Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Antionette Duck, Dianne Wagner
Series Code: TAC
Program Code: TAC000004A
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00:08 Who are you and why are you here?
00:11 Are you just the product of some big bang? 00:14 Did you evolve from cosmic goop? 00:17 Or are you a person of unimaginable significance? 00:20 You'll find out next on "The Abortion Controversy" 00:51 Welcome to Part 4 of a special 13-Part series called, 00:55 "The Abortion Controversy" 00:56 Today's segment is called, "Created With Significance" 01:00 My guests are two fabulous ladies, 01:02 Antionette Duck and Dianne Wagoner 01:04 who have teamed up together in a special ministry called, 01:07 "Mafgia" and they are doing a lot of good. 01:10 They're helping a lot of people. 01:11 In the first two programs, I interviewed them, 01:13 and Dianne told an amazing story of how many years ago, 01:16 she had two abortions and it just about ruined her life. 01:20 She finally discovered the love and the grace and the goodness 01:23 and the mercy of God and it has changed her completely, 01:26 and Antionette has told her story quite a bit different, 01:30 but she was almost aborted as a baby, 01:33 but her mother changed her mind, 01:34 and so she's here today as well. 01:37 Today, we're going to go deeper and look like a submarine 01:40 going down under the water at the issue of 01:43 who we are and our significance. 01:45 So, ladies, thank you again for being here. 01:48 It's just great to have you here. 01:50 I am a learner and so, I'm here to listen. 01:54 So, where do you want to start... 01:56 with created for significance? 01:58 When we're talking about abortion and human value, 02:02 some tend to focus on the value of the unborn 02:06 and the rightness and wrongness of abortion... 02:09 And, some tend to focus on the crisis of the woman 02:15 who is in crisis and her circumstances. 02:17 For us, the issue isn't just about the unborn 02:21 and the rightness and wrongness, and it's not just about 02:24 the crisis of circumstance... 02:26 This issue is really about restoring value. 02:29 We've forgotten what it means 02:31 to be made in the image of the Lord. 02:33 I wanted to share a couple of texts with you, if I could... 02:36 I've got my Bible here too so... 02:39 It's Genesis 1:27 that God created man in His own image; 02:44 in the image of God He created Him, male and female 02:48 He created them. 02:50 And then down in Ephesians, it shows his workmanship 02:53 which I love, Ephesians 2:10. 02:56 I've been thinking about that verse recently. 02:57 It's an awesome text, it is. 03:00 We are God's workmanship created in Jesus Christ 03:04 to do good works which God prepared for us in advance. 03:09 Now that's just such a beautiful thought, 03:12 and I have one other quote I wanted to share 03:14 that a very special author that I like a lot has said, 03:18 and it's, "Men are so intent on excluding God 03:25 from the sovereignty of the universe, 03:27 that they degrade man and defraud him of the dignity 03:31 of his origin. 03:33 When the Lord came down to crown His glorious work, 03:37 He did not fail to create a being worthy of the 03:40 hand that gave him life." 03:43 I believe that mankind has lost our self worth 03:49 because we've lost sight of who gave it to us. 03:53 Right, our Creator... Well of course, the whole 03:55 evolution/creation controversy. 03:57 I mean, a lot of people think that we just... 03:59 somehow there was a bang and as millions of years 04:03 went by, somebody said, "Well, how did the 04:07 cells know to go female and male?" 04:10 I mean that's a mysterious question from 04:12 an evolutionary perspective, but, of course, 04:14 we don't believe in evolution; 04:15 we believe in creation. 04:17 And we're Christians, we believe in the Book, 04:19 the Bible and so this is a good place to start with. 04:22 The foundations, where did we come from, who are we? 04:26 What does the Book say? 04:27 Well, and so we see that it was established at creation, 04:30 and then, when the Lord came to die to set His people free, 04:34 it was affirmed forever more. 04:38 God literally gave His own life to buy us back, 04:42 and, you know, a text that everyone is so familiar with, 04:46 John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He literally gave 04:50 His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him, 04:53 should not perish, but have everlasting life." 04:56 So that means the infinite God became finite, 05:00 and the boundless god became bound. 05:03 Is it possible that we've heard it so often that we've 05:06 completely forgotten the significance of it. 05:10 In Isaiah 50:6-7, it says, "I gave my back to those 05:15 who struck Me and My cheeks to those who 05:17 plucked out the beard; I did not hide My face from 05:20 shame and spitting, for the Lord God will help Me; 05:24 therefore, I will not be disgraced; 05:26 therefore, I have set My face like a flint." 05:29 And in Hebrews 12:2, we're told, "For the joy that 05:32 was set before Him, He endured the cross, 05:35 despising the shame." 05:37 He literally suffered incredible humiliation for us, 05:42 and it was literally for the joy for us, 05:45 and our reconciliation to Him that He endured the cross, 05:48 and He despised the shame. 05:50 So, why is it necessary to go through that... 05:53 to emphasize our value at creation and the value 05:57 that was affirmed at the cross? 05:59 Because through these acts, through creation, 06:01 through the cross, the Lord literally established 06:04 Himself as the unshakable standard that defines our worth. 06:11 We possess intrinsic value, and I love the way, Dianne, 06:17 that you define this intrinsic value. 06:20 Oh, we were talking about this. 06:23 I had never looked at the word "intrinsic value" before, 06:26 until I heard Antionette talk about it. 06:29 And, this is the way I summed it up... 06:31 "It was not something we've earned; 06:33 it was not something we have achieved in life, 06:37 and it's not something that we prove." 06:38 You know, so many times people desperately try to 06:41 prove their worth... which is the case in a lot of 06:44 post-abortive women. 06:45 You know, because of the shame, they try to prove 06:49 themselves and that can create that vicious cycle 06:53 of this sadness that they exist under. 06:56 And, it's only when we realize that this value, 07:01 this intrinsic value is something that was placed on us, 07:05 and that just made such a huge impact on my life. 07:08 I'm convinced a lot of people, whether they're pregnant 07:12 in a bad situation, a lot of their decision-making 07:17 is based on their self-value. 07:19 I know you've heard stories where people have 07:22 had a pregnancy, but had aborted it because 07:25 they didn't want anybody to know... 07:27 Or parents have ushered their kids into abortion clinics 07:31 because they didn't want anybody to know... 07:33 And so much of it has to do with status or worth, 07:36 or what people will think. And people are embarrassed. 07:38 Yes, unfortunately... exactly! 07:43 We place our value on what another man thinks 07:47 or what he will think, or she will think 07:49 if they find this out about me... 07:51 which is so very sad because it 07:53 impacts every area of our life. 07:56 So you said that when you discovered, 07:58 in your intrinsic value, that it really 08:01 made a difference to you. 08:03 Oh absolutely, and you know, that was the beforehand, 08:06 the impact of not knowing our intrinsic value. 08:09 And did you discover that, just by reading the Bible? 08:11 Did you get it from... Did you talk to Antionette? 08:15 What happened that caused the lights to go on, 08:18 and you just went, "Wow God, You made me, 08:21 and I'm valuable to You." 08:23 Well, I'm one who really believes in spending time 08:26 with the Lord every day and getting acquainted with the Lord 08:30 ... But I had never really thought of the intrinsic value 08:32 issue until I heard her talking about it once at a seminar. 08:36 And it just was my paradigm shift, it was a paradigm shift. 08:42 And it was like... My experience being 08:46 post-abortive, I tried to prove myself... 08:49 You know, I tried to earn people's respect, 08:52 or earn my self-respect, I was just grasping for that, 08:57 but when I heard Antionette talk about it, 09:00 and I started really contemplating it, 09:02 and praying about it, and the more I embraced 09:05 that thought, it just... it broke my heart 09:08 because it made me realize just how important we are. 09:11 It makes an impact on how we look at each other, 09:14 and it makes an impact on how we look at the unborn. 09:18 Every creation, you know, and the special blessing 09:23 of being in the image of God; 09:25 you know, all of a sudden, it just takes on a 09:27 whole new meaning - it really made a huge impact on me. 09:30 Wow, Antionette, I'm assuming that there was a moment 09:34 or a time in the past where that revelation dawned on you 09:38 as well... can you fill us in a little bit about that? 09:41 I think it's happened over time. 09:42 It's happened in being in relationship with the Lord, 09:45 and especially coming to... as certainly I've sought 09:49 to understand His heart on this issue... 09:51 That we bear intrinsic value and eternal significance, 09:55 and that it's a value and a significance that no one 09:59 and nothing can destroy, and a value isn't based on 10:03 what we do or achieve or possess. 10:05 It's based solely on the fact that we're made 10:07 in the image of the Lord and in seeking His heart on it really. 10:13 This is what is true of us; it's borne out in Scripture. 10:17 In Romans 11:29, for instance, it says that: 10:20 "The calling and election of the Lord are irrevocable." 10:24 That's phenomenal because for every single 10:27 person who has ever been born, ever to walk 10:29 the face of the earth... the calling and election of the 10:31 Lord on their lives - it's irrevocable... 10:34 He's never going to take it back. 10:36 That means we were born with purpose; 10:38 we were created with destiny... 10:40 And it's a purpose and a destiny that we alone can fill. 10:44 That is how valuable we are. 10:46 It's absolutely mind-boggling if we will allow 10:49 the truth of that to sink in, 10:51 and will dare to believe that it's really true. 10:55 So when it comes to the whole abortion issue with 10:59 like you mentioned, whether it's right or wrong, 11:01 and the crisis that a woman goes through and then 11:04 the post-abortion trauma and all of that struggle, 11:08 I mean, all of these things are very real issues 11:10 that we'll continue to explore, but you see the value issue 11:14 as an underlying issue that affects all the other issues, 11:17 is that right? Absolutely! 11:19 The Lord truly is as He has said in His Word, 11:23 ...You were made in My image, thus, you are valuable. 11:26 He really is the unshakable standard that defines our worth, 11:31 and He invites us to build our lives to interact with the world 11:37 on the foundation of who He has said that we are. 11:42 He really is the standard that cannot be shaken, 11:47 and that's a very humbling concept because we 11:51 are used to, as Dianne mentioned, as I certainly have 11:54 experienced in my own life, grasping and striving 11:56 to prove our value, our significance, our worth. 12:00 It's very humbling to say, 12:01 "I'm valuable solely because I'm made in the image 12:04 of the Lord and that's it." 12:05 I don't bring anything to the table that makes me 12:08 more valuable ultimately; not at conception, 12:11 not at birth, not in the middle of life, not at the end of life. 12:14 The Lord is truly the only one that defines my value. 12:19 It is humbling for us as people. 12:22 So, it's not based on my job. NO! 12:24 It's not based on how good I am. Right 12:26 It's not based on even how bad I've been. Absolutely not. 12:29 It's based on who God is and who He made me to be. Yes 12:34 And even though I mess up and we certainly do need 12:37 His forgiveness, there is still the underlying sense 12:39 that God sees me as important enough to spend time with me, 12:47 and He loves me and in spite of the fact that I've 12:49 messed up, we have hope. Right? Yes 12:52 It's a hope issue and a purpose issue, 12:54 and of course I want to ask in a little bit, 12:56 you know, well the significance ... what is that for? 13:00 What's the goal? What's the purpose? 13:03 But anyway, you looked like you were about to say something. 13:06 Well with what you were saying, it made me, and I have 13:08 talked to Antionette about this, when you realize that, 13:14 you can rest... Me personally, it was like 13:19 I experienced... it's like silence where you really 13:23 could sit back and rest - because it's what has 13:28 been given you - this treasure, this jewel, you know, pearl, 13:33 greater than - you know - without price on it. 13:36 When we realize that, then we are able to rest, 13:40 and then when we stand up, we're doing it for the 13:44 glory of the Lord, not for some "trying to gain," 13:49 like we've talked about "Our worth" 13:51 or impress somebody, you know, try to prove that, 13:54 "Yes, I am worthy." 13:57 And so to me, it just was life-changing 14:00 because the sweet rest... you know, the Lord tells us 14:03 to be still - we're always clamoring and racing 14:07 and trying to achieve... We're too busy! YES! 14:09 Especially today, especially with cell phones and texting 14:13 computer and internet, and emails. 14:15 I mean, I just came back from a vacation with my wife 14:19 and my kids and I had to resolutely not 14:22 bring my laptop - which my wife was thrilled. 14:25 I actually went through security on the way to our vacation 14:29 at an airport and I reached into my satchel 14:33 to grab my laptop out, and it wasn't there. 14:36 And I had this panic - "Oh NO," I've lost my laptop. 14:40 or where is it," and then I realized, 14:41 "wait a minute, I didn't bring it - it's vacation time." 14:44 Right! And I turned my cell phone 14:46 off too, so I could just disconnect, 14:48 and I think, you know, we need to disconnect, 14:51 we need to be still, we need to think... 14:53 Why am I here, who made me, 14:56 I know that this verse, really is foundational to 14:59 what you're saying is Genesis 1:27, 15:01 "So God created man in His own image, 15:05 in the image of God, He created him male 15:07 and female He created them." 15:10 That's our foundation of where we came from. 15:13 That's why I had to share that text earlier 15:15 because it's where it starts. Absolutely 15:19 And if we will humble ourselves to the Lord's standard, 15:23 if we will yield and say, we're valuable solely 15:26 because we are make in Your image and that's it, 15:28 we will truly stand in glory. 15:31 We will find the value, the purpose, the significance 15:34 that we're seeking, if we will humble ourselves 15:38 and stand on His standard alone as the One that defines us. 15:42 The problem as we discussed some already, 15:45 is when we don't understand this truth, 15:48 and so instead of embracing the Lord's standard, 15:52 we create our own standard and we decide to 15:57 re-define who and what is valuable. 16:01 So, to make it practical, let's say you have a 16:04 17-year-old girl and her home is dysfunctional, 16:08 she has all kinds of problems, she starts drinking... 16:11 She meets a guy, she goes out, she gets pregnant. 16:14 She realizes she's pregnant and then she tempted 16:18 to have an abortion which, from what I've studied 16:21 and I'm sure you could fill in more details that the majority 16:23 of pregnancies are young girls, right?... 18 to 24 years old 16:27 18 to 24- - So this issue, how will that affect her 16:31 if she is contemplating... "I'm not ready to have a 16:34 baby and I'm not even married; my home is a mess; 16:38 I'm trying to get into school" and now she is struggling 16:42 with a new life inside of her. 16:44 How does the value issue affect her if she 16:48 understands it or doesn't understand it? 16:50 Well I think the value... my first thought was this, 16:56 if she is 17 and still living at home, her mother - if she 17:00 shares this with her mother, is going to have a huge impact 17:04 on where she goes because if her mother understands the value 17:08 first of all of herself and then the value of that daughter, 17:13 and then the value of that baby that's growing in her daughter 17:18 ... you know, put aside the other prejudices and the 17:21 other "Oh-no's" and who is going to think what, 17:25 but if she truly has an understanding of the 17:28 value of life and where it stems from, 17:31 there's going to come... it's like she will be there 17:37 for her daughter and she will be able - in many, many 17:40 cases this is the truth, she'll give that daughter 17:43 courage that this is something they can face; 17:47 that this is a precious little life. 17:49 And even if she decides to give this precious little 17:52 life to someone else to raise, to rear and provide for, 17:58 that will never lose the value of this child, 18:03 you know, the unborn child. 18:04 And by doing this, Steve, even if there is rocky road, 18:09 rough times - it's a hard time, it's a difficult time, 18:13 she is giving her daughter, her pregnant daughter, 18:16 dignity and that dignity will go with that daughter 18:21 the rest of her life. 18:22 There are so many women, continuous stories, 18:27 of a teenage daughter who was taken to an abortion clinic 18:31 to get rid of a baby. 18:33 Now obviously, the baby has no value... 18:36 the baby is an embarrassment or something in the way 18:39 or an expense... to the mother at that time. 18:43 You know, they're not saying really, but just their thinking. 18:47 Perception... exactly. 18:48 But to that daughter... It's just a thing, like you said 18:50 ... the lady said to you, "It's just a fuzz ball." Right 18:53 Just something in the way that we can deal with 18:55 as far as that mindset. 18:56 But that daughter is going to live with dignity. 19:00 Now, right away, it may be a trauma and it may be 19:03 an upset, but 20- 10 years from now, 19:06 she won't have the shame of doing something, 19:09 taking a life with value. 19:11 That mother is giving her teenage daughter dignity. 19:15 It's not the end of the world all because your pregnant. 19:18 It's unfortunate, but we can get past this, that's a prize. 19:22 So for you, when you told your story, 19:24 how old were you when you first discovered 19:26 that you were pregnant? Oh I was 25, I was older. 19:29 You were engaged and you were 6 months away from your wedding, 19:32 something like that... Yes and then you messed up 19:34 one time and then you realized you were pregnant, 19:36 but you were thinking all those other thoughts - right 19:39 about the embarrassment and how can I tell my grandma, 19:41 and my family, and my Christian friends, and what do I do, 19:46 plus the x-ray issue that you had an x-ray, 19:48 and you were getting advice from physicians that 19:52 you really should go through with an abortion... 19:54 So, if you would have understood the value issue more clearly, 19:58 how would that have affected you at that time? 20:00 It would have made a huge... 20:02 First of all, I wouldn't have been as concerned about 20:06 what this person will think or that person, 20:09 because I don't get my self-value from them. 20:12 My self-value comes from the Lord... 20:14 So that right there... that was, more so than the x-rays 20:18 and the physicians and what they told me... 20:20 you know, I could go through life saying, "Well I had the 20:23 abortion because the baby could have had these problems 20:25 because of these x-rays. 20:27 But when I'm honest with myself, that wasn't why I had it. 20:31 I was concerned about all these other people what they would 20:34 think. You were thinking about how it was going to look. 20:38 So that shows you my self worth, my value - so much of it 20:42 was based on other people's opinions, 20:45 and unfortunately, people's silence on this issue 20:49 has thrown women, that do get into this kind of crisis, 20:53 right into that mindset. 20:56 We don't value each other, 20:58 and if we don't value each other like adults here, you and me, 21:03 Antionette, how are we going to grasp the value of 21:07 a child that can't even be seen? 21:09 Okay, I got it, so you're saying that if we really 21:12 understand God and His plan and why He made us, 21:17 and that we're important to Him, whether we're grownups 21:21 or whether we're just starting out inside the body, 21:26 inside a woman's womb, that we are still... 21:29 that the value issue - once we know the purpose of life, 21:32 then that will affect our choices... Absolutely 21:35 And, I mean, we need to understand that so that we 21:37 don't get ourselves into those situations in the first place, 21:40 and we'll deal with that more later on in other programs, 21:43 but it's a spiral, isn't it? 21:45 We're caught, we're in a rut, we're in a chaotic situation, 21:50 and just the simplest thing to do is just make it all better 21:55 so that we can not deal with this anymore - 21:57 but the reality is it doesn't work like you've told us 22:00 your story... it's just the guilt is there 22:03 and it's very traumatic. 22:04 So now we're coming back to the foundation issue 22:07 that will hopefully help people to realize that 22:09 if I'm valuable, you're valuable and then what's inside me, 22:13 or not me because I'm a guy, but you know, 22:16 a woman would think that, what's inside of a woman 22:19 is something precious in the sight of the Lord, 22:23 and He has created this person. 22:27 But she too is precious; I really think that the idea 22:31 that we're not valuable and not understanding our value, 22:34 it is rampant among thousands upon thousands, 22:39 millions of people who don't understand because we've 22:42 rejected the image of the Lord as defining our value, 22:46 and we see that happening. 22:51 I love Dianne's illustration because it addresses it 22:53 from both aspects; from the woman herself, 22:56 but also of the unborn child. 22:58 And, are we willing to be honest with ourselves 23:01 about when that value really does begin 23:04 because I think a lot of people would hear this and say, 23:06 "Well of course human beings are valuable." 23:09 But the question is, "When does it begin?" 23:11 Does that value begin at the very beginning 23:13 when the Lord put His stamp on us? 23:16 Are we willing to be honest about the fact that 23:18 if it doesn't begin at our beginning, 23:21 what are the consequences of that? 23:24 Does that mean that, as we've discussed already, 23:28 our value then will become based on what we do, 23:31 what we achieve, what we possess. 23:33 It's a mindset that from the very beginning 23:37 you're valuable because you're made in the image of the Lord, 23:39 and it defines you for the rest of your life. 23:42 And so, instead of just thinking this person - what are they 23:44 going to say - my job, am I ready for this, 23:47 I'm not married and all these other thoughts 23:49 we start thinking instead of this way, 23:51 we're thinking - that way and who am I, 23:54 even though I've messed up, and who is this 23:57 now that's inside that's growing. 23:59 And so we have a whole different paradigm shift... 24:02 it reminds me of a Bible verse that says, 24:04 "In His light shall we see light," 24:07 but we don't typically... we just don't know, 24:10 we don't get it, right? We just don't get it, 24:13 until we start thinking and reading and realizing 24:15 "Wow God, I'm here because You made me, 24:19 and I'm here for a reason, and if I have a new life 24:21 inside me that's part of Your plan." 24:23 Right? Isn't that it? That's the idea that the new 24:27 life inside me is because of God and He has a plan 24:30 for that new life. Absolutely! 24:33 And will we, as believers, be willing to be honest 24:36 enough with ourselves to say, "We are made in the 24:39 image of the Lord and that defines our value." 24:42 And to not look for other avenues that 24:47 define our value because we're not willing to be honest 24:50 about this issue that we would truly embrace 24:53 the value and the significance of the unborn of the woman 24:56 as a complete package because the Lord 24:59 is Creator of them both. 25:02 Wow, that's powerful and it's in God's Word. 25:06 We have a little bit of time, any other quick thoughts 25:08 before I point to another Bible verse? 25:11 We've got about 2 minutes... 25:13 Well, I do think if we reject the image of the Lord, 25:19 for us to understand that we really are striking 25:23 down the standard that defines us. 25:26 Again, we've said that over and over, 25:27 "the image of the Lord is the standard." 25:29 But if we choose to reject that, as I've done, 25:32 as Dianne has done, I think as so many people 25:34 have done when we wandered away from the Lord, 25:36 as saying, "You are the standard that defines me," 25:39 if we reject that, who then becomes the standard? 25:42 We become the standard, man does. 25:44 The problem is, the value then that was once absolute 25:50 it becomes unattainable because we're grasping, 25:53 and we're striving and we're never rested and settled 25:56 in the fact that the Lord and the Lord, alone, 25:59 defines our value. 26:00 And that we don't make decisions based on His will for our lives. 26:04 We get all messed up. 26:05 I want to share a Bible verse that's very powerful... 26:09 It's in the book of Jeremiah 1:4-5 26:13 It says, "Then the word of the Lord came to me 26:16 and it said, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you." 26:23 And this doesn't just apply to Jeremiah, it applies to you. 26:27 Before you were formed, God knew you, 26:30 He formed you in the womb, He has a plan for you, 26:33 He created you and His plan is beyond anything 26:38 that we can ever understand without looking to Him. 26:43 We're made in His image, He wants to teach us how to 26:46 reveal that image, how to show His love, His grace, 26:50 and His compassion to others around us, 26:52 and to realize that not only did He create us, 26:54 but He sent His own Son to give His life for us 26:58 and that shows us how important we are to Him. 27:02 And, He wants you to know that love for the rest of your life 27:07 and forever. 27:09 Dianne Wagner and Antionette Duck 27:11 share powerful life-changing information in this 27:13 13-part series: "The Abortion Controversy" 27:17 To order this 6-1/2 hour DVD set for only $34.95, 27:21 call: 1-800-782-4253 27:28 Or, you can write to: 27:34 Or order online: www.whitehorsemedia.com 27:39 Steve Wohlberg's latest pocket book: 27:41 "Hidden Holocaust" is a must-read for anyone 27:45 contemplating an abortion or who has had one. 27:48 While Steve shares the biblical position on this controversial 27:51 subject, he also presents a message of hope and healing. 27:55 To get your free copy of the pocket book, 27:58 "Hidden Holocaust" just call the toll free number on the 28:00 screen and order your copy today or write to the following: |
Revised 2015-08-27