Spring Camp Meeting

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

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Series Code: SCM

Program Code: SCM180012A


00:41 Welcome to the 3ABN Spring Camp Meeting:
00:44 The Three Angels' Messages.
00:49 Again we bid you good morning.
00:52 You know you almost want to say good morning and happy Sabbath,
00:55 but it is not quite Sabbath yet.
00:58 This is the day prior to the Sabbath -
01:04 the Preparation Day -
01:06 and we are preparing our hearts to meet the Lord
01:09 in a very special way on tomorrow.
01:11 But again, Shelley Quinn did such a very fine job -
01:15 Amen! and we praise the Lord for that
01:18 powerful and impressive message
01:22 that was filled with the Spirit of God.
01:24 In the second hour we have a very good friend
01:27 of this ministry, and that is Pastor Steve Wohlberg
01:31 who is speaker/director of White Horse Media
01:35 and has been doing such a very very fine job.
01:38 When last we saw Steve - and this is no secret -
01:41 he was going through a particularly ferocious attack
01:44 of the enemy. He was losing sleep;
01:47 losing weight; going through panic attacks,
01:50 anxiety. A number of things were happening
01:52 in his life that originally could not be diagnosed.
01:57 But you know, we serve a good God. Amen!
01:59 We serve a powerful God; we serve a healing God.
02:01 And when I saw him a few moments ago I said:
02:04 "Praise the Lord, you've put on a little weight. "
02:07 And he gladly admitted that he had.
02:10 For most of us that is not a good thing.
02:11 For him it was.
02:14 And he's gotten a little fairer... just a little fatter.
02:18 And we praise the Lord for it.
02:19 He is the husband of one wife: Kristen,
02:22 and he has two wonderful children that he dotes on:
02:25 Seth and Abigail. And we watched them sort of grow up
02:28 here at 3ABN. So together they make a formidable tool
02:32 in the hand of God for the salvation of the souls
02:35 of men and women.
02:37 Steve is going to pick up pretty much where Shelley left off
02:41 and follow in the train of thought.
02:42 His subject is: The Smoke of Their Torment.
02:47 So you see he follows in the same train
02:50 and in the same scheme. Already my sister has
02:53 has called me from Buffalo, NY, and she said:
02:55 "I want a copy of everything! "
02:58 Amen! So I am remanded to get a tape, or rather a CD,
03:01 of everything so that she can have them.
03:03 And that may be a good thing for you, too.
03:05 Because a lot of information is coming and it's coming fast,
03:08 it's coming furious. And you cannot get it all
03:11 on the first pass. You need to listen to it again and again.
03:14 Sort of sit down and sort of wade through it
03:17 very slowly because a lot of very good
03:19 very pertinent information is coming
03:21 vis-à-vis the three angels' messages.
03:24 So we want to thank you for being here.
03:26 We want to welcome our in-house audience which has grown
03:30 since last evening and we suspect will grow
03:34 during the course of the day. And of course we want to welcome
03:36 our audience by way of television or radio
03:41 or Internet. My sister is a computer person
03:44 and watches everything on her computer.
03:46 So I know she's watching on the computer.
03:48 And she says: "I'm not leaving the house!
03:50 I may not even get dressed. I just may just...
03:53 just stay in my bathrobe all day and watch,
03:56 watch, watch. And just leave to go to the kitchen,
03:59 get some food, and then come back to the computer.
04:01 And there are many who do that.
04:04 A friend of mine, they call it a stinky day.
04:06 She and her husband... She said: "We get up, we brush our teeth,
04:09 and that's it. Then we're in front of the television set
04:11 all day long. Well, we don't suggest that
04:14 necessarily
04:16 but we do want you to be part of this experience.
04:18 And if you're in the area and can get here,
04:21 please do get here.
04:22 Our special music is coming from
04:25 Celestine Barry-Dickens and her daughter Farrah.
04:31 This is a mother and daughter team
04:33 that are doing such a very very fine job for the Lord.
04:36 They are going to sing
04:38 and then the next voice that you will hear
04:41 will be that of our friend Pastor Steve Wohlberg.
04:46 He of White Horse Media. Shall we pray?
04:48 Father God, we take now this moment to call upon You.
04:52 We recognize Your presence; we understand Your power.
04:56 We know the goodness of Your Word.
04:59 Please, dear Father, be the invited guest
05:02 but in a special way be the teacher.
05:06 Speak to Steve and then be pleased
05:10 to speak through him to us
05:13 who need to hear a word from the Lord.
05:17 We praise You and thank you, dear Father,
05:19 for your goodness, Your grace, and Your promise to hear
05:23 the prayer of faith. In Jesus' name, Amen.
05:54 I lift my eyes when I am troubled.
06:02 I lift my hands; I lift my heart.
06:10 And there I stand knowing nothing can defeat me
06:16 just as long as I know
06:20 where You are.
06:23 In You alone
06:27 is where I find my comfort.
06:32 And You alone...
06:35 You're my only hope.
06:40 In You alone
06:42 my soul has found a resting place...
06:48 in You alone...
06:51 in You alone.
06:57 So I won't fear though darkness hides me.
07:05 No, I won't let my courage sway.
07:13 For You are near
07:16 and at the brightness of Your glory
07:20 the shadows of the night
07:23 melt away!
07:27 In You alone
07:30 is promise I can cling to.
07:35 In You alone
07:38 You're my security.
07:42 In You alone
07:45 my soul has found a dwelling place...
07:52 only in You alone.
08:00 What could separate me
08:03 from Your love?
08:07 Neither life nor death
08:10 nor anything at all...
08:14 anything at all.
08:19 In You alone
08:21 is where I find my comfort.
08:26 In You alone
08:29 You're my only hope.
08:34 In You alone
08:37 my heart has found a resting place.
08:43 Only in You
08:46 alone...
08:51 Only in You
08:54 alone...
08:59 Only in You
09:04 alone!
09:14 Amen!
09:18 Thank you.
09:20 All right. Well, praise the Lord!
09:24 Good morning everyone. Good morning!
09:26 God is good. All the time!
09:29 Ah, thank you Lord Jesus that I'm here.
09:31 What a blessing.
09:32 Just yesterday I drove to Spokane, Washington,
09:37 and parked at the airport. And parked on the third floor
09:41 of the big parking garage which I park at many times.
09:44 And I'll confess that sometimes since I travel a lot
09:49 I sometimes forget where I park.
09:53 So as I was walking out of my car and I noticed
09:56 third floor I thought: "OK, now how am I going to remember this?
09:59 Third floor. " And then I thought: "Oh, that's easy!
10:03 I'm going to 3ABN
10:05 and I'm talking about the three angels' messages
10:08 so this is very easy. "
10:10 Praise the Lord! Amen! Oh, God is good.
10:14 C.A. Murray mentioned that I've had some trials in my life
10:19 but the Lord has brought me through.
10:20 Amen! Praise His name... God is so good.
10:23 So I'm thrilled to be here and thrilled to build on
10:26 that last presentation. Shelley, I see you out there.
10:29 That was a masterpiece - Amen - of information.
10:33 I was listening on my phone on the way here
10:36 and they were looking for me. "Where is Steve? "
10:39 And I was in the back there listening to Shelley.
10:41 So Dee came back and was in a panic.
10:44 "Where is he? " "Oh... you're here. "
10:46 And I just praise the Lord... that was wonderful.
10:51 All right. If you have your Bibles I invite you to open up
10:53 to Revelation chapter 14.
10:55 We are building on the three angels' messages.
11:03 I have another confession to make: I left my regular glasses,
11:06 my preaching glasses, in our studio
11:08 in North Idaho, so I've got my Dollar Store glasses.
11:13 My reading glasses... but they'll have to do.
11:17 My topic - as you've probably seen -
11:21 is one little phrase in the third angel's message
11:27 which is in verse 11
11:29 talking about the smoke... "the smoke of their torment. "
11:35 That is my topic. Wow!
11:38 So that's something...
11:42 Somebody else had the everlasting gospel
11:45 and I've got the torment text.
11:51 But, you know, we need to talk about this.
11:53 So I'm going to build on top of what Shelley has just shared.
11:57 So let's pray another prayer and pray for God's blessing.
12:02 Heavenly Father, thank you so much that I can be here
12:06 at 3ABN. That we're all here
12:10 and we have a chance to be part of a movement...
12:13 a movement of God. Sharing and teaching and
12:16 preaching the three angels' messages around the world.
12:18 So we pray that during this time
12:21 that again Your Holy Spirit will be here and bless with power.
12:26 Please help me as I dive into Your Word.
12:30 In the name of Jesus Christ we pray, Amen. Amen!
12:34 Amen. OK... the smoke of their torment.
12:39 That's what verse 11 says: "The smoke of their torment
12:45 ascends up forever and ever
12:48 and they have no rest day or night who worship the beast
12:51 and his image and whoever receives the mark of his name. "
12:56 Now the first thing I want to say is that this is
12:58 a very serious verse.
13:01 It's very real and it is going to happen
13:05 to those who get the mark of the beast.
13:07 And so we need to make sure that we are on Jesus' side
13:11 and that we don't get that mark.
13:14 That's for sure.
13:15 Now next point is that this verse
13:19 about smoke ascending up forever and ever
13:22 is often used - as Shelley so eloquently spoke of
13:29 just a little bit ago - is often used
13:31 to support the idea that people will burn
13:36 at the end of time. And many people believe that
13:40 they're burning now and that they will continue to burn.
13:44 Those who are lost will burn and burn and burn
13:46 and burn and burn and burn and burn
13:48 and never stop burning
13:50 and their smoke will be rising up for all eternity.
13:54 Let me just tell you a little story.
13:57 Many of you know this: that I did not grow up a Christian.
13:59 I grew up in a Jewish home in southern California.
14:02 My family: we never read the Bible, we never prayed.
14:05 I was a lost teenager
14:08 involved in drugs and all kinds of crazy things.
14:10 When I was about 19 I began to run into Christians
14:14 who began to witness to me in strange places
14:16 and plant seeds.
14:18 And I think I was 20 years old. I was in Los Angeles
14:21 and I had a job down there. And I had actually just started
14:25 reading the Bible because of the different Christians
14:28 that had been witnessing to me.
14:30 So I found a Bible; I started reading one day
14:32 in a break that I had from my job.
14:35 And this man walked up to me -
14:37 a black man, a young man -
14:39 and he said: "What are you reading? "
14:42 And I said: "I'm reading the Bible.
14:44 Have you ever read this book? It's very interesting. "
14:46 And he said: "Yes I have. "
14:49 He said: "My name is Michael. "
14:50 And he introduced himself, told me he was studying for
14:53 the ministry and wanted to know if I would like to come
14:56 to church with him sometime.
14:58 So I had actually never been to church...
15:01 to a Christian church before.
15:03 So I gave him my phone number. Sometime later he called me up
15:06 and we connected. And I drove from Studio City
15:10 all the way down to downtown Los Angeles
15:13 on Slauson Avenue. Still remember it.
15:15 And one Sunday morning walked into an all-black Baptist
15:18 church. I was the only white person there.
15:21 And it was very noticeable that I was there.
15:26 And the pastor... I still remember him.
15:29 His name was Pastor Harper.
15:32 Got acquainted with me and after church
15:35 he invited me to his house.
15:37 So I went over to his house.
15:38 And we talked for a while and he was interested in me...
15:42 good, nice man.
15:44 And I still remember: he sat me down at a table
15:46 and he took his finger and he drew a circle
15:50 on the table - just an imaginary circle - and he said:
15:52 "This is like the universe. " And he said: "One of these days
15:56 at the very end of time the people that are lost
15:59 God is going to take them all and He's going to put them
16:02 outside this circle in a place called outer darkness.
16:05 And there they're going to burn forever and ever and ever
16:11 in a place called hell. " Still remember that.
16:14 And I remember getting into my car that day
16:16 and driving back through Los Angeles toward the valley
16:21 and it was surreal.
16:24 I remember just looking... I was on the freeway
16:26 and I saw all these cars and all these people
16:28 all around me and I thought to myself:
16:30 "They're all going to hell. "
16:33 And I had just learned this idea:
16:35 they're going to be lost forever and ever!
16:37 And that night I was home at my dad's house
16:41 and I remember... And my dad still remembers this...
16:44 he's 88 years old, still alive...
16:46 I climbed up to the top of the stairs where his bedroom was
16:49 and it was late at night.
16:52 And I remember just collapsing
16:56 outside of his door crying.
17:00 And he woke up and came out of his bedroom
17:03 and he said: "Steve, why are you crying? "
17:06 And I told him and I just said: "Dad,
17:08 because I've learned that if you don't believe in Jesus
17:11 you're going to burn in hell forever. "
17:13 And he just looked at me and didn't know what to say.
17:19 And I didn't know what to say.
17:21 And then just a few days later he and his wife
17:24 decided to send me to a psychologist.
17:30 So they sent me to a psycholo- gist down on Ventura Blvd.
17:34 I still remember. I drove down; went into this man's office.
17:37 Sat down and he said: "What's the problem? "
17:40 And I told him what I just told you
17:42 and he looked at me and he said:
17:45 "Oh, " he said, "I'm a Baptist. My whole family is Baptist.
17:48 We all believe that... that's the truth. "
17:54 So as you can imagine, that didn't comfort me at all.
18:00 I was very distraught about this subject
18:04 as a young 20-year-old.
18:06 Well I looked in the phone book; began to look for a church.
18:10 I began to visit churches. I went to a Methodist church;
18:13 I went to Calvary Chapel group.
18:17 Went to the synagogue 'cause I was grace Jewish.
18:20 Nobody was there... the rabbi wasn't there so I left.
18:24 And one day I turned on the television set
18:28 and I saw a man looking at me with a friendly expression.
18:33 "Hello friend, welcome to It Is Written television. "
18:36 That was Pastor George Vandeman.
18:39 And his topic was the seventh-day Sabbath.
18:43 And he gave me a little Bible study on the Sabbath.
18:46 And I was so interested in what he had to say.
18:49 At the end of his talk he held up a little book
18:51 called A Day To Remember. He held it up and he said...
18:54 looked right at me. "Friend, " he said, "call me up
18:57 and I'll send you a free copy of this book. "
18:59 So the 800 number was on the screen.
19:01 I felt this compulsion: "Go to the phone; call this man. "
19:05 So I did.
19:07 The book came in the mail. I read it in one sitting.
19:11 And at the end of the book it had a little sentence
19:13 that said: "Come visit a SDA church sometime
19:16 and say hello. "
19:17 And I thought to myself: Seventh-day Adventist?
19:19 You know, I also had a Jehovah's Witness friend.
19:21 I'd been checking Jehovah's Witnesses out.
19:23 I checked out the Baptists, the Methodists, the synagogue.
19:26 And I thought: "Well maybe I'll check out the SDA's.
19:29 What are Seventh-day Adventists? "
19:31 And then the thought came to me, some hazy memory,
19:33 that about 3 months earlier I had been in a health food store
19:36 with a buddy of mine. It was funny. You know, we were...
19:40 we were pot smoking, disco dancing, wild kids
19:43 and yet we got into health food.
19:47 We ate sprouts because sprouts are natural
19:51 like marijuana.
19:54 So... And my buddy, as I was buying the tofu burgers
19:58 and we were walking out that day,
20:00 my friend said to me... He struck up a conversation
20:04 with the guy that worked at the market.
20:05 And as we walked out my friend said to me,
20:07 he said: "You know that guy I was talking to at the market? "
20:09 He said: "That guy is a Seventh-day Adventist. "
20:12 He had told him that.
20:14 And somewhere it lodged up there, and after I read
20:17 George Vandeman's book the thought came:
20:19 "Oh, there's that man at the health food store
20:21 that's a SDA. " So I remembered that.
20:24 So I got in my car, drove out to Northridge in the valley.
20:27 Walked into the store. Looked around and sure enough
20:30 there the guy was. I recognized him. Long blonde hair.
20:33 Naturalist guy. I walked in and I grabbed...
20:38 opened up my hand and I said:
20:41 "Hi... my name's Steve Wohlberg. "
20:43 I said: "Would you mind if I went to church with you
20:45 some Saturday sometime? "
20:48 And he, you know, grabbed my hand and shook my hand
20:50 and said: "Sure! "
20:52 He said: "My name's Richard. "
20:55 And we began to talk and in the course of that conversation -
20:58 that's why I'm telling you all of this -
21:00 in the course of that conversation I asked him
21:03 I said: "Richard, what do SDA's believe about hell? "
21:07 Because I was still bothered by what Pastor Harper had told me
21:11 and what the psychologist had told me.
21:16 I was bothered by that!
21:18 And so Richard
21:22 providentially took his finger and drew a circle
21:27 just like the pastor did.
21:29 He drew a circle in the air... an imaginary circle.
21:33 And he said: "Imagine this is the universe. "
21:36 And he said: "The universe used to be a clean happy place
21:39 that God, the angels... you know, everybody was...
21:43 everything was peaceful and happy and full of love. "
21:47 And then he said: "One day a being - a holy being -
21:52 an angel named Lucifer went bad.
21:54 He became an evil angel and he brought sin
21:58 into God's universe.
22:00 It was like a cancer cell that Lucifer brought
22:05 into the universe. " And he said: "When it's all over,
22:08 when sin has run its course and this whole great controversy
22:12 is over, " he said, "what God is going to do
22:14 is He's going to erase that cancer cell
22:18 and then the universe is once again going to be
22:22 clean and happy and full of love. "
22:27 And when Richard said that something clicked
22:32 inside of my head.
22:34 And something just said to me:
22:36 "That makes a lot of sense! "
22:40 Amen! And so I went to church
22:43 with Richard and eventually was baptized
22:47 at the Canoga Park SDA church
22:49 and I became a Seventh-day Adventist.
22:51 And I have been a SDA for almost 40 years.
22:55 Amen! Through ups and downs and ins and outs
22:59 praise God I'm still here!
23:01 And I don't plan on going anywhere.
23:05 I'm going to stick with Jesus - Amen - all the way to the end
23:08 no matter what happens.
23:11 Well, anyway...
23:15 now I'm a Seventh-day Adventist and it is no secret
23:19 to those of you that have been listening... listened to Shelley
23:23 if you've been exposed to SDA teaching,
23:26 it is no secret that we believe as a church
23:30 that some day God is going to get rid of sin.
23:34 He's going to erase it, and we as a people
23:37 do not believe that hell
23:42 will burn forever and ever and ever and ever and ever.
23:46 We don't believe that... we don't buy that.
23:48 Now to be fair
23:50 I want to say - which we know - that there's a whole lot
23:55 of sincere, Bible-believing Christians out there that
23:58 disagree with us.
24:01 They read verses like Revelation 14 verse 11
24:06 that talks about smoke going up forever and ever
24:10 and ever and ever and they say to us:
24:13 "That's what the Bible says. "
24:16 That's what the Bible says.
24:19 And they feel very strongly about this:
24:22 that they want to stick with scripture
24:24 and they want to not compromise with liberalism
24:28 and with false doctrine so they still hold onto this.
24:32 And the battle is on right now over this issue.
24:37 The controversy is very, very intense.
24:39 In fact, not too long ago I met a lady...
24:42 I was down in Hollywood just a couple months ago
24:44 and I met a young lady. She referred to her name as
24:48 Esther. She was a street preacher.
24:50 And we had quite a conversation about this subject.
24:53 We began to e-mail each other and I've actually written
24:56 a little book, a little pocket book, called The Hot Topic
24:58 Of Hell" that goes into this.
25:01 And I sent her a copy of my book.
25:03 And she wrote me back and she said: "Steve,
25:06 you need to get rid of all those books.
25:09 Destroy them; burn them.
25:13 You are leading people astray by your teaching. "
25:19 And she was very strong about that.
25:22 So the question is in light of this text
25:26 that we see in Revelation 14
25:29 where it says right there in the third angel's message
25:33 in verse 11 that the smoke
25:38 of their torment will ascend up forever and ever
25:44 the question is, you know: "What do we do with this text? "
25:48 Are we right or are we wrong in our view
25:52 about hell?
25:55 Well... let's explore this.
25:58 To be honest with you this is not the only verse
26:01 in the Bible. There are other verses
26:03 that seem to teach eternal torment.
26:06 And we need to be honest about that.
26:09 But on the other side, there are other verses
26:13 and the truth is that there are many many many many
26:18 many many many more verses
26:21 that teach the opposite.
26:25 If you were to line them up... you know, all the verses
26:27 that hell apparently goes on forever
26:31 and all the other verses that don't teach that
26:34 the list is very long
26:39 against that idea.
26:41 VERY long. And the list on the other side
26:44 is very short. Now let me just show you
26:46 a couple of quick texts here.
26:48 If you have your Bibles, turn to Psalm 68 verse 2.
26:55 This verse also talks about smoke.
26:59 Another one of those smoke texts.
27:02 I used to smoke marijuana
27:06 but the Lord changed my life. Thank you, Jesus.
27:10 I don't do that anymore.
27:13 Psalm 68:2 says:
27:17 "As smoke is driven away so drive them away;
27:22 as wax melts before the fire so let the wicked
27:27 perish at the presence of God. "
27:30 Now there's a smoke text.
27:32 But that verse talks about the wicked completely perishing
27:38 at the presence of God.
27:40 Psalm 37:10 says:
27:46 "Yet a little while and the wicked shall not be.
27:50 Yea, You will diligently consider his place
27:53 and it shall not be. "
27:55 It's gone. Verse 20: "The wicked shall
27:58 perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the
28:01 fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke
28:04 shall they consume away. "
28:06 So there's another smoke text
28:09 saying that they're going to be gone.
28:13 Verse 38 says: "But the trans- gressors shall be destroyed.
28:18 The end of the wicked shall be cut off. "
28:21 And in fact, at the end of Ezekiel... or not the end...
28:24 but in Ezekiel chapter 28
28:27 this is a classic passage about Lucifer, who
28:31 was perfect in all of his ways until he sinned.
28:35 Ezekiel chapter 28 talks about his pride in verse 15.
28:41 "Sin being found in him... " Verse 14:
28:43 "He was the anointed cherub who covers. "
28:45 And then in verse 18 it says: "You have defiled your
28:49 sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities,
28:51 by the iniquity of your traffic.
28:53 Therefore I will bring forth a fire from the midst of you.
28:56 It will devour you, and I will bring you to ashes
28:59 upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold you.
29:02 All they that know you among the people shall be
29:04 astonished at you. You shall be a terror
29:07 and never shall you be any more. "
29:10 So here's a verse about the devil.
29:12 And it says the devil is going to become ashes
29:15 in the fire and he's not going to exist any more.
29:20 That sounds a lot like Richard's circle, doesn't it?
29:24 Where God erases the devil and sin and evil
29:28 and it's all gone.
29:30 That's what the Bible says in Ezekiel.
29:33 So what do we do? Back to Revelation 14:11.
29:40 What do we do about this torment text?
29:43 Their being tormented day and night forever and ever?
29:45 The book of Revelation actually has verses on both sides
29:49 as well. If you look at chapter 20,
29:54 Revelation 20, we have at the end of the 1,000 years
30:01 the lost are resurrected. Verse 5 talks about the rest
30:06 of the dead living not until the 1,000 years are over.
30:10 Verse 7 talks about the devil being loosed out of his prison
30:14 and going out to deceive people.
30:17 Verse 8 says they're all gathered around
30:22 the New Jerusalem... 8 and 9...
30:24 "The number of whom is as the sand of the sea. "
30:26 All these billions of lost people.
30:30 And then at the end of verse 9 it says: "Fire came down
30:33 from God out of heaven... " And did what to them?
30:36 It devoured them.
30:38 So Revelation 20 verse 9 is a devoured text.
30:43 Now then verse 10 say: "The devil that deceived them
30:46 was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone
30:48 where the beast and the false prophet are
30:50 and they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever. "
30:53 There's another one of the torment like the smoke text
30:56 where that goes on forever.
30:59 So we have verse 9 describes fire coming down
31:02 and they're devoured.
31:04 Verse 10 we have torment going on day and night forever
31:08 and ever. So the question is "Which one is it? "
31:11 Both verses are in the Bible.
31:15 Are they going to be devoured?
31:16 Or are sinners and the devil and his angels
31:19 going to be alive somewhere through all eternity?
31:23 You know, these are issues that really people have to
31:26 wrestle with. It's an issue that's right there in the Bible.
31:30 Well let me ask you: between verse 9 and verse 10,
31:33 between the lost being devoured and gone
31:37 and verse 10 torment forever and ever,
31:41 which of those two ideas do you like better?
31:47 Do you like the idea that God's going to erase sin?
31:51 Get rid of it and it's going to be gone?
31:53 Or do you like the idea of lost people burning
31:56 for all eternity? No! Yeah, and I...
31:59 And I would hope that everybody that's watching this,
32:02 anybody that's a Baptist or in another church
32:06 than SDA who's wrestling with these issues
32:09 and who's listening to this talk,
32:11 I would hope that human nature, that in your heart
32:15 if you had a choice between the two options
32:19 that you would rather have sin disappear
32:22 than have lost people tormented throughout all eternity.
32:26 I would hope that we would all want that to be the case.
32:29 But that said, we should not base
32:34 our doctrines on what we want.
32:38 Isn't that right? Amen!
32:40 It's not based on preference.
32:43 It's not based on, you know, "that sounds good"
32:46 versus "I don't like that. "
32:48 No! We don't base our doctrines based on desire
32:52 and what we like better. We base our doctrines on the Bible.
32:56 What does the Bible say?
32:58 What does the Word of God actually say?
33:01 Now if the evidence from the whole Bible
33:06 is that the lost go on forever and ever and ever
33:10 brothers and sisters, we should, if that was the evidence,
33:14 we should accept that whether we like it or not.
33:18 And on the other hand
33:21 if the evidence from the whole Bible doesn't support that,
33:26 then those who believe that it goes on forever
33:29 when they really take a close look at the whole Bible
33:32 they should be willing to give that idea up.
33:36 You know, it goes both ways.
33:38 We need to find out what does the Bible really say?
33:42 Now let's just dig a little deeper here.
33:44 If you look at verse 9 when it says: "They went up on the
33:48 breadth of the earth and they encompassed the camp
33:51 of the saints about and the Beloved City.
33:53 And fire came down from God out of heaven
33:56 and devoured them. "
33:57 Let me ask you: do you see anything symbolic...
34:00 any symbolic language in verse 9?
34:04 I don't. It's just a very simple narrative
34:07 of people surrounding the New Jerusalem
34:12 and then them being devoured in fire.
34:14 There's nothing symbolic in verse 9.
34:16 What about verse 10?
34:18 "The devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire
34:21 and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are.
34:24 And they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever. "
34:27 See any symbolism in the verse that talks about torment
34:31 forever? There IS symbolism.
34:35 The obvious symbolism is the reference to the beast.
34:40 The Bible says the beast has seven heads and ten horns
34:42 which is obviously symbolic.
34:45 So... a very important point
34:49 is that when the Bible talks about, at least in this verse...
34:51 We have the devoured text: nothing is symbolic;
34:54 we have the tormented forever text: symbolism.
34:58 Go back to Revelation 14:11, our main text,
35:02 about the smoke going up forever and ever.
35:05 It says: "They have no rest day or night
35:07 they... those who worship the beast. "
35:10 So is there any symbolism in that text?
35:15 Yes there is... same thing
35:17 about the beast who has seven heads and ten horns.
35:21 So that's twice in Revelation
35:24 the verses that seem to suggest eternal torment
35:27 have symbolism in them.
35:29 Now a third text is chapter 19.
35:34 Revelation 19:2-3
35:40 talks about the destruction of the harlot.
35:45 Verse 2 says: "True and righteous are His judgments. "
35:49 God's judgments are true, they're righteous.
35:52 "He has judged the great whore who did corrupt the earth
35:55 with her fornication and He has avenged the blood
35:58 of His servants at her hand.
36:00 And again they said Hallelujah! and her smoke rose up
36:05 forever and ever. "
36:07 There's another smoke text
36:09 about the smoke going up forever.
36:11 But do you see any symbolism there in verses 2 and 3?
36:15 Yes! It's the symbolism of a whore
36:19 who is described in Revelation 17
36:22 who rides a seven-headed ten-horned beast.
36:25 And it says that it's her smoke
36:29 that goes up forever and ever.
36:31 Now that doesn't literally mean that there's going to be
36:34 a literal woman with the name BABYLON on her forehead
36:37 holding a golden cup
36:39 riding a seven-headed ten-horned beast
36:41 who is going to be in a certain location
36:44 literally burning whose literal smoke is going up forever.
36:48 It doesn't mean that.
36:50 We're dealing with symbolism.
36:53 So my point is that the three references in Revelation -
36:57 and I discovered this in my Bible study -
37:00 the three references that seem to suggest
37:03 smoke going up forever, torment forever, etc.
37:06 those three references in the last book of the Bible
37:10 every single one of those verses
37:13 is connected to clear and obvious symbolism.
37:20 And that is important for us to keep in mind.
37:25 Now, back to Revelation 14:11
37:30 about the smoke of their torment ascending up forever and ever.
37:37 Here's a very important point.
37:39 And we don't want to rationalize away the Word of God.
37:42 When we talk about hell and death and the Sabbath,
37:45 and all these different issues, the three angels, the beast,
37:48 SDAs must not rationalize away the Word of God.
37:54 We must be faithful to scripture.
37:57 And that applies to Christians in other churches as well.
38:00 God's call upon all of us is to be faithful to scripture.
38:04 We need to study the Bible carefully...
38:06 not just one text here one text there
38:09 but look at the whole Bible.
38:10 Look at the evidence of the whole Bible.
38:12 Look at the character of God as Shelley so powerfully
38:16 described a little while ago, look at the whole character
38:19 of God: God's love, His justice, His mercy.
38:22 Wrath, judgment, everything ultimately needs to be seen
38:27 through the lens of the cross. Amen!
38:30 That Jesus revealed the heart of God, the character of God,
38:34 and He gave His life for us.
38:36 Now, back to our controversy here about this text.
38:43 When you read the book of Revelation carefully...
38:45 really study it, not... when we're not like
38:50 water skiers but we're like deep sea divers,
38:54 you know, going down deep
38:56 and really studying the Word of God
38:58 you discover that in the book of Revelation
39:00 it's really a masterpiece. Revelation is an incredible
39:03 masterpiece of prophecy and literature and power
39:07 and truth and a whole bunch of things
39:10 centered in the Lamb
39:13 that just about everything in Revelation
39:16 has a root that takes you back to the Old Testament somewhere.
39:22 When Revelation talks about the Lamb
39:24 that takes us back to all the lambs sacrificed in the Bible
39:29 pointing to Jesus.
39:30 When Revelation talks about the beast
39:33 it takes you back to Daniel 7 that describes four beasts
39:37 and a lot of links.
39:39 When Revelation 22 talks about the Tree of Life
39:42 at the very end the Tree of Life is restored
39:47 in the new heavens and the new earth
39:49 that takes you back to Genesis
39:52 chapters 1 and 2 where the Tree of Life
39:55 was in the Garden of Eden in the beginning.
39:58 So almost everything in Reve- lation takes you back somewhere.
40:02 And the verse in Revelation 14:11
40:05 "And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever"
40:08 that text has a root.
40:12 It takes you back to another verse which is in Isaiah ch. 34.
40:18 So if you have your Bible follow with me
40:22 to Isaiah 34 and let's see what we can learn
40:27 about that text from the root text.
40:34 34 verse 6.
40:40 Isaiah chapter 34 verse 6 says: "The sword of the Lord
40:45 is filled with blood.
40:47 It is made fat with fatness
40:52 and with the blood of lambs and goats,
40:54 with the fat of the kidneys of rams.
40:56 For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
41:00 and a great slaughter in the land of Idumaea. "
41:05 Now I want to build a point here
41:08 that this is taking us back to a certain territory
41:11 called the Land of Idumaea. And if I remembered this right
41:15 it was a territory south of Jerusalem.
41:18 It's an area... or it was a real area.
41:24 And then going on verse 7 says:
41:26 "The unicorn shall come down with them
41:29 and the bullocks with the bulls
41:33 and their land shall be soaked with blood
41:36 and their dust made fat with fatness.
41:39 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance
41:41 and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.
41:45 And the streams thereof... " which is the streams
41:49 in the land of Idumaea...
41:51 "the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch
41:55 and the dust thereof into brimstone. "
41:58 So here we have fire and brimstone language.
42:04 And then it says: "And the land thereof
42:07 shall become burning pitch. "
42:09 So here's this territory eventually coming on fire.
42:13 And then verse 10 says:
42:16 "It shall not be quenched night nor day.
42:21 The smoke thereof shall go up forever. "
42:25 So here's the smoke text
42:28 where it goes up forever and this is the verse
42:31 That Revelation 14:11 picks up on and builds on.
42:40 Now again, it's talking about a literal territory, right?
42:46 The land of Idumaea.
42:49 Now then notice the rest of the verse
42:52 qualifies what it means,
42:56 what the forever and ever and ever part means.
43:01 It says: "The smoke thereof shall go up forever.
43:05 From generation to generation it shall lie waste.
43:10 None shall pass through it forever and ever. "
43:14 So in this text "forever and ever"
43:17 is qualified by "from generation to generation"
43:24 and it's talking about a certain territory.
43:27 Now let me ask you: is that territory burning now?
43:31 No. No.
43:34 Is Sodom and Gomorrah burning now?
43:36 No. No. The Bible says Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed
43:39 by eternal fire.
43:42 But it also says in I believe it's II Peter
43:46 it says it became ashes in a moment.
43:51 Actually there's a verse in Lamentations.
43:54 Lamentations says God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah
43:57 in a moment. I think it's chapter 4 verse 6.
43:59 II Peter 2:6 talks about
44:01 Sodom and Gomorrah becoming ashes.
44:03 So Sodom and Gomorrah became ashes in a moment.
44:06 Jude verse 7 says this happened as a result
44:09 of eternal fire. So when you put the pieces together
44:13 the eternal fire turned Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes
44:17 in a moment. And the land of Idumaea
44:22 that will have smoke going up forever and ever
44:26 is qualified to mean from generation to generation
44:30 the land is going to lie waste,
44:33 but that land is not burning today.
44:36 And in the new heavens and the new earth
44:38 when God remakes the earth and the heavens
44:41 which we'll talk about - that's my last topic
44:44 which is Saturday night which is a happier topic
44:47 than the torment topic -
44:49 I'll talk about the new heavens and the new earth
44:53 it's very clear that when God remakes the new heavens
44:56 and the new earth there is not going to be a place anywhere
44:59 where smoke is going up forever and ever.
45:04 Amen! It's just not going to happen.
45:06 It's not what the Bible... what the Bible says.
45:09 In fact, let's go back to Revelation
45:13 and look at chapter 20 and 21 quickly.
45:22 And again, we need to look at the whole Bible
45:25 and we need to look at the whole character of God
45:28 which ultimately was revealed by Jesus Christ
45:33 when He gave His life on a cross.
45:35 And Jesus said that God "so loved the world
45:38 that He gave His only begotten Son
45:40 that whoever would believe in Him should not... " What?
45:42 Perish! "should not perish
45:44 but have everlasting life. "
45:46 See any symbolism in that verse?
45:47 It's just a straightforward text where those who believe in Jesus
45:52 will have eternal life and those who don't
45:54 it says they will perish.
45:56 They will perish. Romans 6:23 says
46:00 "The wages of sin is death
46:03 but the gift of God is eternal life. "
46:05 If Jesus paid the full price for our sin
46:09 which all true Bible Christians believe
46:13 that Jesus paid the full price on the cross for our sins
46:17 as the Lamb,
46:19 if the wages of sin is eternal torment
46:23 then in order for Jesus to pay... to legitimately and fully
46:28 to have fully paid the price for sin,
46:32 then He must burn forever
46:35 if that's the true wages of sin.
46:38 Or if it was the wage of sin and He didn't do that
46:42 then He didn't really pay the price.
46:46 But He did pay the price. Amen! He paid the FULL price
46:50 on the cross. And what happened to Him:
46:53 He died... He died.
46:58 And do we believe He was really dead?
47:00 Yes! I do.
47:02 That's what the Bible says: "Christ DIED for our sins
47:06 and He rose from the dead. " Yes!
47:09 Those who reject Him and those who get the mark of the beast,
47:13 those who rebel against God and refuse to submit to the
47:16 authority of His Word to God as our Creator -
47:20 God as our loving Creator - if they refuse that
47:24 persistently and continually and if they die
47:30 then they will come up in the second resurrection
47:33 which is described in Revelation chapter 20 verse 5.
47:36 "The rest of the dead lived not again until the 1,000 years
47:39 were finished. " So the rest of the dead
47:42 who don't come up in the first resurrection when Jesus comes
47:45 they come up in the second resurrection.
47:48 Verse 8 says: "Their number is as the sand of the sea. "
47:53 There's going to be billions of lost people at the end of time
47:57 who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years.
48:00 Verse 9: "They surround the New Jerusalem"
48:03 and then it says: "fire comes down from God
48:05 out of heaven and devours them. "
48:08 Verses 11 to 15 describe a judgment
48:12 that happens prior to their destruction.
48:15 And in that great white throne judgment
48:18 all the lost are gathered around the great white throne
48:20 and they see the reason why they're lost.
48:23 They see where they've rebelled against God;
48:27 where they've rejected God, His character, and His love
48:30 and His Son and His cross and His truth
48:34 that is revealed in the whole Bible.
48:37 They see this. It's going to be a fearful, solemn day
48:41 for the lost.
48:43 And then in verse 15 it says: "Whoever was not found written
48:46 in the Book of Life... " What happens to them?
48:49 It says they're "cast into the lake of fire. "
48:52 There's the fire just like in verse 9.
48:55 The fire comes and devours them.
48:57 And where are they according to verse 8 and verse 9?
49:01 They're on the earth, right? They're marching on the earth
49:06 and they're surrounding the New Jerusalem.
49:09 And fire comes down and devours them
49:13 while they're on the earth.
49:17 And it becomes a lake of fire while they're on the earth.
49:24 And then the very next verse, chapter 21 verse 1
49:31 says: "I saw a new heaven
49:34 and a new earth
49:37 for the first heaven and the first earth
49:40 had passed away. "
49:43 Now where was the lake of fire?
49:45 On the earth. Where were the people?
49:47 On the earth. On the earth: that's what the Bible says.
49:50 Revelation 20:8-9 says they're on the earth.
49:54 The fire comes down upon them on the earth.
49:57 It becomes a lake of fire on the earth.
50:00 The whole planet with all of its sin and evil
50:05 and darkness and deception and wickedness
50:08 and terrorism and pornography
50:11 and child abuse and pain and suffering and sorrow:
50:16 all of this: it's all just going to end up in one big massive
50:22 lake of fire. And why is God going to do that?
50:26 Because His heart is a heart of love
50:29 and He wants to erase the dot
50:33 of evil in His universe
50:36 and get rid of it.
50:39 And verse 1 says that "the first heaven
50:42 and the first earth had passed away. "
50:45 And where was the lake of fire?
50:48 It was on the earth.
50:49 And so when you have a new heaven and a new earth
50:52 and the first heaven and the first earth have passed away
50:56 that tells us that the lake of fire is going to pass away
51:01 as well. Verse 4 says: "And God
51:07 shall wipe away all tears from their eyes
51:12 and there shall be no more death
51:16 neither sorrow nor crying.
51:18 Neither shall there be any more pain
51:21 for the former things are passed away. "
51:23 That's what I'm going to talk about in the last meeting.
51:26 I have the privilege of having the last talk
51:30 and it's going to be on this subject:
51:32 on the new heavens and the new earth.
51:35 And so it says that there's not going to be any more death.
51:39 Not going to be any more sorrow; not going to be any more pain.
51:42 And if hell burned forever,
51:46 if the smoke literally went up forever
51:50 with no symbolism which is not what the Bible says
51:53 then that would mean that somewhere in God's universe
51:57 there's always going to be pain and suffering and sorrow
52:01 and torment and torture
52:03 forever and ever and ever.
52:05 That's what that would mean.
52:08 But that's not true. Amen! That's not what the text says.
52:11 The text says that sorrow, pain, suffering, and death
52:15 is all going to be gone. There won't be any more pain!
52:20 "for the former things have passed away. "
52:23 "And He that sat upon the throne said:
52:25 'Behold, I make all things new! ' "
52:29 Hallelujah!
52:31 "And he said to me: 'Write,
52:34 for these words... ' These words are what?
52:39 True and faithful. 'These words are true and faithful. ' "
52:45 So the Word that says that the lake of fire and sin
52:50 and suffering and pain and sorrow is all going to be gone!
52:56 These words are true; these words are faithful.
53:04 Seventh-day Adventists are not heretics. Amen!
53:09 We're not liberals who rationalize away the Bible.
53:14 We believe in the Word of God.
53:18 Amen! And we believe in studying the whole Bible.
53:21 Amen! And we believe that God's character is
53:24 a character of love that was revealed on a cross
53:29 where Jesus died for our sins and rose again.
53:34 A number of years ago I was having a seminar
53:36 in New Jersey, and a man named Cory was coming to my
53:39 meetings. He was a Jewish man
53:41 but he was coming to a Christian series
53:43 of Bible prophecy meetings.
53:45 And one night I covered this topic.
53:49 It was called "The Hot Topic of Hell. "
53:51 And Cory was there.
53:53 And when that talk was over as I went through these
53:56 different verses and talked about the character of God
53:58 and hell and the fire and it all going away forever,
54:02 God's universe being filled with love
54:04 Cory, when that meeting was over, came up to me.
54:07 Grabbed my hand and he said: "Steve,
54:11 Steve, now I can believe! "
54:15 "Now I can believe! "
54:20 Well the next night I preached again
54:24 and he came back.
54:25 And at the end of that meeting he walked up to me
54:28 and his face was glowing.
54:29 He was just glowing!
54:31 And he grabbed my hand again and he said: "Steve! "
54:34 He said: "Last night after your talk I got on my knees
54:40 in my room and I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior. "
54:46 And he said: "Praise God I'm born again! "
54:52 Cory was baptized at the end of that seminar
54:55 and his Jewish mother was there.
54:57 And she said to me... Afterward she said:
55:01 "I don't know what's happened to my son
55:04 but it's good! It's good! "
55:10 Praise God! Amen.
55:12 Cory's life was changed through not just one text
55:16 about torment going up forever and ever and smoke
55:20 going up forever and ever but looking at the whole Bible.
55:23 Discovering that every time those texts are in Revelation
55:27 they're always symbolic
55:29 or there's symbolism connected with the verses.
55:31 And when you look at the whole Bible
55:33 God's character is a character of love AND justice.
55:39 The torment? We don't want to minimize it.
55:43 It's going to be real.
55:44 Those that reject God and His love and His truth
55:47 and His Word and His law and Him being the Creator
55:52 in the final message - the third angel's message -
55:54 the three angels' messages, if they reject this
55:57 and persistently say: "No, no, no. I'm not going to
56:00 follow Jesus; I'm not going to follow the Bible.
56:02 I'm not going to follow the three angels' messages;
56:05 I'm going to get the mark of the beast...
56:06 go along with the beast and get the mark. "
56:10 They will suffer for those choices.
56:14 There will be torment and it will be real.
56:17 And probably the greatest torment is the realization
56:20 of what they've lost. Yes!
56:22 That they've lost out on eternity
56:24 with God and with Jesus and with all the angels
56:28 and with all the saints and with all the Bible people.
56:32 And they've lost out on eternity with Christ.
56:36 That's going to be the worst torment of them all...
56:41 of all of it.
56:42 But we don't have to go through that,
56:44 praise the Lord! We have a chance
56:48 to follow our Bibles and to follow our Savior.
56:54 And when all the sin and the torment and the suffering
56:58 is over it will be OVER! Amen!
57:04 And there'll be a new heaven and a new earth
57:06 and righteousness will be there.
57:09 And we all have a chance to be there.
57:13 The universe used to be happy.
57:15 Sin entered when Lucifer rebelled.
57:19 And God is going to erase that dot
57:21 and get rid of sin. And His universe will be full
57:24 of love. Amen! And the great news is that we
57:29 can all be there.


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Revised 2018-09-12