Participants: Ivor Myers (Host), James Rafferty (Host), Jason Bradley, Yvonne Lewis
Series Code: SISS
Program Code: SISS000049A
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00:29 Okay, we made a good start,
00:30 we got into Revelation chapter 12, 00:32 we talked about the woman 00:34 and the glorious picture that's revealed there, 00:36 of course, this woman representing the Jewish Church 00:39 and Christ coming forth from this woman 00:42 but I love the big picture of what was brought out there, Ivor 00:45 where we went all the way back to Genesis chapter 3 00:47 and we looked at the conflict and the promise, 00:49 the travailing of the church all the way through history 00:53 and the amazing revelations... the shadows, if you will, 00:57 of this conflict that finally brings forth Messiah... 01:01 and finally He's born and the dragon tries to destroy Him 01:04 of course through Herod, we see that in the gospels, but, 01:07 He's caught up to heaven, 01:08 He's caught up to God and to His throne 01:10 and He's going to rule the nations, so, 01:13 so we know this is the birth of the Messiah 01:15 that started our fourth prophetic cycle, 01:17 we left off in verse 5 01:19 and I'm hoping that we can just pick up there 01:21 and continue on verse 6, 7, 8 onward and just... 01:24 just understand what these verses are talking about 01:26 but before we do that, 01:27 the only way that we're going to understand this 01:29 is if we had a word of prayer, Yvonne. 01:30 Yvonne: Yes, sure. "Father, thank you so very much 01:33 for just being with us Lord, 01:35 and helping us to study your Word... 01:37 please, now bring everything 01:40 into remembrance that needs to be there, 01:42 help that every word that's spoken 01:44 will bring you honor and glory, thank you Father God, 01:47 thank you for your Spirit, in Jesus' name, amen. " 01:49 All: "Amen. " 01:51 James: Ivor, something that I've noticed here 01:53 that I think is significant, 01:54 we identified the woman as the Jewish church 01:57 why? because Christ was born a Jew, 01:59 He was born in the Jewish Church, 02:01 we haven't really looked at Bible verses 02:04 that say that a woman is the church 02:06 and I think it would be important for us to do that 02:08 because, in verse 6, 02:10 we see this woman fleeing in the wilderness 02:12 and the question I am asking you in this context is 02:15 the Jewish Church was basically taken out in A.D. 70 02:18 what is the woman that flees... 02:19 what church flees into the wilderness? 02:21 Has something taken place here in relation to the church... 02:27 in relation to early Christian history, 02:30 the history of the church? 02:32 So, what about a couple of verses 02:33 that identify the woman as a church 02:35 because we just kind of said, 02:36 "Oh yeah, this woman is a church... " we kind of said that 02:38 but we didn't really go and look at some verses, 02:40 so, we have a few verses on that? 02:42 Ivor: Yeah, I think we can look at Ephesians chapter 5 02:49 and let's look at verse 20... start with verse 25... 02:54 yeah, Ephesians 5 verse... let's look at verse... 02:59 let's look at verse 23... 03:01 let's start with verse 23 and read on. 03:02 James: Okay, I've another one too and that's 03:03 2nd Corinthians chapter 11, and I wanted us to look at 03:07 verse 2, I think, would do it. 03:09 Ivor: Okay, so, I'll go ahead and read this, 03:11 "For the husband is the head of the wife, 03:14 even as Christ is the head of the church... " 03:17 James: Okay... Ivor: okay... 03:19 "and he is the Saviour of the body. 03:20 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, 03:22 so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 03:26 Husbands, love your wives, 03:27 even as Christ also loved the church, 03:30 and gave himself for it; 03:31 That he might sanctify and cleanse it 03:34 with the washing of water by the word. 03:36 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, 03:39 not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; 03:42 but that it should be holy and without blemish. " 03:44 Yvonne: Hmmm... 03:46 Ivor: So, these verses clearly point to us... 03:48 point out to us that the relationship between 03:51 the husband and the wife is synonymous with the 03:54 relationship between Christ and His church. 03:57 James: Okay, the one I'm thinking about, 03:59 did anyone look that one up, 2nd Corinthians chapter 11? 04:02 Yvonne: Yes. "For I am jealous over you 04:04 with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you 04:07 to one husband, that I may present you 04:09 as a chaste virgin to Christ. " 04:11 James: All right, so between those two sections of Scriptures 04:14 and there are a number of them in the Old Testament 04:16 that are very clear, "I've likened the daughter of 04:17 Zion to a delicate, comely woman" 04:19 over and over again, we see this symbolism 04:23 of the woman representing the church. 04:25 The woman representing God's people 04:27 and in this on context, then, 04:29 we've identified this woman as the Jewish Church 04:33 because Jesus Christ was born a Jew, 04:36 in the age of the Jewish church 04:38 and in being born a Jew, 04:41 He came into this world to be the Messiah 04:43 was caught up to heaven... and then a transition takes place 04:45 the Jewish Nation as a Nation 04:47 rejects Christ... not individuals... 04:51 there were a lot of... 1000s of Jews accepted Christ as Messiah 04:54 but the Nation itself... the Leaders... the Sanhedrin... 04:56 reject Christ, He's crucified, 04:59 their rejection is sealed up 05:02 when they stone Stephen in A.D. 34 05:03 and at that point, the Jewish Church... 05:06 is closing the door to the acceptance of Messiah 05:11 and Christ, even in His death, He brings 12 apostles together 05:15 and begins a new church, 05:17 one of the apostles, of course, betrays Christ, Judas, 05:19 and he's replaced... 05:20 and I think Paul ends up being the final replacement for him, 05:23 but we have the beginning of the Christian Church, 05:26 and I see, this is what we're talking about in verse 6 05:28 we're not talking about the 05:30 Jewish Church fleeing in the wilderness, 05:31 we're talking about the Christian Church 05:33 fleeing in the wilderness. 05:34 Ivor: Yeah, what's really interesting is that 05:38 in verse... man, I'm just having a moment here, 05:42 Yvonne: Oh... you just saw something, oh... 05:46 come on... come on... come on now... 05:50 James: I can't remember if you talk in these moments or not. 05:52 Ivor: I don't talk during these moments... 05:53 James: You don't talk during these moments? 05:54 Jason: It's not healthy to keep it bottled up. 05:56 James: It's not... you need to let it out. 05:57 Yvonne: He's savoring it. 05:59 Ivor: Yeah... so, in verse 5 it says, 06:00 "She brought forth a man child, 06:01 who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: 06:04 and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. " 06:05 James: Right. 06:07 Ivor: This whole verse summarizes 06:08 what Israel had been waiting for for a very long time. 06:11 They had been waiting for the coming of the Messiah, 06:13 and this tells about His coming, 06:15 His death, burial and resurrection 06:17 well, here's what's interesting about that. 06:20 In the book of Daniel, there is a prophecy 06:23 that pointed forward to the coming of Christ, 06:25 it is a 70-Week Prophecy, 06:27 that 70-Week Prophecy basically stated to Israel 06:30 that they had a certain period of time 06:33 to basically get it together 06:36 and if they did not get it together, 06:37 the Messiah would be coming in within this time 06:39 and if they did not get it together, 06:40 God was basically going to take the gospel from them 06:43 and give it to a Nation... 06:46 bringing forth the fruits thereof. 06:47 That prophecy is called the 70-Week Prophecy, 06:51 it ends in 34 A.D. 06:53 it's the very year you mentioned in which Stephen was stoned. 06:55 The significant thing about this is that 70 weeks... 06:59 a week is 7 days... 70 weeks is 70 times 7 07:03 I don't know if you remember when Jesus... 07:06 when Peter came to Jesus and said, 07:07 "Jesus, how often should I 07:09 grant mercy to my enemies, seven times? 07:11 And Jesus said, "No, I say unto you, 70 times 7" 07:15 70 times 7 represents the number... 07:17 the measure of God's mercy before that mercy's cut off, 07:23 and so what happens is that 07:25 when Israel had rejected the Messiah 07:27 and made it... kind of sealed it with the stoning of Stephen, 07:32 the 70 times 7 was up and Jesus, as He had prophesied, 07:37 "the Kingdom would be taken from them 07:39 and given forth to a Nation 07:40 bringing forth the fruits thereof. " 07:42 Yvonne: Hmmm... 07:43 Ivor: The interesting thing about this is that 07:45 there are three time prophecies in the book of Daniel, 07:48 there's the 70 weeks, there's the 1,260 years 07:51 and then there is the 2,300-year prophecy 07:54 in which a remnant comes upon the scene 07:56 which keeps the commandments of God and has the faith of Jesus. 08:00 James: Hmmm... hmmm... 08:01 Ivor: In chapter 12, you have all three present, 08:04 you have the 70 weeks, 08:06 Christ's coming... being caught up 08:08 in the very next verse, 08:10 you have the woman going into the wilderness for how long? 08:13 1,260... and at the very end of the chapter, 08:17 you have the dragon going after the remnant 08:21 which keep the commandments of God 08:23 and have the faith of Jesus, 08:25 it attests the 2,300-Day Prophecy 08:28 which we will see when we get to Revelation chapter 14, 08:31 but this transition from 08:34 literal Israel to spiritual Israel, 08:36 when we read Revelation chapter 5 and see, 08:38 "Oh, this is when Christ is caught up to the throne, 08:40 He came, He died, was buried... resurrected, 08:43 we know that Old Testament Israel had rejected the Messiah 08:47 so there's this transition so when we read in verse 6 08:51 that this woman flees into the wilderness, 08:53 yeah, this woman is that nation 08:55 bringing forth the fruits thereof. 08:57 She's spiritual Israel, made up of Jew and Gentile, 09:01 those who are in the bloodline, if you will, of Jesus Christ... 09:05 because they've accepted Him by faith. 09:08 James: Yet, Revelation 12 still calls her the woman... 09:11 Ivor: Yes... and I think this is really important, Ivor, 09:14 because I think some of our Viewers are 09:16 struggling with this transition so here's what I want to do, 09:19 I want us to look at a couple of verses, 09:20 I'm thinking of Galatians 3:29 and Romans 2:28 and 29 09:25 and the reason why I want to mention this 09:28 is because the reason why the woman does... 09:30 God doesn't say in Revelation 12, 09:32 "The woman gave birth to the child... " 09:33 then there was another woman, or then there was a spiritual... 09:35 and then there was a... no... it's still the woman... 09:39 the woman doesn't change... see, the woman never changes, 09:42 the woman has always been... 09:44 all the way through history, it's been the same woman 09:46 and we've got to decide... 09:47 if we're going to be part of that woman because that woman... 09:49 is the one who gives birth to the man child 09:51 the seed... she's going to bring forth the seed. 09:52 That woman is the church, 09:55 always has been... always will be the church, 09:57 so how are we part of that church? 09:59 Galatians 3:29... 10:00 Yvonne: I think you hit the mike on the head because... 10:05 because there's no statement of a new woman 10:10 and yet, there's a transition here, 10:13 into another aspect of the woman, I guess, 10:17 but see, I've never... I had questions about that 10:21 because it just... 10:23 that's one of the things that doesn't really... 10:24 I haven't connected it yet. 10:26 James: We're going to look at three verses, 10:28 we're going to look at Galatians 3:29... 10:29 Romans 2:28 and 29 10:30 and then we're going to look at Romans 9. 10:32 Ivor: I'm in Romans 9 right now. 10:34 James: So you get Romans 9, 10:35 you got Galatians 3:29... 10:36 Yvonne, Romans 2:28 and 29, let's start with Jason. 10:40 Jason: "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, 10:44 and heirs according to the promise. " 10:46 James: The only way you're Abraham's seed... 10:48 which... the seed of Abraham is Israel, right? 10:50 Yvonne: Right. James: Is if you're in Christ. 10:52 Okay, your verses. 10:53 Yvonne: Oh, okay, wow, Romans 2:28 and 29, 10:57 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; 11:00 neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 11:04 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; 11:07 and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, 11:10 and not in the letter; 11:11 whose praise is not of men, but of God. " 11:14 James: Okay, so it's inward, it's in Abraham's seed... 11:18 in Christ or Abraham's seed, it's not outward, it's inward, 11:21 now what do we have in Romans 9? 11:23 Ivor: Romans 9 verse 6 to 8 and it says, 11:26 "Not as though the word of God has taken not effect. 11:29 For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 11:32 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, 11:35 are they all children: 11:36 but, In Isaac shall they seed be called. 11:39 And that is, They which are the children 11:41 of the flesh, these are not the children of God: 11:44 but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. " 11:46 James: Hmmm... hmmm... 11:48 Ivor: "the children of the promise... " 11:49 Yvonne: Hmmm... 11:51 James: See what these verse are saying? 11:52 These verses are telling us that it's always been... 11:55 always has been... the children of the promise. 11:57 Ivor: So, that's Israel... 11:59 James: Yes, yes. 12:00 Ivor: It's still Israel... 12:01 James: It's still Israel... it's still the woman... 12:03 Ivor: Yeah. James: It's still the woman... 12:05 just because you have an official church 12:07 that rejects Christ, doesn't mean that the woman 12:10 has gone somewhere, the woman is still present, 12:12 everyone who accepts Christ is part of this woman, 12:14 the woman continues on... 12:16 no one takes the identity of the woman, 12:18 no one can steal the identity of the church, 12:21 the church marches on... the church marches on. 12:23 It stays... all the way through it stays... 12:25 it's stable... it's Christ's church 12:27 and the gates of hell do not prevail against it 12:29 and it's really interesting 12:31 because the foundation of the Christian church is Jewish, 12:34 all the disciples were Jewish... the Messiah is Jewish 12:37 and thousands of Jews came into that church 12:40 but the goal of the church was to win the world. 12:43 Everyone was to become part of Abraham's seed. 12:45 Ivor: That's right. 12:47 James: As the stars of heaven, 12:48 everyone was to become a spiritual Israel, 12:50 everyone was to be part of that "saved multitude" 12:54 and so, that's why I think it's so important 12:56 to see this right here, 12:57 we don't identify God's woman in Revelation chapter 8 ethnically 13:03 we don't identify her in a specific location 13:06 she is identified right here by what she goes through 13:09 first of all, bringing forth a man child, 13:10 second of all... going into the wilderness 13:12 and then as she gets to the very end, 13:13 we see the remnant of this woman, 13:15 she's identified as keeping the commandments of God 13:17 and having the testimony of Jesus. 13:18 There are a lot of Jews that keep the commandments of God 13:20 but don't have the testimony of Jesus, 13:22 there are a lot of people having the testimony of Jesus, 13:23 but they don't keep the commandments of God. 13:24 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... 13:26 James: So the woman... the one that's continued on 13:28 and never stopped and never ceased, 13:29 all the way through the wilderness, 13:31 all the way through the Dark Ages, all the way through, 13:33 the woman... when she comes out in the other end, 13:35 when you see the last remnant, this is what she does. 13:37 Ivor: And what's crucial to understand is... 13:42 God has already shown us through the seven churches 13:45 remember, the church is the bride 13:48 so as we learn the history of the early church 13:51 and we're now looking at Martin Luther 13:53 as part of that church, 13:55 "Oh, but the church can't be the literal nation of Israel 14:00 because He just showed us the seven churches, 14:03 we just looked at the history of the church, 14:05 we looked at the history of the church... being persecuted... " 14:09 and this is the description so, Revelation 12... 14:12 we understand it better 14:14 as we understand Revelation chapters 1 through 11, 14:17 as we understand the seven churches, 14:19 how they unfold... He's already showed us 14:21 now He's just saying, "Okay, I just want to make sure, 14:24 now when I say, 'woman' you know what that means right? 14:27 Because that's going to be important to understand 14:30 when we get to Revelation chapter 17 14:31 when we get to Revelation chapter 18." 14:33 And we see one woman trying to go after another woman 14:36 right? One woman trying to destroy God's bride... 14:40 we begin to understand these pieces... 14:42 these important pieces, 14:44 you know, I was thinking, 14:45 we talked about the journey of... of Israel for... 14:48 I mean, sorry, the journey 14:49 to get into Revelation chapter 12, 13, 14... 14:53 if you're going on a trip, you get on the plane 14:57 or you get on the bus... you're traveling 14:59 and eventually when you get to the place where you're going, 15:03 the place where we're going is Revelation chapter 12 to 22, 15:06 the journey is Revelation chapter 1 to 11, 15:09 so we're on the journey... "Okay, I see that... " 15:12 we're kind of looking at things on the way there... 15:14 "Wow! that's nice... oh, look at that over there" 15:17 the destination... that's where we are right now, 15:20 from 12... 13... James: Yeah, we're arriving... 15:23 Ivor: We're arriving... so when we get to 13... 14 onward, 15:26 "Okay, this is where we are now, 15:27 wait... this is where we are now in earth's history, 15:30 now we're at the destination, 15:32 I can understand the destination better 15:34 by the journey that I took to get there. " 15:36 Yvonne: Yeah. Ivor: Yeah. 15:37 James: Now there's something else God wants us to notice 15:39 in this chapter that's really significant 15:42 and it underlies... it's not overtly recognizable 15:46 but it will be as we get through to some other verses 15:49 but it starts... and I'm just going to use the word here, 15:52 it starts here in verse 4 and you might wonder why 15:55 why are verses 3 and 4 in there? 15:59 They're talking about the great dragon, 16:00 having six heads... excuse me... 16:02 seven heads and ten horns 16:03 and crowns on his heads and then in verse 4... 16:05 "and his tail... drew the third part of the stars of heaven 16:08 and cast them to the earth" 16:09 why do we transition to that? Well, here's the reason why... 16:13 because the warning that God is giving us here 16:18 in recounting this history, 16:19 is a warning against deception, about being deceived... 16:22 the tail... according to Isaiah 9:15, 16:25 the tail of any symbolic... let me re-phrase that... 16:30 the symbolism of the tail is: lies and deception... 16:34 Yvonne: Ah... 16:36 James: So the dragon is sweeping these... 16:37 one third of the angels out of heaven by his lies and deception 16:40 the dragon started the deception in heaven, 16:44 that was the first time it happened 16:46 and it happened with the angels, 16:47 the second time it happened 16:48 was in the Garden of Eden with the woman. 16:50 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... 16:51 James: So you have the woman and you have the serpent... 16:53 you have the woman and you have the serpent mentioned here, 16:54 it should remind us of the Garden of Eden, 16:56 it explicitly here... spells out the deception in heaven, 17:00 the dragon with the tail... the third of the angels 17:03 so you've got the "heaven deception," 17:04 you've got the "woman deception," 17:06 then, the next deception that is huge right now 17:10 in the Christian world... is the lack of recognizing transition 17:14 from the Jewish Church to the Christian Church, 17:17 what we've just talked about 17:18 that the woman continues on she is God's church... 17:22 God's church is not back with 17:24 this Jewish nation in the Middle East, 17:27 that's where the focus of a lot of people is right now, 17:29 that's not it... the focus is... this worldwide church 17:32 that has continued on... that's the third deception, 17:35 it's one of the biggest right now, 17:36 because everyone's thinking, 17:37 "the only way prophecy can be fulfilled 17:39 is with this literal Jewish Nation, 17:40 getting the temple restored... rebuilt... 17:42 God says, 'it's going to lay desolate till the end of time'" 17:44 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... 17:45 James: Okay.. and then the fourth deception... 17:47 and here it is... right here... the 4th deception, 17:49 it says here, okay here it is... 17:52 verse 9, "And the great dragon was cast out, 17:58 that old serpent, called the Devil, 18:00 and Satan, which deceives the whole world" 18:02 that's what... when Ivor says, 18:05 "we've been journeying but now we've arrived... " 18:07 this is where we are... 18:08 see... he deceived a third of the angels, 18:10 right... he deceived the woman in Eden, right, 18:13 he's deceived a lot of people in relation to this transition 18:18 but now he's out to deceive the entire world, 18:21 that's what he's building to, deception of the entire world, 18:24 so that's where we've arrived to, 18:26 so God is actually preparing us 18:27 to be able to withstand the deception 18:29 that's coming upon the entire world, 18:31 as we get into the last few chapters 18:32 of the book of Revelation. Yvonne: Hmmm... 18:34 Ivor: And I want to share something that we... 18:35 it's a little bit backward because we have not covered... 18:38 typically when you go through the book of Revelation, 18:42 it's really good to have an understanding 18:43 of the book of Daniel first... Old Testament... 18:46 the books go together... Yvonne: Right. 18:48 Ivor: We're going to be doing Daniel later on... 18:51 but... there's something... because God is... 18:54 James and I were talking and we were saying, 18:57 "You know, in Revelation 12, it seems like these verses, 19:00 like, more than any other verses in the entire book of Revelation 19:03 that these verses seem to have like dual layers 19:06 and just hold your place, read Revelation12:4 again, 19:10 "his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven 19:13 and did cast them to the earth" 19:15 okay, this is talking about the dragon, 19:17 go back, if you will, with me to the book of Daniel chapter 8. 19:20 James: Oh 8... yeah... yeah... yeah... yeah... 19:22 Ivor: Daniel chapter 8, absolutely... 19:25 and in Daniel chapter 8 and verse 9, 19:28 it speaks about this little horn 19:30 and this little horn... we understand to be 19:34 a representation of the Papal Power, 19:37 but notice what it says of this, it says, 19:39 "And out of one of them came forth... 19:41 out of one of them came forth a little horn, 19:43 which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, 19:46 and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. " 19:48 And it waxed great, even to the... " who? 19:51 All: Host... 19:52 Ivor: "the host of heaven; and 19:54 it cast down some of the host and of the stars 19:57 to the ground, and stamped upon them. 19:58 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host" 20:02 we'll stop right there, 20:04 it's almost as though God is opening up our eyes, 20:08 saying, "Hey, look at this verse but I want you to look at it 20:10 a little bit deeper because I'm preparing you to see something, 20:13 not only that... this same little horn... 20:15 just jump back with me to Daniel 7, 20:17 Daniel 7 and in verse 8, I believe it is, 20:21 "I considered the horns, and, behold, 20:25 there came up among them another little horn... " 20:26 there are ten horns... and then there's this little horn, 20:30 and again, it's the same little horn, right? 20:31 Ivor: "before whom there were three of the first horns 20:34 plucked up by the roots... " 20:36 so this little horn... uproots three out of the ten horns 20:40 that's roughly one third of the ten horns... 20:44 All: Hmmm... Ivor: Okay, what in the world? 20:47 Here you have the dragon, what is he doing? 20:50 He deceives one third of the angels... 20:52 or roots one third of the angels... 20:53 and he casts down the stars and the host to the ground, 20:57 where have I heard that before? That's the little horn... 21:00 could it be... that the little horn 21:03 is doing on earth the exact same thing 21:05 that Satan did in heaven? All: Hmmm... 21:07 Ivor: In other words, God in these... 21:09 in this particular chapter is giving us like... 21:12 insights that are... multi-dimensional 21:15 so we're following a pattern but He's beginning to say, 21:18 "No, no, no, no... look a little bit closer 21:19 look... because this power that 21:21 appears to be the mystery of Godliness, 21:23 is actually the mystery of iniquity. " 21:26 James: Right... Yvonne: Hmmm... 21:27 Ivor: Right... "It's actually deceptive, 21:29 it's actually doing something... 21:31 even though it's speaking in my name, 21:32 that's not me... I'm showing you who this power is really like, 21:36 this power is really like the dragon, 21:38 and I'm not the dragon... " 21:40 that's what the world thinks, right, 21:42 that's what the Atheist thinks, 21:43 "Man, God... He is vindictive... He is... " 21:46 No, no, no, no, no... wrong picture... 21:47 this is who He is. 21:50 James: I love these parallels, 21:51 I love that parallel between 8 and 12. 21:52 I never saw that before, that's so significant 21:54 because there's another connection. 21:57 James: This is another connection between the books 21:58 of Daniel and Revelation and I think it's really important 22:01 to see those connections. 22:02 Ivor: So, back in 11... I'm sorry... 12... 22:05 James: 12... yeah, so, now we're getting into 22:09 some principle, key verses, 22:11 we've got deception, deception, deception, 22:13 "Well, I don't know, maybe... maybe he's going to deceive us, 22:16 maybe he isn't going to deceive us, how, how... " 22:17 well, wait a minute... let's read verses 7, 8 and 9, 22:21 and see just how powerful this deception is. 22:24 Jason, read those verses for us, would you? 22:26 "And there was war in heaven: 22:28 Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; 22:30 and the dragon fought and his angels, 22:32 And prevailed not; 22:33 neither was their place found any more in heaven. 22:36 And the great dragon was cast out, 22:38 that old serpent, called the Devil, 22:40 and Satan which deceiveth the whole world: 22:42 he was cast out into the earth, 22:44 and his angels were cast out with him. " 22:46 James: His angels... did Satan create angels, like, 22:50 "What do you mean... 'his angels?'" 22:51 Is... Satan's the creator and God created some angels 22:55 and then Satan created some angels? 22:56 How did he get angels? He deceived them. 23:00 You actually become... you are possessed by Satan... 23:03 you become his property, it's not like you have freedom, 23:06 "they're mine... " okay and now, they have... 23:10 they have been deceived so what we need to realize is 23:13 Satan's work has started in heaven, 23:16 Satan deceived unfallen angels, it's powerful, 23:20 God is saying, "Look out... you're not safe on your own 23:24 this is what you're dealing with right here, 23:27 this is a power that you can't handle yourself... " 23:30 but I love the focus of this because it says, 23:34 "Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; 23:38 and the dragon fought and his angels and prevailed not... 23:41 and prevailed not... " 23:44 so, there is a place for... 23:48 we might even say there's a place for church discipline, 23:52 there is a place for discipline, 23:53 Satan is allowed to continue existence 23:56 but he's not allowed to stay in heaven. 23:57 Yvonne: Hmmm... 23:59 James: He's kicked out of heaven, 24:01 "This... your place in heaven is lost 24:03 because you would cause chaos, you would cause division, 24:06 you would cause anarchy... right here, 24:08 if you stayed right here... " so, he goes out of heaven 24:10 because he's not prevailing because the dragon now... 24:13 I mean... because Michael now, 24:15 Michael... the word Michael means "one who is like God" 24:21 one who is like God... 24:22 Jason: That makes me think about Adam and Eve 24:24 when they were kicked out of the garden, 24:26 when they were deceived but they still were allowed to exist 24:31 and all that stuff, yeah. 24:33 James: So we're coming back to the issue of character, 24:35 "one who is like God... " 24:37 in other words, Satan is kicked out 24:38 by someone who... I don't think it's by force... 24:41 this war is not a... "I'm stronger than you... " 24:45 this is a... polemic... this is a war of words... 24:49 this is a war of character. 24:50 Ivor: Michael... "one who is like God. " 24:52 James: Yes... yes... 24:54 Ivor: Keep going man, keep going. 24:55 James: Yeah, I will... I will... 24:57 Ivor: You give me a minute... 24:58 give me a minute, go, go, go, you got to build your theme. 25:01 James: All right, hold on let me just put my Timer on real quick 25:03 a minute... a minute... 25:06 okay let's start right there, okay, 59 seconds... 25:10 okay, so, this is a war of character, 25:13 the only way that Satan can be kicked out is if 25:17 Michael prevails in revealing God's character 25:20 because Satan has sought to undermine God's character, 25:24 deceived the angels about God and we know that 25:25 because when we go to the Garden of Eden, 25:27 that's what Satan does immediately with Eve. 25:29 Satan probably tells her the same things he told the angels. 25:31 "God is restrictive... God wants to control you... 25:35 God knows that in the day you eat, you will be like Him... 25:38 He wants to keep you on a lower level... 25:40 I'm just telling you... I'm just telling you because 25:41 I like God, He's got a great Kingdom 25:43 and He's really good at what He does, 25:44 on His place and time but... you've got to graduate from that 25:47 you've got to move on, you know, 25:49 you've got to... you need to come to my school 25:51 and I can teach you some things 25:53 that you're not going to get from God 25:54 and it will be better for you, you'll be wiser... 25:56 you'll have all kinds of insight and understanding... " 25:59 and Michael comes and He just reveals this character 26:01 He's not warring... fighting in the sense of... 26:05 He's just revealing more and more of the character of God 26:07 and we have to make it... oh... sorry... the timer... time's up. 26:12 Ivor: Michael... I'm following you... 26:16 so, Michael... the name means, "the one who is like God" 26:19 Lucifer was cast out of heaven, why? 26:22 Because he wanted to be like God "I can be like the Most High" 26:27 but why was he cast out? 26:29 What deception was there in being like...? 26:31 Because there's nothing wrong 26:32 with wanting to be like the Most High... 26:34 but Lucifer... had iniquity in him, 26:36 in other words, he rejected God's law, 26:39 Lucifer, basically, in heaven, was like, 26:41 "Look, I can be like God without obeying His law" 26:44 I don't need a law in order to determine what righteousness is, 26:47 I can determine it for myself what righteousness is, 26:51 so, Lucifer was anti-Law... which... 26:54 "Man, oh, I can be like God, 26:56 I can be holy without a Law telling me what to do" 26:58 you know what? 26:59 That's exactly what the little horn does, 27:01 "You can be like God... you don't need to obey His Laws" 27:05 that's exactly what he told Eve in the Garden... 27:07 he didn't say, "Eve, do you want to be evil?" 27:09 he said, "Eve, you can be like God without obeying Him, 27:14 you can be like Michael, you can be like God. " 27:18 Ivor: So this term of "Michael" fighting it... 27:21 the argument is, "How can you be like God? 27:25 Is it through your own righteousness 27:26 or is it submitting to the will of God?" Yeah... 27:29 James: And what does it mean to be like God? 27:31 Ivor: And what does it mean to be like God? 27:33 James: We are out of time again, 27:34 we're going to pick this up... we've got to look at this 27:36 because this is a powerful picture 27:38 and we've got to see how this war impacts us today, right now. 27:43 Yvonne: Yeah, ooooh. |
Revised 2017-01-04