Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Dianne Wagner, Antionette Duck
Series Code: TAC
Program Code: TAC000010A
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00:08 Abortion, the Ten Commandments, Sin, Love, Grace!
00:13 We're going to try to figure all this out next on 00:15 "The Abortion Controversy" 00:46 Welcome back to "The Abortion Controversy" 00:49 My guests, once again, are Dianne Wagner, 00:51 and Antionette Duck, they are together coworkers 00:55 of a ministry called, "Mafgia" that is designed 00:59 and passionately motivated to shed light into the 01:03 midst of the difficult abortion nightmare. 01:07 This is part 10 which is somewhat significant 01:10 because the title of this program is called 01:13 "The Ten Commandment Connection" 01:16 We are going to inject into this whole issue the 01:20 importance of the Law of God. 01:22 Ladies, again, thank you as always. 01:25 It's been great getting to know you. 01:27 We've had a lot of discussions prior to our 01:30 time together and this is just wonderful. 01:32 So we're going to take a look at the Ten Commandments. 01:35 And Antionette, I think you have a verse that you were 01:38 going to read just to get the ball rolling. 01:41 Yes, 1 John 3:4, "Everyone who sins breaks the law." 01:46 "Everyone who sins breaks the law." 01:48 And we've been talking about just the whole issue of 01:51 abortion and is this really a sin, 01:56 does it have anything to do with God's law? 01:58 That verse says that whoever commits a sin breaks the law. 02:03 This is one of the two big tables of stone 02:06 that I carry around with me sometimes when I hold seminars. 02:10 This is the second table of the law, 02:12 and we don't really have time to go into all of 02:14 the commandments, but the significant ones 02:17 for our discussion is #6 which God wrote with His own finger. 02:23 "You shall not kill," and then #7 02:26 which He wrote with His own finger, 02:27 "You shall not commit adultery." 02:30 Now I have here a book that we're all familiar with. 02:35 Not everybody is familiar with, it's a book called, 02:37 "Patriarchs and Prophets," and on page 308, 02:41 the author zeros in on commandment #6, 02:44 and commandment #7. 02:46 Which really is what Jesus did in His ministry, 02:49 in Matthew 5, He took a close look at the 7th commandment, 02:52 a close look at the 6th commandment, 02:54 and showed their depth. 02:55 So here is commandment #6. "You shall not kill." 03:00 "All acts of injustice that tend to shorten life. 03:04 The spirit of hatred and revenge or the indulgence 03:08 of any passion that leads to injurious acts toward others 03:12 or even causes us to wish them harm, 03:15 for whoever hates his brother is a murderer," 03:17 quoting the New Testament. 03:18 "A selfish neglect of caring for the needy or suffering, 03:21 all self-indulgence or unnecessary deprivation, 03:26 or excessive labor - that's working too hard, too much, 03:30 that tends to injure health. 03:32 All of these are to a greater or less degree violations 03:36 of the 6th commandment." 03:38 So wow - that's a lot of deep applications, 03:42 and then for commandment #7, "You shall not commit adultery." 03:46 This commandment forbids not only acts of impurity, 03:48 but sensual thoughts and desires, 03:51 or any practice that tends to excite them." 03:54 "Purity is demanded, not only in the outward life, 03:56 but in the secret intents and emotions of the heart." 04:00 Again, wow. 04:02 "Christ, who taught the far-reaching obligation 04:04 of the Law of God declared that the evil thought 04:07 or look was as truly sin as the unlawful deed." 04:12 So I've read this many times and it has really convicted me 04:16 because as I look back at my life, I think we all can look 04:20 at our lives, and we can see violations of #6 and #7, 04:23 and many of these Commandments and, for me and then we'll turn 04:29 to you and have you share your stories. 04:31 For me, as I look back at my teenage B.C. days, 04:36 Before Christ, my promiscuous days that I'm thoroughly 04:40 ashamed of before I became a Christian, 04:42 I was breaking the 7th commandment on all sides. 04:47 I was living just an immoral life. 04:51 I was involved with women, you know, 04:54 it just was not a good scene. 04:55 And, it seems to me that in the majority of cases, 05:02 there is the sexual immorality first and that can result 05:08 in an unwanted pregnancy which can lead to the temptation 05:12 to breaking the 6th commandment which has to do with killing. 05:17 And I also have a definition here that I just read 05:20 today from Miriam-Webster's online Dictionary 05:25 for the word "kill." 05:27 It says, "To cause the death of a person," 05:29 and there are other parts to that definition, 05:31 but that's the main part that spoke to me. 05:34 So, breaking the 7th commandment 05:37 leading to breaking the 6th commandment, 05:39 and as we discussed, one of the big issues in this whole 05:43 controversy is... Is abortion really a violation 05:48 of the 6th commandment or not? 05:50 And based on these definitions, 05:51 all acts that tend to shortening life, 05:54 it fits what's happening in the world, 05:59 especially when we think of 45 million babies 06:03 being aborted every year around the world. 06:06 So, tell us your stories and tie this in, 06:10 and give us some new insights. 06:12 As I've shared in an earlier segment, 06:15 I, myself, was rescued from abortion which was 06:19 absolutely phenomenal because people who believed 06:21 in the value and sanctity of life believed in my value, 06:24 they believed in my mother's value, they interceded, 06:27 and through their intercession, I was rescued, 06:30 and my mother was rescued, not just from having the 06:35 abortion, but in the preservation of her 06:37 spiritual soundness, which was absolutely remarkable. 06:40 Our home, though, was one that was very frightening. 06:45 It could be quite scary. 06:47 My father could be very violent. 06:50 And, as I grew up, I grew angry, I grew bitter, 06:53 I grew resentful and I began to just blame the Lord, 06:59 I really believed that He owed me. 07:01 There was a lot of ingratitude that took root in my heart, 07:03 and that's the lens that I began to see through, 07:06 and the lens that I began to choose through. 07:09 As I got older, got into college and began to experiment 07:12 sexually, I really ran away from the Lord, 07:16 and certainly away from His plan, 07:18 and away from the parameters, the hedge of protection 07:22 that He has established for us. 07:24 Did you grow up having a knowledge of the 07:26 Ten Commandments, were you aware 07:28 as you were growing up? 07:29 I certainly wasn't, I didn't really say this, 07:31 but I want to add to what I said - that Romans 13:10 says 07:35 that "love is the fulfilling of the Law," 07:37 and that God's Law really is a law of love 07:39 that's designed to protect us. 07:41 Like you said, "those parameters," 07:42 God wants what's best for us, so I was just curious 07:45 if you grew up with a knowledge of those parameters 07:47 because I definitely did not. 07:50 Yes, I did... I did grow up with a knowledge of those parameters. 07:53 And, I wouldn't say that my woundedness or my 07:57 deep need, I really went looking for the love that 08:02 I had not received from that fatherly relationship. 08:05 And it's not an excuse, but I do think it's something 08:09 that we need to understand, that there are driving 08:12 motivating factors that push us looking for love, 08:16 significance, value, purpose. 08:19 Thankfully though, the Lord did remember me, 08:22 and brought me back to Himself, 08:24 but it was in surrendering again to His standard, 08:29 and realizing that He has given me that 08:32 hedge of protection because He created me. 08:34 He knows me very well. 08:36 And the law, as you said, it's not to 08:42 cause me pain in some way, it is a protection out of love. 08:46 Right, it's not designed to cripple us, but to set us free. 08:49 Yes... And God wants what's best for us. 08:51 And really, if you think about it... 08:53 If the whole world was sexually pure and nobody was killing 08:57 anybody, if everybody was honoring their father 09:00 and mother and not lying, and etcetera, etcetera, 09:03 it really would be a good world. 09:06 It would be... you know I've asked myself, 09:09 "Why did I do it?" 09:10 You know, here I had a great guy, my college sweetheart, 09:16 and we wanted this Christian home, like I've told you, 09:20 and why did I decide to have sex with this man 09:24 before we were married? 09:26 And you know, I had been brought up with the principles. 09:30 My mother had taught me and my sisters the importance 09:33 of being pure and how special it is to give that gift 09:39 to the man we marry some day. 09:41 I had all those and I look at the principles, 09:44 these commandments as principles to protect us. 09:48 Like we said, a hedge of protection, 09:51 a beautiful hedge of protection. 09:53 And so when I ask myself, why did I do it, 09:58 and I have to say, it's because I took my eyes off the Lord. 10:01 And when I did, I stepped outside that hedge of protection 10:06 Of course the Lord's protection is all-encompassing, 10:09 I don't want to belittle His capability. 10:11 His grace is always with us, even when we mess up. 10:14 But it is a wall of protection from the cruelty of the world. 10:20 Many times we suffer consequences because 10:24 of those decisions, and I do believe that by breaking 10:30 the 7th commandment, it put me in a position to 10:33 tumble and roll and confusion and then, of course, 10:38 the pregnancy which was causing all of that, 10:41 I just fell right into the arms 10:43 of breaking the 6th commandment; 10:45 you know, I killed an unborn child. 10:49 I really believe that by compromising in one, 10:53 we set ourselves up to compromise in another. 10:56 And it was never my intention, I never dreamed I would 11:01 be doing that, but that's what happened. 11:03 That's the reality of not keeping our eyes on 11:07 the Author of this Law. 11:09 Right and for me, again, I didn't have that picture, 11:13 so I wasn't keeping my eye on the Author 11:14 though I didn't know anything about the Law, 11:16 and it was part of the Lord's redemptive work in my life 11:22 to eventually zero me in and show me commandment #7, 11:27 #6, #5, each one of them. 11:29 I remember sitting in a room in San Francisco when I was 11:35 pastoring - I was a young pastor, just gotten out of 11:37 seminary - I was going through a lot of struggles, 11:39 and I remember meditating on the Ten Commandments... 11:43 And it was just like when I was a little kid, 11:45 I used to play pinball games, you know, you hit the little 11:48 and the ball goes bing and it lights up... 11:50 And I saw the Ten Commandments in front of my eyes. 11:52 It wasn't an actual vision, a mental picture, 11:55 and I saw them one by one, and the Holy Spirit 11:58 showed them to me deeply and it was like the pinball, 12:03 like commandment #1 lit up, commandment #5 lit up, 12:06 #10 lit up, #7 lit up... 12:07 And, as I saw that more clearly, it clarified to me 12:12 the sin that was in my life and had been in my life, 12:16 and that prepared me to understand more 12:20 and to appreciate more the grace of Jesus, 12:24 and His love in coming down here, taking my sin, 12:27 paying the price, rising from the dead and offering me 12:30 full forgiveness. 12:31 So as I see it, God used the Law showing my sin 12:34 to show me my need for a Savior, 12:36 and it was all part of bringing peace to my soul, 12:39 and it has been wonderful. Yes! 12:42 Even painful, but wonderful. 12:44 Now, we've talked about abortion in my different dimensions. 12:51 And this is, as you know, a complex subject. 12:55 And as we look at the 6th commandment, 12:57 "You shall not kill," and if you looked at the definition, 13:00 in the dictionary and in "Patriarchs and Prophets" 13:03 that it's an act that tends to shorten life, 13:06 our conscience is telling us that that's what abortion is. 13:09 But there are certain circumstances, right, that are 13:13 more difficult to deal with, and you've mentioned that you 13:17 really want to zero in on those difficult circumstances 13:22 and I think... incest, was that one of them? Rape and incest. 13:26 And then the life of a mother, so let's go. 13:30 Where do you want to start with incest? 13:33 Well, if we could talk about rape and incest in conjunction.. 13:37 When we're dealing with the topic of abortion, 13:41 I think the most difficult concern to talk about 13:47 is the idea of a woman who has been raped or 13:50 someone who suffered from an incestual relationship 13:53 and what happens if she becomes pregnant. 13:58 Steve Wagner with an organization called, 14:00 "Justice for All," I've had the opportunity to listen to him 14:02 dialog on this and I really appreciated 14:05 his perspective on it in doing work with him. 14:08 If we think about a rape situation or an 14:12 incest situation, you've had a horrible horrific injustice 14:18 that's been done to that woman or to that young girl. 14:23 There is nothing that is just about it. 14:26 It's an absolute wrong. 14:27 It's a horrible atrocity and it's a violation, 14:31 a literal plundering of her soul that she is going to 14:34 carry with her through the remainder of her life. 14:37 Now we pray that she finds healing and freedom 14:40 from that, but it will still be a part of her 14:44 for the rest of her life. 14:46 It's a complete injustice; she didn't ask for it; 14:49 she didn't do anything to deserve it. 14:51 It's something that never should have happened period. 14:55 And that's something that we need to be firm on, 15:00 that we need to accept. 15:03 It was an injustice and it never should have happened. 15:07 And, as we think about the issue, if she then becomes 15:10 pregnant, she now has to deal with a pregnancy 15:15 that has been forced upon her by a rapist. 15:19 She didn't ask to be pregnant and as she's 15:22 thinking about "What am I going to do, 15:24 how am I going to handle myself?" 15:25 you think about burden after burden, after burden 15:29 that the rapist has now heaped upon this woman. 15:32 Not just the injustice, not just the violation done 15:35 to her person, but also on top of that, 15:38 burden, after burden, after burden. 15:40 Is she a student, is she in school? 15:43 Is she going to stay in school? 15:44 Does she have a boyfriend? 15:46 Is she married? 15:47 What about the social stigma? 15:49 How is she going to tell her parents? 15:50 Who is going to pay for her life because she now has to 15:53 get prenatal care. 15:55 You have burden, after burden, after burden that has been 15:58 thrust upon this woman, and the rapist is responsible 16:02 for each and every single one. Wow 16:05 If she wants to do the right thing and bring this child 16:08 to term, she then is forced to carry a baby 16:11 for 9 months of pregnancy and she never asked to be pregnant, 16:15 and she is carrying a child 16:16 that she never asked for... So what should she do? 16:19 You said to do what's right, to bring the child 16:22 to term... that's part of the issue, isn't it? 16:25 Then what do you do? Now what? 16:27 Well I think it's about refocusing 16:29 because the question we have to ask ourselves, 16:31 when we consider burden, after burden, after burden, 16:33 that has now been placed on this woman by this man 16:36 who has committed this horrible crime, 16:39 should the child have to pay for the sins of his father? 16:43 That's not an easy question, but it's a question 16:47 that we have to be honest about; 16:49 we have to ask ourselves, honestly. 16:51 We've spoken about the value of the unborn in Scripture. 16:55 We've spoken about the value of the unborn through science. 16:58 We've spoken about it, segment, after segment, 17:01 after segment, and this is not an easy issue. 17:05 There is no way to make it just. 17:07 There's no way to make it right. 17:08 It's simply difficult, but we have to be willing to be 17:12 honest with ourselves about the value of that child. 17:17 Do circumstances of conception determine value? 17:21 Great point... so it's not the circumstances. 17:23 The child has intrinsic value, therefore, regardless 17:26 of the fact that in spite of everything of what the 17:29 rapist has done, that baby is not responsible 17:34 for what the rapist has did. 17:35 That baby has intrinsic value and... That's right. 17:39 That life needs to be respected and if the woman... 17:42 I'm assuming if the woman is not ready to 17:45 be a mom, then at least adoption would be another 17:48 option, rather than having two victims instead of just one. 17:51 Most certainly, and many do choose to adopt that baby out. 17:54 They realize they are not in a position to keep a child. 17:58 But I did some research into this because it is a very 18:03 sensitive, hard situation and so many times, 18:06 those of us who do value the life and discourage abortion, 18:11 you know, it's not an option that's going to be good for you. 18:15 They look at us as being heartless, but really, 18:18 if you think about it... You mean when you say 18:20 "don't abort the baby..." Don't abort, then you're being 18:22 heartless, you don't care about this woman. 18:24 Yes, indeed, and that's why Antionette wanted 18:27 to establish that right off. 18:29 We recognize that this is a criminal act against this woman. 18:34 Absolutely! 18:35 But you know, Steve, the research that I've done, 18:39 gave me some more light on this issue. 18:42 Most of the data that the people who encourage abortion 18:47 are going by... they have asked women who were victims 18:51 of rape, but have not become pregnant because of the rape, 18:57 but just rape victims... the majority of rape 18:59 victims say, "If I were pregnant, I would want 19:03 to abort, but very little has been asked of 19:07 the actual rape victim who has become pregnant... 19:11 In fact, from what I've read, these women feel like 19:15 they have been silenced because 75 to 85 percent, 19:20 according to one study of women who have been raped, 19:24 and then conceive because of that rape, 19:27 choose to keep that child, and many of them keep them, 19:32 many of them adopted out. 19:34 But, one of the reasons for keeping that child 19:38 is... they were a victim of a crime, they don't want to 19:44 turn around and victimize someone else. Right 19:48 And it's very difficult... when I read the stories, 19:52 it just broke my heart because they think of that unborn child 19:57 and they think of the rapist, so there's a huge need for support. 20:04 You know, if there ever was a time, like I was telling 20:06 Antionette, that we really need to huddle around someone, 20:09 it's when they have chosen to keep that pregnancy 20:12 even though it's a... 20:13 That makes so much sense to me, but in a simple way, 20:16 am I right in saying, in a simple way, 20:19 two wrongs don't make a right. 20:21 Is that applicable to this situation? 20:23 Well, absolutely. You don't abort the baby, 20:25 because it's not the baby's fault. 20:27 That's right, and I want to add one more thing 20:29 I read about incest... a study that was done. 20:32 Both of these studies come from the same book, 20:34 and tomorrow when we go over resources, 20:36 I'll present this book. 20:40 But the incest victims, over 75% of them... 20:45 well first of all, out of the incest victims, 20:48 every one of them said they felt like they were not 20:51 given a choice in whether to abort. 20:56 Over 75% of those that were victims of incest 21:01 who had become pregnant said that abortion was not 21:05 the solution. 21:07 And I thought that was profound because this data is coming 21:12 from people who have experienced and have had 21:16 to go through it and we don't hear those stories. 21:18 We hear other peoples' opinions. 21:20 You know, I've mentioned before, society doesn't know 21:23 how to deal with trauma. 21:25 They want to take care of it quick... 21:26 What better way than to abort. 21:29 We're running out of time fast. 21:30 We need to go to other situations 21:34 where a woman's life is at stake. 21:36 The life and health of the mother, when they're spoken of, 21:39 many times, they're spoken of 21:40 as though they are the same thing. 21:43 As a ministry, we believe that we're made in the image of 21:49 the Lord, that we are valuable because we're made in His image, 21:51 and He created us from our very beginning with life... 21:55 Very beginning conception, to natural death. 21:58 When you're talking about an instance 22:01 of the life of the mother, for example, 22:04 in some like an ectopic pregnancy where her 22:07 physical life is threatened and will likely be lost 22:11 if that child remains inside of her. 22:14 An ectopic pregnancy is where the zygote, at that point, 22:19 becomes lodged in a fallopian tube, 22:21 and begins to grow and the fallopian tube bursts or 22:28 could possibly burst and the mother is going to hemorrhage. 22:30 She's going to bleed out and very likely die. 22:32 In a situation like that, our thought and belief 22:38 and I believe that the text that we read today would agree, 22:41 is that you seek to save as many lives as possible, 22:44 and so when the child is lodged in the fallopian tube 22:48 is not in its proper environment the unborn is meant to live 22:51 and grow in the uterus. 22:52 It's not meant to live and grow anywhere else in the body, 22:55 and so when you go in and remove a zygote, at that point, 23:00 that is in a fallopian tube, that child is not going to 23:04 survive and live. 23:06 To our knowledge, there's no way to remove a child 23:09 from a fallopian tube, put it in the uterus, 23:11 and allow it to continue to grow. 23:13 And so in a situation like that, you're going in 23:16 and you're seeking to save as many lives as possible, 23:18 which in this case would be the mother's life. 23:20 And so in that situation, it wouldn't be an act of 23:23 injustice that tends to shorten life. 23:25 So it wouldn't be a violation of the 6th commandment. Right 23:28 As compared to an act of convenience. Right 23:32 You know, just to make life easier. 23:34 To contrast that, the idea of the health of the mother. 23:38 We we've covered in a previous segment, when Roe v. Wade 23:44 was decided, a companion case Doe v. Bolton was 23:47 decided at the same time and abortion is legal 23:50 through all 9 months of pregnancy with a 23:52 health exception, except to save the health of the mother. 23:55 Well, Doe v. Bolton defined health as her physical health, 24:00 mental health, emotional health, socioeconomic health, 24:03 virtually any kind of reason for not going through 24:07 with the pregnancy that you could possibly imagine. 24:09 That was fit into that definition of health. 24:13 So when we're talking about an exception to 24:16 save the health of the mother, 24:18 we are not talking about her physical life. 24:21 That doesn't mean her physical life will be taken. 24:24 All of these other reasons have been crammed into that 24:27 word "health," and the health exception is not the 24:32 same thing as an exception for the life of the mother. 24:35 For us, the health exception simply is not the same, 24:39 and when you have already made that exception 24:41 for the life of the mom... because again, we're seeking 24:43 to preserve as many lives as possible, 24:45 why then is that health exception that has allowed 24:48 for abortion on demand necessary? 24:51 Right, I got it... Now, the issue of freedom. 24:53 Just to quickly bring that up. 24:55 We all believe that God has given us a law 24:59 and God is also a God who gives people freedom. 25:01 And it's obvious that we are all free to break 25:04 any one of the Commandments, but that doesn't mean 25:07 that it's right and to me, there's a clear distinction. 25:11 Women are free constitutionally and in the sight of God 25:14 to have an abortion if they choose. 25:16 But, the mission of the church, or at least part of the 25:18 mission of the church is to clarify the issues 25:20 that there is still right and wrong, 25:22 and a violation of the 6th commandment is a violation 25:25 of the 6th commandment and it's a wrong issue. 25:29 Yes, we're all free, but we should be urging people 25:32 not to do what's wrong, to do what's right 25:34 to value that life, value the person in the image of God 25:38 and to make the right choices. Absolutely 25:41 Well just as the church is the standard bearer on 25:44 so many issues; all of the Ten Commandments 25:50 in the same way, the church should be the 25:52 standard bearer pointing people to redemption and freedom 25:57 with the issue of abortion just like any other. 26:00 It doesn't take away from their freedom to speak what is truth. 26:03 And real freedom comes when we come to God, 26:05 put Him first, don't lose sight of Him, 26:07 follow His will, stay away from sin, 26:09 do what's right, and then we're free. 26:11 We're not guilty, we're happy, we're at peace, 26:13 and we have the joy of the Lord in our hearts 26:15 because we're doing what is right. 26:18 And it's not dictating the conscience to do that. 26:21 That's true, that's right, and we're, you know, 26:23 freedom... God wants us to use our freedom and follow Him, 26:29 and follow His will. 26:31 I have a verse to close with which is from Revelation 14:12. 26:35 This is talking about a final people. 26:37 The Bible says, "Here is the patience of the saints, 26:40 here are those who keep the Commandments of God, 26:43 and the faith of Jesus." 26:45 God is developing a people in these final days 26:48 who are truly commandment-keepers. 26:49 Now we've all broken God's law, we've all sinned, 26:52 we need His grace, we need His forgiveness, 26:54 and it's totally available to everyone of us. 26:56 And God's goal is to show us His grace, forgive our sins, 26:59 and change our lives so fully that we then take a stand 27:03 that we want to be commandment-keepers 27:05 ... not just #1, not just #5, not just 4, or 9, but 6 and 7 27:11 as we prepare for the coming of Jesus Christ. 27:16 Steve Wohlberg's latest pocket book "Hidden Holocaust" 27:20 is a must-read for anyone contemplating an abortion 27:24 or who has had one. 27:25 While Steve shares the biblical position on this controversial 27:29 subject, he also presents a message of hope and healing. 27:33 To get your free copy of the pocket book, 27:35 "Hidden Holocaust," just call the toll free number 27:37 number on the screen and order your copy today or write to: |
Revised 2024-08-27