Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Antionette Duck, Dianne Wagner
Series Code: TAC
Program Code: TAC000008A
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00:08 Abortion is typically seen as a woman's issue,
00:11 but what about the men? 00:13 Do words like guilt, responsibility and love 00:15 apply to the guys too? 00:17 That's what's next on The Abortion Controversy. 00:48 Thank you for joining us for Part 8 00:49 of the 13-part series called The Abortion Controversy. 00:53 We have been dealing with the ups and downs 00:54 and ins and outs of the abortion dilemma, 00:57 and I've been interviewing two women. 00:59 We've been hearing from a woman's perspective. 01:01 And Dianne Wagner and Antionette Duck 01:03 of Mafgia ministry, 01:04 they've dedicated their lives to helping, 01:06 to shed light into this dark subject. 01:11 And today we're gonna shift gears 01:12 and talk about the men. 01:14 Men, it obviously takes two to produce a baby 01:17 and we are involved and so, guys, get ready. 01:20 We're gonna hear from the women 01:22 and what they have to say to us. 01:25 So, ladies, again, thank you for being here. 01:28 This has been a very 01:29 enlightening series of programs. 01:32 I've learned a lot and I have a lot more to learn. 01:34 So I'm gonna brace myself 01:36 because I know you are talking about the guys. 01:39 And so where do you want to start? 01:42 You know, when we think of the issue of abortion, 01:45 it's really remarkable the number of people 01:48 who either claim or just believe 01:51 that abortion is simply a woman's issue, 01:54 that abortion only affects women, 01:57 or that women are the only people 02:00 grappling with this issue. 02:02 That idea is simply false. 02:06 We know that statistically, 02:08 over one third to one half of all women 02:13 will have had an abortion by the time she reaches age 45. 02:17 Wow, that's an incredible statistic. 02:20 It's staggering and it applies to women 02:23 who are in and out of the church. 02:26 If we say for the sake of argument 02:29 that there are the same number of men and women in the world 02:33 and we know that over one third to one half of all women 02:37 will have had an abortion by the time she is 45. 02:40 That means over one half to one third of all men 02:43 will have fathered a child who was aborted. 02:46 And I'm assuming in a lot of those cases 02:48 I guess we don't really know 02:50 but that a lot of those men don't even know 02:53 that they fathered a child. 02:54 Perhaps not, very likely not, 02:56 but what we do know is that abortion 02:58 is not just a women's issue. 03:01 In fact, what I wanted to share, 03:03 I did some research on that 03:05 and how men respond to the news 03:07 of their girlfriend or even wife, 03:10 you know, who is pregnant with an unintended pregnancy, 03:13 and these are what I came up with. 03:15 You know, they can both agree to the decision of an abortion, 03:19 the man and woman, they both decide together, 03:22 or the man may pressure the woman. 03:25 He doesn't want the responsibility 03:26 so he will threaten her, manipulate her 03:29 into an abortion, 03:31 threaten her into leaving, abandoning her. 03:34 So a lot of times the woman doesn't want it 03:35 but the man puts the screws down. 03:38 Unfortunately that's... 03:39 He says you do this or else... 03:41 That's right, then or maybe it's a friend or a parent 03:44 who is putting pressure on that young lady 03:46 and the man in this case just stands aside 03:50 and let other people make the decision 03:52 for his baby, you know. 03:54 Another one is well, 03:57 when the man may abandon the relationship altogether. 03:59 He just disappears. 04:01 He gets the news, he leaves, 04:02 so he's not even in the decision process. 04:04 He leaves the picture. 04:06 Um, the man may maintain the relationship 04:10 but passively leaves the decision to her. 04:14 There's another one which, 04:15 his partner may choose abortion against his wishes 04:19 and I've seen this. 04:21 I've had men come to me and share their experience 04:23 where they wanted the baby but their wife chose 04:27 or their girlfriend chose, you know, to have the abortion. 04:30 And then the last one was the man may not even know 04:33 about the abortion like you were just saying, 04:36 it's until it's already past if ever, you know. 04:41 So those are responses of men? Typical responses of men. 04:45 And I'm sure we're gonna get into the issue of what, 04:47 how should men respond. 04:49 I mean obviously the ideal in an ideal world is for a man 04:54 to wait until he gets married 04:56 and for a woman to wait until she gets married 04:58 and then they don't have to deal with this issue, 05:01 at least most of the time. 05:02 But we don't live in an ideal world. 05:04 We live in a crazy, mixed up world 05:05 that I've thought a lot about this whole issue 05:07 and it seems like a lot of it's just like the Middle East. 05:09 The Middle East mess 05:10 between the Israelis and the Palestinians, 05:12 nobody can seem to figure this out 05:14 or unravel this or bring about peace, 05:16 and as long as we live in a sinful world 05:17 where people are doing what they're doing, 05:20 this dilemma is going to come up, right? 05:24 I mean, there's I guess until the Lord comes 05:27 and gets rid of sin, 05:30 we're gonna be dealing with this 05:32 until the end of time. 05:34 Right, in fact, earlier you were asking us 05:37 as in giving us a scenario. 05:39 Do you want to go into that now or? 05:41 Sure, I was telling you about, 05:44 I had a real practical question. 05:46 If I were to backtrack back to my teenage years. 05:50 I didn't grow up a Christian. 05:52 I grew up in the Hollywood Hills, 05:54 went to North Hollywood High School. 05:56 At the age of 19, I have never read the Bible, 06:00 I never prayed, 06:01 I didn't know anything about God at all 06:03 and I think there's a lot of people like me, 06:05 a lot of guys like me, a lot of girls like me. 06:08 Back then, and I was just living 06:10 you know, I went to the parties, 06:11 went to the rock concerts, I smoked marijuana, 06:14 snorted cocaine and lived a very promiscuous life 06:18 that I'm ashamed of right now. 06:21 And now that I'm a Christian, thank God, 06:23 the Lord has changed my life. 06:24 I did, by His grace I waited until 06:27 I got married with Kristen 06:29 and we have two beautiful children 06:31 and it's just a whole new world for me. 06:34 But thinking about the men's responsibility going back 06:36 when I was 19, what should I have done 06:40 as a man if one of the ladies that I met at a party 06:46 or that I knew as high school friend 06:49 came to me and said, Steve, brace yourself, 06:53 I'm expecting a baby and you are the dad. 06:56 You know, what should I have done? 06:59 And we're talking about the man's issue, 07:01 what should, 07:04 I wasn't ready to get married, wasn't ready to be a dad. 07:07 I didn't know anything about getting married or being a dad. 07:09 But give me the options and tell me what you know, 07:13 to make it practical 07:15 what should some one like me have done in that situation. 07:17 Well, you know, the idea of taking responsibility 07:22 for something has really become laws in our culture. 07:27 I don't think that we would say that 07:29 just because a couple gets pregnant, 07:31 they are meant to get married. 07:33 They are tremendous options, 07:35 adoption being an incredible one 07:38 where if a couple does get pregnant 07:41 and it is unplanned 07:42 that there's a way for that couple 07:45 to move on with their lives 07:48 and that giving your child up 07:51 for adoption is a difficult decision. 07:54 It's a difficult process 07:55 where in terms of having to release 07:57 that child to someone else 07:59 but it helps to preserve the life of everyone 08:04 who is involved. 08:06 There is a quote I heard recently 08:08 that said, um, we live in a society 08:12 where it's okay for men to walk away 08:15 and that's so poignant. 08:18 It's so true but such a tragedy 08:21 because um, we've created a culture 08:24 at least accepted one where it's okay for men 08:27 to engage in life changing behaviors 08:33 and yet when it comes time to take responsibility 08:37 to be a man of integrity, to act with character, 08:40 to say, I'm not going to leave you, 08:43 I'm going to walk by your side, 08:44 I'm going to be with you through this circumstance 08:47 instead we put the ownness you could say, 08:53 a responsibility on women 08:55 where men can throw money at a problem 08:57 and say go take care of it. 08:59 You deal with it. 09:00 He can just simply abandon her and say this is your body, 09:04 your choice so you make that decision. 09:06 Okay, so if I wasn't ready to get married 09:08 I should still let the women know 09:11 that I don't want you to abort the baby. 09:14 This is our baby. 09:15 This is the life 09:17 and I'm gonna support you 09:19 and check out an adoption option 09:23 and then if the child did was born 09:25 and then found a home, 09:27 then I'm assuming as I look back 09:30 that I should still be in this situation 09:34 in the picture so that the boy or girl knows that I'm the dad. 09:39 I'm dad even though I made a mistake, 09:41 I didn't marry your mom but I'm your father. 09:44 Is that the way I should be or should I just bow out 09:46 and just let another couple 09:48 raise the child not knowing about me. 09:51 What's the right thing to do? 09:52 And even another couple, depending on the agreement 09:55 in the adoption scenario you know, 09:57 because there is different adoption scenarios 10:00 where the biological mother & father 10:04 are able to have some degree of contact 10:06 with that child and then there are situations 10:08 where there's no contact. 10:10 So that would depend as far as the fathers 10:12 but if there is an open door for involvement, yes sir, 10:15 that father needs to be in there 10:18 and so many times we see a young lady having the baby 10:23 and with the support of her mother and father 10:26 you know, but where is the father 10:28 and the sad thing about this is that child grows up 10:33 without ever being acknowledged 10:35 by its biological father you know. 10:38 Your mother and I chose not to get married 10:41 but that doesn't mean 10:42 that you aren't precious and valuable. 10:45 And we talked about that too that we I know you really told, 10:48 you really want to stress that 10:50 if a man and woman do come together 10:53 outside of marriage even if it's just a one night 10:56 stand or whatever and the woman gets pregnant 10:58 and then they choose not to abort the baby 11:01 and the baby grows up, the baby and she knows, he or she knows 11:05 that the dad is not with me now 11:08 at least it means to be communicated 11:10 clearly to that child that the mistake 11:14 was in what mom and dad did but the mistake is not you. 11:18 You're not a mistake right, you are not to blame, 11:22 you are still precious and valuable 11:25 in the sight of God, 11:26 you have a purpose and to me that's just 11:28 the lights really went on when you told me that 11:31 that's really important. 11:32 Yes, and it's well, it's sad 11:35 because you know, we engage in certain behaviors 11:39 and there are consequences. 11:40 We know that if we have sex, 11:42 particularly with someone we're not married to, 11:44 sex can lead to pregnancy 11:46 and yet when if someone winds up pregnant, 11:50 the child is seen as a punishment 11:53 or a horrible consequence of that behavior. 11:57 That child came by the hand of the Lord. 12:00 If the Lord is our creator 12:01 and as believers we really do believe that 12:03 then the child came by hand of the Lord 12:06 and so instead of treating 12:09 and you know one of the first seminars 12:11 that I ever gave, a woman in the audience 12:12 really was strong in this point 12:14 that the sex outside of bounds of the Lord had established, 12:20 that was the sin. 12:22 The child was not the sin. The pregnancy was not. 12:24 And you know, this whole topic sure re-emphasizes to me 12:29 and I'm sure to you that following God's plan 12:32 as described in the Bible 12:33 as outlined in the Garden of Eden 12:35 for a man to leave his father and mother 12:37 be united to his wife, not his girlfriend 12:40 or his boy friend but his wife 12:43 and the two of them become one flesh 12:45 and it's in that context that sexuality takes place 12:48 in the context of commitment and in that context 12:50 children are born into the world 12:52 where they can grow up 12:53 and I know that's just not what happens 12:55 so often in this world of sin but it's still God's plan 12:59 and when we follow God's plan, the result is blessing. 13:04 You know, so many times we hear the, 13:07 "I'm not ready for this, I'm not ready for a child." 13:10 And we need to take on the mind set 13:14 of I'm not ready for sex 13:17 because I'm not ready to take on 13:18 what could be a result you know. 13:21 We are so quick to say I'm not ready for this baby 13:24 but yet we so quick to say I want the sex. 13:27 I'm ready for that. 13:29 And you know it's understandable to some extent 13:33 I mean, when you look at the sexuality 13:36 that just saturates our society that people just do it. 13:42 They just do it, like if it feels good do it 13:45 and they don't think about the consequences 13:47 of producing a life so the convenient thing to do 13:50 is just to get rid of the baby 13:52 when that's really not God's plan at all. 13:56 Well, and it's incredible Dianne, 13:58 I appreciate something you mentioned earlier 13:59 that number of women 14:01 who would actually keep the baby 14:02 if the father said, I won't leave you, 14:05 the scenario is that she laid out men saying 14:08 I will leave you, 14:10 men threatening to actually harm the woman 14:12 if she keeps the baby, 14:13 men just completely abandoning her, 14:16 there are so many children, 14:18 who would be alive walk in the earth 14:19 and so many women who wouldn't be post-abortive 14:22 if men said I made a choice, 14:24 I'm going to be a man of integrity 14:27 and I'm going to support you, I'm going to pay child support, 14:30 we're gonna walk through this thing together. 14:33 It's amazing the number of women who said 14:35 "I would've kept my baby but he would stand by me. 14:39 What was I going to do? 14:40 I had no where to go, I had no support." 14:42 she doesn't want to tell her parents. 14:43 She's in crisis and that man in that situation 14:47 even if he is a 15 year old, saying "You know what? 14:50 I'm not gonna leave you." 14:52 Now obviously, the younger you are the more, 14:54 you have parental involvement 14:56 but considering the majority of abortions take place 14:59 between 18 and 24, you're talking about students, 15:03 that demographic, they are in college, 15:05 they are single 15:06 and what you are dealing with is, men, 15:09 who are saying it's your body your choice 15:12 and we've really given them 15:14 kind of a get-out-of-jail free card 15:15 because they get to put their arms back and say, 15:18 "This is just a woman's issue. 15:19 I don't even have a voice here." 15:21 And walk away. 15:23 And it sounds like it's not just the man's issue 15:26 and the woman's issue, it's the parents' issue too. 15:27 I mean, if a girl would've come to me and told me 15:30 that she was pregnant because of me, 15:33 my parents need to be involved 15:36 as their son 15:37 and we all need to network together and say, "Okay, 15:40 I made a mistake, I did wrong but I need to owned up to this 15:43 and at least if you we're not ready to get morning, 15:45 we 're ready to act responsibly 15:47 and to be a part of this woman's life 15:49 and this baby's life and do the best we can. 15:52 And then all goes back to acknowledging the value, 15:56 the value of this son, "Okay, 15:58 he's living a very irresponsible life 16:01 but he's still created in the image of God." 16:03 That's right. 16:05 And my dad should have said 16:06 or it never came up or my mother, 16:08 this is my, this is the grand child. 16:09 And that's exactly right. 16:12 Okay, so I think you've answered my question 16:14 concerning me 16:16 as a promiscuous 19 year old, Godless 16:18 just doing whatever I wanted to do. 16:20 Now what about your and your husband 16:23 or your fiance situation, your situation as you told, 16:27 you've discovered that you were expecting at 25, 16:30 you were not married yet, 16:31 you six months until the wedding day, 16:35 go into what should a Christian man do 16:38 if he finds out the situation. 16:40 How should he relate? 16:41 Well, certainly, a Christian, 16:43 Unexpected development. 16:45 Right, exactly, well, you know, what should a Christian man do, 16:48 well hopefully that Christian man, 16:51 not just believes in God but believes God. 16:56 By believing in God, you have that experience, God is there. 17:00 So when I you know, you said a Christian man hopefully 17:03 that man will appreciate the value of life 17:07 so won't be even be an option as far as the abortion. 17:11 you know, that it's like, "We have a baby." 17:13 You know, now you know, you had asked about my husband, 17:18 I have no doubt his love for me and many men fall into this 17:24 where they leave it up to the woman. 17:25 They support her, David flew to Reno, 17:29 he paid for the abortion, he went to the clinic with me, 17:32 you know, went with me afterwards 17:35 back to my apartment where I was living 17:37 and he supported me the very best way he knew. 17:42 And we've talked about it a number of times, 17:45 and we've been through the crisis, 17:48 and the Lord has restored our relationship 17:52 but one thing that had a big impact on him 17:56 was that it was legal. 17:58 It was legal. 17:59 You know it wasn't like we were doing anything "wrong" 18:03 so... 18:04 From the government's perspective, constitutionally. 18:07 So, but now of course 18:09 he has had his regrets you know, 18:11 and he's gone to the Lord, 18:14 he's gone to the feet of Jesus with that 18:17 and being a man I don't know 18:20 if we need to go into yet as far as the grief 18:23 and the experiences that for a man. 18:26 But you know, men have when they do come to the point 18:30 where they realize what they did was wrong. 18:33 Like you came to that conclusion. 18:34 Right, men too come to the same thing 18:36 and that impacts men in a different way 18:38 because it's God given. 18:40 A man is to be the head of the household. 18:44 The "houseband," the protector, the provider 18:47 and so everything that is innately in him, 18:51 he went against. 18:53 So the guilt that a man experiences, 18:55 especially when men are the ones 18:57 who want to go in there and fix and make everything right 19:01 you know, where just, take care of things. 19:04 So when a man comes back and he realizes, 19:07 he wasn't there for his wife or his lover or loved one... 19:12 That was his baby too. 19:14 And that was his baby 19:15 so he wasn't there for that baby, 19:17 you know, men can have a terrible reaction to that 19:22 and as much as women stuff it, men stuff it deeper 19:27 and a lot of times you know, they will fall into alcoholism. 19:31 It's very common. 19:33 They'll have post-abortive, dramatic... 19:34 They have own post-abortive... 19:36 Symptoms as well. Exactly. 19:39 And you know with a men whose wives 19:43 have chosen to have an abortion even against their will, 19:47 those men it's really sad 19:48 because their voice has been taken away from them. 19:51 So they deal with anger and helplessness. 19:54 They've lost their voice and they've lost all control 19:58 over saving the life of that child. 20:00 And they, my heart really goes out to those men 20:03 because they've been stripped of their protector, 20:08 you know, the provider, 20:10 every thing has been taken away from them. 20:13 So in fact, I was telling Antionette this morning 20:16 how it was in 1976 that the Supreme court 20:20 decided that a husband had no legal right 20:23 to limit his wife's decision to abort. 20:26 He has no voice. 20:28 So it's not just what the wife does to him. 20:32 It's society. 20:33 They have stripped him of his manhood. 20:36 Right, so we can't just say that just because 20:38 the government has made it legal in 1973, 20:42 that the government is infallible 20:43 and then every decision 20:45 in every law that it passes is necessarily right. 20:49 Right, exactly. 20:50 The government is made up of the people 20:52 that are sinners like the rest of us 20:53 and only God is infallible and His word. 20:55 And we need to follow His plan. 20:58 So what does the man do 20:59 when he struggles with the anger, 21:01 struggles with the guilt that he is, he grieves? 21:03 Absolutely grieves. 21:04 In fact... 21:06 Does he go through a grieving? 21:07 He does. How does he get out of it? 21:09 Well, one thing that I see happening 21:12 and I'm really thrilled to see this. 21:14 There are more and more sites for men to go to 21:18 and when men are with other men that have gone through it 21:25 just like when any kind of group setting 21:27 when you are with other people 21:29 who've experienced the same trauma, 21:31 it's making an impact 21:33 and these men are able to pull this up out of the deep 21:36 and they realized they're similar experiences. 21:40 And they are able to share their pain. 21:42 In fact, I wanted to read you this letter 21:44 I got from a gentleman. 21:46 Please do. 21:48 I won't read the whole letter but this, I highlighted parts 21:50 and I wanted you to hear 'cause he said, 21:53 "I have wept, I have prayed and thankfully 21:57 I have decided to take some level 21:58 of action for me personally. 22:01 I will be dedicating my baby." 22:04 And he was referring to God, "He knows I have wept often." 22:08 Was this the baby that's been aborted? 22:09 This is a man who is post-abortive, right. 22:13 "He knows that I have wept often, 22:14 referring to God, 22:16 "and afresh after reading your story 22:18 and reflecting on mine and I have repented of my sin, 22:23 nothing I can do will bring back that child." 22:27 And the reason I'm sharing this with you is because 22:30 I do feel like there are men in the viewing audience 22:34 who wrestle with this. 22:35 I, both of us have had experiences 22:39 and one gentleman came up to me, 22:43 he didn't know my story and he said, 22:46 "My grown daughters won't talk to me 22:49 and I believe it's because I had an abortion 22:51 when I was in college." 22:53 Just out of the blue, you know, 22:55 how that resurfaces that unresolved issue. 22:59 you know, this is just re-emphasizes last program that 23:03 where we talked about the church. 23:05 The church is supposed to be a voice in the wilderness. 23:07 It's supposed to have a voice 23:09 in this is such a big issue in the society 23:11 and it's so deep buried in people's hearts 23:13 that it just doesn't make sense from God's perspective 23:16 that the church just ignore the issue 23:17 and put it in the closet 23:19 that we need to be talking about the issue, 23:20 we need to be able to reach out to people, 23:22 we need to have resources, we need to have ministries, 23:25 we need to have discussions and answers 23:27 so that women who are struggling 23:29 and men who are struggling 23:31 will have somewhere to go to resolve 23:36 and to bring healing to some of the deepest wounds. 23:40 I mean, I can't think of, my children 23:41 are more important to me than life itself 23:43 and to my wife and if I would have had 23:46 or a Christian would have had an abortion, 23:48 I mean, the trauma would be deep in me and in her 23:52 and we would need help 23:54 and what better place to go than to the church 23:58 that God's plan is 24:00 that it tells the truth in a loving way 24:04 and is able to minister to people like Jesus did 24:08 and Jesus wants to help everybody with whatever sin 24:11 whatever crisis anybody is going through. 24:13 That's right. This makes perfect sense to me. 24:15 I appreciate that you raised the point of the church, 24:17 you know, because this idea 24:19 that it's not just a women's issue 24:21 or that is just a women's issue 24:23 really does exist in the church across the board, 24:26 across denominations and what I hope that we will, 24:31 I hope the place we will come to is that 24:34 the responsibility and culpability 24:36 for the act of abortion, 24:38 it lies at the sin of both men and women. 24:41 Men, they don't get to just walk away, they don't. 24:45 The responsibility for what she had to go through 24:48 walking through that abortion alone, 24:51 the spiritual repercussions that she suffering 24:56 that lies at the feet of both men and women. 24:59 There are numbers upon numbers of men who have stood aside, 25:05 while girlfriends, wives, sisters, daughters 25:08 had to go through that experience alone 25:10 and the message of value, the message of redemption, 25:14 the message of... 25:16 Life, forgiveness. 25:18 And forgiveness, it needs to be heard 25:20 by both men and women 25:22 and you think about men being leaders in the home 25:25 and in the church. 25:28 Our men bear such a high end responsibility 25:31 as our leaders in the home, leaders in the family 25:33 and the leaders of the church 25:35 that to be a voice on this issue, 25:38 that their voices would be louder, 25:40 then even women's voices in saying, 25:43 we've been divinely ordained to protect, to defend 25:47 and we are going to take up that calling boldly in love 25:52 that seek to defend the weakest and most vulnerable among us. 25:56 I got it. 25:57 The lights are on and as you're talking it seems, 26:00 it sounds to me, it's not just a women's issue, 26:03 it's not just a men's issue, it's a church issue as well 26:06 that the church just like you said 26:09 there is sin with the women and the men 26:11 but it sounds to me that there can be sin 26:14 with the church in not dealing with the issue 26:17 and in not reaching out a helping hand 26:19 to those who need God and His love in this crisis. 26:24 Well, we're out of time. 26:25 I'm gonna wind up with a Bible verse, 26:28 especially to the men 26:29 and this is in 1st Timothy, chapter 6, verse 11, 26:33 the Bible says, "But you, O man of God, 26:37 flee from all these things." 26:38 concerning immorality, "and pursue righteousness," 26:41 do what's right, 26:42 whatever the situation you are in 26:44 "and godliness," live a God-lead life 26:46 as according to God's plan you'll save yourself 26:48 years of heartache and "faith and love," 26:52 God's love, Jesus' love, 26:53 we're supposed to be the channels for Jesus, 26:56 what would Jesus do in these situations. 26:59 "And patience and gentleness." 27:03 We need to come close to those that are hurting. 27:05 We need to be men, we need to take a stand, 27:07 we need to do what's right so God can bless us 27:10 and use us as His hands and His heart in a world 27:14 that is just falling apart because of sin. 27:18 Men, may God help us. 27:20 Dianne Wagner and Antionette Duck 27:22 share a powerful life changing information 27:24 in this 13 Part series, The Abortion Controversy. 27:28 To order this six and half hour of DVD set for $34. 95, 27:33 call 1.800.782.4253, that's 1.800.782.4253 27:40 or you can write to White Horse Media, 27:42 PO Box 1139, Newport, Washington 99156 27:46 or order online at whitehorsemedia.com. |
Revised 2015-08-27