Participants: Brittany Hill-Morales (Host), Dajanae Anderson, Keith Hackle Jr, Sabine Vatel
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000132A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:40 Welcome to Pure Choices. 00:41 My name is Brittany Hill-Morales 00:43 and I'm today's host. 00:45 We have a very, very important and serious conversation 00:48 that are about to take place today, 00:50 and it is about abortion. 00:52 But before we even begin to have the discussion, 00:54 let's pray. 00:56 Dear most heavenly Father, dear, Lord, 00:58 we pray that you will be with us right now, 01:01 that you will guide our conversation here, 01:02 and you'll also be with the viewers at home. 01:04 We love you so much and we praise your name. 01:06 In Jesus' name. Amen. 01:08 Amen. Amen. 01:09 I have an amazing group of people here with me. 01:12 Right here, to my left, I have Ms. Sabine Vatel. 01:17 Over on the couch, 01:18 we have Keith Hackle and Mrs. Dajanae Anderson. 01:22 Guys, thank you so much for being here 01:24 on Pure Choices with me. 01:25 Abortion... 01:27 Yeah. 01:28 ..it is a serious conversation, it is a serious topic, 01:32 it is a serious issue 01:34 that is going on not only here in the United States 01:38 but every where. 01:40 And there are a lot of young ladies, 01:43 who are hurting, 01:46 who probably have discovered that they are pregnant, 01:49 and they are looking at abortion 01:52 as if it is a good option. 01:54 And I want us to take at this moment, 01:56 these next couple of minutes 01:58 to really speak to them as if... 02:01 just to state that... We're gonna state... 02:03 We know that abortion should not happen, 02:06 but they are seriously looking at this, 02:08 so let's have this conversation. 02:10 What is abortion? Let's start with there. 02:14 That's a tough... it's tough, 02:16 but in reality, abortion is the ending of life. 02:20 So it's someone saying, 02:22 "You know, what this child 02:24 that would be brought into the world 02:27 is not going to have that option." 02:29 And I'm sure it's tough, 02:32 looking at the responsibility of being a parent, 02:35 looking at the responsibilities of balancing, 02:38 now sometimes work and life. 02:41 I understand all of the concerns 02:43 but there are other options. 02:46 There are processes like adoption. 02:48 I would counsel and talk with countless individuals 02:51 who've been trying to have children for years 02:56 and don't have that opportunity to do that. 02:59 So there are ways 03:01 in which we can do things 03:03 and stick to what God has prescribed for us 03:06 and desires for us to do. 03:09 But also dealing with the concerns with, 03:12 am I ready or able to be a parent? 03:15 Right. 03:16 And I believe that as our church has a stand 03:18 against on having an abortion 03:21 that as a church 03:23 we should do better with supporting the young lady 03:28 and the young man 03:30 to be functional parents 03:32 or to help them through the process of adoption 03:38 because many of us, you know, we say... 03:40 We can say, easier... 03:42 um, it's easier for us to say, 03:44 "Don't abort your child, 03:47 don't end the development of life." 03:50 But we're not as quick to say, 03:54 "What can I do to help you along this process?" 03:58 And I think if that was the stance of the church, 04:03 this is what we're going to do, 04:05 then it will be a lot better 04:07 'cause the reality is that the family system is declining. 04:11 And so even individuals 04:13 who are adults and getting pregnant 04:17 even in the context of marriage, 04:20 sometimes the question is, "Should I abort this baby?" 04:24 And it's a lack of not knowing 04:27 if I'm going to be an adequate parent, 04:30 because maybe I haven't seen parenting in a good light. 04:35 And so what are we doing as a church 04:38 to support those individuals that are facing this decision. 04:43 You know, I think about my experience 04:45 with a couple of young ladies who are college students, 04:51 who came to me as their chaplain 04:54 to make that decision... 04:55 First of all the decision of having an abortion, 04:58 whether or not you do it... 05:02 I don't think it's taken very lightly, 05:04 I think most people do not take it lightly. 05:06 And I was glad that when 05:08 that young person came to me to say, 05:11 "Well, should I even do it or...?" 05:13 I think, they were looking for permission, 05:14 which I couldn't give permission for them to go ahead 05:17 and have this abortion. 05:19 And I remember needing some help 05:21 and actually going to the pregnancy care center, 05:25 counseling type thing, 05:26 and I actually went with them to that center, 05:29 and I was thinking, what would their mother do? 05:31 You know, because they didn't want 05:32 to tell their parents about it, 05:33 so I was sort of the adult that they had and... 05:37 Let me tell you... 05:39 I happened to go to this center and it was so compassionate, 05:41 and I learned so much on how to approach somebody 05:44 without shaming them, 05:45 and how to explain to them 05:47 what the abortion is going to entail. 05:48 I mean, they went to great detail, 05:50 it was heartbreaking, 05:52 and then they went to giving this person option 05:55 on what this young lady could do. 05:58 And, you know, maybe this is how God feels when we go... 06:02 We do a decision that breaks His heart. 06:04 And to this day, I'll never forget when this person 06:08 because the pressure of the guy decided... 06:12 After all this, after all the evidences 06:15 decided to go ahead and do it. 06:17 They were too afraid to live, and to face their parents, 06:20 and face their church, and they had that abortion... 06:24 And I felt like a failure actually, 06:26 I remember taking it really personally and saying, 06:28 "Man, could I have done more." 06:30 But that decision 06:31 is this young person deicide to go through. 06:33 Yes. 06:35 It's difficult and heartbreaking 06:38 and I know a lot of people they agree... 06:43 Abortion should be legal, it should not happen, 06:46 it should not be an option. 06:47 But like Dajanae was saying, 06:49 "They don't provide the support." 06:51 And the issue that most women who find themselves pregnant, 06:56 that's what they need, that's what they want, 06:59 a desire to be able to make the right decision. 07:03 So just to... 07:04 I get to speak to people 07:06 who have young ladies in their church, 07:09 in their communities. 07:11 I'm asking them to do more than just say, 07:15 "Don't have an abortion." 07:16 What is the different types of support 07:18 that they can provide for these women 07:22 who are seriously considering it. 07:27 And let's go with our question first. 07:29 Let's go with it. 07:30 You know, for anybody who then has a doubt 07:32 that this is happening within the church, 07:33 you know, within our church, you know... 07:35 I was reading that, at least in 2015, 07:37 that 70% of the women who go for an abortion 07:42 are self described Christians. 07:43 Yes. 07:45 And many of them don't feel they can go to their church, 07:47 so I love your question. 07:48 Just wanna add that. 07:50 Yes. It's definitely happening. 07:51 We definitely need to do more and I would start... 07:56 My recommendation will be to start with prayer, 07:59 because even as me and my wife, 08:02 when my wife find out she was pregnant, 08:05 there was a concern, there was a fear, trepidation 08:08 as to how we were going to make this thing work. 08:12 And that's where we have to go back to trusting in God 08:17 and asking Him to how, 08:19 "God, help us through this thing, 08:21 help us to deal with this thing, 08:22 help us to put in place some mechanisms right now 08:26 so that when the baby gets here, 08:27 we're ready to go." 08:29 And the reality is 08:30 whether you are 20 years old or 50 years old, 08:34 you're never going to fully be ready to have a child, 08:37 you're going to need God's help through that thing. 08:40 Whether it's through the infancy stages 08:43 and just trying to get used to breast feeding and or nursing. 08:48 And just that whole process 08:49 or whether it's when they are a teenager 08:51 and now they are talking about, can they borrow the car. 08:53 You're going to need God's direction. 08:56 You're going to need his protection. 08:58 And so I believe starting with prayer 09:02 is a good way to walk people off of that ledge, 09:05 and lead them to a deeper understanding 09:08 and a trust in God. 09:10 I always ask the question or try to frame it this way 09:13 that the God has allowed us to live, right? 09:16 And He could have easily said, "No." 09:18 Right? 09:20 And so we've had that privilege and He is taking care of us, 09:25 so we must trust him 09:26 to also take care of this child who's developing. 09:29 Right. 09:31 I will back you and I love the idea also... 09:32 And I'm glad you said something about prayer, 09:35 but also somehow find a way to affirm the person. 09:38 Because I do have examples of young ladies 09:40 who did not go through with it, 09:41 and who did not feel they were worthy enough 09:44 to even have the baby, or didn't have what it took. 09:47 And I think that prayer is part of building up 09:50 that self-esteem like, 09:52 yes, God is gonna help you through this. 09:54 And for them to look back and say, 09:55 "Well, I almost didn't have 09:57 this precious thing that I'm holding. 09:58 Almost didn't have that baby." 10:00 And to affirm that person, not shaming them but to say, 10:02 "You know what, the Lord is gonna help you 10:04 and you're gonna have what it takes, 10:06 you're worthy of this motherhood." 10:09 And I think that as churches, local churches, 10:13 there is a way to put together ministries, 10:16 maybe not just for the youth at the church, 10:20 but also as a ministry, as an evangelistic effort 10:26 kind of a ministry that's consistent, 10:29 where there is counseling, 10:31 there are individuals from the church 10:33 that are financially supporting this ministry 10:38 to be able to guide these individuals 10:41 to get groceries when they have the child. 10:44 People who... 10:46 You know, maybe you're retired and you've had children, 10:49 and you've had grandchildren, 10:51 and there are people in the community 10:53 who don't have the parental figures 10:56 like you can be in their life. 10:58 Going with them to the grocery store and saying, 11:01 "You should get your daughter, 11:02 you know, this kind of food or your son, 11:05 this kind of food or these diapers..." 11:07 But that's, that's... 11:09 But being available to this young person 11:13 or to this adult that may be struggling. 11:17 They need to know before hand, 11:19 before either having the child or aborting the child, 11:23 "Will I have a support system? 11:25 And if I... 11:27 maybe I'm well off, 11:28 maybe I have a really, really good job, 11:31 but my husband works all the time 11:33 and I work all the time, 11:34 and I need a support system." 11:36 Because that village 11:37 that we used to have in raising children 11:40 is not in existence as much as it used to be. 11:45 It's still present, 11:47 but it's not as dominant in our society, 11:50 but we all can be a part of someone's community. 11:54 And I think that's something that we need to hear as we, 12:00 I say get pregnant 12:02 and need some help in making the decision 12:06 whether to abort, since the laws 12:09 are that I can or to keep my child, 12:13 and be able to raise my child as a God fearing person. 12:17 I think the reality... 12:19 Just wanting to make sure this is clear. 12:21 We're not telling people, young ladies, 12:26 and abortion is even relevant even in your 20s or 30s. 12:30 We're not saying it is okay 12:32 for you to have non-marital sex. 12:34 Right. 12:36 We wanna make sure that's not what we're saying. 12:38 But in the era that you did 12:41 and now you find yourself in this position, 12:44 and you're wondering what do I do? 12:46 Because we say the church, we feel like, 12:48 the person might feel as if the church will judge them, 12:52 the issue of being censored... 12:55 Having to deal with all these stuff full of shame, 12:58 you're pregnant and you're told you have to leave the church, 13:01 you can't really be here, you can't have this position, 13:03 you can't do this. 13:04 Or even if you have certain jobs 13:06 in our institutions 13:08 if you become a pregnant, 13:10 it's either you abort the child, 13:13 and you still have your job or you keep the child, 13:17 and you don't have the way to feed the child. 13:19 And for us is that we need to ensure as a church 13:26 that has a strong stance against abortion, 13:29 we have to ensure that we have 13:31 a way to help these people that, 13:34 "Yes, you made a mistake. 13:36 And, yes, we want to help you get forgiveness, 13:38 repentance and all that different stuff. 13:40 There is still another factor to it 13:43 that there is a child within you 13:45 and we don't want you to go away, 13:47 hide in a corner, and abort this child." 13:52 That's a good point. 13:53 And I just wanna feed a little bit more, 13:56 build a little bit more on that 13:58 the process that the church has. 14:00 And I'm a fan of the process when we do it right. 14:05 I think historically, and this is why we end up 14:07 with these situations. 14:08 Historically, we haven't done disciplined right, right? 14:12 It's more of let me smack you on a hand, 14:15 tell you you're wrong, and it's not redemptive. 14:17 But if we look at the way that the structure is set up 14:21 as it relates to church discipline. 14:22 It's actually designed to be redemptive, 14:25 so we wanna make this stance and say, 14:27 "Listen, this is not what we stand for." 14:28 Right. 14:30 And sometimes there has to be that example for those 14:32 who'll come behind to see, 14:33 "Oh, this is not what Christians do, 14:36 this is not what Adventists do." 14:38 So the process if we do it right, 14:41 it's a beautiful thing, 14:43 and so we need to make sure 14:45 that we're doing it the right way. 14:47 And then when individuals are making decisions, 14:50 we need to educate them, 14:52 we need to communicate with them. 14:53 And I wanna touch on something to that, 14:54 that to not let the audience misconstrue this thing. 14:58 The man is just as important in the conversation 15:02 as the woman. 15:03 And there's a lot of things associated with abortion 15:05 that after the fact. 15:08 It might be 5 years, 10 years down the line, right? 15:11 And you're still emotionally, 15:14 dealing with this thing that has happened. 15:17 So we wanna bring the man and let him know, 15:19 dude, you need to be present, right? 15:21 Yes. 15:22 It's not just be involved in the other thing 15:24 and now this is, this is the females responsibility. 15:27 No, you need to be present because there is a lot of guys 15:30 who've experienced their significant other 15:34 getting an abortion and even they're affected. 15:37 And 18 years down the line, they're thinking like, 15:39 "Wow, my son or daughter would have been 15:42 18 years older at this time." 15:43 You know, what I mean? 15:44 And so we just need to make sure 15:46 that they were having the talk, having the conversation, 15:49 before we get to even a point of having 15:52 to make a decision on whether or not 15:55 we're going to follow through with this abortion 15:58 because the world will tell us, that it's okay. 16:00 But we must understand that there is things 16:02 that the world will say, 16:03 okay, that God has explicitly said are not okay. 16:06 Right. 16:08 And I would just, you know, 16:09 this is very accurate in 1 Corinthians, 16:13 I believe 6:5, 5 and 6 talks about 16:18 how when you deal with discipline in the church, 16:22 when there is someone who is explicitly sinning, 16:26 and everybody knows 16:28 that this person has chosen sin 16:30 and consistently choose a sin... 16:34 And that you are to discipline 16:37 or that person is to be cast out. 16:40 But the Bible says that, that person is to be cast out 16:43 or handed over to the devil. 16:45 So that they may return, so that they may be restored, 16:48 so that they may return from their ways, 16:50 and know that Christ way is better. 16:52 And it's not they should figure it out themself, 16:56 but they're supposed to be a active part 16:59 that you're still supposed to play 17:01 in that person's life through that process. 17:04 You're not handing them over 17:06 just because they're gonna defile the rest of the group. 17:10 That's not a loving reaction. 17:14 And I say, sin, 17:16 and I don't think we think about... 17:20 I don't think enough of us think about abortion 17:23 like do we classify abortion as a sin. 17:26 There are different views about the, 17:31 what's happening medically with the body... 17:34 What's actually happening with the body 17:35 and because the child does not yet have the breath of life, 17:40 that the child is not yet alive. 17:43 I know that's a view that exists 17:46 and so is it murder 17:49 or is it something 17:51 that may not be considered as harsh as murder, 17:56 but something softer 17:58 but close still in that category 18:01 of ending a life 18:04 that you actually participated, 18:09 that you actually created, you actually... 18:11 You went through the process 18:13 knowingly in a way that this was a possibility. 18:17 And I think that goes into, 18:19 "What if I was raped then what? 18:26 It's very, very difficult 18:28 and there are some circumstances, 18:30 where a person's life may be in jeopardy. 18:33 And so what do you do and I've heard of, 18:37 haven't necessarily experienced these situations 18:39 where mom and baby are in a bed, right? 18:43 And the doctor is like, 18:44 "Listen, you're gonna lose one of them." 18:45 Right. You got to make that decision. 18:47 And I've heard a mother saying, 18:48 "Listen, keep the baby, loose me." Right? 18:51 And so that the husband has to make that decision. 18:54 And so there are circumstances 18:56 where you have to make a decision, but where... 18:59 I believe we're talking about in the optimal situation 19:04 where it's not life at stake, but you're just saying, 19:07 "Listen, I don't wanna go through with this." 19:10 There is a old saying, you've made your bed, 19:12 now you got to lie on it, right? 19:14 And that's the thing. 19:15 And so now we're trusting in God to say, 19:17 "Hey, help me go beyond this point." 19:20 And as a church we do, 19:21 we do need to be more active in this process, 19:26 because you don't want individuals... 19:28 This is another thing that has happened 19:30 and I've experienced this 19:31 where they will pursue getting an abortion right now, right? 19:37 But then want to continue going on 19:40 latter with the opportunity of having more children. 19:43 Okay, well, you plan to have children in the future, 19:45 but you just don't wanna do this thing right now. 19:48 And so now it's more about me, right? 19:51 It's not about me representing God, 19:53 it's about me glorifying self. 19:55 And that's when we get ourselves in trouble. 19:57 Right. 19:58 And I think, I was informed... 20:00 I was informed that on the issue of rape 20:05 and getting pregnant as the result of rape. 20:08 That's less than 1% of the reasons 20:12 why people actually get abortions. 20:14 And so the position of the church 20:18 is not that abortion should never, 20:21 ever, ever, ever, ever happen as you say, 20:24 Keith, there's some people 20:25 have to make that decision because the... 20:28 Pregnancy can actually take their life. 20:31 And so then that's like, that's a grey area of is this, 20:37 should I make, what decision should I make? 20:39 Which decision will God want me to make? 20:42 Is it selfish that I want to live 20:45 and this child doesn't even understand 20:46 the meaning of life yet? 20:49 And so that... 20:50 But those circumstances are less, like you said, 20:54 the thing that we're discussing here 20:57 is the individual who has chosen 21:00 to participate in intercourse, 21:03 whether in the context of marriage 21:05 or outside of the context of marriage and is now saying, 21:09 "I don't want the product 21:11 or the result of what I chose to participate in." 21:16 That is exactly what we are talking about, 21:19 but as you said it before, 21:20 there are those extreme cases 21:22 and Seventh-day Adventist church, 21:24 we have a stance that says, 21:26 in those extreme most severe cases 21:29 they make exceptions for abortion, 21:32 because it's not initially 21:35 what God intended to concerns of... 21:38 As you said, Keith, before 21:39 "Do I choose me or my child and the life of the child?" 21:44 But there are people who do say, 21:46 "No, I'm not going to have the abortion, 21:49 I'm going to have this child." 21:52 And it's interesting the flip that happens, 21:57 when someone has a child 22:00 that might have some sort of disability 22:03 and they say, "I'm going to have the child." 22:06 How the church responds? 22:08 If they're healthy, 22:09 and they're gonna have a healthy child. 22:11 Okay, yes, sure you must definitely have it. 22:13 But if the child is "not" we might assume 22:15 is not healthy or not perfect, 22:18 people might be like, "What you doing, 22:20 it's a no-brainer. 22:21 You should have the abortion." 22:23 They need to have support, 22:25 if there that's gonna be their decision, 22:27 because it's gonna be a hard journey for them 22:30 to try to provide the best that child can possibly have. 22:33 Right. 22:35 And even for the case where it is option between my wife 22:38 or she told me to choose the baby, 22:40 I choose the baby. 22:41 Now I'm all alone. 22:43 And that's part of 22:44 we have an excellent system in place by the church, 22:48 it's just that all the churches are not utilizing it 22:51 to strengthen that causes the family 22:54 to make sure they are... 22:55 everyone is educated not just only our young people, 22:59 young adults, middle class, 23:01 a lot of other people are confused 23:03 and don't really... 23:05 It's kind of interesting 23:06 that a lot of people don't fully understand 23:08 that sex produces children. 23:10 It's like it clicks but doesn't click. 23:13 And we have a responsibility as the church, 23:17 we have responsibility in our local communities to speak 23:22 and say something 23:23 and be that support and to help. 23:27 And I can't keep on saying support, support, support, 23:30 more than enough because, 23:32 yes, we do want to condemn the sex. 23:34 Yes, we do want to state that it was a sin 23:37 that it shouldn't have happened in that context. 23:39 But prenatal life, that's one thing 23:42 that we need to remember is 23:44 God chooses for the child 23:49 to be created. 23:51 He could have said, "No." 23:53 Even though it was happening at that time 23:55 where it shouldn't... 23:57 where nothing should have been taken place. 23:58 He still said, "Yes, prenatal life 24:01 is precious to him." 24:03 Because that child was 24:04 still being formed in the image of God. 24:06 So when we look at life in that fashion 24:09 that it is not just something that can happen 24:12 just by exhaling. 24:15 We have to help these... 24:20 Not just the women also the men. 24:22 And Keith wanted to take a minute 24:23 to talk about the men. 24:25 Yeah. 24:26 Because there is strong cases where he wants that baby, 24:31 he found out and he smiling from ear to ear, 24:33 and she is like what is wrong with you. 24:35 That's what we're talking about how we just view for the men. 24:38 If I can just share a story 24:40 and did before I talk about the men. 24:42 Just an example of support, we were at a church 24:46 and a young lady ended up pregnant, this was... 24:49 They weren't married 24:51 and so she's considering whether 24:53 she should get an abortion. 24:54 And so we know that there is this process now 24:57 the church knows that she is pregnant, 24:58 we have to do the whole church discipline 25:00 and things like that. 25:01 But I think maybe individuals may need an example 25:04 of what support looks like. 25:05 And so we're not condoning. 25:07 We didn't, as a church condone the act, right? 25:11 But as you mentioned having a baby come to full term 25:14 and be brought into this world is a blessing. 25:16 There are millions and millions of individuals 25:18 who would love to have that experience. 25:20 It's a blessing. And so what we did was... 25:23 We did the whole church discipline thing, 25:24 but I then came to the church and I said, listen, 25:27 we're now responsible for this child, 25:29 this is our child. 25:31 We didn't have the conversations before, 25:33 and so we're going to now take responsibility. 25:38 This is not just her having a baby. 25:40 This is us having a baby. 25:42 So we're gonna plan the baby shower 25:43 and this could be considered difficult or things 25:46 like that for some people. 25:47 But we're gonna plan the baby shower 25:48 and we're not promoting the act, 25:50 but we're embracing the fact that there is a baby, 25:52 an innocent baby coming into this world. 25:54 Who now we have to support 25:58 and gather around to the support, 26:00 to the point of the man he wanted the child, 26:03 but he didn't necessarily want the responsibility. 26:07 And so we had to have a deeper discussion there as well... 26:13 And it takes communication, it takes communication, 26:16 it takes support, 26:17 and it takes us doing things in a way that is redemptive, 26:22 and restores individuals back to their rightful stage, 26:25 and not tears them down. 26:27 And I think when people know that, 26:28 then they will be able to make a better decision. 26:30 You know, Keith, you mentioned about embracing the baby, 26:33 the baby shower even and, you know, 26:34 I've been a part of a community 26:36 that even has had dedication of the baby itself 26:40 who's a innocent life. 26:42 And I think this is about the church support 26:45 to simply being an extension of who Jesus is and Jesus... 26:48 Where He would go and how He would treat people. 26:51 So discipline is not, it seem like shunning 26:53 and this is an opportunity for God's grace. 26:56 That's right. 26:58 I think one thing to... 27:00 as we're summing-up 27:02 that we need to have take responsibility for our actions. 27:05 Yeah. 27:06 I understand that sex really did produced this child 27:09 and to press forward with that 27:13 and just to do what God is calling us to do. 27:17 We want you to keep on having the conversation, 27:19 it is not an easy topic, 27:21 there is a lot of different stances, 27:22 and views, and perspectives, 27:24 but what is it that God is calling you 27:28 to do in regards to their situation, 27:30 to support maybe a young lady that you see in the church 27:32 who is pregnant 27:34 and maybe she might be considering absorption. 27:36 What can you do in your churches 27:37 to support our young people, not even young people, 27:42 any age group to make the right decision. 27:44 The Bible talks about the fear of the Lord 27:48 and also that children are a gift from God. 27:51 So as you're contemplating what to do, 27:54 pray to God and make pure choices. 27:57 That's right. |
Revised 2017-03-09