Participants: Whitley Phipps (Host), Adly Campos, Dr E. T. Stoddart, Ruthie Jacobson
Series Code: PFM
Program Code: PFM000002A
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00:26 Hi, I'm Wintley Phipps, and welcome to our program
00:30 Perfecting Me, Becoming More Like Jesus. 00:35 I'm so glad you've joined us. 00:37 My guests today on our program are Ruthie Jacobson, 00:40 head of Prayer Ministry of the North American Division 00:43 of Seventh-day Adventist, Pastor Errol Stoddard, 00:46 Pastor, Senior Pastor of the Church of the Oranges 00:49 of Seventh-day Adventist in Orange, New Jersey, 00:52 and Mrs. Adly Campos, speaker, 00:55 and president of the Family Well-Being International. 00:58 They will be joining our discussion 01:00 a little later in the program. 01:03 This program is dedicated to the belief 01:05 that there is nothing more important, 01:07 or more exciting you can do with your life 01:10 than to become every day more like Jesus. 01:14 We trust you will find joy, and being able to say, 01:18 "Everyday, Jesus is molding me, shaping me, 01:22 and everyday He is perfecting me." 01:27 Over the last 200 years, 01:30 there is a word that has progressively 01:32 and gradually fallen from our vocabulary, 01:35 and from our focus and priorities as humans, 01:38 and even as Christians. 01:41 It is a word that has almost been expunged 01:43 and purged from our spiritual consciousness. 01:47 Today, this word of which I speak 01:49 is as unpopular as a politician's promise. 01:54 It is now shun by many like the plague. 01:57 It is now viewed by many with scorn, derision, 02:01 and even disdain. 02:04 And nowhere have I seen the decline 02:06 of this word's presence 02:07 and influence more than in the church. 02:12 Today in the church, this word is seen by 02:14 many as unfashionable, and out of favor. 02:17 Frankly, it is a word I seldom hear used 02:20 in modern praise and worship to God. 02:23 Today, this word of which I speak 02:25 seems to scare the daylights out of Christians. 02:29 It is not a word from films of horror, 02:31 it is not a blood curling word, 02:33 not some beastly wild profanity, 02:35 neither is it some vulgarity that has gained acceptance 02:39 in our sacrilegious irreverent world. 02:42 To the contrary, this word of which I speak 02:45 is a most beautiful and compelling word. 02:48 It is a challenging and inspiring word. 02:51 It is a word that should stir us 02:53 and motivate us. 02:54 A word that should lift our sights, 02:56 and move us to consider the limitless possibilities 03:00 offered to us by our loving God. 03:03 This word is a visionary word, a shimmering, sparkling word, 03:07 a word that lifts our sights from earth to heaven. 03:10 This word of which I speak is the word, perfect. 03:15 Yes, perfect. 03:17 Today we will try to understand 03:19 how such a beautiful word has become unfashionable, 03:22 and fallen out of favor in the Christian world. 03:26 I've been blessed to get to know a dear brother 03:28 in the Lord, his name is Dave Blakeslee. 03:30 Dave is a potter who loves the Lord, 03:32 and God's process for molding us 03:34 and shaping us reminds me 03:36 so much of the work of David Blakeslee. 03:39 As he tries to fashion vessels for the Lord 03:42 that are as perfect as possible. 03:45 Let us go into his shop and see Dave at work. 03:53 What actually I'm going to do here 03:55 is to create a hole in the middle. 03:59 Call it opening up. 04:03 Right down to the very center, the core. 04:09 Throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament, 04:12 the word heart is used a lot. 04:16 Truly, not so much the emotional heart 04:19 that we think of romantically. 04:21 As it is the core of our being. 04:24 The very center of what we are, who we are as a person. 04:31 And the interesting thing about God is, 04:34 He doesn't do an outside work on us 04:37 as much as an interior work inside of us, 04:41 in our spirit, in our soul, in our mind. 04:46 In fact, He desires to even dwell in us. 04:50 The very beginning of creation, 04:53 story of the creation of Adam 04:57 in Genesis says that, 05:00 God formed or fashioned Adam out of the dust of the earth. 05:04 And the second aspect of Adam's creation 05:07 was that God blew His spirit 05:12 into the nostrils of the man 05:14 that He had formed from the earth. 05:18 With that, I believe that there are two parts of us 05:21 that are essential. 05:24 One, to be a full person is, of course, 05:27 to have a physical body, mind. 05:32 Second is, to have the spirit of God in dwelling us. 05:38 We must be filled, be birthed 05:42 from the spirit of God as well, have the indwelling of God. 05:49 So I love the fact in making this vessel, 05:52 I have to start in the very beginning 05:54 after it's been centered, 05:56 by working in the interior of the pot. 06:00 You can't see lot of this. 06:02 You know, in our world 06:03 we're so concerned with the exterior. 06:06 But I think, what's really important 06:08 is what goes on inside of us, and who's living there. 06:12 And when we surrender to Jesus, 06:14 He promises us the indwelling of His spirit 06:19 has an incredible promise. 06:26 So this pot has been stilled by the hand of God, centered, 06:32 the opening has been made, 06:35 which in the sense the spirit of God will dwell. 06:41 Now we're gonna go on to another stage. 06:44 And it's a stage called pulling. 06:46 It's the potter's term for it. 06:50 It's the way that pots vertically grow. 06:54 It's very exciting. 06:55 It defies gravity, and it's done by pressure, 07:01 pressure from the inside hand, pressure from the outside hand. 07:07 What I think about in that is that 07:09 we too grow under pressure. 07:12 What I mean by that is, let's picture the idea 07:15 that the hand that is on the inside. 07:20 This hand here, that is pressing 07:22 against the hand on the outside. 07:24 This hand is representing 07:26 the presence of God inside of us, 07:28 the spirit of God, who now lives within us. 07:31 The truths of God that are in our mind, 07:33 the teachings of Jesus. 07:36 This hand is representing the experiences 07:39 that we have in our daily lives in the world, 07:42 with other people, the situations, whatever. 07:48 And how are we going to respond 07:52 when we encounter someone who hurts us, 07:55 who speaks wrongly of us, 07:57 who lies to us, who perhaps steals from us? 08:02 And Jesus teaching on the sermon on the mount, 08:04 He teaches a lot about forgiveness. 08:07 Forgiveness is not an easy thing. 08:11 In fact, there are many things, 08:12 many principles in following Jesus 08:14 that are not easy. 08:16 And we can't do them alone. 08:17 We really need the presence of God within us. 08:22 Because if God was not inside, these pressures can destroy us. 08:28 We can go through abusive situations, 08:31 maybe divorce, or loss of a business, 08:34 or home, or whatever. 08:36 And that pressure from the outside can be so huge 08:40 that we or this pot can become destroyed. 08:45 And then there are some of us 08:46 who really wish the world would go away, 08:50 that if it could just be me and Jesus. 08:53 The reality is that we live in this world 08:58 following Jesus and His principles, 09:01 surrendering to Him as our king, 09:04 living in His kingdom. 09:10 We forgive our neighbor. 09:14 I'm not necessarily saying to you 09:16 that you need to surrender 09:17 to physical abuse or things like that. 09:20 I'm not saying that at all. 09:22 But there are many things which we're called to do, 09:25 we're called to trust that God so loves us 09:28 that He's gonna provide for us. 09:32 We have a peace from within about that 09:36 that we can afford be generous. 09:40 And yeah, that's a pressure thing. 09:42 There's so many realities of following Jesus 09:45 that causes us to grow into really very beautiful people. 09:54 Today in much of the Christian world, 09:57 that word perfect is viewed as damaged goods. 10:02 Instead of seeing that word as embodying 10:04 God's will and dream for our lives, 10:07 we know see that word as condemnatory and flawed. 10:12 We see that word perfect 10:14 as itself imperfect and defective. 10:18 Many even see that word perfect as irrelevant 10:22 to the human condition and experience. 10:25 They see it as impractical, 10:27 unrealistic and as an unrealizable goal. 10:33 Perfect, it is a word that was meant to inspire 10:37 and arouse our best sentiments and desires. 10:41 But today, we have come to see 10:43 that word perfect as a critical and a demanding word. 10:48 We see it as judgmental, even a pejorative word. 10:52 Many even now see that word perfect, 10:55 and they say it with a disparaging, 10:57 vilifying tone 'perfect'. 11:01 Who wants to be perfect? 11:04 We now mock at it. 11:06 We are sarcastic and derisive of it. 11:09 The word perfect has fallen from our vocabulary, 11:13 and no longer does it challenge our human pursuits, 11:17 no longer does that word perfect hold us 11:19 in our behavior accountable. 11:23 No longer is perfect held up by any one, 11:26 it seems as a standard for human conduct. 11:31 In popular culture, it seems like 11:32 we are celebrating not the perfect, 11:35 but rather celebrating what is imperfect, 11:40 celebrating imperfection, 11:42 and everything that is imperfect. 11:45 In our world today, it is the imperfect 11:49 that seems to be glorified. 11:52 Even in church, 11:54 what often passes as a testimony 11:58 is a glorification of imperfection. 12:03 When you tell how God has delivered you, 12:06 we don't need to know the name of the place and the address. 12:11 Only give the name of God the praise. 12:14 We don't need all the details 12:15 of what God has delivered you from. 12:19 For ages in churches, there have been 12:21 centuries of arguments 12:23 and debates over this word perfect. 12:27 Some denominations believe it is a word 12:30 we should no longer use or subscribe to. 12:33 Throughout the centuries, 12:35 there have been church councils and conferences 12:37 that have been held to deliberate 12:39 and dispute over this one word, 12:43 and it's relevance in our age and in our time. 12:47 They have been whole churches and denominations 12:49 who have split over whether the word perfect 12:53 should even be held up 12:54 before God's people as a goal to pursue, 12:58 and as an object to aim for and strive for. 13:03 Frankly, I never thought we would ever get to the point. 13:06 When the preacher would have to defend the word perfect, 13:10 and its derivative word is perfecting and perfection. 13:16 Many in our world, and in the church today 13:18 no longer see beauty 13:20 or holiness in the word perfect. 13:23 They find it intimidating and overwhelming. 13:27 Some find it sinister and threatening, 13:29 they see it as a gotcha word, 13:31 a word used mostly by religious bullies. 13:35 A word used by sanctified terrorists masquerading 13:39 as followers of God. 13:41 And yes, we have always had sanctified terrorists 13:45 masquerading as followers of God. 13:48 Sometimes this word perfect 13:49 has been used by religious people 13:52 to discourage us, not uplift us. 13:55 In the Book of Luke 18:10, Jesus gives us a picture 13:59 of a religious leader caught up in his own belief 14:02 and his own perfection. 14:04 The Bible says, "Two men", said Jesus, 14:07 "Went up to the temple to pray, 14:09 one a Pharisee and the other tax collector. 14:11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed, 14:13 "Oh God, I thank you, 14:15 I'm not like other people, I'm perfect. 14:18 I thank you that I'm not a robber or an evildoer. 14:21 I'm not an adulterer 14:23 or even like this tax collector. 14:25 I'm perfect." 14:27 "I want you to know, brothers and sisters, 14:30 it is people like that 14:33 who give this word perfect a bad name, 14:39 they've made this word perfect 14:40 one of the most misunderstood words. 14:43 But God calls us to be perfect. 14:49 Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect 14:53 as your father in heaven is perfect." 15:01 Joining us again, and my guest for this program, 15:04 Ruthie Jacobsen, Adly Campos, and Pastor Errol Stoddart. 15:09 Ruthie, let me start with you. 15:11 Do you think in some ways that word perfect 15:15 has become a dirty word today? 15:19 Well, I think it can be scary. 15:23 I think people think, 15:24 "I can't do this, I can't do this", 15:27 and they're absolutely right, we can't do it. 15:30 But you know, there is something 15:33 that I think should be an encouragement. 15:35 Remember Joshua was talking to the children of Israel... 15:38 And he laid out the rules for the Promised Land, 15:42 and they jumped in, and they said, 15:44 "Everything that God has said, we're gonna do, 15:47 we're gonna obey," and Joshua said, 15:49 "Wait, wait, wait, you can't do this, 15:52 you cannot do this, but God will help us." 15:56 And so I think, while we look at the fact 16:00 that we can't do it, there is hope 16:04 because we have someone who can. 16:06 Absolutely. 16:08 Pastor Stoddart, you know, when the Lord actually told us, 16:13 "Be Ye Therefore Perfect", 16:15 what does that mean to you that, 16:18 you heard what Ruthie said, 16:19 that we can't do it, why would the Lord ask us 16:22 to do something He knows 16:24 in our own strength we can't do? 16:27 Well, I think it's interesting that 16:29 when we look at Matthew Chapter 5 16:31 and see the context in which Jesus uses the term, 16:34 it really pin points emphasis, 16:36 because right before Jesus says, 16:38 "Be Ye Therefore Perfect, 16:40 as your Father which is in heaven is Perfect." 16:42 He deals with the issues of loving your enemy, 16:45 bless them that curse you, do good to them that hates you. 16:49 And He is really highlighting how people of the new kingdom 16:55 think differently from the old way, 16:58 the old way of thinking, an eye for an eye, 17:00 tooth for a tooth, if somebody curses you, 17:03 you curse him back, if they punch you in the face, 17:05 you punch them back even harder. 17:07 This whole idea of loving your enemies 17:10 is really antithetical to who we are as human beings. 17:14 We don't love our enemies. 17:17 It's hard to love our enemies naturally. 17:20 It goes against the brain. 17:23 It's hard to love our friends sometimes. 17:25 Yeah, oh, absolutely. 17:29 No doubt about that, it's hard enough 17:31 trying to love your friends. 17:32 It's hard enough trying to love the people 17:33 that you're trying to like. 17:35 Yeah, that's right, that's right. 17:39 So when we look at the text, God is, 17:42 Jesus is really emphasizing that to be to perfect 17:46 as our heavenly father 17:47 is to love everybody like God does, 17:51 and I think that is the starting point. 17:53 The starting point has to be loving people like 17:57 God loves people. 17:59 And when you start there, you see that this thing of, 18:03 "Being perfect as our Father which is in heaven is perfect," 18:06 it starts at the point of relationship. 18:09 It starts in a relational way. 18:12 It starts with me treating you the way God treats you 18:17 even when you are not worthy 18:19 based on "Human standards of being treated well." 18:22 God still treats us because the text says, 18:25 "He allows His rain to shine on the just and on the unjust, 18:29 He allows the sun to shine, He allows the rain to fall 18:33 on the good and the evil." 18:35 And so God wants us to treat everybody in the way 18:40 that He treats everybody. 18:42 Could I say one more thing here? 18:45 Okay. 18:47 You know, at that time Christ had some tearing down to do 18:52 because the people of Israel 18:54 had been looking at the Pharisees, 18:56 and they were saying, "Watch us, 18:58 we are perfect, we are keeping all the rules." 19:01 And Christ was saying, "No, no, no, you can't do that, 19:05 there is a higher standard," and that's for us for all time. 19:09 We can't look at one another, we can't look at ourselves 19:12 but we can look to Jesus. 19:13 Right, Adly, is there a place for that word perfect 19:18 in our Christian lives? 19:21 Certainly, Jesus commanded us to be perfect. 19:28 And whenever He gives a command, 19:30 He also gives us the tools that we will need to obey 19:35 to fulfill that command. That's right. 19:37 When he was about to be lifted up back to heaven, 19:40 He said, "I have to go, 19:42 but I will be sending the counselor," 19:46 and why was He sending the councilor? 19:49 So that He could be with us forever. 19:53 And Sister White said in a very interesting way. 19:57 She says in Steps to Christ, that Jesus left the Holy Spirit 20:04 so that we human beings imperfect 20:08 can have the strength that we need through prayers, 20:11 and Bible study, 20:14 and most of all the assistance f the Holy Spirit 20:17 to become like Jesus, to reflect His character, 20:22 to be able to overcome 20:25 all these inherited negative things 20:29 that we have in our characters 20:30 that are from reflecting Jesus character... 20:34 He says, all the things that we have inherited, 20:38 whether inherited, 20:39 whether acquired through the years, 20:42 that Holy Spirit has this strength, 20:44 the power to give to us so that we can overcome them, 20:50 and then be perfect and be like Jesus is 20:55 and was when He was here on Earth. 20:57 So the Holy Spirit is there, a powerful tool 21:01 that we very seldom use as we pray, 21:04 ask the Holy Spirit every day, every moment. 21:06 There's a lot of hope, isn't there? 21:08 Absolutely. Absolutely. 21:09 Pastor Stoddart, what do you think 21:11 is the relationship between 21:15 sanctification and perfection? 21:21 Well, let me jump onto something that 21:24 Ruthie talked about little earlier, 21:26 and then I'm gonna to you, 21:27 the relationship between sanctification and perfection. 21:29 I think a lot of times, one of the reasons 21:33 people are turned off by the word perfect 21:36 is because many of the people 21:38 we've heard advocating perfection or perfectionism, 21:43 they were the opposite of what they were advocating. 21:48 And it's frustrating when your hear people saying, 21:50 "Well, you want to be perfect, you want to be perfect, 21:53 and we should strive to be perfect." 21:55 And you know, when you look at them, 21:57 you go, "But you are nowhere near perfect." 22:00 "And you are pushing this perfection 22:02 but you are mean as a junk yard dog." 22:04 Yes, yes, that's right. And so you see this thing... 22:11 There is not congruence between 22:14 what they're saying, and how they're living. 22:17 And that has been a turn off to a lot of people 22:20 who look at it, and say, "Why even bother." 22:23 I remember going to school with a guy who, he said, 22:28 "Let me tell you something, I'm the humblest guy I know." 22:35 Yeah, you disgrace the humility with the statement, yeah. 22:44 It can't help, we can't help the fact that 22:48 when you make a decision to become more like Jesus, 22:52 you are in the pursuit of perfection because... 22:58 Absolutely. He is perfect. 23:00 And Sister Ruthie, do you think that 23:03 when you are striving to be like Jesus, 23:07 that you are striving 23:08 for a perfect paradigm, a perfect pattern? 23:14 Well, you know, we don't think of it that way, 23:16 but what a comfort to think that 23:20 when we surrender our lives into His hands 23:24 and give Him total control, 23:27 then He does what only He can do. 23:30 And that is... 23:32 There is so much hope in that because He knows we are weak, 23:36 but He's strong. 23:38 I love that song, you know, I am weak but Thou art strong, 23:42 Jesus keep me from all wrong. 23:44 Amen! And that's where the hope is. 23:46 That's where the enlightenment is. 23:48 Do you... I love the thought... 23:50 Go ahead... Go ahead. 23:52 Yeah, you were saying, "I love the thought," go ahead. 23:56 Well, I love the thought that we're given... 23:59 that we can be surrounded 24:01 with an atmosphere of light and peace. 24:04 Wow! That's huge. Yes. 24:08 And as we strive to be more like Jesus, Sister Campos, 24:14 what are the kinds of things you think 24:16 that we need to do to help people to realize 24:19 that you're striving for this wonderful idea 24:23 because rather than be afraid of it, 24:26 why not embrace this joyous experience 24:29 that as I am walking with the Lord, 24:32 as I'm living for the Lord, 24:34 as I'm teaching and singing, I'm becoming more like him. 24:38 And you had asked earlier about, 24:42 are there any hymns, any songs? 24:45 And those are the kinds of things 24:48 we probably need to do, 24:49 we need to sing more about it, we need to play more about it, 24:53 we need to pray for it. 24:55 Are there any songs that come to your mind 24:57 that will help us as we think about 25:00 becoming more like Christ? 25:02 Yes, that song, Be like Jesus is my thought 25:06 all throughout the day. 25:08 That's what is in my mind, 25:09 and when that is absorbed in my mind 25:13 all day long, no matter what I'm doing, 25:16 no matter who I'm relating or relating to, 25:20 if I have that in mind, that is going to help me 25:24 achieve it by God's grace. 25:27 Not that I will be perfect without fault, 25:30 but that I will be all the time constantly trying, 25:36 looking for, being that open book 25:39 that God wants us to be. 25:41 We need to be open letters because we are read by all men, 25:45 and one of the ways that we need to portrait 25:48 that is reflect in Jesus' character. 25:52 Reflect in the way He was when He was on earth. 25:55 So the more we think about it, the more we concentrate 26:00 on the work, "I want to be more like Jesus, 26:04 I want to be perfect because that's what He... 26:06 that's what it means to be like Jesus, to be perfect." 26:10 There is nothing wrong in that. 26:12 Everybody wants to be like Jesus. 26:14 Many songs talk about being like Jesus. 26:17 But we are afraid certainly of using the word perfect 26:21 because something has put that thing in our mind that, 26:27 that can never be done. 26:29 Look at David, he was called a man 26:32 after God's own heart, 26:34 and he committed such horrible scenes, adultery, 26:37 he killed a man, he did so many things, 26:41 and yet God called him a man after His own heart. 26:46 He was striving all through his years 26:48 to be more like Jesus even though he failed. 26:51 Yes. 26:53 He surrendered to God, he admitted it. 26:54 Wintley, I want to ask you a question. 26:56 Can I ask you a question? 26:57 Well, you know, we're out of time, 26:58 but we're gonna come back because this, 27:00 we're gonna be addressing this many ways, 27:02 from different angles and perspectives 27:04 because it is important for the church. 27:06 Thank you for being with us. 27:13 It was with great purpose and intentionality 27:16 that God commanded us, that we be perfect. 27:21 Matthew 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect 27:24 even as your father which is heaven is perfect." 27:27 This is not a suggestion, it's not a proposal, 27:30 it's not a hint, not even a recommendation, 27:33 it is a command. 27:35 In Matthew 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect 27:39 even as your father which in heaven is perfect." 27:43 Allow me to make it clear that when Jesus said, 27:46 "Be ye therefore prefect", Jesus was not talking about 27:49 material perfection or physical perfection, 27:52 He wasn't talking about ladies having 27:54 an hourglass figure, 27:56 and men having impressive abs, no. 27:58 When Jesus spoke those words, He was calling us 28:01 to the highest kind of perfection there is, 28:04 He was calling us to character perfection. 28:08 Hebrews 10:14, "For by one offering 28:12 He has perfected forever them that are sanctified." 28:16 God is satisfied with nothing short of perfect obedience, 28:20 and perfection is the only title 28:23 which will gain admittance into heaven. 28:26 Let no one say, "I cannot remedy 28:28 my defects of character", if you come to this decision, 28:32 you will fail of obtaining everlasting life. 28:36 The impossibility lies in your own will. 28:39 If you will not, then you cannot overcome. 28:43 The real difficulty arises from the corruption 28:47 of an unsanctified heart 28:49 and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God. 28:54 Yes, all are lost through Adam, 28:56 our only hope is transformation of character through repentance 29:02 and faith in Christ as our personal savior. 29:05 I'm Wintley Phipps, and until next time, 29:08 remember to be a Christian needs to be Christ like. |
Revised 2018-01-18