Participants: Wayne Blakely (Host), Michael Carducci, Ron Woolsey, Danielle Harrison
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000123A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:40 Welcome to Pure Choices. 00:41 I'm Wayne Blakely from Coming Out Ministries, 00:43 and I'm here with all of my colleagues today, 00:46 Ron Woolsey, Danielle Harrison and Mike Carducci. 00:50 I welcome to each and every one of you. 00:52 Thank you. Thanks, Wayne. 00:54 You know I suddenly had a conversation with some people 00:58 that had a different view about homosexuality than I did. 01:01 And one the questions that I ended up asking them, 01:04 if we're fine just the way we are with same sex attraction 01:09 and finding someone who we want to love 01:12 and have a monogamous relationship. 01:16 What do we need to redeem it for? 01:18 If the word of God says something completely different, 01:20 how can I settle in the idea 01:23 that I'm fine just the way I am. 01:25 And, you know, I couldn't get a response to that question, 01:30 and today as we share our testimonies 01:34 and we talk to people in churches 01:37 and as many places as will invite us. 01:40 We're seen as some, like something different, 01:44 something that set apart. 01:45 And I found in John 15:19, it says, 01:49 "If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. 01:53 As it is, you do not belong to the world, 01:56 but I have chosen you out of the world, 01:59 and that's why the world hates you." 02:02 So I want to talk today 02:04 about how it is that we're set apart 02:07 and what can we say to the person 02:10 who may be never ventured out into a life like ours, 02:14 may be they never left the church, 02:16 but they come to us and they say, you know, 02:18 I want to have what you guys have. 02:21 What is it that you have? 02:23 And as we explore this, 02:26 I want to talk to you individually 02:28 about your relationship outside of Coming Out Ministries. 02:32 So today, Ron, 02:34 what would you say it means to you as been set apart? 02:39 Well, I have been redeemed from the life that I was living 02:43 which I discovered was total bondage. 02:46 When I... And who showed you that? 02:48 What? 02:49 Who showed you that that it was total bondage? 02:51 Well, I realized it was total bondage 02:53 when I tried to come out of it. 02:54 First of all when in going into it, 02:57 I went into the gay life and I left the Lord, 03:01 because I wanted to, 03:02 I was just tired of all the thou shalt not. 03:05 So I wanted freedom from the law. 03:08 But we're told in the Bible 03:09 that the law of God is the law of liberty. 03:12 So in getting freedom from the law of liberty, 03:18 I was really finding freedom from freedom 03:21 which equals bondage. 03:23 And after years of living in that life, 03:26 I realized that I wanted out of the bondage. 03:29 And it wasn't until I started trying to come out of it 03:32 that I realized how entangle I was. 03:36 And it was absolutely impossible for me 03:38 to come out of that on my own. 03:40 A lot of people who read just certain portions of the Bible 03:45 see it as restrictive like, 03:47 oh, God doesn't want me to be happy 03:49 because I can't do what is natural to me. 03:52 And so, we get the idea 03:54 that what's natural to us must be right, 03:56 and then in that I think 03:58 it's where so many people adopt the idea 04:01 that they don't even think that it's coming from Satan, 04:05 they don't recognize it, 04:06 and so the church didn't come and get us. 04:10 And I think a little bit about the church today 04:12 in terms of being like Israel are or being a little bit 04:18 like Laodicea that they're sleeping a bit 04:20 and not recognizing the true value of God's word 04:24 and His great love for us. 04:27 And why He would ask us to give up some of the things 04:30 that do come natural to us. 04:32 Danielle, I mean, your life was much different 04:36 than it is today, and people can see that 04:38 by looking at a contrast picture of you 04:41 from how you used to dress, 04:42 as to how you would wear dress now. 04:45 And some people would say, 04:46 oh, look at her, she is so modest, 04:47 she doesn't have the personality 04:49 and the flash and the flair that she had. 04:52 You know, why? 04:54 Why? 04:56 Well, you know, I will answer through an illustration. 05:03 I went to a youth conference and I had been praying 05:08 as I did every time I went to mea that God would give me 05:11 a divine appointment their at the lunch table. 05:14 And as I came and I sat down at this table, 05:17 there were a few younger girls and then an older lady, 05:21 and all the girls were sitting around 05:23 talking to this older woman. 05:25 And they were just chatting amongst themselves 05:28 and they acknowledged me when I came and sat down, 05:30 but they just continued on with their conversation, 05:33 and our meal was almost over 05:35 and I was just kind of like okay, Lord, 05:37 well, you know, so much for, you know, 05:40 a divine appointment at this lunch table, 05:42 because it just seem that they were kind of involved 05:45 and I wasn't going to be brought in at the conversation. 05:47 Well, the Lord did bring it around, 05:49 and I started talking with those young girls, 05:52 and to make a long story short, 05:53 I ended up giving them a little flyer 05:55 that I had printed up 05:57 to share with some universities and academies 06:00 to hopefully have opportunity to speak to the students. 06:04 But I just fell inspired to give them 06:06 one of my little flyers, 06:08 and one of the girls at the table, 06:09 when she saw that before and after picture, 06:11 she looked at it 06:12 and she looked up at me with this look on her face, 06:17 and I'll never forget the expression 06:20 and she could not believe 06:22 that I used to be the person that I was. 06:24 She said, when you came and you sat down, 06:26 I saw this piece and this just joy 06:32 that was shining out of you, 06:34 and she said when I looked at you, 06:36 and I just saw this atmosphere around you, 06:38 I thought to myself, that's what we can have 06:40 when we truly walk with Jesus. 06:43 And so for her to see that in me 06:45 and then to see who I used to be, 06:46 she was utterly dumfounded 06:49 and I think that is really the essence of why, 06:52 you know, because before I came to the Lord, 06:55 I thought that I was liberated in walking in my own way 06:57 and making my own decisions. 07:00 But I realized very quickly that I was enslaved in that, 07:03 I wasn't happy that my depression only got worse, 07:07 my anxiety attacks got worse. 07:10 I started struggling with 07:11 eating disorders and multiple addictions, 07:13 and my life just spiraled completely out of control. 07:17 And I think that's why God is calling us to be set apart, 07:22 and to walk in a new way 07:24 because He wants us to experience life the way 07:27 that He designed it to be experienced. 07:30 And when we walk in the ways of the world, 07:33 that's what we are losing out on. 07:34 And what we're receiving in exchange is not the picture 07:39 that Satan has so masterfully painted us to think it is. 07:43 And, you know, I know you today, 07:45 and I didn't know you then. 07:47 But in the pictures that I've seen, I see a flair. 07:51 The only word that comes to my mind is, 07:53 it's a bit of a demonic flair because it just had that, 07:58 you know, a little bit of an evil twinge, 08:00 like looking out of the corner of your eye. 08:02 And yet today, I see you and I know you, 08:06 and a little about your walk with God, 08:08 and I see a sparkle in your eye 08:10 and I see genuine love 08:12 that transcends to the person that you're speaking to. 08:17 And sometimes that I'm fortunate is me. 08:21 And I'm blessed by how you interact with God today 08:25 and a little bit about how close that walk is 08:30 and I'll come back to that. 08:32 Mike, there is a verse in God's word that says, 08:36 it's Jeremiah 1: 5, this says, 08:38 "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you." 08:41 Do you really believe that? 08:44 Absolutely, one of the things 08:46 that I find so intimated about God now, 08:49 I didn't understand Him before, I couldn't relate to Him, 08:53 because I related to God as I related to my father. 08:55 I rejected my father before I was even conscious, 08:58 so I wanted nothing to do with him 08:59 and nothing he did even interested me. 09:02 So, as I grow up, I thought, well, God must be like my dad 09:05 indifferent, arbitrary, judgmental. 09:08 And so it wasn't until after I begun this journey, 09:10 an intimate journey with Jesus Christ, 09:12 that I, as I saw Jesus' longsuffering, 09:15 as I saw Jesus love for me and His compassion. 09:20 And then I also read in John 14:9, 09:21 it says, "If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." 09:24 So it was like, it took until I was 47 years old, 09:27 before God could introduce Himself to me as my father, 09:30 but now that I read the word 09:32 and now that I understand a greater picture of the God 09:34 that I thought I knew, that I knew nothing about. 09:38 I can understand that, yeah, before the earth was made, 09:41 He knew me and He saved me to live, 09:43 you know, during this time. 09:45 And again, I didn't know you, none of us know each other 09:49 when we lived in a life that was much different than this. 09:53 But today, I see you share 09:56 and I see the contrast of the relationship that was, 10:00 that you struggled with your father, 10:03 and then I see you interact with people 10:07 that are drawn to your testimony. 10:09 And people that contact you, you know, often to get counsel, 10:13 and you're so patient with them, 10:16 and so loving, and so kind, and so articulate, 10:21 and you help people understand. 10:23 I see God working through you, 10:26 that they begin to see the values 10:28 that God has for them. 10:30 You have a presentation that I always, 10:34 when we're doing something, group together, 10:37 I never get tired of hearing, 10:39 and that's called the lost father. 10:42 And so can you tell me that at one point 10:45 you were a part of the world 10:47 and how you see yourself set apart from the world, 10:50 and how did you came to love that heavenly Father? 10:55 Wow, Wayne, you know, if we had more time, 10:58 I could probably elaborate more, 10:59 but just of the top of my head, I wanted only what I wanted. 11:05 And living in that life I'd learned that 11:08 because of all the rejection that I'd experienced 11:11 that it was a doggy dog world, 11:12 and you've got to sink your teeth in 11:14 and get everything that you can get 11:16 because you will get nothing. 11:18 And so then coming into a relationship 11:20 with Jesus Christ and then learning 11:21 that I'm supposed to view myself as least 11:24 and to put other people first. 11:26 You know, thanks, Wayne, 11:27 for all those glowing attributes, 11:29 but it's taking the whole long time 11:32 to learn to be more patient and to learn to be more loving 11:34 because I was only in it for what I could get. 11:38 And so as I... 11:40 Here comes, as I behold who Jesus Christ was, 11:44 and as I see His unlimited supply of patients for me 11:49 and His love for me 11:51 and as that draws in me into Him, 11:54 then I realized that He says in His word, 11:56 He says. I'm faithful and just. 12:00 I wasn't faithful or just. 12:02 But His faithfulness and His justification drew me to Him 12:06 and help me to desire to even want to be more like Him. 12:11 But while, Wayne, it, 12:12 it's taken years and I'm not there yet. 12:15 I'm familiar with it. 12:17 The process it seems long, 12:19 I think it seems long to each of us individually 12:22 and we don't recognize the changes 12:26 to people from the outside, 12:30 you know, and I noticed this 12:33 when I was younger, and I would go 12:34 to various presentations or specialty groups 12:39 that would come to our church or something, 12:41 I would go, I just want to be like them, 12:43 that's just so wonderful. 12:44 And it looks like that, you know, 12:46 that everything is just, it's just perfections. 12:50 And yet each of us know that we struggle, 12:54 we have struggled along the way 12:56 as we have walked with each other, 12:58 that it's like a family. 13:01 And there are various attributes, 13:04 and there are various things in families 13:06 that some things you like and some things you don't like. 13:10 And it is been interesting to me 13:13 how God has walked with us, 13:19 and how He hasn't let us down, 13:22 and that He holds us together. 13:24 And we have hit some hills and some valleys 13:29 and, you know we, I know the enemy is totally 13:33 after our ministry like this. 13:34 It's really one of may be two, 13:37 that I know in this denomination. 13:41 For the great length of time that they were set silence, 13:44 all of the sudden God raises up this little army, 13:47 you know, it's like the mod squad for Jesus, 13:51 and we go together and we share, 13:55 and we do so joyfully. 13:57 But at times there have been tensions, 13:59 and yet God has personally shown me that 14:06 if my focus is on myself, 14:10 I'm going to miss out on the real gift, 14:14 the real value of what he wants to do in my life, 14:18 and I think He has revealed that on to each 14:22 and everyone of us. 14:24 So I do believe that we are called to be separate 14:28 and to come apart. 14:30 I know that we've struggled to get to some places 14:32 where we would like to go. 14:34 And that's to speak with people that are young, 14:40 that when we were young, 14:42 we so desperately wanted to hear from people like us 14:45 that got some answers and some solutions. 14:49 And so today we have on campuses, 14:52 on many Christian campuses, 14:53 you know, these straight gay alliances, 14:56 and the people have come out on campus 14:59 and identified as gay, 15:01 but I think what's missing is that, 15:02 while they have a love for God. 15:06 In many cases, this is certainly the truth. 15:08 They do love God, 15:10 but what they haven't been able to come to grips with 15:14 is their feelings versus God's word. 15:18 And for some reason 15:20 it seems like many of our institutions 15:22 have either feared or failed to go forward and say, 15:29 here is who you really are in Jesus Christ, 15:31 while you attempted it, 15:33 it doesn't make you as though you are someone 15:37 who lived in this 15:38 an that simply did the temptation itself 15:40 doesn't have to identify you. 15:42 Each of us identify 15:44 as new creatures in Jesus Christ, 15:45 and for some reason in certain places 15:47 that holds us at arms distance. 15:50 And what I so desperately want to do, 15:53 and I pray that God will open the doors, 15:55 so that we can do is to go into these places 15:59 and say Jesus is the safe place, you know. 16:03 It's all about finding out 16:05 the fact that Jesus loves you so very, very much. 16:08 He knows what you struggle with, 16:10 and He has solutions. 16:11 Are you interested in the solution? 16:13 Are you interested in finding that? 16:15 While you have same sex attraction, 16:18 or while you might be immersed in pornography, 16:21 or while you might be having pre-marital sex. 16:26 You don't have to identify on these things 16:29 that there is actually a way out. 16:31 God is true to His word, He provides a way out, 16:35 and that we can all become new creatures in Jesus Christ. 16:39 And as James 5:16 says that 16:41 we can go to somebody else and say, 16:43 you know I really struggled with something, 16:45 and I need you to pray for me, 16:46 because here James 5:16 says that "healing is mine." 16:51 I know in your conversion, Mike, that you said, 16:54 "It is up to you God to reveal Yourself to me. 16:56 I have come to you. 16:58 Fine, I'm giving my heart to You, 16:59 I repent, but now You got show me You. 17:02 And I find that Jesus will do that, 17:05 when we hold Jesus to a promise 17:07 that He has given to us, 17:09 He will not let us down. 17:10 Wayne, He delights to reveal His promises, doesn't He? 17:14 He is just looking for an opportunity to bless us, 17:17 to bestow those things on us. 17:19 He is not wanting to withhold anything good from me. 17:23 But the thing that He waits for as Danielle says, 17:25 He is a gentleman. 17:27 You know, He is waiting for the opportunity 17:29 or the invitation, 17:30 or maybe the response to the invitation 17:32 because whenever we open up our heart to God, 17:34 it's because He invited us first. 17:36 Right. 17:38 I came to the person who is suffering. 17:41 I was talking to someone recently, 17:44 who is dedicated to God 17:46 and we were talking about failure, 17:49 and if someone falls, 17:50 and how devastating that can be sometimes, 17:54 because the enemy makes you feel worthless. 17:56 You know that now you need just to go back 17:58 and live the life that you once lived, 18:01 and that there is no hope for you. 18:04 But the words of God tells us, wait a minute hold on, 18:07 I love you 18:09 and that I even advised to forgive 70 times 7. 18:13 And so God is showing that in His ways, 18:18 is He is always there ready to forgive 18:21 if we will just seek His forgiveness, 18:24 He will help us get back up on our feet, 18:26 and walk with Him 18:28 that He is our biggest fan, you know. 18:31 So it's absolutely amazing. 18:34 I was considering with this wave of ISIS, 18:40 and you know, and like the racial cleansing, 18:43 and all the different things that they tried that, 18:45 you know, people get upset with each other about, 18:47 and people start killing each other over it. 18:50 That we began to, have seen how much 18:54 we and our message is much different 18:58 than the trend of the world today. 19:00 And actually a little bit different than 19:02 the trend in some 19:03 of our larger denominations today 19:05 who are just saying, "Ah, it just doesn't matter." 19:08 So as we become more peculiar, 19:12 and we began to think about some of the persecutions 19:16 that are even coming from within. 19:20 Can you tell me how you see that, Ron? 19:23 What did... 19:24 You know, persecution is coming, 19:26 how are you gonna respond to that? 19:29 To persecution? 19:30 Let for instance, 19:32 you claim to be a new creation in Jesus Christ, 19:35 you don't live by your feelings anymore. 19:37 You're saying that gay behavior is sinful behavior, 19:40 that's just warped. 19:42 Well, if you're talking about feelings and emotions 19:46 you were talking early about. 19:49 Letting feelings and emotions identify who we are. 19:52 You know, a murderer that comes to Jesus has to learn 19:56 to overcome his feeling and emotions, 20:00 and a thief has to overcome his feelings and emotions, 20:05 and an adulterer needs to get control 20:07 of his feelings and emotions, 20:09 it's same with the pedophiler or any other sinful behavior. 20:15 But with the gay issue, 20:16 it seems that feelings and emotions 20:19 are supposed to identify us. 20:22 But when you're talking about persecution, 20:24 we know that all who will live godly 20:27 in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 20:30 And persecution comes in many different forms, 20:33 and some times we meet up with opposition. 20:36 We don't think of it as persecution, 20:38 but it's kind of a beginning of that thing, 20:41 when you are meeting up 20:42 with slander and false reports, 20:47 misrepresentations of who you are. 20:49 Those are forms, 20:51 they are light forms of persecution. 20:54 But how we deal with that now 20:56 I think will determine how we will deal with 20:58 greater persecution as it comes later. 21:01 And we must love our enemies and pray for them, 21:05 and just like Jesus prayed, 21:07 "Father forgive them 21:08 for they know not what they do." 21:10 We need to have that same attitude 21:12 when we are being wronged, 21:14 misrepresented and slandered, and yes, even persecuted. 21:19 How about you, Danielle? 21:20 You know I... 21:22 As I look at the political climate, 21:24 as it surrounds the all LGPT wave, 21:29 that's been moving across our country. 21:34 You know, we already have seen 21:35 a level of persecution with the, you know, 21:39 the bakery is the one that always comes to my mind 21:42 that was closed down 21:43 because they wouldn't do the gay wedding cake, 21:46 and now basically everything 21:48 that family owned has been taken from them. 21:50 And, you know, 21:51 we see anything other than complete acceptance 21:56 considered bigotry and hate, 21:58 and so we no longer have 22:02 really the freedom to hold our own views. 22:05 I think that religious freedoms 22:07 are being taken away from us. 22:09 In the storm 22:12 that we are facing here on this topic, 22:15 and so, we've seen the persecution began already, 22:17 and I think it's only going to continue. 22:21 And I really feel that ourselves and ministry, 22:25 the voices like us that hold to these beliefs 22:29 were really on the frontlines of a greater war 22:32 that's I believe going to lead into, 22:34 into greater persecution, 22:36 but I believe that 22:39 we won't see the end concluded, 22:42 and Christ come 22:43 and tell the persecution is rekindled, 22:46 because as we stand for the right, 22:50 as we're willing to be set apart 22:53 and stand for the right of the heavens fall, 22:55 it's only when that happens 22:57 that the persecution will come, 23:01 and I think that needs to happen 23:02 so that Jesus can come. 23:04 So I really love what Ron said in the documentary about, 23:08 you don't hate gays, 23:09 you know, that's where we came from. 23:11 Ron, would you say that again, the part, right. 23:13 Well, we are not homophobic, we are homoagapic. 23:17 That's why we are doing what we are doing 23:18 and set up our love 23:20 for people that are where we used to be 23:22 that don't have the answers we now have. 23:25 What you said though, as you said, 23:27 we don't hate gays. 23:29 If I hated gays, I wouldn't talk about it, 23:31 I wouldn't even care what happen to them. 23:33 Just leave it alone. 23:34 That, leave it alone, that's right. 23:35 And, you know, I think that really, 23:37 it sums it up, if we didn't care, 23:39 you know, we wouldn't even address it, 23:41 I just go home and wait for Jesus to come. 23:45 So, Mike, if a president of a Christian university 23:49 came to you and said, 23:51 you know, there is just no way 23:52 that we are gonna allow you speak here, 23:54 because you guys have extremist views, 23:57 and that's damaging. 23:59 And so, 24:01 I mean that's kind of persecution too 24:04 in not being able to get the word out 24:09 that young people so desperately need to hear. 24:11 How does that affect you? How does that fall on you? 24:15 You know, Wayne, what? 24:16 How it really... 24:18 I guess affects me is the fact that 24:20 I think of when somebody does come to me, 24:23 and says, you know, 24:26 I don't know what to think, I don't know where to go. 24:27 You know, I hear the world telling me that this is okay, 24:30 and then I hear the word of God telling me 24:31 that it's wrong, 24:33 you know, and there is no resources. 24:35 I think about that child because that person was me. 24:39 You know, I walked right out of Christian culture 24:41 at 20 years old 24:42 because I couldn't get my sexuality 24:44 and my religion to come together. 24:45 And because I found no resources 24:47 or even an open ear 24:49 that I felt that I could trust. 24:50 You know what they did is that plunged me 24:52 into a world of experience 24:54 that God had never intended for me. 24:57 And while it took a long time 24:58 that because of what I have been put through, 25:02 that my sadness actually comes 25:04 when a university is unwilling to even 25:07 just consider the options 25:09 that the word of God expresses are available. 25:13 I remember reading 25:14 and believe it's in 1 Peter that tells me that 25:19 God doesn't 25:21 smile on even the slightest tint of sexual immorality, 25:27 and it reminds me again that 25:28 His word is very definitive about this topic of sexuality, 25:33 and how God who created us wants to uphold 25:37 His perfect plan for us, 25:39 that really does mean an awful lot to Him, 25:43 and it should mean an awful lot to us as well. 25:47 For somebody who contemplates their life 25:50 and their destiny today, 25:52 I find that there was great power 25:54 in 1 Peter 1:14-16, Ron, do you have that? 25:58 Yes, I have it here, 26:00 "As obedient children, 26:03 not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts 26:06 in your ignorance. 26:08 But as he which hath called you is holy, 26:11 so be ye holy in all manner of conversation, 26:15 Because it is written, Be ye holy, for I am holy." 26:22 To me that for a long time 26:24 I thought while be holy like God, 26:29 and I couldn't hold a candle to that. 26:31 And yet when I... 26:33 And I found some other people, 26:35 I got to mention this too, 26:36 they were even offended by that, 26:38 to that being drawn, be holy. 26:40 You know, that was like something that 26:41 we certainly couldn't attain. 26:44 But when I went and I looked up the word, 26:47 one of the definitions for holy meant set apart. 26:51 Doesn't it just mean follow me, 26:54 just follow me, be like me. 26:55 Yes. 26:56 Try, you know, to stay with me. 26:58 Yeah. 26:59 So, as we each one walk with God, 27:02 I know that every single one of us have personal devotions. 27:08 Time away with God when, 27:10 when we're not even speaking together. 27:12 In fact sometimes speaking together, 27:14 I find distracts from our devotion time. 27:17 We get wrapped up into a schedule. 27:19 But when I come back 27:20 and I have all that precious time with God, 27:23 and I recently had that privilege, 27:25 that God really does speak to our hearts 27:28 and He does tell us that we are set apart. 27:31 And it gives new meaning to my experience with Him, 27:34 I reflect on His promises. 27:37 It gives me inspiration and motivation 27:39 as to why He has set me apart 27:41 for I believe preserving me and preserving us 27:45 for such a time as this. 27:48 Find your true meaning in Jesus Christ, 27:50 and find that He has set you apart. 27:52 Thank you so much 27:54 for joining us again in Pure Choices, 27:56 and God bless you. |
Revised 2016-06-16