Perfecting Me

Character and the Word Perfect

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Whitley Phipps (Host), Adly Campos, Dr E. T. Stoddart, Ruthie Jacobson

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Series Code: PFM

Program Code: PFM000002A


00:26 Hi, I'm Wintley Phipps, and welcome to our program
00:30 Perfecting Me, Becoming More Like Jesus.
00:35 I'm so glad you've joined us.
00:37 My guests today on our program are Ruthie Jacobson,
00:40 head of Prayer Ministry of the North American Division
00:43 of Seventh-day Adventist, Pastor Errol Stoddard,
00:46 Pastor, Senior Pastor of the Church of the Oranges
00:49 of Seventh-day Adventist in Orange, New Jersey,
00:52 and Mrs. Adly Campos, speaker,
00:55 and president of the Family Well-Being International.
00:58 They will be joining our discussion
01:00 a little later in the program.
01:03 This program is dedicated to the belief
01:05 that there is nothing more important,
01:07 or more exciting you can do with your life
01:10 than to become every day more like Jesus.
01:14 We trust you will find joy, and being able to say,
01:18 "Everyday, Jesus is molding me, shaping me,
01:22 and everyday He is perfecting me."
01:27 Over the last 200 years,
01:30 there is a word that has progressively
01:32 and gradually fallen from our vocabulary,
01:35 and from our focus and priorities as humans,
01:38 and even as Christians.
01:41 It is a word that has almost been expunged
01:43 and purged from our spiritual consciousness.
01:47 Today, this word of which I speak
01:49 is as unpopular as a politician's promise.
01:54 It is now shun by many like the plague.
01:57 It is now viewed by many with scorn, derision,
02:01 and even disdain.
02:04 And nowhere have I seen the decline
02:06 of this word's presence
02:07 and influence more than in the church.
02:12 Today in the church, this word is seen by
02:14 many as unfashionable, and out of favor.
02:17 Frankly, it is a word I seldom hear used
02:20 in modern praise and worship to God.
02:23 Today, this word of which I speak
02:25 seems to scare the daylights out of Christians.
02:29 It is not a word from films of horror,
02:31 it is not a blood curling word,
02:33 not some beastly wild profanity,
02:35 neither is it some vulgarity that has gained acceptance
02:39 in our sacrilegious irreverent world.
02:42 To the contrary, this word of which I speak
02:45 is a most beautiful and compelling word.
02:48 It is a challenging and inspiring word.
02:51 It is a word that should stir us
02:53 and motivate us.
02:54 A word that should lift our sights,
02:56 and move us to consider the limitless possibilities
03:00 offered to us by our loving God.
03:03 This word is a visionary word, a shimmering, sparkling word,
03:07 a word that lifts our sights from earth to heaven.
03:10 This word of which I speak is the word, perfect.
03:15 Yes, perfect.
03:17 Today we will try to understand
03:19 how such a beautiful word has become unfashionable,
03:22 and fallen out of favor in the Christian world.
03:26 I've been blessed to get to know a dear brother
03:28 in the Lord, his name is Dave Blakeslee.
03:30 Dave is a potter who loves the Lord,
03:32 and God's process for molding us
03:34 and shaping us reminds me
03:36 so much of the work of David Blakeslee.
03:39 As he tries to fashion vessels for the Lord
03:42 that are as perfect as possible.
03:45 Let us go into his shop and see Dave at work.
03:53 What actually I'm going to do here
03:55 is to create a hole in the middle.
03:59 Call it opening up.
04:03 Right down to the very center, the core.
04:09 Throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament,
04:12 the word heart is used a lot.
04:16 Truly, not so much the emotional heart
04:19 that we think of romantically.
04:21 As it is the core of our being.
04:24 The very center of what we are, who we are as a person.
04:31 And the interesting thing about God is,
04:34 He doesn't do an outside work on us
04:37 as much as an interior work inside of us,
04:41 in our spirit, in our soul, in our mind.
04:46 In fact, He desires to even dwell in us.
04:50 The very beginning of creation,
04:53 story of the creation of Adam
04:57 in Genesis says that,
05:00 God formed or fashioned Adam out of the dust of the earth.
05:04 And the second aspect of Adam's creation
05:07 was that God blew His spirit
05:12 into the nostrils of the man
05:14 that He had formed from the earth.
05:18 With that, I believe that there are two parts of us
05:21 that are essential.
05:24 One, to be a full person is, of course,
05:27 to have a physical body, mind.
05:32 Second is, to have the spirit of God in dwelling us.
05:38 We must be filled, be birthed
05:42 from the spirit of God as well, have the indwelling of God.
05:49 So I love the fact in making this vessel,
05:52 I have to start in the very beginning
05:54 after it's been centered,
05:56 by working in the interior of the pot.
06:00 You can't see lot of this.
06:02 You know, in our world
06:03 we're so concerned with the exterior.
06:06 But I think, what's really important
06:08 is what goes on inside of us, and who's living there.
06:12 And when we surrender to Jesus,
06:14 He promises us the indwelling of His spirit
06:19 has an incredible promise.
06:26 So this pot has been stilled by the hand of God, centered,
06:32 the opening has been made,
06:35 which in the sense the spirit of God will dwell.
06:41 Now we're gonna go on to another stage.
06:44 And it's a stage called pulling.
06:46 It's the potter's term for it.
06:50 It's the way that pots vertically grow.
06:54 It's very exciting.
06:55 It defies gravity, and it's done by pressure,
07:01 pressure from the inside hand, pressure from the outside hand.
07:07 What I think about in that is that
07:09 we too grow under pressure.
07:12 What I mean by that is, let's picture the idea
07:15 that the hand that is on the inside.
07:20 This hand here, that is pressing
07:22 against the hand on the outside.
07:24 This hand is representing
07:26 the presence of God inside of us,
07:28 the spirit of God, who now lives within us.
07:31 The truths of God that are in our mind,
07:33 the teachings of Jesus.
07:36 This hand is representing the experiences
07:39 that we have in our daily lives in the world,
07:42 with other people, the situations, whatever.
07:48 And how are we going to respond
07:52 when we encounter someone who hurts us,
07:55 who speaks wrongly of us,
07:57 who lies to us, who perhaps steals from us?
08:02 And Jesus teaching on the sermon on the mount,
08:04 He teaches a lot about forgiveness.
08:07 Forgiveness is not an easy thing.
08:11 In fact, there are many things,
08:12 many principles in following Jesus
08:14 that are not easy.
08:16 And we can't do them alone.
08:17 We really need the presence of God within us.
08:22 Because if God was not inside, these pressures can destroy us.
08:28 We can go through abusive situations,
08:31 maybe divorce, or loss of a business,
08:34 or home, or whatever.
08:36 And that pressure from the outside can be so huge
08:40 that we or this pot can become destroyed.
08:45 And then there are some of us
08:46 who really wish the world would go away,
08:50 that if it could just be me and Jesus.
08:53 The reality is that we live in this world
08:58 following Jesus and His principles,
09:01 surrendering to Him as our king,
09:04 living in His kingdom.
09:10 We forgive our neighbor.
09:14 I'm not necessarily saying to you
09:16 that you need to surrender
09:17 to physical abuse or things like that.
09:20 I'm not saying that at all.
09:22 But there are many things which we're called to do,
09:25 we're called to trust that God so loves us
09:28 that He's gonna provide for us.
09:32 We have a peace from within about that
09:36 that we can afford be generous.
09:40 And yeah, that's a pressure thing.
09:42 There's so many realities of following Jesus
09:45 that causes us to grow into really very beautiful people.
09:54 Today in much of the Christian world,
09:57 that word perfect is viewed as damaged goods.
10:02 Instead of seeing that word as embodying
10:04 God's will and dream for our lives,
10:07 we know see that word as condemnatory and flawed.
10:12 We see that word perfect
10:14 as itself imperfect and defective.
10:18 Many even see that word perfect as irrelevant
10:22 to the human condition and experience.
10:25 They see it as impractical,
10:27 unrealistic and as an unrealizable goal.
10:33 Perfect, it is a word that was meant to inspire
10:37 and arouse our best sentiments and desires.
10:41 But today, we have come to see
10:43 that word perfect as a critical and a demanding word.
10:48 We see it as judgmental, even a pejorative word.
10:52 Many even now see that word perfect,
10:55 and they say it with a disparaging,
10:57 vilifying tone 'perfect'.
11:01 Who wants to be perfect?
11:04 We now mock at it.
11:06 We are sarcastic and derisive of it.
11:09 The word perfect has fallen from our vocabulary,
11:13 and no longer does it challenge our human pursuits,
11:17 no longer does that word perfect hold us
11:19 in our behavior accountable.
11:23 No longer is perfect held up by any one,
11:26 it seems as a standard for human conduct.
11:31 In popular culture, it seems like
11:32 we are celebrating not the perfect,
11:35 but rather celebrating what is imperfect,
11:40 celebrating imperfection,
11:42 and everything that is imperfect.
11:45 In our world today, it is the imperfect
11:49 that seems to be glorified.
11:52 Even in church,
11:54 what often passes as a testimony
11:58 is a glorification of imperfection.
12:03 When you tell how God has delivered you,
12:06 we don't need to know the name of the place and the address.
12:11 Only give the name of God the praise.
12:14 We don't need all the details
12:15 of what God has delivered you from.
12:19 For ages in churches, there have been
12:21 centuries of arguments
12:23 and debates over this word perfect.
12:27 Some denominations believe it is a word
12:30 we should no longer use or subscribe to.
12:33 Throughout the centuries,
12:35 there have been church councils and conferences
12:37 that have been held to deliberate
12:39 and dispute over this one word,
12:43 and it's relevance in our age and in our time.
12:47 They have been whole churches and denominations
12:49 who have split over whether the word perfect
12:53 should even be held up
12:54 before God's people as a goal to pursue,
12:58 and as an object to aim for and strive for.
13:03 Frankly, I never thought we would ever get to the point.
13:06 When the preacher would have to defend the word perfect,
13:10 and its derivative word is perfecting and perfection.
13:16 Many in our world, and in the church today
13:18 no longer see beauty
13:20 or holiness in the word perfect.
13:23 They find it intimidating and overwhelming.
13:27 Some find it sinister and threatening,
13:29 they see it as a gotcha word,
13:31 a word used mostly by religious bullies.
13:35 A word used by sanctified terrorists masquerading
13:39 as followers of God.
13:41 And yes, we have always had sanctified terrorists
13:45 masquerading as followers of God.
13:48 Sometimes this word perfect
13:49 has been used by religious people
13:52 to discourage us, not uplift us.
13:55 In the Book of Luke 18:10, Jesus gives us a picture
13:59 of a religious leader caught up in his own belief
14:02 and his own perfection.
14:04 The Bible says, "Two men", said Jesus,
14:07 "Went up to the temple to pray,
14:09 one a Pharisee and the other tax collector.
14:11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed,
14:13 "Oh God, I thank you,
14:15 I'm not like other people, I'm perfect.
14:18 I thank you that I'm not a robber or an evildoer.
14:21 I'm not an adulterer
14:23 or even like this tax collector.
14:25 I'm perfect."
14:27 "I want you to know, brothers and sisters,
14:30 it is people like that
14:33 who give this word perfect a bad name,
14:39 they've made this word perfect
14:40 one of the most misunderstood words.
14:43 But God calls us to be perfect.
14:49 Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect
14:53 as your father in heaven is perfect."
15:01 Joining us again, and my guest for this program,
15:04 Ruthie Jacobsen, Adly Campos, and Pastor Errol Stoddart.
15:09 Ruthie, let me start with you.
15:11 Do you think in some ways that word perfect
15:15 has become a dirty word today?
15:19 Well, I think it can be scary.
15:23 I think people think,
15:24 "I can't do this, I can't do this",
15:27 and they're absolutely right, we can't do it.
15:30 But you know, there is something
15:33 that I think should be an encouragement.
15:35 Remember Joshua was talking to the children of Israel...
15:38 And he laid out the rules for the Promised Land,
15:42 and they jumped in, and they said,
15:44 "Everything that God has said, we're gonna do,
15:47 we're gonna obey," and Joshua said,
15:49 "Wait, wait, wait, you can't do this,
15:52 you cannot do this, but God will help us."
15:56 And so I think, while we look at the fact
16:00 that we can't do it, there is hope
16:04 because we have someone who can.
16:06 Absolutely.
16:08 Pastor Stoddart, you know, when the Lord actually told us,
16:13 "Be Ye Therefore Perfect",
16:15 what does that mean to you that,
16:18 you heard what Ruthie said,
16:19 that we can't do it, why would the Lord ask us
16:22 to do something He knows
16:24 in our own strength we can't do?
16:27 Well, I think it's interesting that
16:29 when we look at Matthew Chapter 5
16:31 and see the context in which Jesus uses the term,
16:34 it really pin points emphasis,
16:36 because right before Jesus says,
16:38 "Be Ye Therefore Perfect,
16:40 as your Father which is in heaven is Perfect."
16:42 He deals with the issues of loving your enemy,
16:45 bless them that curse you, do good to them that hates you.
16:49 And He is really highlighting how people of the new kingdom
16:55 think differently from the old way,
16:58 the old way of thinking, an eye for an eye,
17:00 tooth for a tooth, if somebody curses you,
17:03 you curse him back, if they punch you in the face,
17:05 you punch them back even harder.
17:07 This whole idea of loving your enemies
17:10 is really antithetical to who we are as human beings.
17:14 We don't love our enemies.
17:17 It's hard to love our enemies naturally.
17:20 It goes against the brain.
17:23 It's hard to love our friends sometimes.
17:25 Yeah, oh, absolutely.
17:29 No doubt about that, it's hard enough
17:31 trying to love your friends.
17:32 It's hard enough trying to love the people
17:33 that you're trying to like.
17:35 Yeah, that's right, that's right.
17:39 So when we look at the text, God is,
17:42 Jesus is really emphasizing that to be to perfect
17:46 as our heavenly father
17:47 is to love everybody like God does,
17:51 and I think that is the starting point.
17:53 The starting point has to be loving people like
17:57 God loves people.
17:59 And when you start there, you see that this thing of,
18:03 "Being perfect as our Father which is in heaven is perfect,"
18:06 it starts at the point of relationship.
18:09 It starts in a relational way.
18:12 It starts with me treating you the way God treats you
18:17 even when you are not worthy
18:19 based on "Human standards of being treated well."
18:22 God still treats us because the text says,
18:25 "He allows His rain to shine on the just and on the unjust,
18:29 He allows the sun to shine, He allows the rain to fall
18:33 on the good and the evil."
18:35 And so God wants us to treat everybody in the way
18:40 that He treats everybody.
18:42 Could I say one more thing here?
18:45 Okay.
18:47 You know, at that time Christ had some tearing down to do
18:52 because the people of Israel
18:54 had been looking at the Pharisees,
18:56 and they were saying, "Watch us,
18:58 we are perfect, we are keeping all the rules."
19:01 And Christ was saying, "No, no, no, you can't do that,
19:05 there is a higher standard," and that's for us for all time.
19:09 We can't look at one another, we can't look at ourselves
19:12 but we can look to Jesus.
19:13 Right, Adly, is there a place for that word perfect
19:18 in our Christian lives?
19:21 Certainly, Jesus commanded us to be perfect.
19:28 And whenever He gives a command,
19:30 He also gives us the tools that we will need to obey
19:35 to fulfill that command. That's right.
19:37 When he was about to be lifted up back to heaven,
19:40 He said, "I have to go,
19:42 but I will be sending the counselor,"
19:46 and why was He sending the councilor?
19:49 So that He could be with us forever.
19:53 And Sister White said in a very interesting way.
19:57 She says in Steps to Christ, that Jesus left the Holy Spirit
20:04 so that we human beings imperfect
20:08 can have the strength that we need through prayers,
20:11 and Bible study,
20:14 and most of all the assistance f the Holy Spirit
20:17 to become like Jesus, to reflect His character,
20:22 to be able to overcome
20:25 all these inherited negative things
20:29 that we have in our characters
20:30 that are from reflecting Jesus character...
20:34 He says, all the things that we have inherited,
20:38 whether inherited,
20:39 whether acquired through the years,
20:42 that Holy Spirit has this strength,
20:44 the power to give to us so that we can overcome them,
20:50 and then be perfect and be like Jesus is
20:55 and was when He was here on Earth.
20:57 So the Holy Spirit is there, a powerful tool
21:01 that we very seldom use as we pray,
21:04 ask the Holy Spirit every day, every moment.
21:06 There's a lot of hope, isn't there?
21:08 Absolutely. Absolutely.
21:09 Pastor Stoddart, what do you think
21:11 is the relationship between
21:15 sanctification and perfection?
21:21 Well, let me jump onto something that
21:24 Ruthie talked about little earlier,
21:26 and then I'm gonna to you,
21:27 the relationship between sanctification and perfection.
21:29 I think a lot of times, one of the reasons
21:33 people are turned off by the word perfect
21:36 is because many of the people
21:38 we've heard advocating perfection or perfectionism,
21:43 they were the opposite of what they were advocating.
21:48 And it's frustrating when your hear people saying,
21:50 "Well, you want to be perfect, you want to be perfect,
21:53 and we should strive to be perfect."
21:55 And you know, when you look at them,
21:57 you go, "But you are nowhere near perfect."
22:00 "And you are pushing this perfection
22:02 but you are mean as a junk yard dog."
22:04 Yes, yes, that's right. And so you see this thing...
22:11 There is not congruence between
22:14 what they're saying, and how they're living.
22:17 And that has been a turn off to a lot of people
22:20 who look at it, and say, "Why even bother."
22:23 I remember going to school with a guy who, he said,
22:28 "Let me tell you something, I'm the humblest guy I know."
22:35 Yeah, you disgrace the humility with the statement, yeah.
22:44 It can't help, we can't help the fact that
22:48 when you make a decision to become more like Jesus,
22:52 you are in the pursuit of perfection because...
22:58 Absolutely. He is perfect.
23:00 And Sister Ruthie, do you think that
23:03 when you are striving to be like Jesus,
23:07 that you are striving
23:08 for a perfect paradigm, a perfect pattern?
23:14 Well, you know, we don't think of it that way,
23:16 but what a comfort to think that
23:20 when we surrender our lives into His hands
23:24 and give Him total control,
23:27 then He does what only He can do.
23:30 And that is...
23:32 There is so much hope in that because He knows we are weak,
23:36 but He's strong.
23:38 I love that song, you know, I am weak but Thou art strong,
23:42 Jesus keep me from all wrong.
23:44 Amen! And that's where the hope is.
23:46 That's where the enlightenment is.
23:48 Do you... I love the thought...
23:50 Go ahead... Go ahead.
23:52 Yeah, you were saying, "I love the thought," go ahead.
23:56 Well, I love the thought that we're given...
23:59 that we can be surrounded
24:01 with an atmosphere of light and peace.
24:04 Wow! That's huge. Yes.
24:08 And as we strive to be more like Jesus, Sister Campos,
24:14 what are the kinds of things you think
24:16 that we need to do to help people to realize
24:19 that you're striving for this wonderful idea
24:23 because rather than be afraid of it,
24:26 why not embrace this joyous experience
24:29 that as I am walking with the Lord,
24:32 as I'm living for the Lord,
24:34 as I'm teaching and singing, I'm becoming more like him.
24:38 And you had asked earlier about,
24:42 are there any hymns, any songs?
24:45 And those are the kinds of things
24:48 we probably need to do,
24:49 we need to sing more about it, we need to play more about it,
24:53 we need to pray for it.
24:55 Are there any songs that come to your mind
24:57 that will help us as we think about
25:00 becoming more like Christ?
25:02 Yes, that song, Be like Jesus is my thought
25:06 all throughout the day.
25:08 That's what is in my mind,
25:09 and when that is absorbed in my mind
25:13 all day long, no matter what I'm doing,
25:16 no matter who I'm relating or relating to,
25:20 if I have that in mind, that is going to help me
25:24 achieve it by God's grace.
25:27 Not that I will be perfect without fault,
25:30 but that I will be all the time constantly trying,
25:36 looking for, being that open book
25:39 that God wants us to be.
25:41 We need to be open letters because we are read by all men,
25:45 and one of the ways that we need to portrait
25:48 that is reflect in Jesus' character.
25:52 Reflect in the way He was when He was on earth.
25:55 So the more we think about it, the more we concentrate
26:00 on the work, "I want to be more like Jesus,
26:04 I want to be perfect because that's what He...
26:06 that's what it means to be like Jesus, to be perfect."
26:10 There is nothing wrong in that.
26:12 Everybody wants to be like Jesus.
26:14 Many songs talk about being like Jesus.
26:17 But we are afraid certainly of using the word perfect
26:21 because something has put that thing in our mind that,
26:27 that can never be done.
26:29 Look at David, he was called a man
26:32 after God's own heart,
26:34 and he committed such horrible scenes, adultery,
26:37 he killed a man, he did so many things,
26:41 and yet God called him a man after His own heart.
26:46 He was striving all through his years
26:48 to be more like Jesus even though he failed.
26:51 Yes.
26:53 He surrendered to God, he admitted it.
26:54 Wintley, I want to ask you a question.
26:56 Can I ask you a question?
26:57 Well, you know, we're out of time,
26:58 but we're gonna come back because this,
27:00 we're gonna be addressing this many ways,
27:02 from different angles and perspectives
27:04 because it is important for the church.
27:06 Thank you for being with us.
27:13 It was with great purpose and intentionality
27:16 that God commanded us, that we be perfect.
27:21 Matthew 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect
27:24 even as your father which is heaven is perfect."
27:27 This is not a suggestion, it's not a proposal,
27:30 it's not a hint, not even a recommendation,
27:33 it is a command.
27:35 In Matthew 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect
27:39 even as your father which in heaven is perfect."
27:43 Allow me to make it clear that when Jesus said,
27:46 "Be ye therefore prefect", Jesus was not talking about
27:49 material perfection or physical perfection,
27:52 He wasn't talking about ladies having
27:54 an hourglass figure,
27:56 and men having impressive abs, no.
27:58 When Jesus spoke those words, He was calling us
28:01 to the highest kind of perfection there is,
28:04 He was calling us to character perfection.
28:08 Hebrews 10:14, "For by one offering
28:12 He has perfected forever them that are sanctified."
28:16 God is satisfied with nothing short of perfect obedience,
28:20 and perfection is the only title
28:23 which will gain admittance into heaven.
28:26 Let no one say, "I cannot remedy
28:28 my defects of character", if you come to this decision,
28:32 you will fail of obtaining everlasting life.
28:36 The impossibility lies in your own will.
28:39 If you will not, then you cannot overcome.
28:43 The real difficulty arises from the corruption
28:47 of an unsanctified heart
28:49 and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God.
28:54 Yes, all are lost through Adam,
28:56 our only hope is transformation of character through repentance
29:02 and faith in Christ as our personal savior.
29:05 I'm Wintley Phipps, and until next time,
29:08 remember to be a Christian needs to be Christ like.


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Revised 2018-01-18