Participants: Brittany Hill-Morales (Host), Dajanae Anderson, Keith Hackle Jr
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000130A
|
00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:40 Hello, welcome to Pure Choices. 00:43 My name is Brittany Hill-Morales, 00:44 and I am today's host. 00:46 We have a really interesting 00:49 and controversial topic for today. 00:51 We are talking about after the affair. 00:55 What do you do as... 00:58 You're married, your spouse cheated on you, 01:02 and now you're wondering, should I divorce 01:04 or should I stay married, what should you do? 01:05 We're gonna have the discussion, 01:06 but before we jump in, 01:08 we're gonna pray, so let's pray. 01:09 Dear kind and most heavenly Father, 01:11 dear Lord, I pray that You will lead our conversation here 01:14 and You also be with the viewers at home. 01:17 Thank you so much for everything that You've done 01:18 and continue to do, in Jesus' name, amen. 01:20 Amen. Amen. 01:22 Amen, so today, we have two wonderful people 01:25 over here on the couch. 01:26 We have Pastor Keith Hackle from Iowa, 01:29 and we also have 01:30 Mrs. Dajanae Anderson from Texas. 01:33 So we're all married. 01:35 Yes. 01:36 I know there's one thing we none of us want to happen. 01:40 We do not want our spouse to cheat, 01:43 and we also don't want it for our friends. 01:46 Some of us, we've seen growing up, 01:48 the damage of affairs, 01:51 what it does to not only the couple itself 01:53 but to the families, their friends. 01:56 And marriage was an institution created by God. 02:00 Before the fall, it was declared very good. 02:03 But we know because of sin, 02:04 all these different stuff we do had a lot of issues. 02:07 Right. So let's go... 02:08 It's like basic question. 02:10 What is an affair? 02:15 An affair... 02:20 is when you are inappropriately 02:25 intimate with someone 02:28 that is not your spouse. 02:33 And so, I know there are some people define 02:38 that had to be sexual, 02:40 and some people define that to be emotional. 02:45 And I was recently informed 02:49 that there are actually three different levels of affairs 02:56 that people consider things to be affairs 02:58 and sometimes it can be sexual 03:01 but not emotional, 03:02 so, and I've seen that, 03:06 so it's, I don't love her 03:08 when it's, you know, the guy is, 03:10 the man is having an affair with another women. 03:14 I don't love her. 03:15 It's just a sexual thing. 03:19 My heart is still at home, 03:21 or if it is emotional to where it's like you need to relax, 03:26 we haven't had sex. 03:29 Then, but there's still inappropriate reality 03:33 in the intimacy that is present, 03:36 so I've seen those things. 03:40 I think it's tough. 03:43 It could be, I would just say 03:44 if I could give it a definition outside of the dictionary 03:48 then I would just say, 03:49 an act that goes beyond what is expected or accepted 03:55 by your mate 03:57 because it ranges, it could be, for some people, 04:00 it's just a fact that you were texting this other person. 04:04 Yeah. 04:05 I feel like you had an affair, while others, it could be, 04:07 hey, a kiss is okay, 04:10 but we didn't go further than that. 04:12 So I think it's relational, 04:15 like it depends on each relationship, 04:17 what boundaries you've set, 04:18 and so then the spouse will have to say this, 04:22 and this is how I feel about what you did, 04:24 but definitely a breach of expectations or limitations 04:28 that have been set by the realm of the marriage. 04:32 But I would also add that there is certain things 04:35 that just should not happen. 04:36 Right. 04:37 Despite what, if you said 04:39 'cause I know some people have open relationships, 04:43 and I'm gonna trying to be like, okay, that's you, 04:48 but as a Christian who serves God 04:50 and what God has designed for us, 04:53 open relationships are having affairs, 04:56 it's just that your spouse knows about it. 04:58 And is pretending to be okay with it. 05:01 Kissing somebody else, that, for me, 05:06 and based on how the Bible is and God is. 05:09 I don't think He wants us. 05:10 Do I say, if someone told me, 05:12 well, you know, that's how my husband and I are set up. 05:14 No. 05:16 Something's wrong with that, 05:17 you need to sit down and try to figure out, 05:18 why would you even want to make that acceptable. 05:21 Share intimacy, yeah, with somebody else. 05:23 And I would also, going back to, 05:25 there are three different levels. 05:27 The sexual but not emotional, 05:30 the sexual and emotional, 05:33 then the emotional but not sexual, 05:36 just to talk on that factor for little bit. 05:41 I wouldn't want my spouse 05:43 to be conversing with someone else for two, 05:48 especially on deep situations that mainly like concerning me. 05:52 Yes, we should be able to have opposite gender relationships. 05:57 There is a certain level of healthy, that's acceptable. 06:00 But when you are spending more time on the phone with... 06:05 In my case, being, you know, I'm married to my husband, 06:08 you're spending more time on phone with her, 06:10 it's 2 o'clock in the morning 06:11 and you're talking to her at 2 a.m. 06:14 And like honey, it's not sexual, but still it's 2 a.m. 06:17 I haven't spoken to you since last week, 06:19 Tuesday, today is Friday, this is the problem. 06:22 Right, right. 06:23 And there's like certain things 06:24 that are outside where you cannot do. 06:28 But for a moment, let's talk about sexual but emotional, 06:31 and emotional, sexual and emotional. 06:33 Sexual and... Okay, okay, so I... 06:36 Can I make a comment on what you just said with the... 06:39 Because I think that's the most sticky reality of affairs 06:46 are the affairs that aren't sexual. 06:49 I think most people can identify 06:52 that if I'm having sexual relations 06:54 whether it's emotional or not 06:57 that you have breached the marriage relationship. 07:01 But when it comes to the lack of sexual intimacy 07:05 outside of the marriage, 07:06 then people begin to justify what's going on 07:11 to try to make it seem like it's not a negative thing. 07:14 And so, I have lots of... 07:17 I have met many people, people that I care about 07:22 that have taught me 07:23 that if there's an emotional connection, 07:28 many people stay in contact with their exes, right? 07:31 And so, they're in, you know, relationships, 07:36 they may not be married, 07:38 but then I say, 07:39 what are you going to do if you end up. 07:42 You're in a relationship with one person, 07:45 but you're still talking to, 07:47 and investing time into, and exposing. 07:53 You're still telling this person, 07:55 who you are, 07:56 what's going on in your day to day. 07:58 You're possibly even telling them 08:00 what's going on in your relationship, 08:03 knowing that there is more than friendship, 08:06 there's more than a friendship chemistry 08:08 between you and this person 08:10 because of your history 08:11 or because of things that have been expressed 08:14 verbally or non-verbally, 08:15 and then you say, but then you're trying to move forward 08:19 in the actual relationship, 08:21 the declared relationship that you're in. 08:24 And I believe that this relationship 08:28 will never be able to grow as fully 08:30 as, you know, God may intend, 08:34 or you may kind of want, 08:36 or this person may definitely want 08:38 because they don't know what's going on over here. 08:41 And so I think that there's the emotional part 08:46 that happens with men and women, 08:49 happens with men and women, 08:50 you know, people say that women are more emotional 08:54 than men are, 08:55 and I'm not here to argue that truth or non-truth, 08:59 but definitely men still have emotions... 09:03 True. 09:05 And so a relationship is still going to be... 09:09 The man is still going to be emotionally effected 09:12 by whatever kind of relationship he is in. 09:14 And so I think there is... 09:16 I think we need to start on being honest with ourselves 09:20 about why we want this person around. 09:22 And if there is... 09:25 If you cannot tell your spouse 09:27 the things that you are discussing 09:29 with this other person, 09:31 then you, then that is a red flag 09:34 that there's something wrong 09:36 and inappropriate with the relationship 09:38 that you're having outside of the declared relationship. 09:42 If I could jump on that really quickly. 09:44 I had to be honest with myself. 09:46 Before I was married, I found myself in that situation twice, 09:49 being with someone 09:51 who was still in contact with an ex. 09:54 And I'm better now. 09:57 My husband does not do that, but I really had 09:59 'cause every time I put myself in situation like, 10:01 what is going on? 10:03 Right. 10:04 And it was sort of point in one of the relationships 10:06 where I was like, listen, I still love her, 10:08 but I love you and I'm choosing you. 10:11 And I don't know why I stayed in that relationship. 10:14 Right. 10:15 But that's a reality where men do have emotions, 10:17 so it could be like, you know, I chose you, I love you, 10:20 but, you know, I love... 10:21 No, you're not completely dedicated to me. 10:24 You are still with that other person. 10:27 Right. 10:28 And it's tough. 10:29 But in that instance, you've communicated, 10:31 listen, this is how I feel. 10:33 It gets really sticky when individuals have children with 10:38 the previous person, right? 10:39 And so... Yeah. 10:41 The communication becomes important, 10:43 being able to share what we've talked about becomes important 10:46 because it is a reality 10:48 that those previous relationships 10:50 even though they're broken up, that one party may feel like, 10:53 you know what, this could work out again, right? 10:55 They may want you, want that other person back, 10:57 so if they see a wedge being drawn 11:00 in which you are keeping secrets 11:02 from your spouse, right? 11:04 You're not willing to communicate 11:05 or devote everything that you've said to this person 11:09 or they've said to you, that becomes important, 11:11 especially in this age of social media. 11:16 So what do you do when you get a inbox 11:18 from that individual 11:20 that you used to be involved with, right? 11:21 Do you tell your spouse, do you not? 11:24 And so in our... 11:25 In my marriage, my wife and I, we have open communication, 11:28 and so you have to feel comfortable 11:31 and being able to say, 11:33 hey, this person reached out to me. 11:36 This person asked this question. 11:39 Your relationship has to determine 11:41 whether it's okay for you to stay in contact with that, 11:43 that former person or not. 11:45 And some people are okay with it. 11:46 Some people are like, 11:48 yeah, you can communicate with that person, 11:50 but it's communication, 11:52 you got to be careful and you got to keep it open. 11:55 And then just being passionate 11:57 about the same things sometimes creates a problem. 12:00 And so, we've had issues at the churches 12:04 that I've pastored, 12:05 where individuals may appreciate the same thing, 12:08 so let's say sports, right? 12:09 Let's say, my wife doesn't like football. 12:12 But maybe there is a lady in the church 12:14 who does like football, 12:15 so every time Sunday comes around, 12:17 we're talking about the game, 12:19 and we're having in-depth conversations. 12:21 She may come over to the house 12:23 and we may watch the game together. 12:24 My wife hates football, right? 12:27 But now she sees this lady here who's encroaching on her space 12:32 and having a relationship 12:34 on a level that her and her husband don't have. 12:36 And so she has to be able to come to me and say, 12:38 listen, dude, I don't feel comfortable with this level, 12:41 and then I, as her husband have to receive how she feels. 12:45 And to be willing to sacrifice this relationship 12:50 for the sake of making sure that home stays intact. 12:54 But at the same time, 12:55 we as spouses have to understand 12:57 that there may be people who gel with our spouses, 13:01 I suppose get on a level that we don't 13:04 and we must trust them 13:05 to maintain those safe values so. 13:09 Yeah, I think that's a key word, 13:11 especially when it comes to having relationships 13:14 with the opposite sex that maybe are pure 13:18 because that does exist, 13:20 but if there's a lack of trust, 13:23 that may have something to do with maybe our history, 13:26 or that may have something to do with just me. 13:28 And so, being able to identify, 13:30 do I, am I untrusting of this relationship, 13:33 you know, as a wife. 13:35 Am I untrusting of this relationship 13:37 this women is having with my husband 13:39 because my husband has demonstrated 13:41 that he is not trustworthy in this area, 13:45 or do I have previous history, 13:49 a previous history of hurt 13:50 to where maybe I've been cheated on, 13:52 or have I seen men in my life maybe cheat on, 13:57 and so I think that this is a reality for most 13:59 or all men, 14:01 and so which one is it 14:03 and being able to filter through that 14:05 I think is completely necessary. 14:08 And I think it's unfair for us to expect things 14:13 out of our spouse without evaluating 14:14 why we feel that way. 14:17 And as we're talking about affairs, 14:19 this is an another element to it 14:21 with the whole sexuality, the sexual but not emotional. 14:25 Sexual doesn't only mean not going all the way, 14:30 having penetration when you're in intercourse. 14:33 There are also other sexual perversions 14:34 where it talks about sexual immoralities. 14:37 It could be incest, 14:38 if your spouse whether it's the husband or that the wife, 14:43 if they're interfering with children. 14:45 That is an affair 14:47 'cause that's a sexual perversion. 14:51 Again, like I said before, abuse, if he's a rapist, 14:53 that is affair, 14:55 it may not be like we said the emotional elements 14:58 because it's not there, 14:59 but it's still sexual and it's not, 15:01 it's not honoring the bond between the husband and wife, 15:03 there are even other extremes such as physicality, 15:09 people having sex with objects. 15:11 Those are all such different things 15:12 where you need to really consider 15:14 and be like, okay, what's going on in our relationship. 15:15 You're not committed to me, you're not with me. 15:17 So when your spouse has this affair 15:22 whether it's sexual, sexual and emotional, 15:25 or only emotional, 15:27 what is the option after that? 15:29 What does that Bible say? 15:30 Do we choose to divorce, do we choose to work it out? 15:33 What do you guys say? 15:36 Well, I think the first question that you had 15:39 is more important than the latter, 15:41 not that the latter is not important, 15:43 but what does the Bible say, 15:44 what does the Bible say about it? 15:47 And, you know, when Christ was having this conversation, 15:53 he said that, you know, that yes, there is... 15:56 You can divorce, you can divorce, 16:00 but you do not have to divorce, 16:03 and so just because an affair happens, 16:07 it is lawful to divorce, 16:09 it is lawful to take that step, 16:13 however, but however what Christ demonstrates 16:18 is being consistent 16:21 and being faithful, 16:22 even when we are unfaithful, 16:24 and so that marriage relationship, 16:26 Christ as the groom and the church as the bride 16:32 being able to stay... 16:34 Christ is able to stay faithful. 16:37 2 Timothy talks about how when we are unfaithful, 16:40 Christ remains the same 16:42 because He cannot deny who He is. 16:45 And so there's this... 16:47 You have options, you do have options, 16:49 but then the latter question is which option, 16:52 like you said, do we choose, 16:54 even though the Bible makes room 16:57 for us to stay or to leave. 17:00 So let's say, you're leaning... 17:03 Let's say the option is divorce. 17:04 What would be the factors that would say, 17:06 okay, yeah, we should divorce, 17:08 not be married anymore? 17:10 What would be those factors? 17:12 It can range, probably the most important is we... 17:17 This just isn't healthy. 17:18 This would not be healthy for us going beyond. 17:21 As Dajanae said, it's... 17:23 God gives us an option, but that's not his preference, 17:26 even with the affair, that's not His preference. 17:29 He would desire for us to work this thing out, 17:32 but if this thing keeps coming up, 17:35 if every time I'm leaving now after the affair, 17:38 you're thinking that I'm going to be with someone else. 17:41 If I get a text message 17:43 and you're feeling a certain way, 17:44 if you don't want to be around me, 17:47 if we've separated, 17:48 and that's not, still not working, 17:50 we can't come back together. 17:51 If we've gone to the counseling, 17:52 if we prayed about this thing, 17:54 and it's just not a healthy environment, 17:57 then that is when we should go to the other options. 18:02 It's important also, if I can just add 18:04 from the personal perspective, 18:06 when individuals find out other individuals, 18:08 outside of the relationship, find out about it. 18:12 Ultimately, individuals are making decisions 18:14 not so much about how I feel 18:15 but how other people are viewing me for staying. 18:18 So you will hear the lady say, 18:20 people looking at me, I'm foolish 18:22 or the guy, I'm foolish for staying with you. 18:24 I can go and be with someone else. 18:26 And so really, the reason why I'm saying this 18:29 is because other people are... 18:31 I feel that this is how other people feel about me, 18:32 and this is where it's important 18:34 that our marriage 18:35 union is about us and God first, 18:38 and everybody else is secondary. 18:40 Me and my wife, we talked about this 18:42 before we got married. 18:44 We said, listen, there's no breaking up. 18:46 No breaking up. 18:47 No such thing as divorce 18:49 in regards to our vocabulary of this thing. 18:51 And so what am I saying? 18:52 I'm not saying go out and cheat. 18:53 She's not saying, go out and cheat. 18:55 Well, what we're saying is whatever we face, 18:58 whatever we face, we're going to work through this thing. 19:02 We're committing before we get into this thing 19:05 that we're going to work through this thing, 19:06 and that's important 19:08 because a lot of people, 19:10 I believe, have given up 19:12 and not even fought for that thing. 19:14 Now there are times when it's unhealthy, 19:16 this thing just isn't working, 19:18 you're still doing the same thing, 19:19 even after we've gone to counseling, 19:21 even after we've separated. 19:22 Yeah, you're going back to, yeah, fare for tenth affair, 19:25 you're still doing the same thing, 19:27 then we need to look at some other options, 19:29 but let's exhaust all of the possibilities 19:32 before we just give up. 19:34 Right. Right. 19:35 I would agree, I would definitely agree with that. 19:38 My husband and I, 19:39 you know, said the same thing before we got married. 19:43 We have people on both sides of our family 19:47 that have had affairs and divorces have happened, 19:50 have taken place and things like that, 19:52 and we have seen the hurt, 19:54 and in many ways experienced the hurt 19:56 that takes place after an affair, 19:59 and so but we said, of course, that's not... 20:03 In our dating stages... 20:05 In our dating stages, 20:07 we identified that's not something that we do, 20:13 where we may have seen that 20:14 but that's not something that we do. 20:18 Now, if it were to happen 20:20 because there's a reality that people change, things happen... 20:24 You know, as we grow, sometimes things that are not 20:31 inviting or wonderful, 20:34 there are things that grow into us that are not positive. 20:37 So many times when we're talking about growth, 20:39 we're talking about positive growth, 20:41 but there's a reality that I've come to terms with that 20:46 when you're younger, you're so much... 20:48 You have your innocence. 20:50 But as you get older and you experience harder situations, 20:54 then some of those hard situations 20:57 become a part of you. 20:58 And so sometimes, 21:00 you may go into a marriage and say, 21:02 this is something that I would never do 21:04 because you don't have any intention, 21:07 honestly, on doing that. 21:09 But then, something may happen, God forbid, 21:13 but that something that it's possible, 21:16 and so after the divorce, I mean not after the divorce, 21:19 after the affair if that were to happen, 21:22 then, I mean our conversation has been, 21:28 if that were to take place, I couldn't handle that. 21:32 And we said that, we hope 21:36 that God will give us the strength 21:38 to get through it, 21:40 but we are both honest with each other and said, 21:42 divorce is not something that we play around with. 21:45 Divorce is not when you get on my nerves, or you bother me, 21:48 or there's something that's really, really serious 21:51 that is difficult for me to live with 21:54 in you that doesn't... 21:55 I don't throw divorce out there, 21:58 but if it is an affair, 22:00 then you have to know that 22:02 that is something that I will be thinking in my mind. 22:05 And if that's an action that you take 22:11 then that's a conversation, 22:12 divorce is going to be a conversation 22:14 that we may have to have. 22:16 But there, it does take, in order to... 22:19 It's on the opposite, or not the opposite, 22:22 within that conversation, we, in our relationship, 22:26 before getting into our relationship, 22:28 before getting engaged, we had reconciliation, 22:32 we were friends, drama happened, 22:36 and then we had to come together and reconcile. 22:39 And so I am blessed to have experienced 22:45 what true reconciliation looks like 22:47 because I think that is God's ideal 22:50 that when he makes room for the latter, 22:53 but the ideal is when hardships come, 22:57 no matter what they are, 22:58 that both individuals 23:00 are willing to be reconciled to each other 23:03 because Christ... 23:06 the symbol comes from salvation. 23:10 Christ can come and try to be reconciled 23:13 and reconcile Himself to the world, 23:15 right, to the church, to the world, 23:17 but if I do not accept that offer of reconciliation, 23:22 then it's non-existent in our relationship, 23:26 and so the relationship can be saved. 23:29 It can be saved, no matter what happens. 23:33 All the things that you named, 23:34 those are some difficult realities 23:38 that are present in the church 23:39 whether we like to believe it or not, 23:41 whether it be affairs within heterosexual relationships, 23:48 affairs within homosexual relationships, 23:52 affairs with family members, 23:55 affairs with animals, affairs with self. 24:01 Some people identify masturbation 24:03 as affairs with self, 24:05 and so being able to honestly ask the question, 24:10 what do we do in our relationship, 24:13 and how do we live out the gospel during these true, 24:18 honest, and difficult realities of life? 24:23 How do we do that? 24:24 And do we take the Christ-like perspective? 24:27 Or do we at least try 24:29 because we're not perfect, right? 24:31 But we can try and pray about that thing so that's... 24:36 I believe that is God's ideal. 24:38 Yeah, and I've seen or trying to figure out, 24:40 okay, you choose to stay in the marriage. 24:43 Or maybe you figured out 24:45 that this thing is worth fighting for. 24:46 There are some certain factors, 24:48 maybe, you're willing to accept, 24:50 it was one time, 24:51 or whatever the rationale is for the couple to say, 24:54 okay, we're gonna try. 24:55 We really love each other. 24:57 We're doing this maybe for the children, 24:59 but more than for the children 25:00 because we truly believe that it was just a slip. 25:03 I probably didn't put the right bonding in place. 25:06 How do I fight for this thing, 25:10 not only going to counseling and sitting down, 25:15 and really placing all the issues on the table 25:17 because you need to be completely honest. 25:19 I think, I feel, Keith, that you're gonna 25:21 add something else? 25:22 Yeah, after you get, dealt with that 25:24 but it's, what do you do afterwards, 25:27 you say, I'm fighting for this thing, what do you do? 25:30 It takes a lot of time. 25:34 It's not gonna be tomorrow. Right. 25:36 May not be next year, 25:38 but what I've counseled people to do 25:40 is to get back to that point, start all over, 25:43 get back to dating 25:45 because there's a variety of issues 25:47 that could be the cause. 25:49 Right. Obviously, right? 25:50 So talk about it when you feel comfortable, 25:52 when the hurt is not as painful, 25:58 then you start talking about it, 25:59 and then you just gradually get back to dating, 26:01 get back to loving each other, get back to knowing each other, 26:04 and then build that trust. 26:06 We got to understand that divorce was not God's idea. 26:11 He actually says 26:12 it was because of the hardness of your heart 26:14 that He gave you this. 26:15 So once my heart has been softened, right? 26:17 And I'm willing to now receive and work through this thing. 26:21 I have to give you a fair chance, 26:23 you have to give me a fair chance, 26:25 we got to try to rebuild this thing... 26:26 Right. Because it's possible. 26:28 I've seen a lot of marriages that were on the brink 26:31 and are now, 20 years later, they're still going strong. 26:35 But it took individual saying, you know what? 26:37 I love you, I trust you, 26:39 and let's keep moving through this thing, 26:42 and let's defy the odds 26:43 because society tells us, listen, 26:45 somebody does something you don't like, just divorce. 26:48 Simply just divorce. 26:49 I mean, some people getting divorced 26:51 just for losing their jobs 26:52 or just anything, you know. 26:53 Yes. It's serious. 26:55 And when you decide to stay married, 26:59 you have to decide 27:01 to stay married and be married. 27:05 So you can't say you cheated on me, 27:09 so we're not having sex. 27:11 It was five years ago, you cheated on me, 27:15 so I'm gonna keep the kids away from you, 27:16 and even if you choose to divorce, 27:20 you have to forgive the spouse. 27:22 Yes. That's important. Yeah. 27:23 Especially, if the kids are still there, 27:25 you can't have the tension, 27:26 the friends, they can't have that tension. 27:29 And even for yourself, 27:30 whoever you're started dating that's new, 27:32 can't have that tension. 27:34 So as we're wrapping up, 27:35 we want you guys to keep on having this conversation 27:38 about affairs. 27:39 What do you need to do 27:42 within your relationship if it has happened? 27:45 Do you choose to divorce or you choose to stay? 27:47 The Bible says in 1 Peter 4:8, 27:49 "Above all, love each other deeply, 27:52 because love covers a multitude of sins." 27:54 Yes. 27:56 So please remember to make pure choices. |
Revised 2017-12-18