Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Antionette Duck
Series Code: TAC
Program Code: TAC000003A
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00:08 Have you ever met a woman whose mother planned to abort her,
00:12 but changed her mind? 00:13 You're about to meet that person next on 00:15 "The Abortion Controversy" 00:44 Welcome to Part 3 of "The Abortion Controversy Series" 00:48 This is a 13-Part series and in Parts 1 and 2, 00:51 I interviewed Dianne Wagoner, a lady who has had 00:54 2 abortions who struggled terribly as a result 00:58 of the guilt and the pain, but who found healing 01:01 through the love and the mercy, and the grace of God. 01:04 And for Part 3, I'm going to interview Antionette Duck. 01:09 She is an attorney from Georgia. 01:11 She, unlike Dianne, she never had an abortion, 01:15 but she was almost aborted, but her mother changed 01:18 her mind and she is here today, 01:20 and she has quite a story a you! 01:22 So, Antionette, I'll shake your hand as I did Dianne's. 01:27 Glad you're here so much... Thank you 01:29 It's just wonderful, and I have heard your story 01:32 on the internet really, but we've only really met today, 01:35 and I told Dianne that what really crossed me over the line, 01:41 after I had been wrestling with whether we should do 01:43 something on this topic, was hearing your story 01:46 and her story in a hotel, in Oregon on Saturday night, 01:50 out of my iPhone. 01:52 I heard it from a website, and it just... I tell you, 01:56 it just really moved me and that's what brought me 02:00 over the line and I said, we've got to bring you in here, 02:04 we've got to talk to you, we've got to hear more. 02:06 So, it's just great to be here with you. 02:09 I have your little book, "Mafgia"... "gee-a" 02:16 It's always... it's another tongue-twister... "Maf-gee-a." 02:19 Lift up your voice... This is your little book that 02:21 deals with abortion and I've heard a rumor that 02:24 Georgia attorneys are pretty passionate. 02:28 Well, I hope so. 02:30 And I know you are too, so wherever you want to start, 02:33 just start and just tell us your story... Okay 02:37 And, let's just go from there. 02:39 When my mother became pregnant back in 1981, 02:44 she was in an extremely abusive marriage. 02:47 Her husband, my biological father, was addicted to drugs 02:51 and alcohol and the marriage could be quite frightening, 02:56 it could be quite scary and very violent. 02:58 And, when she began to experience morning sickness, 03:02 she did not want to bring a child into that relationship. 03:08 She wasn't a believer and didn't want to bring 03:10 a child into that relationship. 03:11 And she said, "I am not going to stay 03:14 in this relationship, and I'm certainly not going to 03:15 bring a baby into this relationship." 03:17 And so what she decided to do is, she was going to 03:21 save up money; she was going to go back home to California 03:24 because abortions were actually free back in 1981 03:27 in California at that time, and she was going to 03:30 save up her money, get on a bus, go back to California, 03:32 and be done with this relationship. 03:34 Well, she started to secretly give money to a friend 03:39 for safekeeping and she worked over a period of time, 03:44 gave money to her friend and when she thought 03:46 she had enough and she was ready to go back to California, 03:49 she went to her friend and asked for her money. 03:52 And her friend said, "What money, I spent all of it." 03:56 Spent it all... It's gone! 03:58 So she never got the money to go to California? 04:00 She never got the money and she had no way out. 04:05 She had no options, she didn't know what to do. 04:08 Well, my biological father knew that she was 04:11 experiencing morning sickness, and he cut out this ad 04:15 in the paper and the ad said, 04:17 "Hey, I'm alive - voice of the pre-born," 04:21 Columbus, Georgia, because that's where she 04:22 was living at the time, and it was an advertisement 04:26 from a Baptist Church, and they were running a 04:28 Crisis Pregnancy Center for Women out of the church, 04:32 back in 1981 and so she called, she made an appointment. 04:37 She was hoping actually that they would help her 04:39 have an abortion and when she went in and asked, 04:43 "Will you help me have the abortion?" 04:44 they said, "No, but will you come back for some counseling?" 04:47 So, she goes back for counseling and when she went in for 04:50 counseling, she picked up a magazine, when she was in 04:53 her session and back in 1965, a photographer had taken 05:00 photos of the baby in utero and it was the first time, 05:04 back in 1965, that was the first time the world had 05:06 seen pictures of the baby in utero, 05:09 and it showed all these different stages of development 05:11 from just throughout the gestational period. 05:14 And, she saw fingers and toes and arms and legs, 05:17 and hands and feet. 05:19 She had no idea that the baby inside of her was alive. 05:22 I'm not sure you've seen that picture of a little 05:25 hand coming out... Yes! 05:27 It was "Life Magazine" cover with the little hand 05:28 coming out... showing a surgery - right, 05:31 and the little hand grabbed the hand of the surgeon 05:34 and that picture went around the world. Yes 05:38 And just showed that there's somebody in there! 05:40 Yes, absolutely! 05:42 Well, and she had thought the baby was just 05:43 a mass of protoplasm, that's what she had been taught. 05:45 It's literally just a mass of protoplasm, 05:47 so when she saw the formation, when she saw 05:52 not just how it developed, but that it was a human being 05:54 inside, the Holy Spirit just fell on her and she knew 06:00 no matter what happens, 06:01 I'm going through it with this baby. Wow 06:04 Well, that baby was me, and so over 30 years later, 06:07 here I am because other people interceded for my life. 06:14 They believed in her value, they believed in my value, 06:16 and they weren't willing just to stay silent, 06:20 and that was the story of my beginning. 06:24 And you're still close with your mother today, right? Yes! 06:27 Because she's still alive and you have good contact 06:30 and talk on the phone and how often do you see her? 06:32 Yes, well as often... Atlanta isn't too far away from 06:36 Columbus and so whenever I'm able to get down there... 06:38 I have 3 brothers as well; all who are adopted. 06:41 Their mothers were all in crisis pregnancy 06:44 situations the way that my mother was, 06:45 and they were adopted into our family. 06:47 And I'm assuming your mother knows that you're here 06:49 today... right? Oh yes! 06:50 So she's probably praying 06:52 so we'll give her a good report when this is over. 06:54 Yes, absolutely! Very excited, very excited about it. 06:57 Now tell me a little bit about your 06:58 church background as you were growing up. 07:01 Sure, sure... Or any church background. 07:03 I'll preface it by saying that what I want people to 07:07 understand is... You know, there are many concerns 07:10 about women who are in these crisis pregnancy situations, 07:13 and their circumstances being terrible, 07:16 and in my story, it's important to know that our circumstances 07:21 did not change, and so when my mother chose 07:26 to have me and raise me and love me so very much, 07:29 but our circumstances didn't change. 07:30 My father was still my father, 07:33 and life could be very frightening 07:36 and it could be very scary, and I began to... 07:44 I got very angry; I was hurt; 07:48 I was wounded and became very angry as a child 07:53 that the Lord would allow me to live life in this way. 07:58 I really... I got to a point where I thought 08:02 "You owe me... I shouldn't have to... 08:05 I'm angry at You that I had this childhood." 08:07 And I was... How old were you 08:09 when you were thinking those thoughts? 08:11 I think it was sort of a progression. 08:13 I don't know that I ever... Well, may I did 08:15 say it out loud, I made a decision 08:18 to accept the Lord at 8. 08:19 I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church. 08:22 The church that had started the Crisis Pregnancy Center, 08:25 they just embraced my mother and I. 08:28 They literally wrapped their arms around us, 08:30 and loved us so very much. 08:33 They didn't just love us in the crisis pregnancy, 08:35 they loved us throughout my growing up there. 08:41 But the anger and the resentment, the ingratitude, 08:45 really did take root in my heart, 08:46 and it was a process... it didn't happen overnight 08:50 because I loved... 08:52 And that's because your home was not... Right 08:54 Things weren't together and you were having problems and... 08:57 And my father was very wounded. 08:59 He had been very wounded as a child, 09:00 and so there was a whole history 09:03 of why he was the way that he was. 09:05 And I loved him so deeply, so very much. 09:08 Is he still alive? He is, yes. 09:09 You still have relations, you talk to him? 09:12 I pray for him and I've reached out to him. 09:14 We don't have much communication. 09:20 Even though I loved him though, 09:21 I really struggled with feelings of anger and hatred 09:24 that my life had been the way that it was, 09:26 and I found myself, as I got older, it was in that 09:31 mindset of just an ingratitude, I couldn't see 09:36 all that the Lord had saved me from. 09:38 I couldn't see all that He had spared me from. 09:41 I couldn't see past my anger, past the resentment, 09:43 past the pain and it was in that mindset that I began to date. 09:47 It was in that mindset that I began to experiment 09:51 sexually and I made many mistakes 09:56 that were just extremely regrettable. 09:59 What's phenomenal and so reflective 10:05 of who the Lord really is though, 10:07 is that He didn't leave me there. 10:09 He remembered me in my darkness. 10:13 And, He came for me, He rescued me. 10:16 You had asked me earlier what my favorite verse was, 10:19 and one of them is Micah 7:8 where it says that, 10:24 "Do not rejoice over me my enemy, when I fall, I will rise" 10:29 I know that verse... When I sit in darkness, 10:31 the Lord will be a light to me." 10:33 And that is genuinely true of my experience, 10:37 my relationship with the Lord. 10:39 So He was with you in the darkness of the womb, 10:43 and He brought you out! He rescued me again. 10:45 And He was with you in the darkness from 8 and onward, 10:50 and even before that and you know that no matter 10:53 what you've been through, He's been there. Absolutely! 10:56 And that's an important message for the world... 10:58 is that God doesn't leave us very easily... Yes, absolutely. 11:03 And it was after I came back to the Lord that 11:07 my mother actually had passed on some information about 11:10 the Sabbath day; I was raised in a Sunday-keeping church, 11:13 and had never really studied the Sabbath day, 11:18 and when she gave me that information, 11:20 I really began to study it and read up on it. 11:23 And as I did, I just became convinced that 11:26 I needed to keep Sabbath. 11:28 And so, I actually started worshipping in a 11:32 Messianic Synagogue which was a tremendous amount of fun 11:35 because there's a lot of celebration there, 11:37 in the singing and the love, the love of the Word. 11:42 So that's a Jewish congregation that believes in Jesus... Yes 11:46 I have a Jewish background, not very secular, 11:48 but became a believer when I was 20 years old. 11:51 And I loved it, I absolutely loved it. 11:54 But I was still seeking in terms of where my ultimate 12:00 church home would be. 12:01 And my mom, actually, had suggested, 12:03 "Why don't you consider the Seventh-day Adventist Church?" 12:06 And I said, "Okay," so I went to a couple; 12:11 I was in law school at the time, and I started searching 12:13 around when I was in Virginia Beach, up there. 12:16 And I started attending the "Chesapeake Church." 12:21 "Chesapeake Seventh-day Adventist Church" 12:22 in Virginia Beach, and I fell in love with the church, 12:26 and the people there. 12:27 They were real - just like me. 12:31 They were working out their salvation - just like I was, 12:36 but they were REAL in terms that they loved the Lord. 12:41 And they were committed to Him and they wanted to 12:45 spend forever with Him, and they just embraced me. 12:48 It was phenomenal the way that they literally 12:51 just embraced me. 12:53 Was it you and your mom going to the church? 12:54 No, I was in Virginia, yes, so she was still in Georgia, 12:57 and I was just going on my own. 13:00 She was attending church down in Georgia. 13:05 When I... I studied for about 1-1/2 years while I was in 13:09 law school... just I began just soaking up all of the different 13:13 information about - just the word and had really 13:21 became convinced that this is where I needed to be, 13:25 the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 13:26 And how long ago was that, what year are we talking about? 13:28 That was about 2009, I was just about to finish law school. 13:34 One afternoon, I had wondered what the 13:38 church's position on abortion was. 13:40 I had no ever actually looked or investigated it at all. 13:44 And when I read what the position was, 13:49 I really struggled. 13:52 There were inconsistencies there that I really 13:56 struggled with, given my background, given my heart 14:00 for the unborn; given my desire to see our church 14:04 be one that magnifies the Lord and glorifies the Lord 14:08 is the standard bearer in every possible way. 14:12 And did you have any kind of a ministry for the unborn 14:17 or for the value of life or anything like that prior to 14:20 your checking out the Adventists? 14:22 No, no not at all. 14:24 I was just a law student and I was thinking about the bar, 14:26 I need to pass it to become a lawyer. 14:29 And you wanted to know Jesus better? Yes, yes! 14:31 And you learned about the Sabbath, and you showed up, 14:33 you liked the people, and loved the people 14:35 I did, I loved the people. Yes 14:37 This though, I really sort of had a crisis of faith 14:41 because I loved this church, I knew that it was like 14:44 coming home and if I couldn't be a part of this church, 14:49 there really wasn't anywhere else for me to go. 14:51 You're a member of the Adventist Church now. Yes 14:53 Now, were you going through the struggle before 14:55 you became a member or after you became a member? Yes 14:57 Before I became a member, yes. 15:00 So this was a struggle for you to choose to continue 15:04 to go forward and to be a member. Yes 15:07 Because you found out that there are, I think, probably 15:10 the way to say would be, there are some pro-choice 15:13 elements within the church. 15:15 How strong they are, I don't know. 15:17 I've been researching this topic for some time, 15:20 and I'm sure there's a lot of people, as in any church, 15:23 you know, it's a mixture of different people 15:26 feeling different ways, but you discovered 15:29 that there was a pro-choice element, 15:31 and you wrestled with that. 15:32 I did, yes. 15:35 My last Sabbath in Virginia Beach, 15:37 before I was about to go back to Georgia 15:39 to study for the bar, there was a visiting couple 15:42 who was at church, and over Sabbath potluck, 15:45 I was just explaining my dilemma really seeking out 15:48 counsel from various people, and the wife of the 15:54 couple said, "You don't not join, you join, 15:58 and you seek to change it." 16:02 That's good advice. Absolutely! 16:04 I think that's great advice. 16:05 And in September of 2010, that year, 16:07 I became a member of the Adventist Church, 16:09 and the next year, early 2011, the "Mafgia" began. 16:15 Okay, now tell us more, "Mafgia." Yeah Mafgia. 16:19 Mafgia is a Hebrew word and it means, "intercessor." 16:23 And it comes from the verse, Isaiah 59:16. 16:26 Okay, I'm going to read that verse, unless you want to 16:28 read it - unless you have it. Oh, go ahead. 16:30 You can keep talking about it and I'll find it. 16:31 Isaiah what - 59:16, 59:16 okay. 16:36 All right let's see... 59:16, it's talking about God looking 16:41 down on the earth. He saw that there was no man, 16:45 and wondered that there was no intercessor. 16:48 Therefore, His own arm brought salvation for Him 16:51 and His own righteousness, it sustained Him. Yes 16:54 So that's your motto verse. Yes, yes. 16:57 And so "Mafgia," that comes from.. is it "gia?" "Maf-gee-a" 17:01 "Mafgia" and that's from the word "intercessor" 17:03 right here in this text... Intercessor right there. Okay 17:05 We are committed as an organization to interceding 17:09 for the value, for the sanctity of human life 17:11 from conception to natural death. 17:13 From our very beginning to natural death. 17:15 And we're also committed to interceding as you've 17:18 heard in Dianne's story, for the reconciliation 17:21 and redemption for women and for men 17:24 who have experienced the tragedy of an abortion. 17:27 It's very much a holistic view. 17:31 We don't just think the unborn is valuable, 17:34 or just think the woman in crisis is valuable, 17:37 we think life, human life, all of humanity 17:41 bears the image of the Lord, and are extremely valuable 17:44 as established by the Lord. 17:46 And so that is truly who we are seeking 17:48 to reach and minister to. 17:50 And we'll get into this more later. 17:52 We have 10 more programs to do, 17:55 and we're going to get into one of the biggest issues 17:57 from what I've observed, and just in the last 17:59 few months I've been studying this and that is when is 18:01 a person a person? 18:04 There is conception to birth, and there are some 18:08 that believe that as you're developing, you're really not 18:11 fully a person yet until you take a breath when you come out. 18:16 And there are certain verses that are quoted to 18:20 support that and we'll look at that. 18:21 We'll look at those verses because this really... 18:23 I mean, this is a big issue. Yes 18:25 Was it really you... Were you you only when you 18:29 popped out? Or were you you when 18:32 you were first conceived? 18:34 That's part of the controversy that we'll have to 18:37 explore... Yes but go on... 18:40 Well what's been really incredible is the impact. 18:43 Since Mafgia began, the response has been profound, 18:49 and the themes that we've encountered... 18:51 I encountered in the beginning and then now that Dianne 18:53 has come onboard as my partner in ministry. 18:56 The themes that we've encountered together 18:57 have been tremendous. 19:00 The first would be the frequency of abortion. 19:03 The number of abortions that are happening; 19:06 women are experiencing; 19:07 statistically, we know that's true, but literally 19:10 every single time, I would say virtually every single time 19:13 I've spoken about this, and all of the audiences 19:17 have been church audiences. 19:19 We haven't spoken in secular environments, 19:21 or just secular audiences. 19:23 Woman, after woman, after woman, after woman has had an abortion, 19:27 and we see it's happening generationally 19:30 where a woman and her mother or daughters 19:33 will have had an abortion. 19:35 It's happening within family and extended family unit 19:38 where a woman and her sister and cousin and aunt 19:41 will have also had an abortion. 19:43 The frequency of abortion, the way that it's affecting 19:47 women is phenomenal. 19:49 Statistically, it's over one-third of all women will have 19:57 experienced an abortion by the time she reaches age 45, 20:00 and that's in the church, 20:01 and out of the church, that's all churches. 20:03 It's not specific to denomination. 20:04 And Dianne mentioned the statistics, 20:06 she, based on her research, 20:07 and I'm assuming yours, she said, 20:09 "Somewhere around 45 million abortions are occurring 20:13 worldwide." 20:14 She mentioned that since 1973 to 2011, 20:18 it's approximately 53 million and they were speculating 20:21 based on the numbers that by today, 20:23 it's somewhere around 57 million, 20:25 but that's just in the United States. 20:27 And you look at around the world and we're 20:30 I mean, we're dealing with a topic that is just incredible, 20:35 and I have children and that's another reason 20:38 why I wanted to be a part of this series, 20:41 and wanted to learn about it, 20:42 it's because I love kids. 20:44 I just really... I love Abby, I love Seth, 20:46 and there's so much to this that I think 20:50 it's worth taking it out of the closet, 20:54 and looking at it and going deeper into the Bible 20:57 to say what does the Bible say and listen to 21:00 stories like yours... it's incredible. Right 21:02 The second thing that we've seen is, 21:04 we've actually had a lot of people really 21:06 wonder why isn't it talked about more 21:09 when it's affecting so many people, 21:11 why aren't resources there; why is it something that 21:15 we're not dealing with? 21:16 And that there's been so much gratitude expressing 21:21 "thank you, thank you, I'm so glad someone - finally." 21:25 And that's been just incredibly profound for us, 21:29 as a ministry team. 21:31 The third theme that we've really seen is the 21:34 condemnation and shame that people are carrying 21:38 10, 20, 30 years later, when they haven't found 21:42 freedom and forgiveness at the cross. 21:45 And, that is not the way we were meant to live. 21:48 The Lord died to set us free so that we could experience 21:53 freedom and life and wholeness here. 21:56 And, we believe that He died so that we could walk 22:01 in His redemptive grace. 22:03 The question is: "Who is going to reach these people?" 22:06 Well, that's us, that's our job. 22:10 And if we're not speaking, who is going to speak to them 22:15 because the world is ready and waiting to speak to them. 22:19 And isn't it that it's the mission of God's people 22:23 to try to help people to know Jesus, 22:26 and to deal with the issues that are deep in their hearts 22:29 where they are hurting and if you have 57 million in America, 22:34 and 45 million around the world every year, 22:38 there is just a huge, I don't know exactly what the word is, 22:43 it's not an untapped resource, it's a vast pool 22:49 of pain that needs to be reached out to 22:54 with loving hands and compassionate hearts. 22:57 And that's what you're doing, that's what your life is about. 23:00 You have a life, you're thankful that you're alive, 23:03 and you want to help people as much as possible 23:05 and that's what we want to do too, that's what 23:06 "White Horse Media" is all about ...that's why you're here. 23:08 Well and you know, the primary difference between 23:11 my story and Dianne's story, is that people believe, 23:13 not just in my value, but in the value of my mother. 23:16 They believed in her value as a woman in crisis. 23:20 And, it was through their intercession, 23:24 through their pleading that my life was spared. 23:26 And that's what we have the opportunity to do, 23:28 not just to intercede for the life of the child, 23:31 not just to intercede for the life of the woman, 23:33 but to intercede for both. 23:35 That's why we're seeking or that's why we're called 23:40 to share what is true. 23:41 We're all equal at the foot of the Cross, 23:43 every single one of us, and we're called 23:46 to seek out truth and share what is true 23:48 so that others can be set free. 23:50 I'm set free because of the truth that the Lord 23:53 came to die and set me free, that's what sets all of us free. 23:56 And, that's what we have the opportunity to do through 24:01 this message - to point people back to the cross. 24:03 So when you travel, when you and Dianne get speaking 24:05 invitations, which are increasing, 24:08 sounds like you're getting more and more opportunities, 24:09 you're getting just a lot of stories, aren't you? Yes 24:12 People are coming out, it's almost like a dam is 24:15 being broken and like in the days of Noah, 24:18 it says the windows of heaven were opened and the water 24:22 came down... and in this sense, 24:24 it seems like there's a crack and there's an opening 24:27 and the people are coming to you saying... 24:32 "We appreciate that you are willing to talk about 24:35 this taboo subject." Yes 24:38 Well and the stories that we hear are heartbreaking. 24:41 I mean, they are just devastating, 24:43 especially when you consider that the pain 24:45 they're holding on to is decades later... 24:48 Just like in Dianne's story. 24:49 That's not just unique to her story, 24:52 it's really quite typical when an abortion happens 24:55 at a very young age and yet freedom and forgiveness 24:57 isn't found until decades later. 25:00 That's not the way we were meant to live on earth. 25:02 And why do you think there has been such a silence 25:08 on this topic, as far as ministry goes. 25:13 Why do you think that is? 25:15 Well, some people, perhaps they don't know how to 25:17 approach the issue; maybe some people are 25:19 truly afraid of offending a woman who is in that situation. 25:23 Maybe some people really aren't sure how 25:25 they would handle the situation if they were confronted with it. 25:28 I think there are quite a few motivations and undercurrents 25:31 that are at play there. 25:33 What I do know - is that the Lord has told us 25:36 to lift up our voice for women, 25:39 and to encourage everyone to embrace this message, 25:45 women in crisis, men in crisis, parents, pastors, doctors, 25:49 that we would all be honest before the Lord about our value, 25:53 and about our response as believers 25:56 in a situation like this. 25:57 And so you're hoping and praying that this will continue 25:59 to just open up more and more and you'll be able to reach 26:03 out to as many people as possible... 26:04 That's what your book is about, 26:06 that's what your ministry is about, 26:08 and I'm just... I'm in awe; I had no real interest in 26:13 getting into this topic at first when I first 26:15 heard about it, but then as time went on, 26:17 God began to work on me and just impressed me 26:20 that this is something that is really, really important 26:24 to Him and to people. 26:25 It shouldn't just be a side message. 26:29 So I think I'll line this up with the verse that is 26:34 the motto of "Mafgia Ministry" which is in Isaiah 59:15-16 26:42 It says, "The Lord saw it, and it displeased Him 26:46 that there was no justice. 26:48 He saw that there was no man and wondered 26:53 that there was no intercessor; therefore, His own arm 26:56 brought salvation for Him and His own righteousness 26:59 it sustained Him." 27:01 We believe that the time has come for God's arm to 27:05 reach out into the world on this issue 27:07 to help people on this issue. 27:10 And, we invite you to join us as intercessors 27:12 for the church, for people in the world, for everybody 27:15 that God will reveal His love in this crisis. 27:19 Dianne Wagner and Antionette Duck 27:21 share a powerful life-changing information in this 27:24 13-part series, "The Abortion Controversy" 27:27 To order this 6-1/2 hour DVD set for only $34.95, 27:32 call: 1-800-782-4253 27:39 Or, you can write to the following: 27:45 Or order online: www.whitehorsemedia.com 27:51 If you have been blessed by today's program, 27:54 and would like to help White Horse Media 27:56 with your financial support, you can call our 27:58 toll free number listed on the screen, 28:00 or donate online at whitehorsemedia.com 28:03 We solicit your prayers for our ministry 28:06 and we thank you for any gift large or small 28:09 to help us reach people with the gospel. |
Revised 2015-08-26