that should be brought into the church. 19:56 I know when I was living in Southern California, 20:00 and I was being introduced to a Christian gay organization. 20:05 And as a way to bring me into the organization 20:08 and bring me back into the church, 20:10 they started inviting me to play the pipe organ 20:14 for one of the churches there. 20:16 I was actually invited to become 20:18 one of the regular organists for that church. 20:22 And I played a couple of times 20:25 to fill in for the organist who was gone. 20:28 But I refused to take that position, why? 20:31 Because I was not a Christian. 20:34 I did not feel that I had anything 20:37 to really offer to worship 20:39 if I was denying the God that was to be worshipped. 20:43 And so I turned down, you know, that invitation. 20:49 I really find no biblical basis whatsoever for such a request 20:54 that we bring openly practicing sinners into church 20:59 because they're talented, 21:01 because that will be used by the enemy of souls 21:05 to actually pull people away from God, 21:08 because imagine our children in church 21:11 and they see someone very gifted 21:13 and they become very enamored with this person 21:16 that is so gifted and talented in music or whatever, 21:20 and then they understand 21:21 that these people are living apart 21:23 from the ways of God. 21:25 Well, if it's okay for these people 21:29 to behave in this way 21:30 and yet they're in the church, 21:32 then maybe I can too. 21:34 And I think it would be a stumbling block 21:36 for many people in the church if we lead that in. 21:39 See John the Baptist 21:43 called for those who wanted to be part of the church 21:46 to bring forth fruit, meat for repentance. 21:50 And this request here is not about repentance. 21:54 It's about being allowed to participate 21:57 in the church culture 21:59 without embracing the tenets, 22:01 and the doctrines, and the faith of that church. 22:04 That would be a big mistake. 22:05 Yeah. 22:06 So it sounds to me like really what you're saying 22:09 is the hinge pin to the decision has to do 22:14 with the heart of the person who's coming into the church. 22:18 Are they there in a submissive towards the Lord, 22:21 manner, they're humble, 22:23 willing to learn 22:24 or are they there with their own, 22:26 you know, standards 22:28 and not willing to move on 22:30 those to walk with the Lord and follow Him. 22:33 Am I hearing that there? Yes. 22:35 We've heard the illustration 22:37 that the church is like a hospital. 22:39 And so we have an open door policy 22:43 for people to come to worship. 22:45 However, membership is something that is very sacred 22:48 because with membership you have the right to voice. 22:51 You have the right to vote. 22:53 You have the opportunity to hold office. 22:56 And that needs to be reserved 22:59 for those who are accepting the Jesus as their mentor, 23:04 their master, their Lord, 23:07 and are willing to enter the school of discipleship, 23:10 and to be transformed into the image of Christ. 23:13 But yes, by all means, 23:14 they should be allowed to come and worship, 23:16 but not bring in a gay agenda 23:20 that works against the very gospel 23:22 that we're trying to share. 23:25 Right. Okay. 23:27 So number five this last point here, it says, 23:29 "Fully integrate lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, 23:32 and intersex members of the Adventist church 23:36 into the life of the church community." 23:41 Well, we see in history 23:43 when society fully integrated homosexuality into the culture, 23:48 the demise of Sodom and Gomorrah, 23:50 the demise of Greece, the demise of Rome, 23:54 and so to fully integrate 23:56 is going to bring down that very church culture. 24:02 And secondly, 24:04 to make such a resolution in the name of Jesus 24:06 is to ask His blessing upon something 24:09 which He has very clearly condemned in His word. 24:14 So now we've looked at these five points, 24:16 you've responded to them. 24:18 Ron, do you see our church catering to these expectations? 24:21 Well, I see the Christian church, 24:23 at large, in many instances catering. 24:27 We have an example in the Southern Baptist Church 24:33 for example, there's a headline 24:35 that I have here from just January. 24:37 "Southern Baptist churches start to ordain homosexuals 24:41 and perform same sex marriage rituals." 24:45 I have talked to people who have told me 24:48 that their churches have split over the gay issue, 24:51 Baptist, and then Presbyterian. 24:54 Within our own denomination, 24:56 I have seen churches that are incorporating 25:00 these requests into their church. 25:04 And for me as a gay person in the past, 25:07 visiting one of these churches I was alarmed 25:10 because I was not finding sanctuary, 25:12 I was not finding salvation, 25:15 I was finding a tolerance 25:18 of what I was rather than a remedy for what I was. 25:22 Okay. 25:24 So with this culture as it is now, 25:27 what do you think the church's response really should be 25:29 towards this whole agenda 25:31 and its focus on Christianity and the church? 25:35 Well, remembering that God is love, 25:38 everything that He asks, everything that He says 25:40 is as a loving heavenly Father. 25:42 And He tells us very plainly to cry aloud, 25:45 spare not, 25:46 lift up thy voice like a trumpet 25:48 and show my people their transgression 25:50 in the house of Jacob their sins. 25:52 Why? Because He wants to save us from our sins. 25:56 So it is... 25:59 We are actually counseled to call sin by its right name 26:03 because we cannot overcome 26:05 something that we cannot define. 26:08 So it is a loving, caring message 26:12 to call sin by its right name 26:15 and then offer the remedy for that sin. 26:18 So as a church, we need to be faithful 26:20 to our high calling 26:22 and not give in to political correctness. 26:25 Amen. Amen. 26:26 So is there anything else that you would say 26:29 to expound on that good solid biblical guidance 26:32 for dealing with this in a compassionate way? 26:35 Well, again the Bible is very explicit. 26:38 Building on that thought that God is love, 26:41 1 John 4:8, 26:43 then Jesus goes on to say, if you love me, 26:47 then Jesus who died for us gave His life for us 26:51 while we were yet strangers and enemies. 26:53 "If you love me, in return keep my commandments." 26:57 If you love me, "Thou shall not lie with mankind, 27:00 as with the mankind, as with womankind, 27:03 is abomination." 27:04 I like to put that in front of the commandments. 27:07 If you love me, "Do not commit adultery." 27:09 If you love me, "If a man also lie with mankind, 27:12 as he lies with the woman, 27:13 both of them have committed an abomination." 27:15 If you love me, you won't do that. 27:18 In light of Malachi 3:6 where he says, 27:21 "I am the Lord, I change not." 27:24 By what authority do we understand this issue 27:28 any differently than the Bible 27:31 which is to be our rule of faith and practice? 27:34 God is not willing that any should perish 27:37 but that all should come to repentance. 27:39 Amen. Amen. 27:40 Well, thank you so much 27:42 for what you've shared with us today, Ron. 27:43 I know it's been a blessing to me 27:45 and my prayer is that it's been a blessing 27:47 to all of you as well. 27:48 So join us next time on Pure Choices. |
Revised 2017-08-03