Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Dianne Wagner
Series Code: TAC
Program Code: TAC000011A
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00:08 Abortion is perfectly legal, and yet countless
00:12 men and women have suffered terribly when the reality 00:15 finally hit them that they have chosen to take the life 00:19 of their own innocent child. 00:22 Is true healing really possible? 00:25 The answer is YES! 00:27 Next on "The Abortion Controversy" 00:59 Thank you for tuning in to part 11 of a 13-part series 01:03 called: "The Abortion Controversy" 01:05 We are dealing with huge issues. 01:07 Today, again, my guest is Dianne Wagner. 01:10 She had two abortions, she has suffered more 01:13 than I'll ever know or you'll ever know 01:15 or anybody except God really will ever know, 01:17 and yet she has truly found healing. 01:20 And today, she's going to go into some of the details 01:22 that she has not shared before 01:24 as to how she found that healing. 01:26 Dianne, wow, before we came together this time 01:31 I know you were outside taking a walk, you were praying, 01:34 spending time with God, getting ready for this segment, 01:39 and I'm sure it's very emotional, 01:41 but let me just hold your hand here. 01:43 Thank you for your courage to be willing to talk about this. 01:49 And a lot of people need this, and as you have told me, 01:52 women have come to you in the past telling you 01:55 how grateful they are that you have actually opened 01:58 up and that you are talking about this. 02:00 That's what motivates me to keep telling my story 02:04 because of people's response 02:06 to it and that's what has brought me here. 02:09 Thank you for your invitation... Your welcome 02:12 You know, I have experienced the Lord's redemptive 02:15 power in my life like I never knew existed, 02:18 and it has made a huge impact on me. 02:23 I know what God means now when He says that... 02:25 "All things can work together for the good." 02:27 You know the things that we may be victim to 02:31 and had no choice or say, and the things that we suffer 02:35 because of the choice we made or a decision we made, 02:38 that He can make all things work together for the good." 02:41 What a promise! I love that! 02:45 I think Peter... just quickly, he denied Jesus 3 times. 02:49 The Bible says he wept bitterly, and yet the Lord 02:52 still loved him and He used that situation to turn 02:55 Peter's life so far around that on the Day of Pentecost, 02:59 God was able to use him to change and convert 3,000 people. 03:03 So God can take evil and He can turn it around, 03:07 and He can bring good out of it. That's right! 03:09 He is a wonderful God! 03:10 The Lord reigns! That's right! 03:12 Well, how I looked at it was... that God created us, 03:19 and He had this plan of salvation in place 03:22 before we even needed it. 03:23 He sees those sins we try to hide; 03:27 He watched as His Son's beard was being plucked out; 03:30 His face spit at... You know, that same God 03:33 loves even me, after seeing all this, 03:38 and I know that that same God has the power to not only 03:46 forgive, but to restore a post-abortive woman or man, 03:51 someone who has taken the life of the most innocent of us all, 03:55 you know, her own baby... That's a hard one. 04:00 And I don't think it's humanly possible for us to even 04:02 grasp that kind of love, it's supernatural. 04:05 It's beyond what humans, in themselves, 04:09 can give or understand. It's huge 04:13 You've told us some of the details in the past, 04:16 but you're going to go into some new territory today. 04:19 Yeah, I gave my heart to the Lord when I was 15, 04:21 and I know the Lord was with me, 04:24 and the Lord was jealous for me; 04:25 He wanted to be the One to take care of me. 04:27 But as I got older, I made decisions, 04:30 I didn't seek the Lord for wisdom; 04:32 I sought the world's wisdom. 04:34 And I made choices that alienated me because of sin. 04:41 And I love the thought that... you've read the text, 04:44 "the gateway of hope," and He waited at that gateway 04:47 of hope for me even when I was alienated because of sin. 04:52 He never gave up on me, 04:54 and that makes me fall more in love with Him. 04:58 So, I told you how we met Antionette, 05:02 my husband and I, at the 2011 GYC in Houston, 05:07 and she had this ministry for the post-abortive... 05:12 She had a booth there... Right, right and I saw that... 05:14 And I had always avoided pro life movements 05:17 because of past experiences that were very hurtful. 05:21 And, like you said, I had had two abortions in my life 05:25 at that time - it had been 30 years... 05:28 And when I saw that booth, for the very first time, 05:31 I allowed myself to go up there and look at pictures 05:35 of babies, the ages that mine were when I had them aborted, 05:40 and I had never allowed myself to do that, 05:42 even though I had already experienced 05:43 the Lord's forgiveness and I knew, by faith, 05:46 that the Lord had forgiven me, there was all this baggage, 05:50 the consequences that I had never dealt with. 05:53 And no one knew how to help me deal with that 05:55 up until this point. Even in the church? 05:57 No, you know you very rarely hear of the subject 06:02 of abortion brought up... And we've talked about that. 06:04 I have a growing conviction that the Church of Jesus Christ 06:08 needs to deal with this issue because it's such a big issue. 06:12 It's such a real issue; it's a Ten Commandment issue; 06:13 it's a sin issue; it's a grace issue; 06:16 it's a hurting issue; it's a people issue. 06:18 And Jesus wants to reach out to people right where they're at. 06:23 Exactly! And there's a lot of women 06:24 who are right where you were, and they need Jesus 06:28 through the church to deal with this issue... 06:30 That's right. ...and not to just avoid it. 06:31 Let the church be a refuge and a resource. Right 06:35 As well as the standard bearer that we were talking about. 06:38 Well after meeting Antionette, as I've told you before, 06:43 I left that hall and I cried when I left the exhibit hall 06:46 that night... I mean, my heart was breaking! 06:50 And I knew that there were unresolved issues; 06:53 things that I had not confronted yet when it came to 06:56 the subject of my abortions. 06:59 And, I started doing research about it because Antionette 07:04 had talked about the redemptive healing that the Lord has, 07:07 you know and the value and the intrinsic value and so much 07:11 enthusiasm... as you know. She's pretty bubbly! 07:14 She is and it made me jealous for that. 07:17 I wanted that, I knew something was missing in my life, 07:21 so I started doing research on the post-abortive woman. 07:25 And I came across a ministry called, "Rachel's Vineyard." 07:32 Now "Rachel's Vineyard" was started by Dr. Theresa Burke,. 07:37 and actually, I think when she was working on her doctorate, 07:41 she was doing some group therapy and the women in 07:44 her group... actually, it was an eating disorder, 07:47 it wasn't a post-abortive, but so many of these women 07:50 came up with having post-abortives, 07:54 and some of them were very volatile and mean and angry, 07:57 and some of them were broken-hearted, mournful, 08:00 and just all these different scenarios. 08:02 But they all had the same symptoms, 08:06 where it was surfacing, how it was surfacing 08:09 in the eating disorder, and the self-hatred 08:11 and the treatment of themselves. 08:13 So she started the weekend retreats, 08:17 Christian weekend retreats. 08:18 Well she, herself, is Catholic, so they offer a Catholic weekend 08:23 and they offer a nondenominational 08:26 Christian Bible-based weekend. 08:28 And did you find out about her ministry on the internet? 08:31 On the internet, I was doing research... 08:33 Was Googling... I was! 08:35 Post abortive healing. Exactly! Exactly! 08:37 And so I called the lady that had the weekend retreat 08:43 in North Carolina and I told her... I said, 08:45 "You know, I'm not Catholic, and she said, 08:47 "Well, I'm not either, you'll need to go to the 08:49 nondenominational one." 08:51 She was wonderful and just such a difference from 08:55 the last time I had reached out because, if you remember, 08:59 the last time I had actually called somebody 09:02 was that 800 hot-line number, 09:05 and I was just broken then. 09:08 I hadn't even had confessed my sin of abortion yet. 09:12 And the woman was... "Well you know 09:13 abortion is murder." 09:15 So "bang, don't you." Right 09:18 So I just hung up the phone, 09:19 and I didn't want anything to do with it. 09:23 And so, this woman was very kind; in fact, 09:27 in the weeks before the retreat, I got a card from her, 09:32 and I got a little letter encouraging, 09:34 "This is going to make such an impact on your life." 09:36 Good for her... It was just amazing! 09:40 But the week before that retreat, 09:44 I absolutely panicked. 09:47 I had the same anxiety and fear and literally shaking. 09:53 In fact, one day I went to my husband's office, 09:55 and I climbed up in his lap, and I was just that pitiful 10:00 because I was so afraid of confronting something that 10:04 I had stuffed so deeply. 10:08 And he was awesome, he was totally 10:10 supportive of me doing that. 10:12 And I went, and I know now it was the devil. 10:15 The devil did not want me to experience full redemption. 10:19 Now, was this a weekend or a week or? 10:21 It was a weekend - a long weekend. 10:23 And how many other women, I'm assuming... 10:25 Were there women and men or just women? 10:26 Well, there was about 4 other women and a man. 10:34 I want to look at my notes because I don't want to 10:36 miss anything, but I had friends praying for me, 10:43 Antionette, of course, was praying for me, 10:45 and then I had 3 other friends, that the entire weekend, 10:49 they were praying for me. 10:51 And then when I got there, I realized that this 10:54 "Rachel's Vineyard Retreat," they have people praying 10:57 around the clock the entire weekend just for us 11:01 coming for this as they see the importance of us 11:03 addressing these issues. 11:05 Was it in a house? 11:07 Well, it was a really big farm house that 11:10 was made to accommodate weekend retreats and stuff like that. 11:14 Nice rural setting, peaceful. It was beautiful! 11:16 It was beautiful. 11:18 So, it was a wonderful retreat and I can honestly say, 11:22 "I've never been so ministered to in my life 11:26 as I had been that weekend. 11:27 They were very attentive, and it was a safe environment. 11:31 where we felt we could share our stories and confidence. 11:37 In fact, we agreed there, initially, that the stories 11:42 we heard from these other people, 11:44 it was all going to be held in sacred confidence 11:47 because people were bearing their souls and their stories, 11:50 and heartbreaking stories. 11:52 And because of that, we became very close and we wept together, 11:58 and we prayed together, and we confessed together, 12:03 and we shared each other's pain. 12:06 And by sharing each other's pain, we validated 12:11 what we had been going through. 12:13 And we were given the opportunity to dedicate 12:18 our babies. 12:20 Now, you know the babies that I have that are now all grown, 12:23 I dedicated them when they were babies. 12:27 We went to the church, in the front, and pastor... 12:29 We did the same thing... Right 12:31 But I never thought of dedicating my unborn babies, 12:36 but I had never allowed myself to even acknowledge them... 12:39 You know, much less go to that. 12:41 It's like a closet that was shut tight, 12:44 and that weekend opened the door. 12:47 It did and it's okay, it's safe here. 12:50 You're going to go where you need to go. 12:52 So it was then that I really felt the healing 12:57 when we had the dedication ceremony. 13:00 It was incredible. 13:02 And was it for both of your babies? 13:05 Yes, it was for both of the babies that I had aborted, 13:08 and in my little book, I share that I had 13:11 had 2 miscarriages, so actually, there were 4 babies 13:15 that I had lost because the miscarriages were on the hills 13:19 of abortions, and were they for sure because 13:24 of the abortion...? I don't know, 13:26 but they very likely could be. 13:30 And so they encourage us to include those babies, 13:33 which I thought was very important. 13:36 We need to grieve for that loss as well. 13:39 So, we had the dedication, 13:44 and it was then that I felt the healing. 13:49 And I had never thought of dedicating my babies, 13:52 and it was powerful. 13:53 But the key here is by doing that, 13:56 I was acknowledging that this baby was, indeed, a part of me, 14:00 and I was choosing to trust the Lord with my baby now. 14:05 And ha! It makes an impact on you, actually it does! 14:09 ...And that's when the grief comes. 14:12 You know, as a group, we had shed tears of regret, 14:15 and now came those cleansing tears of remorse 14:21 where we can grieve the loss of our babies... 14:26 without that condemnation. 14:29 It was a beautiful thing! 14:31 And if you start crying, I'm going to be a mess. 14:34 I'm sorry... 14:35 So with that, we had this grief without condemnation. 14:40 We were encouraged to write letters to these babies. 14:43 Now, I want you to know, I could have never written 14:45 a letter to this unborn baby if I hadn't already 14:49 gone through the previous steps. 14:50 It was critical and it was beautiful. 14:53 So, the denial was gone and I was talking to my baby. 15:00 And, I named that first baby "Uriah." 15:04 Uriah, after the brave and honorable "Uriah the Hittite," 15:09 in the Bible, and if you want, I'll read the letter to you... 15:15 Yes... by God's grace. 15:19 Do you have a letter for each child? 15:21 I have a letter for each child, 15:23 and they're beautiful letters, 15:25 and I treasure. You don't have time to read them all. Right 15:26 Just one... So, I'll share this. 15:28 Uriah would have been my firstborn. 15:31 "My Dear Uriah, You would have been our 15:36 firstborn, Uriah, an honored and blessed position. 15:40 You bear with me... 15:44 But your dad and I prevented that from happening. 15:47 We didn't trust God's Son. 15:49 We leaned on our own understanding of things. 15:53 We trusted man's wisdom over the wisdom from above. 15:57 The doctor's told us we should abort... every one of them. 16:01 I'd like to think that was the only reason I did it, 16:04 and thus blame them, I can't. 16:07 I was afraid, son... Even though I was engaged 16:11 to your dad, I felt shame and fear. 16:14 I think that if I had had a spiritual mentor at the time, 16:17 I might have reconsidered, maybe... 16:21 I didn't have a church family to be embarrassed around. 16:24 I was afraid of what the radiation 16:26 might have done to you, but I can't blame it 16:28 on just that. 16:31 I named you "Uriah" because he was a righteous man, 16:34 and his life was taken away. 16:37 He was in the way. 16:39 Through him, David's shame would have been revealed, 16:43 so he had him killed. 16:45 If I had not had the abortion, I would have been shamed. 16:50 Shamed! So son, I had you aborted. 16:53 I had your precious little body destroyed, 16:59 and removed from the safety of my womb. 17:03 Now I know what real shame is. 17:07 You would have been 31 years old by now, son. 17:12 You would have been big, beautiful and strong. 17:18 But I took it away. I am sorry son. 17:22 I am so sorry. 17:25 I look forward to the day when we are reunited. 17:28 I want to hold you close to my heart and thank Jesus 17:32 for forgiving me and giving you back to me. 17:35 I love you Uriah, Mommy 17:39 Well, as you can imagine, there was a 17:43 lot of tears shed that day. 17:45 I had 4 letters to read. 17:48 Another lady had 4 letters. 17:49 The gentleman there had 2 letters. 17:52 And, each one of us, had a way of memorializing. 17:59 Some had maybe a poem they had written, 18:03 just different ways that they wanted to always remember 18:06 this child that they had not had. 18:09 And so I came up with this and I'd like to show it to you. 18:15 Was this part of Rachel's direction? It was... 18:19 This is what they directed you to do... 18:20 Well they encouraged us that if there was something we 18:23 wanted to do, and at the time, 18:25 to be honest, I didn't know what to expect when I went. 18:31 In fact, I called her the week before and said, 18:35 "I just need to know there's nothing weird 18:37 going to be going on." 18:38 You know, I was like venturing out on territory, 18:42 but I wanted the Lord's redemptive power in my life 18:46 so bad and I wanted healing, and I didn't understand 18:49 the significance of acknowledging these babies, 18:53 and giving myself permission to grieve... 18:56 "You know, it's okay to grieve, Dianne, 18:58 the Lord has forgiven you, now forgive yourself." 19:02 And that is the hardest part... to forgive yourself. 19:07 So I thought about what kind of memorial, 19:13 and I remember going to the store and thinking, 19:17 "Okay, maybe a little baby doll," 19:19 and then... OH, there was no baby doll." 19:22 I went to the office to David and I cried... 19:25 "I don't know what to do, I don't know what to do, 19:27 I can't find anything." 19:28 He said, "Well, let's just look at something on the internet." 19:31 So he's the one who really helped me 19:33 steer in this direction. 19:35 And we found these adorable little babies, 19:37 and I'd like to show this to you. 19:39 I have one for each one. 19:41 Here is Uriah's... it's a little box 19:44 with the baby feet and when you open it, 19:47 there's just a little baby. 19:50 And this is not like something I'd keep out for everyone to see 19:55 I keep it tucked away in my pajama drawer. 19:59 But it is my little memorial for Uriah, 20:05 and it has helped in the healing. 20:08 We don't allow ourselves to heal, 20:12 and that's very sad and that's why I encourage 20:15 everyone to plug into some kind of post-abortive. 20:22 It has made a new woman out of me. 20:25 And it will be 2 years in March that I went. 20:29 And all the ladies at that retreat know I'm here 20:32 and they're all praying for me. 20:33 So you're keeping in touch with them... Absolutely! 20:35 In fact, we're given the opportunity to exchange 20:38 contact information, but only if we wanted to 20:43 because of the confidential... Of course 20:45 And, I actually heard from one of the ladies 20:48 not too many weeks ago and her husband was going to go 20:52 to the retreat and I was thrilled about that. 20:57 In fact, David... we were just talking about this 21:01 maybe the last few months that he wants to go to one. 21:06 Really? He said, "But only if you 21:07 go with me. Wow... 21:09 It really helped you. 21:11 It's huge. I want to read this text 21:15 that just really means so much to me. 21:17 It's not a text, it's a quote. 21:20 Usually when I give a presentation, 21:21 I read the whole thing, but I won't read the 21:23 whole thing here, but the reason I'm reading this 21:26 is because the men and women who are out there 21:29 hearing this - watching this need to hear this. 21:33 "Satan stands at our right hand to accuse us, 21:38 and our Advocate stands at God's right hand to plead for us. 21:43 We have reason to have hope. 21:46 He has never lost a case that has been committed to Him." 21:50 When I read that, that was like opening a window. 21:54 "He has never lost a case that has been committed to Him." 21:57 Praise God! I committed my case to Him 21:59 and I know it was through Jesus that I found Rachel's Vineyard 22:04 because even though the Lord had forgiven me of my sin 22:09 years ago... the sin of abortion 22:11 that I had taken the life of my innocent child, 22:14 He had forgiven me the consequences. 22:18 The sad thing about it is... the consequences I suffered 22:23 for 30 years which is pitiful, 22:26 and that's why I'm here today because "yes, I have 22:29 experienced the redemptive power of Jesus Christ 22:31 in my life and I don't want other men and women to suffer. 22:36 Yeah, you know I've thought so much about this and I have 22:38 thought about the whole freedom issue, 22:39 and I thought of... what if a man was on the edge of a 22:41 cliff talking to somebody else and the man was about to jump... 22:46 What would I say to that person? 22:47 Would I say, "You know, I totally respect your freedom 22:50 to jump if you choose to." No 22:53 Now he has freedom. Right 22:55 But I would give him every reason NOT to jump 23:00 to save him and really, that's what 23:02 I see as part of the mission of the church. 23:05 ... Is that the church needs to, yes, we respect freedom, 23:07 but we need to help people to understand 23:09 this is a sin issue. 23:11 It's a right and wrong issue, and we want to help people 23:15 so they don't have to go through 30 years like you 23:19 have suffered, but Praise God you found healing. Amen! 23:22 And the silence, that's why we need to break the silence, 23:27 and do something. 23:29 I got it... You mentioned the men too. 23:31 As I've been thinking about this, 23:33 there was something that really hit me the other day 23:35 that if I knew that a woman that I was with 23:39 became pregnant and through our consultation or whatever 23:45 she chose to have an abortion, and I finally realized 23:48 what I had done later on, this is something that would 23:50 really minister to me. 23:52 I've been just thinking about this about Jesus. 23:54 It says in John 1:10 that "He was in the world 23:57 and the world was made through Him." 23:58 That Jesus is the Maker of everything, you know, 24:02 and there's another verse in Acts 3:15 that says that, 24:05 "He is the Prince of life." 24:06 And I've just thought about that. 24:08 I thought if it was my baby that was aborted, 24:12 for me to realize that not only is Jesus the Prince of Life 24:16 who made that child that was supposed to grow full-term, 24:21 and I contributed to the death of my own son or daughter, 24:27 the same Jesus who made that child, made me, 24:32 and that He came down into Mary's womb 24:35 and He came full-term, and then He grew up 24:38 and He lived for me and suffered 24:40 and He died at the end of His life and He rose. 24:43 And I guess my point is that He made my baby, 24:49 but He also made me and He loves the baby, 24:52 and He loves me so much that He became a baby 24:55 and He grew up and He did all that to let me know 24:59 that He loves me too. 25:02 That thought just hit me one day and I thought, 25:03 "You know, that would really help the healing process for me" 25:07 and I know God uses different insights and ways, 25:11 and I'm so thankful that He has used that retreat to help you. 25:14 It was huge, it was huge. 25:17 I don't know how much more time we have, 25:20 so I don't want to start. Got about 2 minutes... 25:22 But the intrinsic value, besides this retreat, 25:25 what you were just saying, what Jesus has done for us... 25:28 when we see that, we can see how valuable we are. 25:33 I think we'd say, "What would Jesus do?" 25:34 I've asked myself, "Would Jesus abort a baby?" 25:37 And my answer would be, "Not if there was any 25:42 other way." The answer would be "No." 25:46 We talked about women in certain situations 25:48 where the mother's life is at stake, 25:49 but His answer would be "No." 25:51 If there's any other way because He's the author of that life. 25:55 That's right... And He's the author of your life. 25:57 And, Dianne, your testimony is helping a lot of people. 26:02 Well thank you for letting me share it. Thank you 26:04 You're very welcome, and I'm assuming people 26:06 can contact you in the future. Absolutely 26:09 If they are struggling, they can find Rachel's Vineyard, 26:11 and they can find "Mafgia Ministry," 26:14 and they can get the information that they need 26:16 to help with the healing process. 26:18 Well as we wind this up, I'm glad I'm not bawling, 26:23 I could be - I cry quite a bit when I think of my kids. 26:27 I was a little worried myself about me. 26:29 I want to finish this up with a verse in the 26:31 book of Revelation. 26:33 I've shared this many times as a pastor and as a speaker, 26:38 and as a writer, Revelation 21:4-5 says that 26:43 "One of these days God will wipe away all tears from their eyes, 26:48 and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, 26:51 nor crying; neither shall there be anymore pain 26:54 for the former things will all pass away, 26:56 and He that sat upon the throne 26:58 said, "Behold I make all things new," and He said to me, 27:04 "Write, for these words are true and they are faithful." 27:11 The Bible is the truth. God is the truth! 27:13 Life is from Him and whatever you've done... 27:17 if you're a man who has contributed to an abortion; 27:20 if you're a woman who has had an abortion, 27:21 you've heard Dianne's story, you've heard the Word of God... 27:24 Jesus says, "Those who come to Me, I will never cast out." 27:27 And some day, all tears will be gone and we invite you 27:30 to get to know that God right now. 27:34 Dianne Wagner shares her life-changing story 27:38 in today's free offer: "Redeemed, A Gateway of Hope" 27:42 If you have been blessed by these programs, 27:44 and would like a powerful sharing book to give to women 27:46 who need to hear this message of hope, call: 27:48 1-800-782-4253 27:55 or you can write to the following: 28:01 or order online at www.whitehorsemedia.com 28:06 If you have been blessed by today's program, 28:09 and would like to help White Horse Media 28:10 with your financial support, you can call our toll-free 28:13 number listed on the screen or donate online 28:16 at whitehorsemedia.com 28:18 We solicit your prayers for our ministry, 28:20 and we thank you for any gift large or small 28:24 to help us reach people with the gospel. |
Revised 2024-08-27