Participants: Brittany Hill-Morales (Host), Dajanae Anderson, Keith Hackle Jr, Sabine Vatel
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000132A
00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:05 may be too candid for younger children.
00:40 Welcome to Pure Choices.
00:41 My name is Brittany Hill-Morales
00:43 and I'm today's host.
00:45 We have a very, very important and serious conversation
00:48 that are about to take place today,
00:50 and it is about abortion.
00:52 But before we even begin to have the discussion,
00:54 let's pray.
00:56 Dear most heavenly Father, dear, Lord,
00:58 we pray that you will be with us right now,
01:01 that you will guide our conversation here,
01:02 and you'll also be with the viewers at home.
01:04 We love you so much and we praise your name.
01:06 In Jesus' name. Amen.
01:08 Amen. Amen.
01:09 I have an amazing group of people here with me.
01:12 Right here, to my left, I have Ms. Sabine Vatel.
01:17 Over on the couch,
01:18 we have Keith Hackle and Mrs. Dajanae Anderson.
01:22 Guys, thank you so much for being here
01:24 on Pure Choices with me.
01:28 ..it is a serious conversation, it is a serious topic,
01:32 it is a serious issue
01:34 that is going on not only here in the United States
01:38 but every where.
01:40 And there are a lot of young ladies,
01:43 who are hurting,
01:46 who probably have discovered that they are pregnant,
01:49 and they are looking at abortion
01:52 as if it is a good option.
01:54 And I want us to take at this moment,
01:56 these next couple of minutes
01:58 to really speak to them as if...
02:01 just to state that... We're gonna state...
02:03 We know that abortion should not happen,
02:06 but they are seriously looking at this,
02:08 so let's have this conversation.
02:10 What is abortion? Let's start with there.
02:14 That's a tough... it's tough,
02:16 but in reality, abortion is the ending of life.
02:20 So it's someone saying,
02:22 "You know, what this child
02:24 that would be brought into the world
02:27 is not going to have that option."
02:29 And I'm sure it's tough,
02:32 looking at the responsibility of being a parent,
02:35 looking at the responsibilities of balancing,
02:38 now sometimes work and life.
02:41 I understand all of the concerns
02:43 but there are other options.
02:46 There are processes like adoption.
02:48 I would counsel and talk with countless individuals
02:51 who've been trying to have children for years
02:56 and don't have that opportunity to do that.
02:59 So there are ways
03:01 in which we can do things
03:03 and stick to what God has prescribed for us
03:06 and desires for us to do.
03:09 But also dealing with the concerns with,
03:12 am I ready or able to be a parent?
03:16 And I believe that as our church has a stand
03:18 against on having an abortion
03:21 that as a church
03:23 we should do better with supporting the young lady
03:28 and the young man
03:30 to be functional parents
03:32 or to help them through the process of adoption
03:38 because many of us, you know, we say...
03:40 We can say, easier...
03:42 um, it's easier for us to say,
03:44 "Don't abort your child,
03:47 don't end the development of life."
03:50 But we're not as quick to say,
03:54 "What can I do to help you along this process?"
03:58 And I think if that was the stance of the church,
04:03 this is what we're going to do,
04:05 then it will be a lot better
04:07 'cause the reality is that the family system is declining.
04:11 And so even individuals
04:13 who are adults and getting pregnant
04:17 even in the context of marriage,
04:20 sometimes the question is, "Should I abort this baby?"
04:24 And it's a lack of not knowing
04:27 if I'm going to be an adequate parent,
04:30 because maybe I haven't seen parenting in a good light.
04:35 And so what are we doing as a church
04:38 to support those individuals that are facing this decision.
04:43 You know, I think about my experience
04:45 with a couple of young ladies who are college students,
04:51 who came to me as their chaplain
04:54 to make that decision...
04:55 First of all the decision of having an abortion,
04:58 whether or not you do it...
05:02 I don't think it's taken very lightly,
05:04 I think most people do not take it lightly.
05:06 And I was glad that when
05:08 that young person came to me to say,
05:11 "Well, should I even do it or...?"
05:13 I think, they were looking for permission,
05:14 which I couldn't give permission for them to go ahead
05:17 and have this abortion.
05:19 And I remember needing some help
05:21 and actually going to the pregnancy care center,
05:25 counseling type thing,
05:26 and I actually went with them to that center,
05:29 and I was thinking, what would their mother do?
05:31 You know, because they didn't want
05:32 to tell their parents about it,
05:33 so I was sort of the adult that they had and...
05:37 Let me tell you...
05:39 I happened to go to this center and it was so compassionate,
05:41 and I learned so much on how to approach somebody
05:44 without shaming them,
05:45 and how to explain to them
05:47 what the abortion is going to entail.
05:48 I mean, they went to great detail,
05:50 it was heartbreaking,
05:52 and then they went to giving this person option
05:55 on what this young lady could do.
05:58 And, you know, maybe this is how God feels when we go...
06:02 We do a decision that breaks His heart.
06:04 And to this day, I'll never forget when this person
06:08 because the pressure of the guy decided...
06:12 After all this, after all the evidences
06:15 decided to go ahead and do it.
06:17 They were too afraid to live, and to face their parents,
06:20 and face their church, and they had that abortion...
06:24 And I felt like a failure actually,
06:26 I remember taking it really personally and saying,
06:28 "Man, could I have done more."
06:30 But that decision
06:31 is this young person deicide to go through.
06:35 It's difficult and heartbreaking
06:38 and I know a lot of people they agree...
06:43 Abortion should be legal, it should not happen,
06:46 it should not be an option.
06:47 But like Dajanae was saying,
06:49 "They don't provide the support."
06:51 And the issue that most women who find themselves pregnant,
06:56 that's what they need, that's what they want,
06:59 a desire to be able to make the right decision.
07:03 So just to...
07:04 I get to speak to people
07:06 who have young ladies in their church,
07:09 in their communities.
07:11 I'm asking them to do more than just say,
07:15 "Don't have an abortion."
07:16 What is the different types of support
07:18 that they can provide for these women
07:22 who are seriously considering it.
07:27 And let's go with our question first.
07:29 Let's go with it.
07:30 You know, for anybody who then has a doubt
07:32 that this is happening within the church,
07:33 you know, within our church, you know...
07:35 I was reading that, at least in 2015,
07:37 that 70% of the women who go for an abortion
07:42 are self described Christians.
07:45 And many of them don't feel they can go to their church,
07:47 so I love your question.
07:48 Just wanna add that.
07:50 Yes. It's definitely happening.
07:51 We definitely need to do more and I would start...
07:56 My recommendation will be to start with prayer,
07:59 because even as me and my wife,
08:02 when my wife find out she was pregnant,
08:05 there was a concern, there was a fear, trepidation
08:08 as to how we were going to make this thing work.
08:12 And that's where we have to go back to trusting in God
08:17 and asking Him to how,
08:19 "God, help us through this thing,
08:21 help us to deal with this thing,
08:22 help us to put in place some mechanisms right now
08:26 so that when the baby gets here,
08:27 we're ready to go."
08:29 And the reality is
08:30 whether you are 20 years old or 50 years old,
08:34 you're never going to fully be ready to have a child,
08:37 you're going to need God's help through that thing.
08:40 Whether it's through the infancy stages
08:43 and just trying to get used to breast feeding and or nursing.
08:48 And just that whole process
08:49 or whether it's when they are a teenager
08:51 and now they are talking about, can they borrow the car.
08:53 You're going to need God's direction.
08:56 You're going to need his protection.
08:58 And so I believe starting with prayer
09:02 is a good way to walk people off of that ledge,
09:05 and lead them to a deeper understanding
09:08 and a trust in God.
09:10 I always ask the question or try to frame it this way
09:13 that the God has allowed us to live, right?
09:16 And He could have easily said, "No."
09:20 And so we've had that privilege and He is taking care of us,
09:25 so we must trust him
09:26 to also take care of this child who's developing.
09:31 I will back you and I love the idea also...
09:32 And I'm glad you said something about prayer,
09:35 but also somehow find a way to affirm the person.
09:38 Because I do have examples of young ladies
09:40 who did not go through with it,
09:41 and who did not feel they were worthy enough
09:44 to even have the baby, or didn't have what it took.
09:47 And I think that prayer is part of building up
09:50 that self-esteem like,
09:52 yes, God is gonna help you through this.
09:54 And for them to look back and say,
09:55 "Well, I almost didn't have
09:57 this precious thing that I'm holding.
09:58 Almost didn't have that baby."
10:00 And to affirm that person, not shaming them but to say,
10:02 "You know what, the Lord is gonna help you
10:04 and you're gonna have what it takes,
10:06 you're worthy of this motherhood."
10:09 And I think that as churches, local churches,
10:13 there is a way to put together ministries,
10:16 maybe not just for the youth at the church,
10:20 but also as a ministry, as an evangelistic effort
10:26 kind of a ministry that's consistent,
10:29 where there is counseling,
10:31 there are individuals from the church
10:33 that are financially supporting this ministry
10:38 to be able to guide these individuals
10:41 to get groceries when they have the child.
10:44 People who...
10:46 You know, maybe you're retired and you've had children,
10:49 and you've had grandchildren,
10:51 and there are people in the community
10:53 who don't have the parental figures
10:56 like you can be in their life.
10:58 Going with them to the grocery store and saying,
11:01 "You should get your daughter,
11:02 you know, this kind of food or your son,
11:05 this kind of food or these diapers..."
11:07 But that's, that's...
11:09 But being available to this young person
11:13 or to this adult that may be struggling.
11:17 They need to know before hand,
11:19 before either having the child or aborting the child,
11:23 "Will I have a support system?
11:25 And if I...
11:27 maybe I'm well off,
11:28 maybe I have a really, really good job,
11:31 but my husband works all the time
11:33 and I work all the time,
11:34 and I need a support system."
11:36 Because that village
11:37 that we used to have in raising children
11:40 is not in existence as much as it used to be.
11:45 It's still present,
11:47 but it's not as dominant in our society,
11:50 but we all can be a part of someone's community.
11:54 And I think that's something that we need to hear as we,
12:00 I say get pregnant
12:02 and need some help in making the decision
12:06 whether to abort, since the laws
12:09 are that I can or to keep my child,
12:13 and be able to raise my child as a God fearing person.
12:17 I think the reality...
12:19 Just wanting to make sure this is clear.
12:21 We're not telling people, young ladies,
12:26 and abortion is even relevant even in your 20s or 30s.
12:30 We're not saying it is okay
12:32 for you to have non-marital sex.
12:36 We wanna make sure that's not what we're saying.
12:38 But in the era that you did
12:41 and now you find yourself in this position,
12:44 and you're wondering what do I do?
12:46 Because we say the church, we feel like,
12:48 the person might feel as if the church will judge them,
12:52 the issue of being censored...
12:55 Having to deal with all these stuff full of shame,
12:58 you're pregnant and you're told you have to leave the church,
13:01 you can't really be here, you can't have this position,
13:03 you can't do this.
13:04 Or even if you have certain jobs
13:06 in our institutions
13:08 if you become a pregnant,
13:10 it's either you abort the child,
13:13 and you still have your job or you keep the child,
13:17 and you don't have the way to feed the child.
13:19 And for us is that we need to ensure as a church
13:26 that has a strong stance against abortion,
13:29 we have to ensure that we have
13:31 a way to help these people that,
13:34 "Yes, you made a mistake.
13:36 And, yes, we want to help you get forgiveness,
13:38 repentance and all that different stuff.
13:40 There is still another factor to it
13:43 that there is a child within you
13:45 and we don't want you to go away,
13:47 hide in a corner, and abort this child."
13:52 That's a good point.
13:53 And I just wanna feed a little bit more,
13:56 build a little bit more on that
13:58 the process that the church has.
14:00 And I'm a fan of the process when we do it right.
14:05 I think historically, and this is why we end up
14:07 with these situations.
14:08 Historically, we haven't done disciplined right, right?
14:12 It's more of let me smack you on a hand,
14:15 tell you you're wrong, and it's not redemptive.
14:17 But if we look at the way that the structure is set up
14:21 as it relates to church discipline.
14:22 It's actually designed to be redemptive,
14:25 so we wanna make this stance and say,
14:27 "Listen, this is not what we stand for."
14:30 And sometimes there has to be that example for those
14:32 who'll come behind to see,
14:33 "Oh, this is not what Christians do,
14:36 this is not what Adventists do."
14:38 So the process if we do it right,
14:41 it's a beautiful thing,
14:43 and so we need to make sure
14:45 that we're doing it the right way.
14:47 And then when individuals are making decisions,
14:50 we need to educate them,
14:52 we need to communicate with them.
14:53 And I wanna touch on something to that,
14:54 that to not let the audience misconstrue this thing.
14:58 The man is just as important in the conversation
15:02 as the woman.
15:03 And there's a lot of things associated with abortion
15:05 that after the fact.
15:08 It might be 5 years, 10 years down the line, right?
15:11 And you're still emotionally,
15:14 dealing with this thing that has happened.
15:17 So we wanna bring the man and let him know,
15:19 dude, you need to be present, right?
15:22 It's not just be involved in the other thing
15:24 and now this is, this is the females responsibility.
15:27 No, you need to be present because there is a lot of guys
15:30 who've experienced their significant other
15:34 getting an abortion and even they're affected.
15:37 And 18 years down the line, they're thinking like,
15:39 "Wow, my son or daughter would have been
15:42 18 years older at this time."
15:43 You know, what I mean?
15:44 And so we just need to make sure
15:46 that they were having the talk, having the conversation,
15:49 before we get to even a point of having
15:52 to make a decision on whether or not
15:55 we're going to follow through with this abortion
15:58 because the world will tell us, that it's okay.
16:00 But we must understand that there is things
16:02 that the world will say,
16:03 okay, that God has explicitly said are not okay.
16:08 And I would just, you know,
16:09 this is very accurate in 1 Corinthians,
16:13 I believe 6:5, 5 and 6 talks about
16:18 how when you deal with discipline in the church,
16:22 when there is someone who is explicitly sinning,
16:26 and everybody knows
16:28 that this person has chosen sin
16:30 and consistently choose a sin...
16:34 And that you are to discipline
16:37 or that person is to be cast out.
16:40 But the Bible says that, that person is to be cast out
16:43 or handed over to the devil.
16:45 So that they may return, so that they may be restored,
16:48 so that they may return from their ways,
16:50 and know that Christ way is better.
16:52 And it's not they should figure it out themself,
16:56 but they're supposed to be a active part
16:59 that you're still supposed to play
17:01 in that person's life through that process.
17:04 You're not handing them over
17:06 just because they're gonna defile the rest of the group.
17:10 That's not a loving reaction.
17:14 And I say, sin,
17:16 and I don't think we think about...
17:20 I don't think enough of us think about abortion
17:23 like do we classify abortion as a sin.
17:26 There are different views about the,
17:31 what's happening medically with the body...
17:34 What's actually happening with the body
17:35 and because the child does not yet have the breath of life,
17:40 that the child is not yet alive.
17:43 I know that's a view that exists
17:46 and so is it murder
17:49 or is it something
17:51 that may not be considered as harsh as murder,
17:56 but something softer
17:58 but close still in that category
18:01 of ending a life
18:04 that you actually participated,
18:09 that you actually created, you actually...
18:11 You went through the process
18:13 knowingly in a way that this was a possibility.
18:17 And I think that goes into,
18:19 "What if I was raped then what?
18:26 It's very, very difficult
18:28 and there are some circumstances,
18:30 where a person's life may be in jeopardy.
18:33 And so what do you do and I've heard of,
18:37 haven't necessarily experienced these situations
18:39 where mom and baby are in a bed, right?
18:43 And the doctor is like,
18:44 "Listen, you're gonna lose one of them."
18:45 Right. You got to make that decision.
18:47 And I've heard a mother saying,
18:48 "Listen, keep the baby, loose me." Right?
18:51 And so that the husband has to make that decision.
18:54 And so there are circumstances
18:56 where you have to make a decision, but where...
18:59 I believe we're talking about in the optimal situation
19:04 where it's not life at stake, but you're just saying,
19:07 "Listen, I don't wanna go through with this."
19:10 There is a old saying, you've made your bed,
19:12 now you got to lie on it, right?
19:14 And that's the thing.
19:15 And so now we're trusting in God to say,
19:17 "Hey, help me go beyond this point."
19:20 And as a church we do,
19:21 we do need to be more active in this process,
19:26 because you don't want individuals...
19:28 This is another thing that has happened
19:30 and I've experienced this
19:31 where they will pursue getting an abortion right now, right?
19:37 But then want to continue going on
19:40 latter with the opportunity of having more children.
19:43 Okay, well, you plan to have children in the future,
19:45 but you just don't wanna do this thing right now.
19:48 And so now it's more about me, right?
19:51 It's not about me representing God,
19:53 it's about me glorifying self.
19:55 And that's when we get ourselves in trouble.
19:58 And I think, I was informed...
20:00 I was informed that on the issue of rape
20:05 and getting pregnant as the result of rape.
20:08 That's less than 1% of the reasons
20:12 why people actually get abortions.
20:14 And so the position of the church
20:18 is not that abortion should never,
20:21 ever, ever, ever, ever happen as you say,
20:24 Keith, there's some people
20:25 have to make that decision because the...
20:28 Pregnancy can actually take their life.
20:31 And so then that's like, that's a grey area of is this,
20:37 should I make, what decision should I make?
20:39 Which decision will God want me to make?
20:42 Is it selfish that I want to live
20:45 and this child doesn't even understand
20:46 the meaning of life yet?
20:49 And so that...
20:50 But those circumstances are less, like you said,
20:54 the thing that we're discussing here
20:57 is the individual who has chosen
21:00 to participate in intercourse,
21:03 whether in the context of marriage
21:05 or outside of the context of marriage and is now saying,
21:09 "I don't want the product
21:11 or the result of what I chose to participate in."
21:16 That is exactly what we are talking about,
21:19 but as you said it before,
21:20 there are those extreme cases
21:22 and Seventh-day Adventist church,
21:24 we have a stance that says,
21:26 in those extreme most severe cases
21:29 they make exceptions for abortion,
21:32 because it's not initially
21:35 what God intended to concerns of...
21:38 As you said, Keith, before
21:39 "Do I choose me or my child and the life of the child?"
21:44 But there are people who do say,
21:46 "No, I'm not going to have the abortion,
21:49 I'm going to have this child."
21:52 And it's interesting the flip that happens,
21:57 when someone has a child
22:00 that might have some sort of disability
22:03 and they say, "I'm going to have the child."
22:06 How the church responds?
22:08 If they're healthy,
22:09 and they're gonna have a healthy child.
22:11 Okay, yes, sure you must definitely have it.
22:13 But if the child is "not" we might assume
22:15 is not healthy or not perfect,
22:18 people might be like, "What you doing,
22:20 it's a no-brainer.
22:21 You should have the abortion."
22:23 They need to have support,
22:25 if there that's gonna be their decision,
22:27 because it's gonna be a hard journey for them
22:30 to try to provide the best that child can possibly have.
22:35 And even for the case where it is option between my wife
22:38 or she told me to choose the baby,
22:40 I choose the baby.
22:41 Now I'm all alone.
22:43 And that's part of
22:44 we have an excellent system in place by the church,
22:48 it's just that all the churches are not utilizing it
22:51 to strengthen that causes the family
22:54 to make sure they are...
22:55 everyone is educated not just only our young people,
22:59 young adults, middle class,
23:01 a lot of other people are confused
23:03 and don't really...
23:05 It's kind of interesting
23:06 that a lot of people don't fully understand
23:08 that sex produces children.
23:10 It's like it clicks but doesn't click.
23:13 And we have a responsibility as the church,
23:17 we have responsibility in our local communities to speak
23:22 and say something
23:23 and be that support and to help.
23:27 And I can't keep on saying support, support, support,
23:30 more than enough because,
23:32 yes, we do want to condemn the sex.
23:34 Yes, we do want to state that it was a sin
23:37 that it shouldn't have happened in that context.
23:39 But prenatal life, that's one thing
23:42 that we need to remember is
23:44 God chooses for the child
23:49 to be created.
23:51 He could have said, "No."
23:53 Even though it was happening at that time
23:55 where it shouldn't...
23:57 where nothing should have been taken place.
23:58 He still said, "Yes, prenatal life
24:01 is precious to him."
24:03 Because that child was
24:04 still being formed in the image of God.
24:06 So when we look at life in that fashion
24:09 that it is not just something that can happen
24:12 just by exhaling.
24:15 We have to help these...
24:20 Not just the women also the men.
24:22 And Keith wanted to take a minute
24:23 to talk about the men.
24:26 Because there is strong cases where he wants that baby,
24:31 he found out and he smiling from ear to ear,
24:33 and she is like what is wrong with you.
24:35 That's what we're talking about how we just view for the men.
24:38 If I can just share a story
24:40 and did before I talk about the men.
24:42 Just an example of support, we were at a church
24:46 and a young lady ended up pregnant, this was...
24:49 They weren't married
24:51 and so she's considering whether
24:53 she should get an abortion.
24:54 And so we know that there is this process now
24:57 the church knows that she is pregnant,
24:58 we have to do the whole church discipline
25:00 and things like that.
25:01 But I think maybe individuals may need an example
25:04 of what support looks like.
25:05 And so we're not condoning.
25:07 We didn't, as a church condone the act, right?
25:11 But as you mentioned having a baby come to full term
25:14 and be brought into this world is a blessing.
25:16 There are millions and millions of individuals
25:18 who would love to have that experience.
25:20 It's a blessing. And so what we did was...
25:23 We did the whole church discipline thing,
25:24 but I then came to the church and I said, listen,
25:27 we're now responsible for this child,
25:29 this is our child.
25:31 We didn't have the conversations before,
25:33 and so we're going to now take responsibility.
25:38 This is not just her having a baby.
25:40 This is us having a baby.
25:42 So we're gonna plan the baby shower
25:43 and this could be considered difficult or things
25:46 like that for some people.
25:47 But we're gonna plan the baby shower
25:48 and we're not promoting the act,
25:50 but we're embracing the fact that there is a baby,
25:52 an innocent baby coming into this world.
25:54 Who now we have to support
25:58 and gather around to the support,
26:00 to the point of the man he wanted the child,
26:03 but he didn't necessarily want the responsibility.
26:07 And so we had to have a deeper discussion there as well...
26:13 And it takes communication, it takes communication,
26:16 it takes support,
26:17 and it takes us doing things in a way that is redemptive,
26:22 and restores individuals back to their rightful stage,
26:25 and not tears them down.
26:27 And I think when people know that,
26:28 then they will be able to make a better decision.
26:30 You know, Keith, you mentioned about embracing the baby,
26:33 the baby shower even and, you know,
26:34 I've been a part of a community
26:36 that even has had dedication of the baby itself
26:40 who's a innocent life.
26:42 And I think this is about the church support
26:45 to simply being an extension of who Jesus is and Jesus...
26:48 Where He would go and how He would treat people.
26:51 So discipline is not, it seem like shunning
26:53 and this is an opportunity for God's grace.
26:56 That's right.
26:58 I think one thing to...
27:00 as we're summing-up
27:02 that we need to have take responsibility for our actions.
27:06 I understand that sex really did produced this child
27:09 and to press forward with that
27:13 and just to do what God is calling us to do.
27:17 We want you to keep on having the conversation,
27:19 it is not an easy topic,
27:21 there is a lot of different stances,
27:22 and views, and perspectives,
27:24 but what is it that God is calling you
27:28 to do in regards to their situation,
27:30 to support maybe a young lady that you see in the church
27:32 who is pregnant
27:34 and maybe she might be considering absorption.
27:36 What can you do in your churches
27:37 to support our young people, not even young people,
27:42 any age group to make the right decision.
27:44 The Bible talks about the fear of the Lord
27:48 and also that children are a gift from God.
27:51 So as you're contemplating what to do,
27:54 pray to God and make pure choices.
27:57 That's right.