Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Diane Wagner
Series Code: TAC
Program Code: TAC000001A
|
00:08 Do you know someone who has had an abortion?
00:10 Or perhaps that someone is you. 00:12 Do you know someone who has suffered unimaginable 00:15 pain and guilt because of abortion? 00:18 If so, there is good news right here, 00:21 there is hope and healing for you - so don't away. 00:52 Welcome to Part 1 of a 13-part series called: 00:55 "The Abortion Controversy" 00:56 We are going to be dealing with a topic that 00:58 many people just don't want to talk about; 01:00 they buried it so deep and it's hard to get it out, 01:03 but we're going to do it. 01:04 We're going to do it with hearts of love. 01:07 My guest, for the first program, is "Dianne Wagner." 01:10 She is a retired registered nurse' she is a mother of 4. 01:14 She is from North Carolina and she has had 2 abortions herself. 01:17 She has suffered more than I'll ever know, 01:19 or that you'll ever know, and yet she has found hope 01:22 and healing and she is here to share her story with you, 01:26 and with me. 01:28 Dianne, thank you. Thank you, and I want to 01:31 tell you what first interested me, really, in doing 01:36 this series with you, having you come, 01:38 and having Antoinette come later on, and it started 01:41 with a friend that was sending me literature and books, 01:46 and information in the mail, and by email, 01:48 just really encouraging me to get involved in this topic. 01:52 And, I'm a busy man, I have a lot of things to do 01:54 with my wife, my kids, the ministry. 01:56 And, I just kept, you know, it wasn't really 01:58 on the front burner, but then I was sent a link to 02:04 your talk and Antoinette Duck's talk at ASI, 02:09 at a big church convention. 02:10 And, I was in Oregon, in a hotel on Saturday night, 02:15 and I had some free time, and I took out my phone, 02:18 and I found a link on my phone, 02:20 and I listened to your entire talk, your story. 02:22 And I tell you, Dianne, I was so... I just want to 02:25 hold your hand... I was so moved by listening 02:29 to what you had to say, and what Antoinette had to say, 02:31 that it just brought me over the line. 02:33 Praise the Lord. 02:35 And I thought, we have got to do a series on this, 02:38 and bring you here. 02:40 So here we are and the time is yours, 02:43 we'll bounce back and forth, but tell us what's on your heart. 02:46 Well, I love the title "Breaking the Silence," 02:49 because one thing I've learned is that people 02:51 are silent about this issue, and they are afraid to speak out... 02:56 And a lot of times, the reason they're afraid to speak out 02:58 is because they're afraid they are going to hurt somebody 03:01 who has had an abortion. 03:03 And I was one of those ladies who has had the abortion, 03:07 and no one talked about it, 03:09 no one knew how to talk about it. 03:11 And I'm one of many; in fact, since 1973 03:15 or between 1973 and 2011, there were 53 million abortions, 03:21 induced abortions in this country. 03:23 ... 53 million 03:25 And that's just up until 2011, it's estimated that it's up to 03:30 57 million now. 03:31 And correct me if I'm wrong, but that's just in America. 03:34 That's in America, that's correct. 03:36 Wow, we're dealing with a huge topic. 03:37 It's a big issue, it is, and, you know, as I looked 03:40 into it, I realized 21% of all pregnancies in this country 03:45 will end in an induced abortion. 03:48 And, half of American women will have an unintended, 03:53 not planned, pregnancy by the age of 45. Half - wow... 03:57 And 4 out of 10 of those pregnancies will be terminated 04:01 by abortion. 04:02 I thought that was very sobering and then 04:05 half of those ladies have already had one abortion already 04:10 which is very sobering. 04:12 Now, I thought, well who are these people? 04:15 Who are - who are the people who are having these abortions? 04:18 Well, 18% are teenagers, 57% are in their 20s, 04:24 44% are college-age kids which I thought was amazing, 04:29 37% are Protestant and 28% have a Catholic background. 04:35 Of those who are having abortion in America. That's right 04:38 I mean, that's more than half, that's just a shocking statistic 04:44 So what you're saying is based on the numbers, 04:47 that more than half of the abortions in America 04:50 are occurring with women that have 04:54 a religious background. Exactly... 04:57 Protestant or Catholic... 04:58 That's right, it's not just "out there," 05:01 it's in our church. It's in the churches as well. 05:03 It sounds like the divorce rate, too, I've heard 05:06 or read, it's similar to what is happening in the secular society 05:10 and in the church, the divorce rate is the same. 05:12 So the abortion numbers are right there too. 05:15 That's right, that's right, and you know, I was one of them. 05:18 I was brought up in a Seventh-day Adventist home, 05:22 and I went to the church school, and was a Pathfinder, 05:25 went to summer camp, loved summer camp. 05:27 Worked in summer camp, and went through the academy, 05:30 and have great memories of band trips and choir trips, 05:34 you know - temperance rallies and Bible conferences... 05:36 I loved it all. 05:38 In fact, it was in academy that 05:39 I gave my heart to Jesus at 15... 15 05:42 I loved the experience, and now, college was 05:45 harder for me because it was during the college years 05:48 that my parents divorced, and I experienced the prejudice 05:53 and the inconsistencies within this church 05:56 that I loved so much. 05:57 And, I'll be honest with you, I had to step back... 06:00 I had to reevaluate my position with the church... 06:04 You know, is God here? Is this where the Lord wants me? 06:07 Was I just growing up in some enchanted 06:10 Seventh-day Adventist bubble while growing up, 06:14 and now here's the cruel reality? 06:16 So you found out that the Adventist Church, 06:18 like other churches, is not a perfect church. 06:21 Exactly, exactly, and so by the time... 06:24 you know, I was engaged to be married 06:27 to my college sweetheart, the Lord had 06:29 had answered my questions. 06:31 And my husband-to-be and myself, we both wanted to have 06:35 a Seventh-day Adventist home, and we wanted to have a 06:37 Christian home, of course. 06:39 And I knew the Lord had anointed my church, 06:42 and I knew the Lord had a high calling for this church, 06:46 so I recommitted myself to it. 06:49 But now, with that said, 6 months before my wedding day, 06:53 I found out that I was pregnant. 06:55 And you told me that you messed up - you can say... One time. 07:00 One time and that one time was enough, 07:02 and then you discovered... oh my, 07:05 there's a baby inside me. 07:07 That's right - that didn't matter. 07:08 I had blown it, and I was embarrassed to death. 07:11 I was shamed, I just panicked, my life became a blur. 07:15 I know I called my mother, but I don't remember 07:19 a thing she said, and I called my fiancee; 07:22 don't remember a thing he said. 07:26 It's like amnesia, you just... 07:27 Panic, it's absolutely panic. 07:30 Blacked it out or just couldn't even remember. 07:31 Your life was in a whirlwind. 07:34 Scared to death, but the hospital that I was working at, 07:37 because I was a traveling nurse at the time, 07:39 they required x-rays on the lower back. 07:42 So I had had a series of x-rays on my back... 07:45 And that was before you knew that you were pregnant. 07:47 Before I knew I was pregnant. 07:48 And the tech had asked me if there was any way 07:50 or any chance you might be pregnant, 07:52 and I told her, No." 07:54 And of course, that just made it all the worse, 07:57 more embarrassed, more reason to be embarrassed, 07:59 because I should have, you know, known. 08:02 Well, the x-rays concerned me, so I called different physicians 08:07 that I had been working with, and everyone of them... 08:11 I asked them, "If I were your wife, 08:13 what would you want me to do?" 08:14 And every single one of them said, "Abort." 08:16 They would want her to abort the pregnancy. 08:19 And that's because of the x- rays... 08:21 That's right, and none of them referred to it as a 08:24 child or your baby - it was just "that pregnancy, 08:26 get rid of THAT pregnancy." ...terminate the pregnancy... 08:30 So I promptly turned around and called the abortion clinic 08:33 and found out how much it cost how far along I had to be, 08:37 and I set an appointment. Excuse me. 08:41 And that's what I did, and when I got to the clinic, 08:46 there was a counselor there that we were supposed to talk to. 08:50 And you were 25... I was 25 and scared to death. 08:55 I... I... there's, I can't even begin to describe to you 08:59 the fear and panic - it's a very bad situation. 09:04 Well this counselor, she wasn't a Christian, 09:07 but she was sympathetic, and she assured me 09:09 that at that time, it was just a fuzz ball. 09:12 And, I was a nurse and I had studied plenty, you know, 09:16 anatomy and physiology, but it never occurred to me 09:19 to question that. 09:21 In fact, I was so afraid and so panicked, 09:25 and looking back at it, I realize it even more because 09:28 I consented to have this procedure done without 09:31 even any anesthesia... Oh wow 09:33 which was a nightmare. 09:34 The pain was so bad, I lost consciousness. 09:38 And, it was just a very bad situation. 09:43 So, after it was over, you do feel a sense of relief, 09:50 but it's very brief... for me it was very brief. 09:53 And the fact, the reality of what I had done was harrowing. 09:59 Now when you say, "The reality of what you had done," 10:01 did you have the sober moments that were then coming to you 10:07 once you got on the other side of the initial feelings of 10:12 relief, that you were starting to realize that it was a child 10:17 that you had done this to? Sure! 10:19 A pregnancy means a child. 10:20 So it wasn't a fuzz ball. No 10:22 And then as time went on, you realized 10:24 this was more than a fuzz ball. Yes 10:25 You knew too much about the body and about 10:28 the developmental process, and later on we're going to go 10:30 into the details about what really happens... Right 10:34 So it was very bad - I hated myself. 10:37 I had anger towards my husband, and neither one of us knew 10:43 what was going on. 10:45 And something died inside of me that day, 10:49 and it had an impact on me that would affect every aspect 10:53 of my life - it was profound. 10:57 So, I hated myself, and I started punishing myself. 11:05 I remember, one night, I got up and got the scissors 11:09 cut off all my hair, really short - stubs. 11:15 My husband didn't know - I don't even think he realized, 11:19 or really know he didn't realize all this had to do 11:22 with the abortion. 11:23 And, there were times when I would go into the bathroom 11:26 and I would sit on the toilet and I would take a razor 11:30 and I would run that razor up the inside of my arm. 11:32 And I can remember sitting there and just watching 11:35 the blood - I had never heard of cutting. 11:38 You know now, they talk about 11:40 kids cutting themselves and stuff. Right 11:42 And, as I look at it, I had so much pain on the inside,` 11:48 but on the outside, I was numb, 11:50 and it was like I needed to feel pain. 11:53 I needed to feel like I was still alive. 11:56 It was very strange. 11:57 And did you connect at that point, 12:01 that this - what you were doing, cutting off your hair, 12:04 and cutting your arm, that that was connected to 12:06 the abortion or did you not really get that yet? 12:09 You know, it's strange because I don't think I did completely. 12:13 I was just very, very unhappy, very insecure. 12:19 I had an incredible feeling of unworthiness. 12:22 You know, I was just dead. 12:25 I had... I was just... I had froze up. 12:28 The sad thing about that is... about that time 12:31 I found out I was pregnant again. 12:33 Now this was after my husband and I, we had been married. 12:36 This was still within the year though. 12:38 And, I already knew I was not fit to be a mother. 12:42 I was... like I said, I hated myself. 12:46 Were you still, at that point, were you still going to church, 12:50 after you had married, and now you're into 12:52 your second pregnancy, and you were going to church, 12:56 ... yes... you were listening to sermons, 12:57 and yet, evidently it still wasn't... 13:01 the sermons or whatever you were hearing 13:02 wasn't penetrating you enough to really deal with your 13:04 root issue that was simmering and destroying you. 13:09 No, I had buried it pretty deep. 13:12 You know, my husband was in dental school at the time, 13:14 and no one knew... no one knew it was very deep at that time, 13:20 and so when we - when I found out I was pregnant again, 13:25 I knew I wasn't fit to be a mother, like I said, 13:27 and so I made the appointment. 13:30 I lied about how far along I was - I wasn't quite, 13:33 you know, far along enough, but this time we did get the 13:37 anesthesia because the pain is so very bad. 13:39 So you went back to a clinic. 13:41 We went back to another clinic and the first time I had it, 13:45 I cried, I was very afraid and the physician that was there 13:50 held me - he hugged me, but after I passed out 13:53 the second time, this was the first abortion, he got mad. 13:57 Well this time, the second abortion, 14:00 I didn't have any tears, I had no emotion. 14:04 I just went in, I listened to a little speech 14:06 that you were supposed to hear, and had it done. 14:09 And at this point, you had not had any children yet, right? 14:11 No, no - No, I wasn't fit at that time, I felt I wasn't fit. 14:15 So, this baby that had been taken was taken 14:22 mercilessly from the security of my womb and my identity 14:27 was being stripped mercilessly from my soul. 14:30 I was becoming more and more of an empty existing... 14:33 you gotta exist... people around you 14:36 don't have a clue what you're carrying on inside. 14:40 So, you continue to exist... 14:44 And you told me that you reached out - you started to... 14:47 you found out something about some potential help. 14:50 I did, in fact, one of the things I struggled with 14:53 that really got a hold of me after the second abortion... 14:56 The first abortion I dealt with bulimia a little bit, 15:00 but after my second one, it got me full grip. 15:03 And bulimia, you know, is an eating disorder where you 15:06 just stuff yourself with food until you just can't 15:10 stuff anymore down and then you purge - you vomit, 15:14 you just vomit all over the place, 15:16 and it's just... it is a good feeling! 15:19 It's like you're up and out. 15:21 You know, it's like the pain coming out with cutting, 15:23 except this is the pain coming up and out... 15:27 And, at the time, I didn't realize what I needed 15:30 was a redemptive purge. 15:32 I need to be able to get up all this pain 15:35 and have the healing of a redeeming Savior, 15:38 you know, something that would come and take all my pain, 15:41 and replace it with something that was real, that would last. 15:45 Well, you know, the bulimia only just brought more shame, 15:50 and it brought more secrecy. 15:52 You have food hidden everywhere and you spend money... 15:55 And, you know, I told you my husband was in school, 15:57 we were poor. 15:58 So, to be spending money on food like that 16:01 just put more of a stress on the relationship, especially when 16:04 it's done in secrecy, so it was a very hard time. 16:10 Now here I was, a new bride, 16:12 and all the joys of being a new bride 16:15 were being taken away from me. 16:17 I couldn't sleep at night and I was very depressed. 16:20 And, I finally went to a therapist and she gave me 16:24 the sleeping pills and she gave me the pills for depression, 16:27 but she never took a history. 16:29 She never tried to find out what was at the 16:31 root of this problem which is very unfortunate. 16:36 But, so eventually I just stopped taking the pills, 16:40 kind of gave up - it was just 16:42 not really taking care of the problem. 16:44 And thank God you didn't decide 16:46 to take too many pills... Take all of them... 16:48 It was only by the grace of God that I'm sitting here... Wow 16:51 That's by God's grace. 16:54 And then, the other thing is our marriage 16:57 was just falling apart and we loved each other. 17:00 We've loved each other since college. 17:01 So, you know, we wanted help, and we went to a marriage 17:04 counselor and, after meeting with us one time, 17:08 she told us that she didn't think our 17:10 marriage could be saved which was devastating... 17:13 And she never asked us if we had ever had a miscarriage, 17:16 or stillbirth or an abortion because these type 17:21 situations can put all kinds of pressure and play havoc 17:25 with the relationship. 17:27 It's an unresolved issue that needs to be addressed. 17:29 So we left that and everything 17:34 seemed pretty - pretty dismal, yes, and it was hopeless. 17:42 There, for a while, it was very, very depressing, 17:44 and one night I remember scraping up the courage 17:46 to call a 1-800 hot line number. 17:49 I had heard an advertisement on the radio 17:52 about women who had had abortion and there was hope. 17:55 You know, it sounded good. 17:56 It sounded good. Right! 17:57 And so I wrote down that 1-800 number 17:59 and that night, I hid in the washroom by myself, 18:04 I remember exactly where I was and I called that number. 18:07 And the woman answered, and I told her my story, 18:11 and she - the first thing she said was... 18:14 "Well you know abortion is murder, don't you?" 18:18 It just took me off guard, there was no grace, no mercy, 18:22 no kindness even in that response, 18:25 so I hung up the phone. 18:26 I just totally... it just messed me up! 18:31 Well then just maybe 2 weeks later one of the girls 18:34 I worked with asked me if I wanted to come and join them 18:37 for church, so David and I, we did. 18:41 The next Sunday, we went to church with them, 18:45 and their preacher was speaking on abortion... Oh wow 18:49 And he was very loud and very animated, 18:52 and he just got louder and louder and finally 18:55 with this burst of proclamation he declared that 19:00 the Lord would not and could not forgive a woman 19:03 who had had an abortion. 19:05 And, I can remember sitting out in the congregation, 19:09 and it's like - that man confirmed right then and there 19:13 every reason I had for hating myself, and every reason 19:17 I had for thinking there was no hope for me... Wow 19:21 So, it was a long time after that 19:24 before I reached out to anybody again. 19:26 That's when I just really sucked it up, 19:30 you know, and didn't say anything. 19:32 Let's move in... we only have so much time 19:35 in this first segment - we've got more coming. 19:37 But, let's move into how you began to discover 19:41 that there was hope for you. 19:43 Well, the bulimia did continue. 19:47 You know, the life of survival continued... 19:50 Six years it was before I got help, 19:53 and I had 3 children at the time. 19:56 My husband and I were in trouble. 19:59 My sister said she had a friend she wanted me to go see, 20:02 and I did - I went to this woman and she had a ministry. 20:06 And, I really didn't know - have any particular 20:10 reason for going, but she was very kind and discerning, 20:13 and she brought me to the feet of Jesus. 20:15 And I was so beaten down, I didn't even know how to pray. 20:18 Did you talk about the abortion with her? 20:20 Not initially, she gained my confidence. 20:22 She was so kind to me, and so interested in me 20:26 that she first gained my confidence. 20:28 And she was so kind, that before I left, 20:31 I really felt compelled like I wanted to share that with her. 20:34 And I did, and she took it very serious, 20:37 you know, she didn't take it lightly. 20:41 And she called it a sin and that I needed to confess that sin, 20:47 and acknowledge it as a sin. Really... 20:50 And so she took me back to the feet of Jesus. 20:53 But that didn't make you want to run away... No 20:57 Not in that case... Absolutely not. Absolutely not. 21:00 The preacher, you know, thumping - that made me run, 21:04 and the 800 line, but not this lady. 21:06 It was like, "thank you." 21:09 So we knelt and she prayed and I prayed, 21:12 and that night, I confessed the sin of abortion. 21:15 You did... Yeah, I confessed out loud, 21:18 praying with this woman and asked Jesus to forgive me. 21:22 And it was the beginning of a journey that I wish 21:29 had been shorter, which we will get into, 21:31 but it was the first steps, and it made a huge 21:34 difference in my life. 21:35 That night, as a physical demonstration of 21:37 the Lord's healing, He took my bulimia away, 21:41 and I really believe He physically did that so that 21:44 later - months and years to come, 21:46 I would have assurance that the Lord had forgiven me 21:49 because when you still feel pain and misery, 21:52 it's easy to doubt the Lord's forgiveness, 21:55 but I knew He had forgiven me and I hung on to that. 21:59 That was the beginning... That was - yes. 22:01 So I'm just to zero in on this... 22:03 So it was the realization through the woman that 22:07 helped you with a loving heart, Absolutely! 22:10 that you had, she said, "Committed a sin," 22:13 and your acceptance of that and recognition of that, 22:17 and then actually verbally saying that to God, right? 22:22 You opened your mouth and you confessed that. I did. 22:24 Because a lot of people I know, and we're going to 22:26 talk about this more - that the issue of, 22:28 "Is abortion a sin or not," we're going to get into that 22:31 more - what's really going on with what's inside the body... 22:35 Is it really a person or is it just a fuzz ball... 22:38 But anyway, just for in your case, it was the recognition 22:42 that you had done wrong, had committed a sin 22:46 within the context of someone that cared about you, 22:49 and acknowledging that, that opened the door 22:52 for God to really work and for you to start 22:56 experiencing His forgiveness and His grace, is that right? 23:00 Yes, His power - it was an incredible life-changing night, 23:05 and even though the journey was not going to be easy 23:09 right off, it absolutely gave me courage to continue to 23:13 exist because at that point, I was exhausted, 23:17 and I did want to run away from it all. 23:18 That's why my sister sent me to her, because she knew 23:21 I was on the brink and I know the Lord put her in my life... 23:26 And I was so glad that she was secure enough that she could 23:29 say, "Call it a sin, but yet be so completely 23:34 confident in the Lord's ability to forgive... His grace. 23:39 There's a verse in Jeremiah 3:11 where God told Israel... 23:44 He said, "Only acknowledge your sin," be willing to confess that 23:49 And then He said, "I am married to you; return oh backsliding 23:54 children, says the Lord." 23:55 And that God still loved Israel, He loves us, He loves you, 23:58 He loves me, He loves us all, but we do have to... 24:00 we have to own up to what we've done and that is part of the 24:05 healing process, and if we short circuit that, 24:08 we're not really going to find the mercy and the grace, 24:11 and the love and the forgiveness of God. 24:13 And, you know, God's forgiveness is real, it's very powerful, 24:16 I've experienced it myself, it's changed my life, too. 24:19 So, wow... anymore? We have a little bit of time 24:22 ... another 5 minutes. 24:24 I just wanted to really stress the importance 24:29 that this woman had in my life because she 24:31 validated what was bringing me down, 24:35 and she validated it because she called it "sin." 24:38 You know, so many times, we try to soft-pedal 24:42 part of being sensitive... 24:43 you know, part of the trying - we don't want to hurt someone. 24:47 And certainly we need to use wisdom and tact, 24:50 and God's wisdom... 24:51 That's where the pastor and the Help-line didn't help you. 24:54 They called it "sin," but grace wasn't there. 24:58 The grace wasn't there... 25:00 And the love wasn't there, and the mercy wasn't there. 25:02 That's right, and, and... 25:03 And you ran from that... 25:05 I did, and I see more and more there is a change, 25:07 you know, that even the pro-life movement, 25:10 initially, they were just all about the baby, 25:12 all about the baby and would walk all over the mother. 25:14 And now, they're realizing the mother has value 25:18 just as much as that baby. 25:20 And so now, they are approaching both of them. 25:23 And they are making a big difference; 25:24 David Reardon has made a big impact. 25:27 Who is David Reardon? 25:29 He is one of the advocates for abortion, 25:32 not promoting abortion, but opposing abortion, 25:36 and post-abortive stress and trauma. 25:40 And I was really glad to hear him say that - - how it's not 25:43 all about the baby, it's that baby and her mother, 25:46 and even, you know, other people who are involved, 25:50 father if he is there. 25:53 So people in all camps need... we have a lot to learn. 25:57 Absolutely, that's why I'm so glad we're breaking 25:59 the silence on this issue... And, you're talking 26:01 about it well... And thank you, thank you. 26:03 Sure, we hope, our hope and prayer is that you're 26:05 testimony and Antoinette's testimony, when she comes, 26:07 that this is all just going to open up the floodgates 26:11 of emotion and people are going to break the silence. 26:15 They're going to come out, they're going to talk, 26:16 and that the talking and looking at the Bible in a balanced way, 26:20 and looking to God and to Jesus, that it's going to result 26:23 in tremendous healing and just waves of goodness 26:27 which, I mean there's a lot of women and men... 26:29 We'll talk about the men's issue too later on. Absolutely 26:30 That a lot of us are hurting, people are hurting on all sides, 26:34 and people need the Healer. 26:36 Jesus said, in the book of Luke 4:18, 26:40 Jesus said that "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me 26:44 because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel, 26:49 the good news to the poor. He has sent Me to heal 26:51 the brokenhearted and to proclaim 26:55 liberty to the captives and the recovery of sight 26:59 to those who are blind, and to proclaim the acceptable 27:03 year of the Lord." 27:05 God knows what we've done, He knows anything 27:07 that we've ever done and no matter how deep or dark 27:09 our sin and pain and guilt, Jesus is a healer. 27:14 He opens the eyes of the blind and He can heal the 27:16 brokenhearted and He can heal you in your life 27:18 whatever has ever happened to you. 27:20 And our hope is that you will discover that healing power 27:23 through the series "The Abortion Controversy" 27:27 Dianne Wagner and Antoinette Duck share 27:30 powerful life-changing information in this 27:32 13-part series "The Abortion Controversy" 27:35 To order this 6-1/2 hour DVD set for only $34.95, 27:40 call 1-800-782-4253 27:43 That's 1-800-782-4253 27:47 Or, you can write to the following: 27:53 Or, order online at whitehorsemedia.com |
Revised 2024-08-15