Participants: Brittany Hill-Morales (Host), Dajanae Anderson, Sabine Vatel
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000135A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:40 Welcome to Pure Choices. 00:42 My name is Brittany Hill-Morales 00:43 and I'm the host for today's program. 00:45 We have a really great topic today. 00:48 We're talking about church leaders 00:50 in pornography, sexual sins. 00:52 But before we jump into this conversation, 00:54 let's pray. 00:56 Dear kind and most heavenly Father, 00:57 dear Lord, we pray that 00:59 as we're about to have this discussion 01:00 that You will be with us here 01:01 and also be with the viewers at home. 01:03 We love You so much, in Jesus' name, amen. 01:06 Amen. Amen. 01:08 As we're about to begin 01:10 I had two wonderful ladies over here on the couch. 01:12 We have Sabine Vatel and also Dajanae Anderson. 01:16 Thank you guys so much for being here 01:18 and being willing to talk about this important topic, 01:21 church leadership and pornography. 01:26 A while ago there was a situation 01:27 where a website where couples, 01:30 married couples were engaging each other, 01:33 trying to do things that were not right, 01:36 sexual sins. 01:39 And as the list came out 01:42 with the different names of people, 01:45 it came to the light that some of these couples, 01:48 these married couples were church leaders. 01:51 And before there was an outrage by this website 01:54 but it was at different level 01:56 because they're church leaders. 01:59 And it seems like church leaders 02:00 have a different sort of responsibility, 02:02 different sort of a burden when it comes to sexual sins. 02:07 Well, how do you feel about that? 02:10 I think that it makes sense to me. 02:13 I understand why people feel that way 02:17 and it's not all the way wrong. 02:21 But I also believe that most people who feel like 02:26 church leaders should not have sexual temptation 02:31 or even may possibly even fall into that sexual temptation, 02:36 I don't believe that's realistic. 02:39 I don't believe that that is even biblical. 02:42 In terms of the history of salvation, 02:45 there is evidence that church leaders, 02:47 God's people sometimes falls into sin 02:52 but the reaction, the thing that still labels a person 02:56 as a child of God 02:57 and as a vessel to consistently be used by God 03:01 is the ability to be rebuked by God 03:04 and to receive that rebuke in repentance. 03:07 And so there's a... 03:09 But I believe that there's a, there's a false expectation. 03:13 There's a false expectation that is given on to leaders 03:17 that, yes, we should pray for our leaders, 03:19 we want them to make, they are examples 03:22 but when they fall, do we... 03:24 Are we as loving to them as maybe they were loving to us 03:29 or people in our congregations, 03:32 the people that we sit next to 03:35 during church time, during counseling? 03:39 Are we just as merciful to our church leaders 03:42 as we may be to our children 03:44 or even to maybe our parents 03:46 and when we find out that they may have done something 03:50 that was in upscale within Christian morality? 03:55 Yeah, well, you know, I've... 03:57 I think the reaction in terms of, I being a Christian, 04:01 people put down the leaders as much, 04:04 may be there were some that we're very disappointed 04:06 but what struck me was there was a sense of, 04:08 maybe mocking or gotcha, 04:11 you know, you thought you were so good 04:12 and you're not exactly who you portray to be." 04:15 So there was a sense of there we go again, 04:17 of course, they're going to do that, 04:18 you know, people who don't... 04:19 obviously who are Christian, 04:21 who don't expect much from Christianity 04:22 or Christian leaders, 04:23 I think they got more of a mocking. 04:26 The expectations are not high for Christian leaders 04:29 in secular circles in my experience. 04:32 One thing that someone told me was pastors are humans too, 04:37 church leaders are humans too... 04:39 That's a question or... 04:41 No, we are. 04:42 No, they are humans too. Yeah, yeah. 04:43 We as church leaders are humans, too. 04:45 Yes, yes. 04:46 Because we all serve as church leaders on different... 04:49 Since I was maybe 11, 12 different things 04:52 with pathfinders, 04:53 all these different organizations in the church 04:55 serving, people expect different from you. 05:00 They expect this level of perfection, 05:03 but church leaders are humans too. 05:07 And I mean, look at the origin of sin, 05:09 you look at the theology of sin. 05:12 Human, humanity fell in the garden, 05:16 we all are marred 05:17 and there are different things 05:19 that we're going to struggle with, 05:21 and sexuality is one of those things 05:23 and one of the things that is more hidden is pornography. 05:28 Viewing images, videos 05:31 and even maybe taking it a step further 05:33 and actually relieving yourselves to masturbation, 05:36 watching pornography, 05:38 and church leaders may want healing from this, 05:42 but they have a different level of struggle 05:44 because they're church leaders 05:47 and everyone expects them to be perfect. 05:50 Yeah, I think that that's very real. 05:53 There are examples like I said in the Bible that show 05:58 that, yes, there are that God... 06:01 There is a standard, 06:02 you know, we're not saying that there isn't a standard 06:06 that shouldn't be in place. 06:07 When you are in leadership, 06:08 you do have a larger responsibility 06:12 to be that example just as when you're a parent, 06:15 you have a larger responsibility to your child 06:18 than the person down the street has to your child. 06:21 And so in that same reality, 06:25 yes, there is a responsibility 06:27 but within that responsibility 06:29 when I mess up, 06:31 whether it be sexual or otherwise 06:35 What is, is your response redemptive 06:38 or is your response to make me feel ashamed of myself, 06:44 ashamed of the sin is different from making, 06:47 trying to make me feel, 06:48 like, I should be ashamed of myself. 06:51 And so in that same respect 06:52 what are we doing to our male leaders in the church, 06:57 what are we doing to our female leaders in the church 07:00 when we find out, yes, they have counseled us 07:03 and they have given us the counsel of the Lord 07:06 but they are still human beings that struggle with receiving 07:09 the counsel that God has given them directly. 07:13 I think, for me personally I can be minister to some, 07:18 by someone who is honest about their struggle, 07:23 and I think there's a difference between struggle 07:26 and... Indulgement. 07:27 Indulgence, yeah, indulgement. 07:29 And so if I'm indulging myself into the sin 07:35 and I'm hiding it and acting like it doesn't exist 07:38 and I'm condemning you, 07:41 but I'm keeping mine a secret, 07:43 then I'm much more frustrated 07:46 with that sort of church leader 07:49 where as if you... 07:51 The Bible says, you know, judge not 07:54 lest you to be judged, 07:56 for in what manner you judge you shall also be judged. 07:59 And so with that I believe that many of us 08:02 we take that passage 08:04 and we interpret it incorrectly 08:07 because there are also passages in 1 Corinthians 08:10 that talk about Christians judging each other 08:14 with the righteous judgment 08:16 and for the purpose of redemption. 08:18 And so those two things coming together, 08:20 if I am judging you, 08:23 if I am saying that this is wrong 08:26 as a church leader, 08:27 then I am to still be humble and meek 08:30 understanding that even if I'm not indulge 08:34 and indulging myself in sexual sin 08:37 that I am not above the possibility of falling 08:41 that we are all... 08:42 That sin is crouching at our doors, 08:45 whether we are church leaders or otherwise. 08:47 And I think if we have that mentality, 08:50 then we will be able to be much more merciful 08:54 to those who fall. 08:55 And be a resource 08:57 for those who are struggling as well too, you know. 08:59 It's not a small thing to come out of the darkness 09:02 and say, this is what I'm struggling with, 09:05 even if you're, I won't say regular person 09:07 but if you're not a leader, 09:09 but if you're a leader and you're visible, 09:10 it is a huge energy and courage to go, to come out and say, 09:14 "This is what I'm struggling with." 09:16 And you mention the hoc 09:19 and there was a very publicized case 09:22 in which this religion teacher was caught. 09:25 He was part of those people who were named in that website 09:29 and his shame was so strong that he committed suicide. 09:33 He didn't, you know, and his wife, 09:35 and speaking with her, she said in the article 09:37 that she would have forgiven him, 09:38 his children would have forgiven him 09:40 and he did not, he was not able to receive the grace 09:42 that he himself had lived to other people. 09:45 So, you know, suicide is not the way, 09:49 hiding and denying it is not the way 09:50 but to come out into the light 09:52 and allow God to give you that healing that you need. 09:59 Yeah. I'm sorry, were you... 10:00 No, no, I'm good sister. 10:02 Because I didn't want to interrupt you 10:06 but there's a, like you were talking about the isolation 10:09 that takes place amongst leadership 10:12 and we're not saying, 10:13 right, that every church leader needs to expose themselves 10:17 to their congregation. 10:20 That's not what we're saying. 10:23 I don't think that's wise. 10:25 Be real, be authentic. Yes, yes. 10:26 Right. Yeah, definitely be... Right. 10:29 Yeah, you are not to give like 10:31 through the details of all your struggle 10:32 and be all graphic about it 10:34 but to let people know that your fellow journeyer 10:37 that you're on that road together 10:40 Yeah, and I also think 10:42 before you even try to do the whole, 10:44 I'm going to go and tell my whole church... 10:47 Yes. 10:48 You need to repent to be forgiven. 10:50 And even before we repent to be forgiven, 10:52 you need to not minimize the sin. 10:54 Oh, yeah. 10:55 And that's the number one thing that most people do is like, 10:58 "Okay, it's not that bad..." 10:59 It's not, I'm not, especially when it comes to pornography, 11:01 church leaders might say, 11:03 you now, I'm not really hurting anyone, 11:05 I'm just in the back room on my computer, 11:08 on my phone, 11:09 no one's really seeing anything. 11:11 You know, they're doing those things to minimize it. 11:13 "Oh, yes, I'm doing, you know, masturbation, 11:15 it's to myself, it's not like I'm with somebody else." 11:18 They continue to minimize and minimize, minimize 11:21 and as they're minimizing 11:22 the sin is becoming more prevalent in their lives 11:25 and it's taking over until one day 11:27 they might wake up and it's like, 11:29 "Wait, my name is on a list." 11:30 And it's out of fear or someone might catch them, 11:33 they might have forgotten to clear their browsing history 11:36 because they've gotten so comfortable 11:37 with their ability to be able to hide it. 11:40 So you're minimizing the sin not repenting, 11:44 not asking God for forgiveness, 11:45 no, you need to say this is the problem... 11:48 I have an issue, a concern. Right. 11:51 And it's better to do it before you get caught. 11:56 I'm going to talk about it in a minute 11:57 when you get caught 11:59 but if you are still able to 12:00 "Be successful in your hiding... 12:04 Stop..." Yeah. 12:06 "You need to come to this point 12:07 where you realize something's going on..." 12:09 And if you can't stop, get some help to help you... 12:10 Get some help. 12:12 To help you stop, right, 12:13 because if you think it's not going to affect 12:15 other aspect of your life. 12:16 It is, you're going to leak 12:18 basically an aspect of your lives. 12:20 I think there's a... 12:21 In with most things 12:23 we are made to live in community. 12:27 God has created us to live in community. 12:30 And so if you cannot... 12:31 I can understand being a church leader, 12:35 I can understand not letting... 12:39 If I'm not telling my mentee 12:41 everything that I'm telling my best friend. 12:45 That's just, it's not wise 12:47 because there's an expectation here 12:49 where you should still be transparent, 12:53 you should still be authentic in both relationships. 12:58 There's a community I believe that everyone, 13:01 the people who suffer the most, 13:03 church leaders who suffer the most 13:05 don't feel like they have anywhere to go 13:09 to be their authentic selves 13:12 And there is a danger with only being pastor, 13:15 with only being a church leader if that's your only identity. 13:21 If that's where you identify yourself the most 13:24 and you feel like I can't be human, 13:27 then situations like what you just named suicide 13:31 when people realize that I'm not perfect 13:33 because I'm trying to live as if I am perfect in public 13:38 where only I knew about my sin, 13:41 now other people know about my sin. 13:42 That can be extremely traumatizing 13:46 and extremely overwhelming for the church leader. 13:49 And I just wanted to add really quickly 13:51 one thing that church leaders need to do is 13:55 look yourself in the mirror and say, 13:57 "I am not perfect. 13:59 Church leadership doesn't mean I am perfect." 14:03 God may have blessed to have you, 14:05 maybe be the pastor, 14:06 be the pastor's spouse, 14:08 be the person in charge of the youth, 14:10 all these different church related positions 14:12 but it's not because you're perfect. 14:14 That's not really why you're called to serve. 14:17 So that's one thing to be honest and say, 14:19 "I'm not perfect, I have problems, 14:20 I have faults 14:22 and this is the problem that I'm having, 14:23 I'm facing right now." 14:25 And like we were saying earlier, 14:26 it's not just males, it's also females. 14:30 And I feel females have a different level of concern 14:35 because we're supposed to be non-sexual beings. 14:38 We're not supposed to be visual sexual beings, 14:42 that's what most people assume, 14:44 so when you're caught in pornography 14:45 as a female most people like, "What? 14:48 That's not right, something's wrong with you." 14:50 And most women who might be viewing this program right now 14:52 is saying, "I'm most likely the only female 14:54 who ever struggled with pornography 14:57 and I'm a church leader, 14:58 something is awful with me," 14:59 and that's not the case. 15:01 Right. 15:02 You know, that's where accountability comes into. 15:04 I mean, even trying some help, 15:06 praying for who to go to obviously 15:08 and telling the truth about who you are, 15:10 telling the truth to God about who you are... 15:12 He knows but so much you need to tell it to yourself 15:16 and then just say, "God, here I am. 15:18 I'm laying myself in front of you." 15:20 And I think what's important to have is accountability, 15:25 this idea that you, leadership does not happen, 15:27 you said it in isolation 15:29 and to see that accountability from other leaders, you know. 15:32 Yes, and so into the topic of women 15:35 and engaging in pornography as well, 15:39 there is, like you said a stigma 15:41 that that's something that men do. 15:43 That something that only strictly men do 15:45 because men are predominately visual, 15:49 that does not mean that women are not visual at all. 15:52 And so if you take just natural... 15:56 If you take a surface observation of women, 16:00 if you are a woman or if you listen to women talk, 16:03 you can look at a man and say that he's attracted. 16:07 You care about, you know, maybe the way he holds himself 16:11 in his stature 16:13 and how the way he grooms himself. 16:16 There are women are also visual and so you're not by yourself. 16:23 You're not alone in the reality that women are also visual, 16:29 maybe not as visual as men. 16:32 And so that doesn't have to be... 16:35 That's not a true... 16:37 That's not a true fact. 16:39 Yes. Right. 16:40 Like I said, that's not a true fact. 16:43 It's believed and people say it as fact 16:47 but it's not scientifically or spiritually accurate. 16:51 And you know, and pornography, 16:52 and as you're speaking I'm thinking of us, 16:54 yeah, it is visual. 16:56 When speaking to a mentor 16:57 somebody who exemplified being open 17:01 had struggle with pornography in terms of the written word 17:04 because I remember learning 17:05 that women words do something to you 17:08 and so if they're going to images, 17:10 especially went to words which conjure up ideas 17:13 that were pornographic, yeah, that they were... 17:16 Yeah, that she was escaping 17:17 and she got to get help for that 17:19 before she could actually be helpful to other people 17:21 who are struggling with that type of issue. 17:23 Right, right. Yeah. 17:25 That's still, I mean, to me in my mind 17:27 and maybe, maybe this is technically, 17:30 you know, not with... 17:32 It's not popular belief, 17:34 but the books that are extremely graphic 17:38 about sexuality and affairs, 17:42 these books actually, 17:43 you know, people read and that's pornography. 17:46 I mean, it is pornography... 17:47 It may not be the magazines... 17:49 Right. Yeah, it's a female version. 17:50 It changes your mind. 17:52 Because it allows you, 17:53 it's even in a sense more dangerous 17:56 because you can put anyone 17:58 into that role of what you're reading. 18:01 You can take people that you see 18:06 on a day to day basis and put their face on that... 18:10 Right, it's very, very dangerous. 18:13 And so that's something that I know more women, 18:17 in my limited perspective, 18:20 I've seen more women read those sorts of books 18:24 than I have men read those sorts of books, 18:26 but it's still pornography. 18:28 And I've seen it be minimized actually... 18:30 That this is not so bad, 18:32 and I think you made the very important point 18:33 that it's just as harmful. 18:35 It is, it is. It's just as harmful. 18:38 So we talked about a little bit about pornography, 18:40 church leadership 18:42 and struggling with the sin, 18:44 but what happens when you're caught 18:46 and everyone knows? 18:49 What happens to you when you're caught 18:51 and everybody knows as the church leader? 18:54 What happens to the spouse, 18:56 the children, even the parents? 18:58 Let's talk a little bit about that? 19:01 Well, you know, I think 19:02 hopefully the person is humbled. 19:04 And early in my experience, I had a... 19:07 A church leader that I really looked up to 19:09 and respected and was caught 19:11 and in addition to that he was caught having an affair 19:13 which is oftentimes a result 19:15 of filling your mind with strangers, 19:18 people who you put faces to, 19:19 suddenly you're like, you know what, I want to... 19:21 I'm going to act it out. 19:22 And that's what he did. 19:23 And I can tell you sitting there 19:25 in that group of other leaders 19:27 and hearing his confession, his tears, 19:31 his sobbing, 19:33 there was a lot of shame there 19:35 because he had been caught 19:37 but with the humility, 19:39 I mean, surely he was a broken person 19:40 and I have so many mixed feelings 19:44 but what I saw and grateful for 19:47 is that this person was wanting to be 19:48 on a journey of redemption. 19:50 He's like, "I will do anything to get back into, 19:53 to gain back your respect. 19:54 I will do anything. 19:55 I'm repenting and I want a different life. 19:58 And as leaders, in fact, I'm not perfect 20:03 and I'm tired of playing that role," 20:05 he said something to that effect. 20:06 And you know what? 20:08 He did that, he went through, 20:09 he put himself under the leadership of another leader 20:11 and went to that journey... 20:12 Yeah, in humility, and accountability 20:14 with his wife 20:16 and doing everything necessary to show his transformation. 20:19 And so I think humility is important. 20:21 Yes, definitely, humility is definitely important. 20:24 You know, we have the story of David, 20:27 right and even though David wasn't caught in pornography, 20:30 it was still sexual sin. 20:32 And so as we group pornography and sexual sin 20:35 as the same things. 20:37 We can say that... It's not minimized. 20:39 Right, it's not minimized. 20:41 It's not appropriate to minimize it, 20:43 it is not minimized in the eyes of God. 20:45 It is still sexual sin. 20:47 And so when we look at the story of David 20:50 and Nathan came to him in rebuke. 20:54 It was for the purpose once again of restoration, 20:58 it wasn't for the purpose of, 21:00 you know, now I'm going to tell all of Israel 21:02 and you know, now you should feel ashamed of yourself, 21:06 where he did, 21:07 you know, there is a process of feeling ashamed, 21:10 but in David's household after, 21:12 you know, he impregnated Bathsheba and all of that, 21:15 his household they were mourning for him, 21:19 they were praying for him. 21:21 Nathan was still interceding on his behalf. 21:27 And so as Christians, 21:31 that as Christians and this is what, 21:33 yes, there is another standard in leadership, 21:36 but as Christians we understand 21:38 that we are supposed to be shepherding the world. 21:42 We are supposed to be shepherding the nation. 21:44 The pastor is the shepherd of the shepherds, right? 21:49 Ultimately God is all is our shepherd 21:52 but there's this myth, 21:55 the Lord allows us to participate in His ministry. 21:58 And so just as, you know, as an example 22:01 God is the creator, 22:03 He allows humans to participate in procreation. 22:06 And so in that same principle, God is the shepherd, 22:10 but He allows us to shepherd others 22:12 and so as we have this standard for our leaders 22:17 in sexual, you know, sexual immorality 22:19 you know, we should, 22:20 we should also have the same expectation of ourselves. 22:24 And so how do we... 22:26 How are we demonstrating Christ's love 22:29 to these leaders 22:30 that are falling into sexual sin? 22:33 Do we allow them privacy? 22:35 Do we allow them to have their accountability groups 22:39 or do we say that we need to know all of their business. 22:42 No, I don't believe that that's appropriate, 22:44 that we need to allow our church leaders 22:47 to have accountability groups 22:50 and to have some sort of privacy 22:52 so they can be encouraged 22:54 and they can be vulnerable in a way 22:56 that I don't want to hear all of my pastor's business, 23:00 you know, necessary, I don't unless I'm counseling him. 23:05 If I'm counseling him, that's one thing. 23:07 But if I'm just sitting in the congregation, 23:09 there are some people who don't want to hear 23:11 because everyone is at 23:13 different levels of faith, right? 23:15 The Bible talks about 23:16 how different things can be stumbling blocks. 23:19 And so it can be a stumbling block 23:22 for me to hear that my pastor has done this. 23:25 And so I don't think it's appropriate for us 23:28 to force our leaders to expose themselves 23:31 to the whole congregation 23:33 because you may be okay with hearing that, 23:35 but the person who just got baptized 23:38 or the person who just rededicated 23:40 their lives to Christ 23:42 may not be able to take that 23:43 and then possibly look at God as an unjust God 23:48 because they see that people can fall 23:52 and they're not ready to receive that information yet. 23:55 Turning back again on the whole, 23:56 you're caught in the pornography, 23:58 what does the community doing? 23:59 I want to just highlight what you said, 24:01 pray for the person. 24:04 Don't shame them, 24:05 don't be like, "Oh, look at what you did," 24:07 Pray for them, support them, 24:09 help them to be able to get the resources 24:11 that they need to heal. 24:13 I also want to add that the spouses need support. 24:18 Because some of the things that they might be wondering is 24:21 why is it my spouse go to pornography, 24:24 the husband might be, am I not good enough, 24:25 am I not satisfying her, 24:27 that's a big thing for me. 24:28 Am I not doing what I'm supposed to do. 24:30 And women will be questioning themselves also 24:33 why is my husband looking at other women? 24:35 Am I not beautiful enough? 24:37 Am I not attractive enough? 24:38 And when a leader is caught in pornography, sexual sin, 24:44 we shouldn't just toss everyone to the side, 24:47 they need support also 24:49 to build up their self, their self-esteem, 24:51 their self image in God 24:53 to realize that they are what they need to be 24:55 and this is something completely different 24:57 out of them. 24:58 There's nothing... 25:00 There's no reason why the husband, 25:02 the wife did it related to them. 25:05 It wasn't because they were inefficient 25:07 that they weren't enough... 25:08 Right. Is a struggle that's within. 25:11 Right, right and I think that's very true. 25:13 I think the statistics actually show 25:15 that people who are engaged in pornography 25:18 in their adult life, 25:20 they get engaged in pornography 25:22 in like their junior high school age, 25:26 around when puberty first starts 25:28 and some even younger than that. 25:30 And so as you take on that, that understanding, 25:34 you know, wives, if your husband 25:36 is engaged in pornography 25:38 or, husbands, if your wives are engaged in pornography, 25:41 it's not personal, 25:43 it's something that more than likely 25:46 started way before they even met their spouse. 25:50 And so understanding that this is... 25:53 It's not a personal thing 25:55 but it is a spirit, it is spiritual. 25:57 And it is addicting. 26:00 It is something that they may, like you said before 26:05 hate themselves for 26:07 or feel disgusted with themselves for 26:09 and so to... 26:11 For you to also add on to that disgust is, 26:15 can really be even further demoralizing 26:20 because maybe you loved me and your love for me 26:24 is a part of what kept me to fight this thing, 26:27 but now that I feel like your love has grown less 26:33 then now, you know, I might want to commit suicide 26:37 or I might feel like I can no longer be used by God. 26:40 And so I will no longer pastor, 26:43 I will no longer be the elder or the deacon 26:46 and things like that. 26:47 And that's not the redemptive Gospel of Jesus Christ. 26:52 And so I believe that that's the... 26:54 Like what you just said, that's what, that's our, 26:56 that should be our response. 26:58 How can we bring this person closer to Christ? 27:00 How can we? 27:02 And let's not wait to pray for our leaders, 27:05 you know, you don't know what they're going through. 27:08 So you need to start praying for them 27:09 now would be, would be super important as well. 27:13 And hopefully we don't wait till they discovered 27:15 to be able to say this is what I'm going through, 27:18 they reach out for help. 27:20 And as we are wrapping up, 27:21 I want to be able to speak 27:23 just pertaining to the church leaders. 27:25 If you know you're in the sexual sin, repent. 27:29 And if you have repent, accept God's forgiveness. 27:33 And members who may know about this sexual sin 27:35 accept that God has forgiven them 27:37 and press forward. 27:39 2 Corinthians 5:17 says, 27:41 "This means that anyone who belongs to Christ 27:43 has become a new person. 27:44 The old life is gone and a new life has begun." 27:49 If you have done what is needed, 27:50 God has forgiven you. 27:52 So go, press forward and make pure choices. 27:55 Thank you. |
Revised 2017-08-20