Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host)
Series Code: TAC
Program Code: TAC000009A
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00:08 Sex, it is a wonderful gift from God,
00:13 but it can become a terrible curse 00:15 if it's not entered into responsibly. 00:18 That's our topic next on the Abortion Controversy. 00:50 Thank you for tuning in to part 9 00:52 of the 13 part series call the Abortion Controversy. 00:55 I'm Pastor Steve Wohlberg, I've been interviewing 00:57 Dianne Wagner and Antionette Duck. 01:00 They work together for a ministry called Mafgia 01:05 that is focusing on helping women and shedding light 01:08 into the abortion and tragedy. 01:11 We've been dealing with a lot of subjects. 01:13 We've been talking about women, babies, life and death. 01:17 And our focus in this segment is "The Sexual Revolution, 01:21 Insights from History." 01:24 So, ladies, it's your time again to get us started. 01:29 We've talked about this before 01:31 so we got a lot of ground to cover, 01:32 couple of thousands of years. 01:34 That's right. 01:35 So let's get started. 01:37 Well, you know, abortion is certainly 01:39 been a part of history and so what I'll start with, 01:42 I guess it's just a breakdown first of ancient history. 01:45 Okay. 01:46 The first documented evidence 01:49 of abortion is 1550 B.C. in Egypt. 01:53 The Ebers Papyrus talked about types of abortion. 01:57 Now, it was 11th century B.C. 01:59 that the Assyrian Code Assura, yeah, Code of Assura. 02:04 It was the earliest ban on abortion 02:07 and women would be put to death if they had an abortion 02:09 without their husband's permission. 02:11 It was okay if they had their husband's permission. 02:14 Well, you know, I never learned any of this in seminary 02:16 is because we never had a class on abortion in history and so. 02:19 No, well, I can't say I did. 02:21 The ancient Persians, I thought was interesting 02:24 the priest and the doctors condemned it. 02:27 They looked at it as cutting out the roots of life 02:29 and the most important blessing of God. 02:33 That was fascination. Good for the Persians. 02:34 Now the Greeks have the dubious distinction 02:36 of being the first to demand abortion. 02:39 Any women over the age of 40 was required to abort 02:42 and their thinking was, 02:44 it was for the good of the state. 02:45 Now, isn't that similar to China, 02:47 I mean don't they have abortion laws where so many-- 02:50 Now they did. Yeah, that-- 02:52 A one child rule. 02:53 Right, so if you have more than one child then-- 02:56 And women, the women normally 02:58 are targeted very much for abortion. 02:59 The pressure is tremendous to abort. 03:02 But within the Roman Empire initially 03:04 everybody had access to it, the rich, the poor, 03:07 the slave, the free. 03:09 But by the third century, it was abortion became a crime, 03:13 but of course there was no punishment 03:16 as long as the father of the child said it was okay. 03:19 Now, you mentioned China. 03:21 You know, ancient China, there was a controversy 03:24 as far as pro and con but there are confusions 03:28 and the Buddhist and the majority of the people 03:31 opposed it, they actually opposed abortion. 03:34 One of their folklore in, Chinese folklore 03:37 is that 5000 years ago, 03:38 the women would drink warm mercury to abort, 03:42 so we know it was there, it was-- 03:45 that just grieved me, 03:46 the thought of drinking warm mercury 03:48 to be that desperate, you know. 03:50 But it's been going on for a long, long time. 03:53 Yes, it has and then our American history, 03:55 if you're interested in that. 03:57 I thought that was fascinating. 03:58 I looked into that and in the early years 04:01 of our American history, it wasn't so much the laws 04:05 as much as the community and the religious community 04:08 and what they would do if a young lady 04:10 found herself pregnant, 04:12 the community would pressure that young man 04:14 either to marry that woman and make it right 04:18 or to provide financially for her. 04:21 But sad to say as American expanded, 04:23 a lot of the support systems 04:25 for these young ladies faded, disappeared. 04:27 And so there were some good things about that, 04:30 the Massachusetts Bay Colony, 04:31 I've been reading about history of Roger Williams 04:34 and the morality and the strictness 04:36 and some of the big mistakes that were made back then 04:39 but it sounds like that was a good, a good role. 04:41 They recognized that. They recognized that. 04:43 Man to own up and marry the woman. 04:45 But as America did expand, you know, 04:48 women did find herself in trouble. 04:51 There wasn't the support system available 04:53 and abortion did get a foothold. 04:57 After that the-- because of that the morality 05:01 of America relaxed and the social pressure 05:03 became less of a deterrent. 05:05 The social pressure, the religious community, 05:08 they were the ones in the very beginning 05:10 that put the pressure on. 05:11 Now, it was interesting to me that it was actually 05:14 legislation that the law started being passed 05:19 to against abortion at that time. 05:22 What time are we talking? 05:23 We're talking early 1800s, early and late 1700s. 05:29 Okay. 05:30 I have heard that in the 1800s 05:32 that the majority of physicians were against abortion. 05:36 Oh, yeah, in fact I get to that. 05:37 You know, it was fascinating because the legislation 05:41 had an impact but the moral relaxation 05:44 had such an impact that people began 05:46 to defend abortion in the public, you know, 05:49 it became an issue that people started accepting. 05:53 That was interesting to me 05:55 because in the mid 1800s two things 05:58 that really made an impact on rise in abortion 06:00 was the explosion of prostitution, 06:05 it became big commercial industry 06:08 and of course the abortion industry went on rise. 06:14 And the other one was the spiritualism. 06:19 You know, in the mid 1800s 06:20 there was a spiritist revolution 06:23 and because of that, yeah, it had an impact on people. 06:26 People would throw off their-- 06:27 The Fox Sisters-- 06:29 In that period of time, and it had an impact, 06:31 it was-- I look at it 06:33 as a sexual mini revolution then because a lot of people 06:37 threw off restrains and that had an impact 06:39 of course on the abortions in this country. 06:42 And they increased. 06:43 And they increased actually. 06:46 What I found also was that the churches, 06:49 they seem to be crippled, their voices, 06:51 they didn't make a statement at this time 06:54 which I thought was very interesting and sad. 06:56 They had lost their voice. 06:58 I think we're seeing that today too in a lot of ways. 07:01 And we are unfortunately. 07:02 Their voices have been lost. Yeah. 07:04 And then, you know, we had the social pressure 07:06 and the religious pressure and then 07:08 we had the laws and then what I thought 07:10 was very fascinating, 07:11 that's when the American medical associations stood, 07:15 you know, stood, stepped in. 07:17 And they were the ones who pushed 07:19 for very strict antiabortion laws. 07:23 They considered it immoral and dangerous 07:26 which I was very glad to see you know because-- 07:28 Dangerous to the life of the mother. 07:30 Yeah, it was a dangerous practice 07:31 but also immoral, 07:33 and I like that that they looked at it that way. 07:37 So as any compromise would have it, 07:41 by 1908 it became apparent that the women in particular, 07:47 they wanted an aggressive, they wanted their abortion, 07:51 they wanted their freedom for abortion. 07:54 And the thinking of the day was the notion of compassion 07:57 shifted from helping people do what was morally right 08:00 to helping people do what seemed right. 08:04 For them. That's exactly right. 08:07 And a perfect example of this is Margaret Sanger. 08:11 Margaret Sanger is known, you know, 08:13 for coining the phrase birth control. 08:16 And she is the one who believed that birth control would be 08:20 the key to a sexual liberation or a sexual revolution. 08:27 And so where we stand now 08:29 is in 1973 in America abortion was legalized, 08:35 it was legalized through Roe v. Wade, 08:37 and there was a companion case 08:39 that went along with the Doe v. Bolton. 08:41 What Roe said is that abortion was going to be legal 08:44 through all nine months of pregnancy. 08:46 In the first trimester no restrictions, 08:48 in the second trimester no undue burdens 08:51 could be placed on the woman to her having an abortion. 08:53 In the third trimester you could restrict abortion 08:56 but you have to include an exception 08:58 for the health of the mother. 09:00 Well, on the same day when Roe is decided, 09:02 Doe v. Bolton, the Supreme Court 09:04 also decided Doe v. Bolton. 09:06 And what Doe said it laid out a definition of health. 09:12 The court decided that health was to encompass, 09:15 mental health, emotional health, socioeconomic health, 09:20 any sort of kind of health 09:23 that could possibly conceive of could be fit 09:26 into that definition, and so what-- 09:28 Having a good day is you're healthy 09:31 if you're having a good day. 09:32 Right. Right. 09:34 So any kind of guilt would be contrary to health. 09:37 Right. 09:38 If, if, well, and we see that the effect 09:43 that these two decisions have had have 09:45 open the door to abortion on demand. 09:47 Now tell me, the '73 when Roe v. Wade 09:51 wasn't that really in the wake of specially 09:55 the 60s sexual revolution of the 60s 09:58 when it really mounted and so wasn't there, 10:00 was there some kind of pressure 10:02 that was put on the government to really make this legal 10:06 because now the doors have just been wide open with the 60s, 10:11 and so you have a lot of women that are pregnant 10:14 and they want a way out quickly. 10:17 Right. 10:18 Absolutely and what we see now is that, 10:21 you know, in America we have over a million abortions 10:24 that are performed every year 10:26 which breaks down to roughly maybe 1 every 30 seconds, 10:31 it's absolutely phenomenal the rate of abortion now 10:34 that we see in our own country 10:37 and so it is really fascinating. 10:39 I'm glad you brought that up. 10:41 It'd came on the tail end of the sexual revolution 10:46 because we see where we are and people think, 10:50 oh, abortion is only legal through the first trimester 10:52 or that many aren't actually being performed 10:55 but actually a phenomenal number of abortions 10:58 are taking place in our country 10:59 and it's really quite remarkable to understand 11:02 how we got here, the mindsets that won't play. 11:04 And it's not just in our country too 11:06 like we bread from the stats from how do we say 11:09 the Alan Guttmacher Institute 11:10 which is the research wing of plan parenthood. 11:13 Yes. 11:15 I believe they quote the World Health Organization 11:17 saying that the numbers are getting closer 11:19 to 45 million per year worldwide. 11:22 That's right. 11:23 Right, so we're talking about a big issue 11:25 and I do think it's very significant 11:27 when you just look at history and deal 11:28 with the abortionist today then we look at the 60s 11:32 and the rise of just free sex and then women getting pregnant 11:36 and then that was connected to the 70s 11:39 and the Roe versus Wade decision in '73. 11:42 That's right just as she had said, you know, 11:45 the climax was these laws being passed, 11:48 so how did we get there, you know. 11:51 And as it says insights from history, 11:54 as you understand history, you can see 11:56 why it would develop into the explosion 11:58 of the sexual revolution that we did have in the 60s. 12:02 But earlier in the 1900s and the early 1900s 12:06 many felt like our country was going through a crisis 12:09 because there were huge numbers of immigrants coming here 12:13 and the streets were filling up, 12:14 the buildings were filling up 12:16 and people were very afraid of overpopulation. 12:19 And there were legitimate concerns, 12:22 so there's one lady that was very active 12:25 in the early 1900s Margaret Sanger 12:27 that we referred and actually she was brought up in a family 12:32 where the mother had, had 11 children, 12:34 she had 7 miscarriages, 12:37 exhausted, and Margaret grew up, 12:39 you know, grew up all seeing this, in fact even-- 12:42 She saw her mom-- 12:44 Yeah, and the consequences 12:45 of just one child after another. 12:47 The difficulty in raising all these kids. 12:48 Exactly. 12:49 In fact even after she left her home, 12:51 her father called her back to help with the children 12:54 because her mother by that time was ill. 12:56 You know, she had worn herself out. 12:58 So that made a huge impact. 13:00 Well, I can imagine and we only have two. 13:02 I can imagine having Margaret's mom has 10. 13:05 That's right. 13:06 She was impacted by that personally 13:08 in her own home but then later in her life 13:11 when she became a nurse 13:12 she worked in the slums of New York 13:15 and she saw a very legitimate concern. 13:19 There were children being born every year or year and half. 13:23 Their mothers were exhausted. 13:25 They weren't being properly taken care of. 13:27 They would end up in the streets, you know, 13:31 she saw... 13:35 She just saw the deterioration of women and children, family. 13:40 She had a real burden for that. 13:42 The thing is, it was her approach on it, 13:46 you know, the best explain 13:48 it would be to read a few of her thoughts. 13:51 You know, I can imagine 13:52 if the family is organized and the father is responsible 13:55 that you know, there are families 13:56 that have a dozen kids. 13:58 And they put all the kids to work, you know, 14:01 under God's blessing and leadership, 14:03 it works out great, 14:05 but in other situations it's very difficult. 14:07 That's good because it's not so much the size of the family, 14:10 it's who is being responsible within that family, 14:13 and that's a big key. 14:15 But these were some of the things she believed. 14:17 She believed that "Marriage laws did away 14:20 with the freedom of women 14:23 by enforcing upon her a continuous sexual slavery 14:27 and a compulsory motherhood.'' 14:29 Now, these are the roots 14:31 of a sexual revolution, a storm brewing. 14:34 Yes. This is how she saw it. 14:37 Another quote that I really want to share 14:40 because it helps you understand 14:41 how we got to the point of a sexual revolution. 14:44 "The creators of overpopulation are the women, 14:47 who, producing the multitudes who will bring about 14:51 the next tragedy of civilization." 14:54 She saw this as, you know, huge crisis. 14:58 This one is my last quote. 15:00 "The most merciful thing that a large family does 15:03 to one of its infant members is to kill it." 15:08 That's what Margaret thinks. 15:09 This was her solution to this crisis 15:12 that was brewing in the early 1900s. 15:14 Now, what's fascinating is that her rallying cry 15:17 became no God's, no masters. 15:20 Her, the mindset and the mindset 15:22 that really took root in the sexual revolution 15:24 was that women were looking for a quality, 15:27 they were looking to be equal with men finally. 15:31 But they took on this mindset of no gods, 15:35 no masters, we're our own masters. 15:38 We want free sex. 15:39 We want free love and it would lead them 15:43 to make horrible, 15:46 very regrettable decisions in regard to the unborn. 15:50 And so you have this mindset, 15:53 this thinking and then there was another woman, 15:56 she was older than Margaret Sanger, 15:58 she died in 2015. 16:02 1915. 16:03 Oh, yeah, thank you. Sure. 16:05 I know who you're talking about so. 16:06 1915 and she was Ellen White who is a godly woman 16:11 and she had a lot of godly counsel for young ladies. 16:13 And she is the most prolific woman female writer in history. 16:18 Well, I love her writings so I can see why. 16:21 But she confirmed the same problem, 16:25 she saw it before even Margaret saw it. 16:28 There was a problem of women having children, 16:31 children, children, you know, and women, 16:33 their health not being taking care of. 16:36 She even urges the husbands to take care of your wives. 16:40 You know, and she even talked about the sexual use 16:45 that men would use with no restraint 16:48 of their women and their wives. 16:50 You know, so she really identified, 16:53 she would talk about the children, 16:55 you know, that weren't being properly taken care 16:58 of would become destitute and, 17:01 you know, products that society would have take care of, 17:04 there's someone else would have to take the burden, 17:06 so she really came down hard on the very same problem. 17:10 The thing with her is that she didn't have 17:13 the mindset of Margaret Sanger. 17:15 Her mindset was no master but God. 17:19 Amen. 17:20 So it was to the Lord where she got her strength 17:22 and it was really wonderful her view on, 17:25 viewpoint on womanhood because she wanted the women 17:30 to rise to the level 17:32 that the Lord had intended for them. 17:34 It wasn't the matter of trying to take the man's role. 17:38 Explore and rise to the power 17:41 that the Lord has given you as a women. 17:44 The influence that you can have not just on your family 17:47 but on the community. 17:49 So she was very, very encouraging 17:52 as far as what women can do for themselves 17:54 and become without constantly trying to feel like, 17:59 they got to be a man. 18:00 Right and when you read her writing, 18:02 she very strongly valued not only mothers and fathers 18:06 and children but the prenatal influences 18:09 on the developing child that she is-- 18:12 I've read some of those statements 18:13 and they're very, very strong. 18:14 That ties in with, you know, taking care of the women, 18:17 don't have child after child, you know, keep her health 18:20 because of that baby, you know, when you get pregnant 18:23 with that baby, you want to be healthy 18:25 and you want to be able to not have to be 18:27 so burden with so many other children 18:29 that you can't take care of yourself. 18:33 We've talked a little bit about the parallels 18:35 between ancient days what happened 18:37 in Israel in the Old Testament and modern days, 18:40 what's happening when we look at the big picture. 18:43 Let's explore that little bit? 18:45 Do you want to...? 18:47 Sure. 18:48 You know, what's really unfortunate about, 18:51 unfortunate in this comparison is that as a culture, 18:54 as a society, we didn't really embraced 18:56 the view of Ellen White. 18:58 We really didn't embrace the views of Margaret Sanger. 19:00 And we see that as a culture, we have for women 19:07 that freedom is found through sex. 19:11 If you look at our entertainment, 19:13 if you look at what we exalt and what we glorify. 19:16 Freedom has been found through sex, in sexual exploration. 19:21 It hasn't been found as a man would find freedom 19:24 typically in conquering or in overcoming 19:29 or achieving in some way. 19:31 And so for women their identity has been tied very closely 19:35 to sexual expression and sexual "liberation." 19:40 We see that with pornography, the explosion of pornography 19:45 that it truly does degrade women 19:48 because it is so very much about the self. 19:53 The woman is there simply 19:55 for the gratification of the man. 19:57 And what has happened is in claiming my body, 20:03 my choice, I have the right to have sex in this way, 20:07 I have the right to have sex the way man have sex, 20:10 no strains, no responsibility. 20:12 It's literally led to the degradation 20:14 of women as a gender. 20:18 A man can, as we said before, he can have sex with the women, 20:21 she can become pregnant and he can utterly reject her 20:25 and just walk away. 20:26 And what's amazing is that we are calling this freedom. 20:30 It's absolutely phenomenal. 20:33 The second part to this is the idea of equality. 20:36 Woman says, I'm equal to men, 20:38 I can have sex in the same way that men do 20:42 because again with that ability to walk away, 20:46 I was watching a sort of documentary 20:48 recently called irreplaceable, 20:50 and there was a speaker on there 20:54 who made the most incredible point about... 20:58 about the fact that when women decided 21:02 we are equal to men, we need the same right as men 21:05 and for good reasons 21:07 because women were being oppressed. 21:09 They were being mistreated but in trying to grasp 21:14 and attain that equality, they said, 21:18 "We're going to become like men 21:21 and we're going to get rid of what makes us different." 21:24 True equality, it's based on everyone 21:28 being accepted as they are. 21:30 We're all different, we're not carbon copies of each other, 21:33 but we're all equal. 21:35 What women did in the sexual revolution 21:38 is they said we're going to kill off 21:40 what makes us different. 21:41 What made them different? They could become pregnant. 21:45 They could have children and so instead of saying, 21:49 instead of demanding that they were accepted 21:51 despite their differences, they said, 21:54 "We'll get rid of kill off our differences to be equal." 21:58 And now we're at a point where 45 million babies 22:03 around the world are being aborted, I mean it's-- 22:08 So this is where we've come to which is just, 22:13 it's terrific and I want to kind of turn 22:15 into the spiritual direction, there is a verse 22:19 that I have in front of me from Revolution Chapter 12, 22:23 lets say verse 12 says, "Therefore rejoice, 22:26 O heavens, and you who dwell in them. 22:28 Woe to the inhabitant of the earth and the sea, 22:31 for the devil has come down to you, 22:33 having great wrath, 22:34 because he knows he has a short time." 22:36 And there is another verse in John 22:38 where Jesus talks about 22:40 what the devil's really all about. 22:42 John 10:10, "The thief does not come except to steal, 22:45 and to kill, and to destroy. 22:47 I have come that they may have life, 22:48 and have it more abundantly." 22:50 And I just can't help 22:51 but think that in the light of you know, 22:54 the big picture, the cosmic controversy 22:56 between God and devil and if you look at the history 22:58 of all of this and now the magnitude 22:59 of what's happening, I just can't help 23:02 but think that from God's perspective, 23:05 you know, Satan is really, he is really, 23:09 he is doing a number on us. 23:10 He is doing a number on humanity. 23:12 He is attacking women. He is attacking men. 23:14 He is attacking the home. 23:15 He is attacking the family and he is attacking the babies, 23:19 you know, little babies that come out 23:21 and the unborn who haven't come out 23:23 yet the whole thing is part of Satan's wrath 23:28 against humanity to destroy. 23:31 And God's goal is to restore to put to make women, women, 23:36 as they are meant to be and to find the joy of that 23:39 and to make men, men, that they are meant to be 23:42 and so the children will grow up in homes 23:46 where they're happy. 23:47 God's plan is being fulfilled. 23:49 And this is all part of the cosmic, 23:51 it's got to be part of the cosmic controversy 23:53 between Jesus Christ and Satan, 23:56 that's what the Bible reveals to us. 23:59 Good and evil. 24:00 Yeah, good and evil. 24:02 That's right and the battle is intense, 24:03 I mean it's so intense and you just look at that 24:06 like you said the sexual revolution, 24:09 you know, and I know that we don't really 24:12 have a lot of time to go into this 24:14 but if you look at the Old Testament, 24:15 one of the things that the devil got 24:18 the Israelites into was even sacrificing their children. 24:22 You know, I have a number of-- 24:23 I've just done some reading on this 24:25 and in Deuteronomy 12:31, 24:29 "They were burning their sons and their daughters 24:31 in the fire to their God's." 24:34 In Ezekiel 16:21 God said, "You have slain my children." 24:39 And in Leviticus 20:4 he tells the Israelites 24:43 "Don't hide your eyes from this." 24:45 And you know we certainly don't want to say 24:48 that every women that is in crisis 24:50 that is struggling as you were struggling is therefore, 24:55 you know, consciously offering her child 24:57 as a sacrifice to an Old Testament God. 25:00 We certainly don't want to say that 25:02 because Jesus loves, He loves us all. 25:04 But I just can't help but think that there is a-- 25:07 there is a parallel between 25:09 what the devil did in ancient times with Israel 25:13 and then what's happening now all around the world, 25:16 it's just a-- it's such a horrible thing, 25:18 and it also reminds me of a verse in Genesis 25:22 where after Cain killed Abel that God said 25:26 where's your brother to Cain. 25:28 Where's your brother? 25:29 The voice of your brother's blood is crying out to me 25:32 from the ground and God must-- 25:34 He just must weep, you know, He weeps over the women, 25:36 He weeps over the men, He weeps over the babies, 25:38 He weeps over all of earth's history 25:40 and I just can't wait until sin is gone 25:44 and all of this is over forever 25:46 and we'll be with Jesus in the happy place forever. 25:50 That's right. 25:51 As you go down the list, everything valuable to God, 25:55 the devil is trying to destroy one way or the other. 25:59 And he is undermining God's original plan. 26:02 That's right. 26:03 The original plan for the nobility of a women 26:07 and the nobility of a man and the happiness 26:10 of having children and it's just, you know, 26:13 the devil is-- I'm looking forward 26:15 to him being gone forever. 26:19 Yes, me too. 26:20 I really am. Me too. 26:22 Well, we're down at the end of this segment. 26:25 I'd like to again read the Bible verse in John 10:10 26:30 where Jesus said that the thief does not come except to steal, 26:34 and to kill, and to destroy. 26:36 I have come that they might have life, 26:39 and that they might have it more abundantly." 26:42 Now, the devil, he is a killer, he is a destroyer 26:44 and Jesus is a life giver and he loves us, 26:47 He has given life to us. 26:49 He gives life to the unborn 26:52 through the miracle of conception 26:54 and then eventually birth 26:56 and God's plan is the best plan. 26:58 And if we strayed away from that plan, 27:00 no matter what we've done, we need to know 27:02 that the devil is the bad guy and that God is the good guy 27:07 if you want to say it that way, and that He loves us, 27:10 and He only wants life for us. 27:13 He wants goodness and internal happiness, 27:15 so may God help us to follow His plan, 27:19 it's for our own good. 27:22 Steve Wohlberg's latest pocket book 27:24 "Hidden Holocaust" is a must read 27:27 for anyone contemplating an abortion 27:29 or who has had one. 27:31 While Steve shares the biblical position 27:33 on this controversial subject, 27:35 he also presents a message of hope and healing. 27:38 To get your free copy of the pocket book, 27:40 "Hidden Holocaust'' just call the toll free number 27:43 on the screen and order your copy today 27:45 or write to White Horse Media, 27:47 PO Box 1139, NewPort, Washington 99156. |
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