Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Dianne Wagner
Series Code: TAC
Program Code: TAC000002A
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00:08 Our world is full of controversy.
00:10 There is an environmental controversy, 00:12 an economic controversy, terrorism controversy, 00:15 healthcare controversy... 00:16 But one of the biggest is a controversy that a lot of 00:19 people don't think about, but it is 00:21 an abortion controversy. 00:23 It's very real and that's our topic in less than a minute, 00:26 so stay put. 00:55 Welcome to Part 2 of a 13-part series called: 00:58 "The Abortion Controversy" 00:59 We are dealing with a topic that some people 01:01 don't want to talk about, but we need to talk about it 01:04 as it's as important as it gets. 01:06 My guest is Dianne Wagoner. 01:08 She is the mother of four; she has had two abortions. 01:12 She has written a little book, a powerful book called... 01:15 "Redeemed A Gateway of Hope" 01:17 "My journey toward hope and healing from abortion" 01:21 And we're here to continue to learn from her 01:23 as she breaks the silence, and as she goes into 01:27 the trauma of abortion for post aborted women. 01:30 Dianne, it's such a blessing to have you here. Thank you! 01:34 I am so happy that you are opening your lips 01:39 and sharing your heart and telling people about this, 01:41 and I'm sure there's going to be a lot of women and men 01:43 that are going to just be so moved and so grateful 01:47 that you have the courage to come out and say the things 01:49 that you're saying. Thank you 01:51 Now just to quickly re-cap in Part 1, 01:53 you told your story about how you grew up in church. 01:57 When you were 25, you were engaged and you and your 02:02 fiancee made one mistake in the intimate arena 02:07 and you found out that you were pregnant. 02:10 And it put your life in a tailspin, 02:12 and I'm not going to go re-cap all of that, 02:15 but you had one abortion, you got married, 02:17 you went forward with your wedding day, 02:20 and then you had another abortion, 02:22 and it just caused so much pain 02:26 that we just really don't understand it. 02:28 But you do, and so you're telling us the story of the 02:32 step-by-step process of how you finally found healing 02:36 and forgiveness through the grace and the love of Jesus. 02:40 Right... So just keep on going with where you stopped. 02:43 Okay, well were I ended was, I had gotten to the point 02:47 where I confessed the sin of abortion. 02:50 I was desperate, the Lord is why I'm here today. 02:53 Suicide is not uncommon amongst post abortive women 02:58 who are traumatized by that. 03:01 So I give God the glory for that, but with that said, 03:06 I did come to the point where I was on my knees 03:09 and I confessed to the Lord the sin of abortion. 03:12 But often sin has consequence, and the consequences 03:17 need to be dealt with. 03:19 And because there has been such a silence on the 03:21 subject of abortion, it's easy to just survive 03:27 with those consequences not realizing that 03:30 the Lord is very willing and desperate, 03:32 wants to give you all of it, wants to heal you fully, 03:36 but unless someone can lead you to that, 03:38 you know, you flounder. 03:40 And it's easy to doubt, even, when you're so miserable 03:43 that the Lord even forgave you. 03:45 In fact, I have had women come to me and say, 03:47 "Why am I so miserable, if I've been forgiven?" 03:50 And the devil will just jump in right there, 03:54 And cause that woman to doubt God. 03:58 He's ruthless... He's the destroyer. 04:01 I heard somebody say, "If the devil reminds you 04:04 of your past, then remind him of his future." 04:07 Oh, that's good, I like that! 04:09 You don't want to talk to the devil 04:11 but he's going to get what's coming to him, 04:13 and he harasses us, doesn't he? He just doesn't give up! 04:16 He is the accuser of the brethren. Definitely 04:18 Well you know, the abortion, at the time, 04:21 was supposed to be a solution to a crisis. 04:25 But instead, it created a larger than life crisis 04:29 for me and for many other women - it has done that. 04:32 And, what's amazing is, the abortion advocates, 04:35 you know, they're saying that the post-abortive woman 04:40 should be feeling fine about her decision because she was 04:42 exercising her RIGHT; you know it is her body, isn't it? 04:47 And, as a Christian, we know better, don't we? Yes 04:50 In fact, you had a great text I wanted you to share that. 04:55 And there's a verse that just came right into my head 04:59 from 1 Corinthians 6:19, the Bible says... Paul says, 05:03 "Do you not know that you're body is the temple of the 05:08 Holy Spirit who is in you, who you have from God; 05:12 and you are not your own. 05:15 You were bought at a price; therefore, glorify God 05:21 in your body and in your spirit which are God's." 05:24 That's right. What a powerful text! 05:26 I LOVE that text! 05:27 People say it's my body... 05:29 No... The Bible says, Your body is God's body. 05:31 And when they say, "Well, you know, I can do with 05:34 my body what I want, and when we think about the 05:36 baby that's in there, this verse says that "we were bought 05:40 with a price," which is the price of the blood of 05:43 Jesus Christ and that applies not only to the mommy, 05:47 but to the baby, and to the father, 05:50 and to all of us. I believe that. 05:52 Jesus loves us more than we'll ever know, 05:54 and it must hurt Him more than we can ever comprehend 05:58 to look at this nightmare. 06:01 It is, I'm sure... and what's so sad 06:04 are so many people are being fed the message that 06:09 like I said, you should be feeling fine, 06:11 and if you're not, there's something wrong with you 06:14 before you had the abortion. 06:17 If you're feeling unstable, it's because you were 06:20 unstable prior to the abortion. 06:22 In fact, there are abortion advocates who 06:24 have gone so far to say that it's the woman's religion 06:29 or religiosity that causes her to have a problem. 06:35 I was really amazed about that one because history 06:39 tells us, back in the late 1800s, thousands of women 06:44 were being incarcerated because of hysteria. 06:47 Now the "French Enlightenment" at that time, the people, 06:51 they thought the problem was with religion; 06:54 again they blamed this problem on religion and religiosity. 06:58 But what it was, the evidence was there clearly that 07:02 this hysteria was due from a traumatic event 07:06 in that person's life, woman's life. 07:08 Consistently, these women had had sexual assaults against them 07:14 as children, but society and politics did not want to 07:19 investigate that and by not wanting to go there, 07:22 they didn't validate the trauma, and the victim was 07:25 completely discredited. 07:27 They lost their voice, they were not given a voice. 07:30 And sad... They were just shut up. 07:33 They were shut up and what's really sad about that... 07:36 Thousands of women today are shut up in their own asylum 07:41 because of the trauma of an abortion. 07:43 It's like a prison, isn't it? 07:44 It is, it is and once again... It's like going to jail. 07:47 It's a very dark prison. Wow... 07:50 And, once again, we don't have the social and political support 07:56 But, when I hear that, right off I think, 07:59 "Well perfect, a place for the church to go right into," 08:04 you know. Enter the church! Exactly! 08:06 That's God's plan. The Lord's ministers, right? 08:08 Well... but that's not the case. 08:13 So I want to give you some statistics here that I followed. 08:19 On the subject of abortion, prior to the 1960s, 08:24 the research and the evidence was almost without exception 08:29 in opposition to abortion. 08:32 The reason being is because of the traumatic nature 08:36 and the severe psychological threat that it was on women. 08:41 Now that was leading up until the 60s. 08:44 Something else that was interesting that was going on 08:46 about the same time in the late 1950s, 08:50 the population control advocates started getting concerned. 08:56 Too many people... Too many people, 08:57 and so they put their sights on birth control and abortion. 09:03 And large population control donors like 09:07 "The Rockefeller Foundation" started pouring money 09:10 into research with the intent 09:12 to prove the benign nature of abortion. Oh my! 09:17 Somebody needs to write a book 09:18 about that or they probably already have. 09:21 You'll have to watch the resources. Okay... series 09:24 Well by the late 1960s, The American Medical Association, 09:31 The American Psychiatric Association, 09:33 and The American Psychological Association, all three, 09:37 reversed their position in opposition to abortion 09:41 to now saying that abortion was safe. 09:44 Well, money talks, doesn't it? 09:46 It sure looks that way, it sure looks that way. 09:49 So and of course we know that in 1973 was the 09:51 Roe v. Wade date which we'll go into more later, 09:54 but this is when the abortion became legal. 09:59 And, it wasn't that long by the late 1970s, 10:05 just 7 years later, women started realizing 10:08 they were having effects by that decision. 10:10 Women who had been hurt maybe physically 10:13 or emotionally, psychologically, started realizing this, 10:18 and they started banding together into support groups. 10:21 And what kind of effects? What were the effects? 10:24 Grief, hating myself, anger, depressions, sleeplessness; 10:30 you know, all these things... Promiscuity, hopelessness, 10:33 just running off the deep end, alcoholism... 10:35 what that part of that too? A lot of that. 10:37 But these women were starting to band together 10:39 and by coming together and sharing their stories, 10:42 they were validating their trauma. 10:44 They were realizing that, "Yes, indeed, this abortion 10:47 was a traumatic event." 10:50 And it was having negative consequences on their lives. 10:52 And the first group was called, "WEBA"... it was an acronym 10:56 for" Women Exploited by Abortion." 10:59 And that wasn't just women that were... 11:02 It wasn't just because they grew up in church. 11:04 No, no... And so they were, you know, 11:06 you know what I mean, it was not just a... 11:08 No, this was out there, it wasn't a church thing. 11:12 They are real consequences. 11:13 Absolutely that you can't deny, 11:15 whether you've gone to church all your life or not, 11:17 you know, when you can't sleep and you're miserable, 11:20 and you hate yourself and you grieve and you're crying 11:22 uncontrollably and you don't understand why... 11:24 You know... you know something is going on. 11:27 Well, it was really interesting because this organization "WEBA" 11:31 in one year, had chapters in every one of the states. 11:35 Each state had a chapter, it exploded. 11:39 That, in itself, says something. 11:41 And in fact, a lot of the post-abortion ministries 11:44 we have today stem from that original group of women 11:49 within the WEBA organization 11:51 which I thought was pretty fascinating. 11:53 But now during this time, there was a small group 11:58 of psychologists that were treating women here and there, 12:03 and they started recognizing that the women that they 12:08 were seeing that had a history of abortion, or starting to 12:12 show clusters of symptoms that 12:21 were close to the post-traumatic stress disorder. 12:24 For those that came out of the war... Yeah, right! 12:26 After the Vietnam war when they established that 12:29 post-traumatic stress disorder. 12:30 And, Vincent Rue was the first one who actually 12:34 named "post-abortion syndrome" 12:36 because as a variant of the post-traumatic stress disorder.. 12:40 because there were so many women showing these symptoms 12:46 of the trauma. 12:49 Well one other thing that did happen at that time, 12:52 "The Elliot Institute" was established, 12:53 and The Elliot Institute has done a lot of research 12:57 into post-abortion trauma. 13:00 So there was a movement in the end of 70s into the middle 80s 13:04 there was this movement. 13:05 Well of course, you know, The American Medical Association 13:09 wanted to call it a myth, 13:10 and The American Psychiatric Organization - they wanted to 13:14 squelch any evidence of the post-abortion syndrome. 13:18 I imagine Rockefeller wasn't happy. 13:20 Probably not! 13:23 So even though they were opposed to this, 13:26 you couldn't deny this accumulation of 13:30 evidence that was starting to appear in all these women. 13:32 This pool of pain was coming up - bubbling up to the surface. 13:36 Exactly - the grief, the self-hatred, the hopelessness, 13:42 helplessness, anger; like I said, 13:45 uncontrollable crying... And that leads people 13:47 to plunge deeper, like I said, promiscuity, alcoholism. 13:49 Once you have no hope, you just take the plunge. 13:53 Yeah, it's self-degrading behavior like the cutting, 13:57 it's drug abuse, and it affects relationships, 14:02 marital relationships, family... you know, your ability 14:06 to bond with your children that you may have later. 14:11 It really is just catastrophic, the effect that this has... 14:15 and you can see why these people would run to 14:20 promiscuity, alcohol or drug abuse if they're that desperate, 14:25 or suicidal tendencies, that's right, 14:27 that's exactly one of them. 14:29 And, it was interesting to me because it is a moral issue 14:33 whether we realize it... 14:37 We may not call it religious or a religion, 14:41 but there's a moral seed in each one of us... 14:44 It's a conscience issue... YES because we're made 14:48 in the image of God. Exactly! 14:50 And when we go against what's right, 14:52 we suffer for that. That's right! 14:53 There's a verse that we've talked about 14:55 a little bit and I just want to read this. 14:57 I think it fits... right here, it's in James 1:14,16 15:00 It says, "Each one is tempted when he is drawn away 15:04 by his own desires and enticed." 15:07 So I think that applies to sexual sin and many others, 15:09 but, you know, people are tempted, 15:11 their desires, they're enticed. 15:12 And then it says, "Then when desire has conceived, 15:15 ... and it's interesting the word "conceived" is used here, 15:18 ... then it gives birth to sin, and sin when it is full-grown, 15:23 brings forth death. 15:25 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren." 15:28 So here's a sequence, a train of consequences 15:32 from the desire and temptation, and then the sin, 15:37 and then it growing, and then eventually, 15:39 bringing forth death. 15:40 There's just no way around it, when we don't follow 15:44 God's original plan, revealed in the Garden of Eden 15:47 and in Scripture, we will suffer for that... 15:50 And you're just giving us the stats that those who have had 15:54 abortions, there is trauma. A lot of trauma. 15:59 The LA Times poll that I found, said 74% of women who 16:04 have had abortions believe that it was morally wrong. 16:07 And another study shows that 70% of women who have had 16:12 abortions believe that they were killing a human being, 16:15 and that it was morally wrong. That's huge! 16:18 And that was the LA Times? 16:20 The first one was, the 74%. 16:23 You know, that just shows to you, we've got a crisis 16:26 going on and when I think of that, like I said earlier, 16:31 what better place than the church? 16:32 You know, here we have the healing balm of Gilead 16:38 right in our hands and I'm afraid we're not even using it. 16:42 In fact, I had written a note to myself, 16:44 and I want to make sure I get it right... 16:46 if we have time, are we doing all right? 16:48 Yes, we're doing okay in minutes. 16:50 I don't think we can remain silent on this issue any longer. 16:53 I think we are breaking the silence on this, 16:57 and I think there are people that are hurting, 16:59 and they need to hear this. 17:02 You know, we're holding the balm of Gilead, 17:06 and we're not even using it. 17:09 And I'm afraid that... how can we make the nations 17:12 around us... I have to read it because I love this 17:15 and even if I have to read it. Sure 17:17 "How can we make the nations around us jealous for our God 17:20 if we do not put our trust in Him, 17:22 and let Him show us what He can do for us. 17:25 And by showing us what He can do for us, 17:27 the nations around us will see and watch. 17:31 We cannot encourage others to trust God 17:34 if we don't ourselves, can we?" 17:37 You know I've always been told to trust God 17:39 though the heavens fall and I like that... 17:42 trust God though the heavens fall. 17:44 Are we willing to say, "Trust God with this pregnancy?" 17:48 You know? 17:49 A lot of times, it takes a degree of responsibility 17:55 when you want to encourage someone not 17:57 to have an abortion. 17:59 It's easy to just say, "Oh, I'll pray you'll have clothes, 18:02 I see you're naked, or I'll pray you have food 18:05 because I see you're hungry. 18:06 You know, versus going out and taking clothes 18:10 or taking food. 18:11 Well just like a young woman who is in a very scary 18:14 bad pregnancy... You know we can say, 18:16 "Oh don't abort that baby, that would be killing... 18:19 I'll be praying for you." 18:20 Versus... "Honey, do you have a place to go, 18:24 are you seen - do you have medical attention?" 18:28 You know, really taking that person... 18:30 that's when we're the instrument of the Lord. 18:32 And that's where the rubber meets the road. 18:34 That's where like James says, "Don't just love in 18:37 word and tongue, but in deed and truth." 18:40 And that's what the church is called to do, 18:41 and may God help us to really 18:43 reach out to those... To see that! 18:45 Right and as we know, I mean you mentioned that 18:48 the majority of abortions occur in the age range of 18-24. 18:54 You have, young girls and young boys, teenagers that are 18:57 out there experimenting and they are not ready 18:59 for a family; they are not ready to get married, 19:02 and they find themselves pregnant - the women do. 19:05 And sometimes they're from mixed up homes... that's right. 19:08 And it's the convenient thing to do just to 19:12 "terminate the pregnancy." 19:15 But we really need to somehow educate people to understand 19:19 Absolutely... that it's more than just a thing 19:22 inside the body and we'll talk more about that later. 19:25 Right, you'll find out I'm a very big advocate for education. 19:28 Education and instruction, and love and teaching, 19:31 and we really can't solve this problem, 19:34 as far as the world goes, but we can hope to 19:37 make a difference and that's where, like you said, 19:39 the church comes in to educate, to come alongside 19:42 if people have made a mistake; God still loves them, 19:44 and let's not make a second mistake and take the life 19:47 of an innocent child, and even if adoption 19:50 is really an option or the only option, 19:54 or at least the best option, let's find an option, 19:58 and let's have the church come close to people 20:02 and pray for them and help them to work through this. 20:05 And by doing that, you are preserving that young woman's 20:09 dignity... And you're protecting her 20:12 from a lot of pain. That's right 20:14 Like you said, all these women and you went through. Wow 20:17 That's right, that's right! 20:19 I have one more... if I can read it. 20:21 Sure, we still have time. Okay 20:22 "If God abhors one sin above another 20:25 of which His people are guilty, it is doing nothing 20:29 in case of an emergency. 20:31 Indifference and neutrality in a religious crisis 20:35 is regarded of God as a grievous crime, 20:38 and equal to the very worst type of hostility against God." 20:43 That really hit me when I heard that because 20:46 it's so easy to condemn someone who has taken 20:50 the life of an innocent child, but what about the 20:54 life of an innocent unborn, you know. 20:57 Are we going to remain neutral? 21:00 Are we going to remain silent? 21:02 And if we value that child and we value that child's mother, 21:06 it only seems right that we would want to step in. 21:09 Yes, and one of the issues we'll get into later in the series is 21:13 I think a lot of rationalizing is going on... That's true 21:18 and the rationalization has to do with "it's really not a 21:22 child; it's really not a full, it's not a person yet 21:27 because it's just in this early developmental stage" 21:30 and there are certain scriptures that are sometimes used 21:33 to support that idea and we'll look at those verses later, 21:36 but when you really take a close look biblically 21:39 and scientifically, which we will do, it's a little 21:44 ... it's a little person in there. 21:46 It's just not a fully developed person, 21:49 but it's a little person, and as you're sharing the 21:52 stats show that women, a large percentage of women 21:56 who have had abortions, they know that they've done 22:00 something horrific. That's right 22:02 And if it wasn't wrong, then why would all these 22:06 women be having such terrible consequences? 22:10 Why the trauma? Yeah, why the trauma? 22:12 That's right, and I think that's why it's so important 22:15 to educate ourselves about the post-abortion trauma 22:19 because as we understand even the behavior of a friend 22:23 who may have had... 22:24 You know, as we appreciate and understand the trauma 22:27 of abortion, we'll know how to minister to 22:32 a post-abortive woman or man. 22:34 We'll understand the behavior. 22:36 I know I've seen this with men who have married a woman 22:40 who has had an abortion in their past. 22:41 You know, I'll mention one individual that I know... 22:48 He read my story and he wrote me a letter. 22:52 He read it in your book... 22:53 I wrote it in there, and he thanked me. 22:56 He goes, "You know, I understand my wife better now, 23:00 and her behavior." 23:02 Because he could see the link you know, between the 23:06 self-hatred. 23:07 I remember sitting in church... 23:09 There were times when I would just CRY 23:12 and I would think... "Oh, my pastor is going 23:14 think I've lost my mind." 23:16 But it was that uncontrollable crying... 23:18 It was just on the list... when I read the list 23:22 of the things women suffer with, it was like "that's me." 23:25 And then I read down further and I was... "that is me, 23:28 I've suffered with that." 23:29 And then when I read the stories of other women 23:31 and their experiences after their abortion, 23:35 and different things that women have suffered from, 23:41 it's amazing, but I can remember sitting in church 23:44 thinking, "I am crying and I don't know why I'm crying, 23:47 I'm just out of control." 23:49 And it was all that... all that garbage 23:52 and all that trauma. And that was before 23:54 you met the lady that you talked about the last time. Oh! 23:56 That was before the healing. Just before the healing, right. 23:59 Yes, I was just a MESS! 24:00 Even the sermons you were hearing, they weren't 24:02 they weren't really reaching you. No... 24:05 I guess, because it wasn't going deep enough or 24:07 it wasn't dealing with your issue. 24:09 Right, I wouldn't want to say that the sermons were bad, 24:12 you know, not at all. 24:14 It's just that I had removed myself so much, in that area 24:20 from people, that it just wasn't talked about, 24:24 it wasn't addressed, it was stuffed 24:26 and it just wasn't a part... You were in a daze. 24:28 So I guess you were numb and you were crying 24:31 uncontrollably and you were just... like you said, 24:35 you were a mess. Yeah, I was. 24:36 And so I appreciate the opportunity to address the 24:40 abortion trauma because we cannot depend on society, 24:44 and we cannot depend on politics or government, 24:47 but we should be able to depend on the church, 24:50 you know, to be there. 24:52 Right, and the church shouldn't be influenced 24:55 by Rockefeller money to develop research 25:01 that goes away from the facts. That's right 25:04 The facts of Scripture and the facts of what really happens 25:07 when women make that choice. That's right, that's right 25:11 So I would encourage women, if they're just starting this 25:14 series, to please watch it through, watch it to the end, 25:18 and men too, of course. 25:20 Anybody that would have any kind of concern or burden. 25:24 Right, we have a program coming on the men issue. 25:26 We have a program coming on, "is the fetus a person" issue. 25:29 We have one on the biblical evidence, the scientific 25:32 evidence; we have a historical perspective, 25:36 and then we're going to go deeper into the healing, 25:39 not only what you experienced when that gentle woman 25:46 gave you the counsel, that she gave you, as you described 25:48 in the last program, but also the retreat that you 25:51 went to and the deeper healing that occurred, 25:53 and there's just a lot involved in this. 25:55 Yeah, I'm very excited, I'm glad people are watching 25:58 and I want to encourage them to continue to watch. 26:01 Well, thank you so much, and I'm going to finish 26:04 what the text that I believe is one of the motto verses 26:07 for "Mafgia," did I say that right? 26:10 "Mafgia," that's your ministry, along with Antoinette, 26:13 and she's coming soon. 26:15 And that is in Hosea 2:14, 15, God said that He will 26:23 speak comfort to His people. 26:26 And then verse 15 says, "I will give her, 26:29 her vineyards from there and the Valley of Achor 26:33 as a door of hope." 26:35 And Achor can also be translated "trouble." 26:38 The Valley of Trouble. 26:39 God will turn the Valley of Trouble into a door 26:43 of hope and she shall sing there." 26:47 And that shows that God can take trouble. 26:49 He can take trauma, He can take disaster, 26:52 and He can turn it around, and He can bring good out of it. 26:56 He is an amazing God, He is a powerful God, 26:59 He's a loving God, He's a healing God, 27:01 and, again, there's no trauma that you can ever go through 27:05 that God can't turn it around, heal you, and give you 27:08 a testimony so that you can sing... you can sing forever 27:12 because of the love and the mercy and the goodness of Jesus. 27:17 And that is the Jesus that we want you to know 27:21 as a result of watching all of these programs 27:24 on the Abortion Controversy. 27:26 May God help us all. |
Revised 2024-08-15