Participants: Wintley Phipps (Host), Adly Campos, Dr E T. Stoddart, Ruthie Jacobson
Series Code: PFM
Program Code: PFM000003A
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00:27 Hi, I'm Wintley Phipps,
00:29 and welcome to our program 00:30 Perfecting Me, Becoming More Like Jesus. 00:34 I'm so glad you joined us. 00:36 My guests today on our program are Ruthie Jacobsen, 00:39 Head of Prayer Ministry of the North American division 00:41 of Seventh-day Adventist, Pastor Errol Stoddart, 00:45 Senior Pastor of The Church 00:46 of the Oranges of Seventh-day Adventist 00:48 in Orange, New Jersey, 00:49 and Mrs. Adly Campos, Speaker and President 00:52 of Family Well-Being International. 00:55 You'll hear from them a little later. 00:58 When we surrender to God, 01:01 our characters are like clay in the potter's hands. 01:05 And like clay in His hands, everyday He moulds, 01:09 and shapes us, and fashions us according to His will. 01:14 And just like a potter takes clay and kneads it, 01:16 and works it, he tears it apart, 01:19 and then presses it together, 01:21 sometimes God will wet us, and then dry us, 01:26 and then sometimes leave us there for a little while 01:29 without even touching us. 01:31 And just when He knows we're ready, 01:33 He forms us into a shape and makes of us 01:38 what the scripture calls a vessel of honor. 01:42 When God made us, 01:43 He made us in His image to resemble, reflect, 01:46 and reveal the perfection of His character. 01:51 And what the master potter is shaping in us is our character. 01:57 In Matthew 5:84, it says, 01:59 "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father 02:02 which in heaven is perfect." 02:05 Now God would never tell us 02:07 to try to be perfect without making provision 02:10 for our perfection. 02:12 And He makes it clear 02:14 that our perfection can only be found in our union 02:17 and relationship with Christ. 02:20 In John 17:23, it says, 02:22 "I in them, and Thou in me 02:24 that they may be made perfect in one 02:30 and that the world may know that Thou has sent me 02:33 and has loved them as Thou has loved me." 02:36 Just as Jesus, the Son of God, 02:38 in human form was perfect in His life, 02:41 so He requires that His followers 02:43 shall be perfect in their lives. 02:46 When you look carefully at the command of Jesus 02:48 and the context in which He spoke these words, 02:51 you will see that He was calling us 02:53 to a life of perfection. 02:55 Now stay with us. 03:01 When Jesus spoke, 03:03 He gave us examples of the kind of perfection 03:06 He was talking about. 03:08 Let's look at it. 03:10 Matthew 5:38, "You have heard that it hath been said, 03:13 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' 03:17 But I say unto you that you resist not evil 03:21 but whosoever shall smite thee on their right cheek, 03:24 turn to him the other also." 03:26 Many read that and say, 03:28 "I don't need that kind of perfection in my life." 03:32 Or he said, "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, 03:35 handover your coat as well. 03:38 If anyone forces you to go one mile, 03:40 go with them two miles." 03:42 Notice, not if someone requests you to go, 03:45 but if someone forces you to go one mile, 03:49 go with them two. 03:50 And then in Matthew 5:42, 03:52 "Give to the one who ask you 03:55 and do not turn away from the one 03:57 who wants to borrow from you. 03:59 You've heard that it has been said, 04:01 thou shall love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy, 04:04 but I say unto you," said Jesus, 04:06 "love your enemies, bless them that curse you, 04:11 do good to them that hates you and pray for them 04:14 which despitefully use you and persecute you." 04:17 Pray for those who persecute you? 04:21 "Yes," said Jesus, Matthew 5:45, 04:23 "that ye may be the children of your Father 04:27 which is in heaven." 04:29 So it is in this context that Jesus holds before us 04:33 this lofty goal to which He wants us 04:35 to aspire and achieve. 04:38 He says, "Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." 04:43 Now why would Jesus tell us to be, what because of sin, 04:48 He knows we could never be. 04:51 I think it is because Jesus' view of perfection 04:56 is very different than our view of perfection. 05:00 Most people when they speak of perfection, 05:02 they think of what I might call total perfection, 05:05 they think of flawless, 05:07 faultless, never have, never will make a mistake, 05:11 because we've all made mistakes. 05:14 We are no longer candidates for that kind of perfection. 05:19 None of us can stake any claims to that kind of perfection 05:24 because we've all made mistakes. 05:28 Today, many would rather settle for 05:31 and even flump their flaws 05:33 and defects rather than speak of striving 05:38 and trying to be perfect. 05:40 Some even believe that 05:42 we should not even try to be perfect 05:44 because it is futile. 05:46 "Why should we even try to be something we know 05:49 we can never be? 05:51 We might as well purge that word 05:53 and remove it from our lexicon of spiritual words 05:56 and religious ideas." 05:59 This word perfect represents a state or condition, 06:03 they think, reserved only for God the father, 06:06 God the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ the Son. 06:10 Many say, "So don't trouble me or worry me or torment me 06:16 with that command and requirement 06:19 of the word perfect." 06:21 They say, as a matter of fact, 06:23 when the role is called up for perfect people, 06:26 I know that anyone who dares stand in that line 06:29 is a fraud and a flaming hypocrite. 06:32 Anyone who dare say 06:33 they are perfect and error free, 06:35 they are either deluded or they are con artist. 06:39 Jesus is the only one 06:40 who has ever lived a perfect life on this earth, 06:43 and that is true. 06:45 A longtime ago, we were once perfect, 06:48 but look at the world today, we are not that anymore. 06:51 Some have said, 06:53 "This view that the world before television was perfect." 06:57 Oh, no. 06:58 The way they talk, you would think that 06:59 we had societal perfection back in the '40s and the '50s. 07:04 And in some ways things may have been better 07:06 but they were definitely not perfect. 07:09 Let me disabuse you of any such notion. 07:13 The only time we as human beings new perfection 07:17 was for a short time 07:18 before the fall of Adam and Eve in Eden. 07:21 Only before the fall of Adam and Eve were men prefect. 07:27 But God is calling us to a life of perfection, 07:33 and we can be perfect if we follow 07:37 in the footsteps of Jesus Christ. 07:41 Now I want you to know about a friend of mine 07:43 by the name of Dave Blexley. 07:46 Dave has been with us for the last few shows. 07:49 He has a ministry of delivering 07:53 and showing us how God can mould us, 07:58 and make us, and shape us, 08:02 and how God can take our character just like clay. 08:07 Yes, He is our potter. 08:08 God can take our character just like clay 08:12 and work with us and help shape us 08:16 until we are fit vessels for His use. 08:21 Come with me now. 08:23 Let's go to the potter's house. 08:29 Well, at this point, this pot could go, you know... 08:35 I think we're there. 08:36 I think this is pretty good. 08:38 I'm sort of a waste now, 08:42 and then God comes along and says, 08:43 "No, why you gotten into this." 08:45 And I was like, "I don't know, God. 08:48 This is nice, I like it this way." 08:51 And He says, "No, I have much bigger plans for you. 08:54 The calling that I have for you, 08:56 the vocation that I have for you is much larger." 08:59 That's the exciting thing about allowing ourselves 09:04 to be formed in the hands 09:07 of a creating God, 09:12 a God who has great desires for our lives. 09:18 And so I'm gonna began to stretch this pot out, 09:23 give it more form. 09:26 And as I'm doing this, this stretching, 09:30 many of us go through stretching experiences. 09:33 Whenever there is a major transition in our life, 09:36 now that's a stretching experience. 09:39 We don't really know what the outcome will be. 09:42 And if this pot could talk, it might be saying to me, 09:45 "You know, potter, 09:47 the walls of this pot are getting rather thin. 09:50 And I know that it could collapse. 09:53 If you keep stretching me like this, 09:56 I don't know if I can make it. 09:59 And are you sure you know what you're doing?" 10:03 I don't know about you but there had been times 10:05 when I've questioned that with God. 10:07 "God, do you know this about me?" 10:09 I don't know if you've ever wrestled with God 10:11 but I never win. 10:15 Even if I, in a sense, 10:17 win by not going His way, I lose. 10:21 But if I trust in Him, He really knows what's best. 10:26 And I have faith that He can do things 10:28 way beyond my self image. 10:35 I discover all new things 10:38 just like this vessel is gonna discover them. 10:42 It could be really robust, large, 10:48 and someday filled with flowers. 10:51 Someday, sitting in a prominent place in a house 10:56 where everyone can say, "Oh, how beautiful that pot is." 11:01 And there will be times in our lives 11:03 when it just seems like God is all over us. 11:08 He's just bringing about so many wonderful changes, 11:10 and it's very exciting. 11:13 Some of us would call that revival, 11:16 new life in a sense. 11:22 And I think of other people who watch us 11:25 when we're going through a growing time in our lives, 11:31 a high mountain experience in a sense with God 11:35 which doesn't happen every single day of our lives, 11:39 at least not for me. 11:41 But it does happen. 11:42 I think of others, for example, this pitcher over here, 11:46 I'm gonna call her... 11:49 I think I'll call her Suzy today. 11:51 And Suzy is a wonderful pitcher. 11:56 I formed her earlier today, and she's sitting over here, 12:00 and she can't help but looking at Joseph here. 12:03 Joseph's enormous vase is being formed. 12:06 And she's really quite excited 12:08 about the fact of what's happening to Jo. 12:11 I mean, Jo is just a hunk of mud a short time ago. 12:14 And now, look at him. 12:16 He's developing shoulders, he's robust, and tall, 12:20 and really becoming quite magnificent. 12:22 And there's part of her is going, 12:24 "Oh, I remember what it was like 12:26 when the potter hands were all over me 12:28 and shaping me and forming me and it was so exciting. 12:32 And now I've come off to the side. 12:37 And I hate to say it, but I always wonder, 12:41 has the potter forgotten me? 12:44 Because I'm feeling a bit dry at the top." 12:48 And some of us will go through times like that 12:51 where we're watching other people just developing, 12:54 becoming more and more like Jesus in their lives, 12:57 becoming beautiful that way, 12:59 becoming matured, it's exciting to watch them. 13:03 And yet with ourselves, it seems quite still. 13:05 Quite quiet, like not much is happening. 13:09 And has God loved us? 13:11 Did we do something wrong? No, not at all. 13:15 You see the reality is that, 13:16 in order for this pitcher to be complete, 13:18 it needs a handle coming off of the back. 13:21 And if I try to put a handle on it earlier, even right now, 13:25 it's still quite soft. 13:27 And I would totally deform the shape. 13:30 So I am going to wait 13:32 until this pitcher is mature enough 13:34 that stiffen off up here 13:37 that I can attach the handle without deforming it. 13:40 But my eye is very attentive to this pitcher. 13:43 I've not forgotten it. 13:45 Nor has God forgotten you. 13:47 There may be something that He's waiting on, 13:49 maybe something in someone else's live, 13:51 or some other situation that He's waiting on, 13:53 or it may even be you that He's watching, 13:56 and waiting until something has become true in your life, 14:01 and then He's ready. 14:08 Joining us again are my guests Ruthie, Adly, and Errol. 14:13 Ruthie, let me start with you. 14:17 The Bible says that God made us 14:19 in His image and in His likeness. 14:23 Does that mean He made us perfect? 14:27 I think He did at creation, 14:29 because if we were made in His image, 14:32 and He said it was very good, 14:35 He must have been very happy with the creation of mankind. 14:39 Why will He make anything that wasn't perfect? 14:44 That's right. 14:45 I mean, you know, why would a perfect God 14:47 make anything that wasn't perfect? 14:49 So yes, He made us perfect. 14:52 And why do you think? And He's happy with it. 14:55 You said, He was happy with it. Absolutely. 14:57 He said it was very good. 15:00 Sister Campos, why do you think He made us perfect? 15:04 Why do you think He made us to reflect His image? 15:11 What was He doing? What was He trying to do? 15:12 Because we were made unto His own image, 15:14 so the fact that we were made unto His own image 15:19 made us perfect as He was. 15:22 Right. Well, why do you think He did that? 15:24 What was He trying to say something 15:27 to the rest of the universe, you think? 15:30 Why do you think He said, 15:32 "I'm gonna make man in My image"? 15:36 Why would He do that? 15:37 Is that for His own glory, for His own love, 15:39 because of His love? 15:41 Pastor Stoddart, what do you think? 15:43 Why do you think He made us perfect? 15:46 I do believe it because God is love, 15:49 and His love was demonstrated in His creation of humanity, 15:55 and His creation of humanity was free will. 15:59 I think that was the part of the perfection 16:01 that God created us with, is the power to choose 16:06 so that we weren't forced to do something. 16:09 He gave man the power to choose good or evil. 16:13 And I think that's a big part 16:14 of what the whole discussion of perfection is all about. 16:17 This business of free will, 16:18 man being able to make his own choices. 16:19 Right. 16:21 And, Sister Campos, He made us free, 16:24 gave us free will. 16:26 And He also, it appears, 16:30 made sure that our perfection was provisional, 16:35 meaning that if we would have to pass some tests 16:38 to before that that perfection was permanent. 16:42 Tell us what you know about that? 16:44 Yes. 16:46 As long as they remained obedient to Him, 16:51 they were going to have total absolute perfection, 16:55 exactly like God. 16:56 The moment they cross the line, disobeyed God, 17:01 then it was limited to us, limited to us. 17:06 And, Ruthie, that provisional perfection was lost. 17:12 Tell me what you know about how it was lost? 17:17 Well, it was lost because God trusted the human race, 17:23 and He didn't want robots. 17:26 He said, "I love you, I trust you. 17:29 I'm going to allow you to cooperate or not." 17:33 And because of the forces of the evil, 17:37 here in the Garden of Eden, they were deceived 17:40 and they chose to walk away from God. 17:44 And of course, we have suffered as a result of that ever since. 17:48 But God could have prevented that, 17:51 He could have prevented our sinning, 17:55 but I'm so glad He didn't. 17:58 He gave us the power of choice because of His love. 18:01 Yes. 18:02 You know, it all began... 18:03 Go ahead, Pastor. 18:05 Yeah, I was going to say, the association, 18:08 the word association of obedience and perfection, 18:12 I think that is a great word, association, 18:15 because perfection does not happen 18:18 outside of obedience. 18:20 And I'm sure we're gonna come back to that time 18:23 and back in, 18:24 it's another word that a lot of people 18:26 feel very uncomfortable, obedience. 18:28 Just like perfection, yeah. 18:29 And yet obedience is so crucial 18:32 to the whole business of serving God, 18:34 to the whole business of growing into perfection. 18:38 You can't be perfect unless you are lined up to obey 18:42 what instruction God has given to us. 18:45 I have always marveled 18:46 and studied to try to understand 18:50 how that perfection was lost 18:52 and it seems like it was lost beginning 18:56 in heaven with Lucifer 18:59 and it began with a distortion 19:03 and misrepresentation 19:04 of the true loving character of God. 19:08 When you think about it, He went to the angels. 19:11 A third of the angels said, you know, God, 19:14 He's not all that you think He is, 19:16 He is really not as nice as He says He is, 19:20 He is a tyrant, He is a dictator. 19:22 And the third of the angels bought that, 19:25 and as a result His perfection was lost. 19:30 Isn't that incredible? 19:32 And then he went to the Eve in the Garden of Eden 19:35 and he said, "You know, 19:36 you don't know God like I know Him. 19:40 He has an integrity problem. 19:42 He doesn't always tell the truth," you know. 19:45 And with that distortion and misrepresentation 19:48 of the character of God, perfection was lost. 19:52 So react to that. 19:54 Tell me what you think of 19:57 when you think about that perfection being lost 20:00 because of the enemy sowing discord 20:04 and sowing distress in the hearts of man 20:09 and human beings. 20:13 Ruthie, what do you think about that? 20:15 Well, I think... 20:16 And I'm glad that you backed up 20:18 and put this in the context of heaven. 20:21 I think that if Satan, 20:24 if Lucifer had kept his eyes 20:26 in the right place at that time, 20:29 this whole thing could have been avoided 20:31 if he could have kept his eyes on the Father, 20:35 and worshipped Him, and sought to bring Him glory, 20:40 but he chose to look at himself and to be prideful. 20:44 And I think we have the same responsibility, 20:48 the same opportunity today. 20:50 We can look up or we can look around us, 20:54 and this is why we're told, 20:55 "Don't look at your circumstances. 20:57 Don't look at the things that are going on around you, 21:00 but keep your eyes focused." 21:03 What a privilege. Absolutely. 21:04 Pastor Stoddart, what do you think about that tactic 21:07 that the devil has so effectively used 21:11 to bring destruction, and to sow discord, 21:15 and to cause us to lose our perfection? 21:18 What is so powerful about that tactic of distorting 21:22 and misrepresenting the character of God 21:25 that is so effective? 21:27 Well, we know that all distortions began right there 21:32 with the devil misrepresenting 21:33 and distorting the character of God, 21:34 and who God is, and who God was, 21:38 but his tactic worked as you can see. 21:42 The Bible makes it very clear 21:44 that one third of the angels were... 21:46 And you imagine, the one third of the angels, 21:50 they were perfect themselves. 21:52 And imagine, one third of the perfect angels in heaven 21:56 who had never known sin, 21:57 who had never known unrighteousness, 22:00 who had never known deceit, 22:03 Lucifer was so effective 22:05 that he was able to trick them to following his sophistries, 22:09 and let them astray and away from God. 22:11 Yeah. 22:12 Sister Campos, I think it is his most effective weapon 22:16 throughout history, confusing people 22:21 about the true loving character of God. 22:25 And one of the reasons that his tactics, 22:27 Sister Campos, I want you to speak through this, 22:29 why this tactic is so effective 22:32 is because he's using a tactic 22:35 that God's character won't let him use, 22:39 if you understand what I mean. 22:41 God's character, His integrity won't let him distort, 22:47 you know, other people's characters. 22:49 So tell me what you think about that, Sister Campos? 22:52 We are by nature self-centered, very self-centered. 22:59 And he knows that when he draws 23:02 the attention away from God's character 23:06 by minimizing, 23:07 deceiving us in regards to his character. 23:10 He knows that we will immediately 23:13 start looking at ourselves, 23:15 that's exactly what humanism has done. 23:19 Never mind the God in heaven, you are a god, 23:23 do whatever you like to do. 23:26 If it feels good, do it, do it, do it. 23:30 So he has succeeded because of that. 23:34 Ruthie, how do you think that our perfection is reclaimed, 23:38 and how do you think the Word of God tells us 23:42 that we can be perfect again? 23:44 What has heaven done to make sure that that happens? 23:50 Amen. 23:51 What an invitation! What an invitation! 23:55 You know, the Lord doesn't throw anybody away. 23:59 Elder CD Brooks used to say, 24:01 "When people feel like they are at the very bottom, 24:05 they don't see hope anywhere." 24:08 Christ is there, saying, "I'll take you. 24:10 I'll take you," because of His shed blood. 24:14 There's power in the blood. 24:17 And by beholding, we become changed. 24:20 We don't have hope in ourselves, 24:23 but we have a God for whom nothing is impossible. 24:27 It's just mind blowing. 24:29 Yes, it is. 24:30 Pastor Stoddart, before we go, we just have a few moments. 24:33 I want you to speak to one important thing. 24:36 And that is, when God looks at all of us, 24:39 as Ruthie was saying, when God looks at all of us, 24:43 right, He sees not just the way we are, 24:47 but He sees us in perfection. 24:53 That's His vision, that's His dream for us. 24:58 Tell me about that before we go. 25:01 Well, I love the fact that, first of all, 25:04 He sees me through the lenses of Jesus. 25:08 When God sees us, 25:10 once we've accepted Jesus Christ as our savior, 25:12 when God looks at us, 25:14 He is looking at us through the lenses of His Son, 25:17 Jesus Christ, our advocate. 25:19 And I thank God everyday for that. 25:21 I praise God that in spite of my self, 25:22 in spite of my best self, 25:27 and I want to make that clear, my best self, 25:30 with my striving and sometimes my not measuring up 25:36 that Jesus Christ is my intermediary. 25:40 God sees me through the eyes of His Son, Jesus Christ. 25:44 And I praise God for that, because through that, 25:46 I am justified. 25:48 I love Elder EE Cleveland used to say, 25:50 "We are justified before we are qualified." 25:53 That's right, that's right. And it is so beautiful. 25:56 It is so beautiful that Jesus sees us as perfect 26:02 while we're growing, 26:04 because He covers us with His grace. 26:06 Thank you for being with us today. 26:12 When Adam was created by God in His thoughts and actions, 26:16 Adam and Eve were perfect in character, in temperament, 26:22 in attitude, and nature. 26:24 They were perfect. 26:25 It's hard to imaging it now, 26:27 but when we came from our creator's hand, 26:29 we were perfect. 26:31 Not only in stature and physique, 26:33 we were perfect in mind, 26:35 in character, and in personality. 26:38 When God created us, He created us to resemble, 26:41 reflect, and reveal His perfection. 26:45 We were made in the perfect image 26:48 of our perfect God in conscience, 26:50 moral makeup, man was perfect. 26:54 But his perfection was provisional and limited. 26:58 Perfection was dependent upon 27:00 obedience and faithfulness to God. 27:03 Adam's perfection was conditional on his loyalty 27:07 and devotion to God. 27:09 His perfection was qualified and temporary. 27:13 His perfection was tied to a time of test 27:16 and examination. 27:18 It was conditioned upon his faithfulness to God's commands. 27:23 As long as he remained obedient, 27:25 man would retain his perfection. 27:28 But Adam sinned, and for the last 6,000 years, 27:31 true perfection has not been seen by mankind. 27:35 Thank God, Jesus Christ came. 27:37 And by His sacrifice, 27:39 He restored to us perfection as a gift of grace. 27:45 All are lost through Adam. 27:48 Our only hope is a transformation of character 27:52 through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ 27:56 as our personal savior. 27:59 I'm Wintley Phipps. 28:00 And until next time, remember, 28:03 to be a Christian 28:06 means to be Christ like. 28:11 God bless you. |
Revised 2018-01-18