Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Antionette Duck, Dianne Wagner
Series Code: TAC
Program Code: TAC000013A
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00:08 Are there any resources available to those who are
00:10 struggling with abortion? 00:12 Amazingly there are a lot more than you realize. 00:15 Next on "The Abortion Controversy" 00:48 Welcome to the grand finale of a series called, 00:50 "The Abortion Controversy" This is part 13 00:53 If you have missed the first 12, 00:55 I really recommend you get the DVD. 00:57 These programs have been so powerful... 00:59 I've been interviewing Dianne Wagner, 01:01 and Antionette Duck of "Mafgia Ministry" 01:03 They have dedicated their lives to helping 01:05 women and men to deal with this whole topic of abortion, 01:09 fetuses, babies, life, death, trauma, guilt, pain, 01:12 and the need for hope and health and forgiveness 01:16 through Jesus Christ. 01:17 And, again, this is the big finale, 01:19 we're going to talk about resources that are 01:21 available to you and to those that you love, 01:24 and we are totally convinced that this abortion controversy 01:27 is very much a part of the great controversy 01:30 between Jesus Christ and the devil, 01:33 so keep with us and we'll provide these 01:36 resources for you next. 01:38 Ladies, here we go... this has been great. 01:41 This has really been good, and we've done a lot of praying, 01:44 haven't we? Yes, we have. 01:46 This has not just been something that we've done just on an 01:49 academic level, but we feel we're in spiritual warfare. 01:54 And, a lot of people, not just us, but others have been praying 01:56 that God would just bless this series and really use it 02:00 in a mighty way to His glory and to help people. 02:04 So this is the last program, and that's what you're all 02:06 about is about helping people and you've got a lot of 02:09 resources that you want to 02:11 share, so I'll turn it over to you. 02:14 Well, you know, the resources what I believe in is 02:19 education, prevention. 02:20 If you know something is going to bring harm or trauma, 02:24 death, grief, you want to do what you can to prevent that, 02:29 and I'm a firm believer in starting young. 02:33 Start with our children, instill into them the value 02:37 of life while they're little. 02:39 So the first book I have here that I want to recommend 02:42 is primarily a picture book. 02:44 But, it's in a book called, "A Child is Born," 02:48 and I'm going to open it up so we can see 02:50 one of the pictures. 02:52 And I believe if you instill in a child the very special 02:58 value of that baby while it's still growing in mommy. 03:02 Wow, what a picture. It's going to make an impact. 03:05 Don't you think? Absolutely 03:07 I need to show that book to my kids. 03:08 You need to get this book, and I got this one on EBay. 03:13 What's been so remarkable is in exhibiting from 03:18 Mafgia's beginning when we've gone to different 03:20 church conventions or outreaches, 03:23 setting up exhibits, we use these fetal models. 03:28 They're called "Touch of Life Fetal Models," 03:30 and they show how large the unborn is at 16 weeks, 03:36 12, 22 and 26. 03:38 It is absolutely astounding the number of people walking 03:42 by and these are believers who believe in creation... 03:45 They walk by and they have no idea how incredibly 03:50 well-developed the baby is at 12 weeks, at just 3 months. 03:55 Is this real... are you trying to prove something? 03:58 No, that really is how developed you are, 04:00 it's absolutely incredible. 04:02 So this is a... for those of us that believe in creation, 04:05 six days, God rested on the seventh... 04:08 this is part of creation. 04:10 It's an incredible part of creation and one that we 04:14 really need to take a look at and learn from. 04:15 Yes, absolutely! Absolutely, and to add to that, 04:18 it is so sweet to see the little girls who will come up 04:21 to the table and see this and right off, 04:24 hold that little baby, even if it's an 04:27 unborn 12-week-old. Boy, that would be my daughter. 04:30 My 7-year-old, Abby, she has probably 30 little baby dolls, 04:35 and she has them in her stroller, 04:37 and she has it where they talk to each other, 04:40 and she carries them around and she'd be right there. 04:43 Very sweet! 04:44 Well, I want to go through some other books. 04:46 If someone is truly interested in the trauma of abortion, 04:51 this is an excellent book that I would recommend, 04:53 it's "Forbidden Grief," by Theresa Burke. 04:56 Now remember, Theresa Burke is the founder 04:59 for "Rachel's Vineyard"... Which was where you went... 05:03 and it really helped you to find part of the deepest healing 05:07 of your trauma. That's true - huge! 05:10 So this is a book I would highly recommend. 05:13 It's very, very informative as far as what goes on. 05:18 Yes, yes, absolutely! 05:20 Another book that I would recommend would be, 05:24 "Why Pro-Life," by Randy Alcorn, caring for the unborn 05:28 and their mothers. 05:30 I read that book cover-to-cover. 05:31 I saw that you had this... It really opened my eyes. 05:35 I'm glad you said that because that's what we need. 05:38 We need our eyes opened. 05:40 There is a lot of good people out there, but they're ignorant. 05:43 They really don't realize the crisis that we're dealing with. 05:47 Yeah, 45-million babies a year 05:49 around the world... this is a crisis! That's right 05:52 Over a million in America. 05:53 Another book, right quick is, 05:55 "Abortion and the Early Church," Michael Gorman. 06:01 This was just a very informative book. 06:03 It really opened my eyes as far as a church. 06:08 We have made compromises in the past, 06:11 but there has been a repentance of that compromise. 06:14 So we're never at a place where we can't repent 06:18 if we have been neutral or maybe too silent about an issue. 06:23 Gotten off track in a certain area. 06:25 We can see that down throughout history. 06:26 God's people have woven in and out. 06:29 The Lord is always leading them 06:31 back to the straight and narrow path. That's right! 06:34 So, I don't know if there was anything you wanted to add. 06:38 Really, you know, we think that getting what's been really 06:43 phenomenal in our experience, and even my meeting Dianne, 06:49 speaking with her, is that getting the conversation going. 06:53 She talks about prevention through education 06:55 because it's something that people are so silent on... 06:59 because there's so much shame; there's so much condemnation; 07:01 and there's so much baggage that comes with this issue, 07:04 just getting the conversation going can really start the 07:08 healing process... Absolutely and so getting something... 07:12 Some of these books, I'm sure Dianne will talk about 07:14 Sydna Masse's book later, but books like this 07:18 that talk about other people's abortion experiences, 07:21 it's almost cathartic. 07:23 You know whatever, if you've experienced child abuse, 07:26 if you had experienced a difficult childhood or 07:27 a difficult marriage, reading about their experiences... 07:33 It's almost like a catharsis to say, "I'm not alone." 07:36 I'm not the only one... 07:37 I'm not the only one who has been experiencing these things. 07:39 Is it the same issue kind of like pornography? 07:42 I mean, we're not dealing with pornography here, 07:45 but there's a huge percentage of men that are involved in 07:49 pornography and they need resources, 07:52 and it's like the hidden shame 07:53 that they just don't want to talk about. 07:55 So when they find out that there is a healing website 07:58 that has resources and they can come, they can talk, 08:01 they can say I've got a problem, I need help. 08:03 It's a similar thing, isn't it, that we're dealing with 08:06 deep, dark shame and the need for light, 08:10 God's light to shine into that darkness. 08:13 Well, and how often does the enemy want you to think 08:16 you're walking alone, when in reality, you're not. 08:18 He wants you to think you're walking alone, 08:20 and there's no way out for you. 08:21 And so it's all condemnation, it's all despair, 08:23 it's all hopelessness... when in reality, 08:25 so many people have walked before you, 08:27 and praise the Lord, some have found healing and freedom 08:31 at the cross. 08:33 And so, know that those resources are there, 08:36 seek them out because you're not alone, 08:38 and your situation is not hopeless. 08:40 There is a Savior who waits to set you free. 08:42 Do you have these resources on your website? 08:44 Is there a link or if they're not, I'm assuming will they be, 08:49 because people, as they're listening to this, 08:50 watching this, they're going to want to go to... 08:52 "Mafgia.com" Yes 09:01 They can go there, they can find the resources, 09:03 they can contact you? Yes 09:05 They can schedule you to come to their church 09:08 if you've got the time... Yes, yes, absolutely! 09:11 You do speak together, you go out and speak 09:13 in conventions before physicians you're available. Yes 09:17 You are a resource. Yes! 09:18 And please, I will promote Dianne here... 09:22 If women have experienced this, I mean in speaking, again 09:27 being interviewed in other situations, 09:30 women send us their stories; men are the same way. 09:34 Dianne is the most incredible resource 09:36 because she has walked there, she has been there. 09:38 And, being able to talk to someone who has been there, 09:42 it's invaluable and so please don't hesitate to reach out. 09:47 We would really love to be in contact with anyone, 09:51 but especially Dianne if a woman has walked 09:54 through a post-abortive experience, to reach out to her 09:57 because she may not plug herself, but I will. 09:59 Are there any more resources that you haven't mentioned? 10:01 Well, as-a-matter-of-fact, yes... 10:04 You know, when I first started looking for resources, 10:07 when I first started getting that thirst for more 10:10 and I was really doing my own search, 10:13 I went to three different Christian book stores, 10:16 and found nothing, so I want to encourage people, 10:19 if they start looking and they can't find it, 10:22 it's there, you just have to look a little harder. 10:25 I've actually found a lot of my stuff online. 10:27 "Amazon.com" I imagine... Yes Probably plenty there. 10:31 Yes, quite a bit. 10:33 So, the thing I want to really encourage now 10:36 or address is men because it's becoming 10:40 more and more apparent, and especially since men are 10:43 finding their voices and now they're encouraging other men's 10:47 groups and other Bible study groups for men. 10:50 because they realize the redemption they have gotten, 10:53 you know, the healing they have gotten. 10:54 So I have three books here; 10:56 this one is "Men and Abortion: A path to healing." 11:01 C. T. Coyle is the author, a very good book. 11:05 This next one is "A Bible Study" and this is what I would love 11:12 to see our church do eventually, 11:14 is provide Bible studies for men and women, 11:18 to have a men's group. 11:19 And not just make it open to the community, 11:22 and the church would be the place for it. 11:25 Right - a resource. Exactly! 11:27 Advertise, people can come. Right... 11:30 Stress seminars, health seminars. That's right! 11:33 Stop smoking, have healing from abortion seminars. 11:36 And, from experience, people, a lot of times will 11:40 avoid a church building, but a building next to it, 11:43 I mean a lot of times the gym or the Family Life Center, 11:47 you know - that there'll be another place. 11:49 But this is "Healing a Father's Heart," Linda Cochrane. 11:52 They have one like this for a mother - the "...Woman's Heart," 11:57 and very good. 11:58 Now this one, I am particularly interested in, 12:02 and I would encourage this actually to be the first book 12:05 if a man were actually looking for a book. 12:08 "Redeeming a Father's Heart," Kevin Burke. 12:12 Read that subtitle - it says, "Men share powerful stories 12:16 of abortion loss and recovery." Absolutely! 12:19 And it's filled with stories and like Antionette was saying, 12:23 ...when you hear other people's stories, 12:25 when men hear other men's stories, 12:28 it really makes an impact because like I was telling 12:31 you earlier, men bury this very deep, this trauma. 12:35 One of the chapters in here that I thought was especially 12:38 important was chapter 3, 12:40 "I married a post-abortive woman." 12:43 You know, men that get into a relationship with a woman 12:48 who has had an abortion, it wasn't his baby, 12:51 they need to understand the trauma 12:54 that woman is going through. That makes perfect sense. 12:56 It absolutely does and so even if you bought the book 13:00 for no other reason than that chapter, I would encourage men. 13:04 So that men can really understand what there was. 13:06 Think it through and then they can 13:08 say the right things and minister to them. 13:10 And understand... in fact, I got a letter from a gentleman 13:14 who had read some of my stuff and he thanked me so much. 13:19 He goes, "I understand my wife so much better now." 13:23 And that was just from reading my story... 13:26 So I would encourage men, wouldn't you? 13:29 Oh absolutely, and you know, the enemy is looking to destroy 13:35 people and marriages in any way he can, 13:38 and you consider the number of women who have been 13:40 affected by this, the number of men who have been 13:41 affected by this as we have already said, 13:43 and for a woman not to be able to share this kind of pain 13:47 with her husband, it would be devastating because she's 13:51 living in shame all over again because she can't even tell 13:55 the one who is supposed to love her most dearly about 13:58 something that has been so traumatic. 14:02 So men really need to understand so they can come alongside 14:05 their wives and be a part of the healing process. Right 14:08 And not push it aside or say, 14:10 "I love you anyway, it doesn't matter," 14:12 It matters to her, it matters to the Lord, 14:15 it matters to their marriage, so deal with it, 14:18 and be a strong, united front going forward. 14:21 And of course it's not just for the women who have 14:23 been through this or the men who are married to 14:25 the women who have been through this, 14:27 and the men who have been through this, 14:28 but most of us know somebody that has been involved 14:31 in these things even if we really or may we 14:34 don't think we know them or we think we don't know them, 14:37 but we'd be surprised. 14:39 I think you mentioned that there was some situation 14:41 where you went somewhere and you were told, 14:43 "Well the women here - this is not our problem." 14:45 And you walked away just shocked... 14:47 yeah but if she only knew the facts! 14:50 Exactly, it was a school... we were approaching different 14:54 schools letting them know what we had to offer, 14:57 and one particular school that I went to said, 15:01 "Well we don't have that problem here." 15:03 And it really made me sad for this woman because 15:08 I'm thinking, "What is going on that you aren't even aware of." 15:12 And even if we're not personally involved in our own home, 15:16 once it's known that we have resources about this, 15:21 people will probably come out of the woodwork 15:23 and we can help others. 15:24 I mean, there is family members and friends and somehow God 15:28 has to open up that door into their heart, 15:30 so they're willing to talk about it, 15:31 and then we want to be resources of healing. 15:35 And on that note, which is very important, 15:38 whenever I encourage people about this particular book, 15:43 it was the first book I read when I started my search. 15:48 It's Sydna Masse, she has the "Ramah International Ministries" 15:52 for post-abortive healing. 15:54 And, the name of her book is "Her Choice to Heal" 15:57 She was post-abortive, she shares her story 16:00 and her journey. 16:02 Actually, Sydna Masse worked with James Dobson's ministry, 16:07 "Focus on the Family" for a while and then she 16:10 actually broke off and established her own ministry, 16:14 and she has been a huge blessing to me. 16:17 This, again, I just want to show it again... 16:19 I would encourage any woman and also if you have a friend 16:24 that you know has been through it, 16:26 you know, there have been people who have come to us 16:28 and told us stories that they have a friend who had one, 16:30 and she has changed. 16:32 The subtitle there, "Finding Spiritual and Emotional Peace 16:39 After Abortion." Absolutely! 16:41 And what I wanted to add to this is before you give it away, 16:45 read it... it's so easy to buy a book and think, 16:48 "Okay quick fix, and then give it," and not even be 16:51 acquainted with what's on the inside... 16:54 So I would encourage people, even if they're not in 16:57 a position to give it away, if they know someone 17:00 and they want to minister to that particular person, 17:03 it would be good for them to read. 17:05 Sure, and those that may be watching this who have 17:08 ministries; they may have websites or Facebook pages 17:12 where they link certain books. 17:14 I'll put that book on my Facebook page and just 17:17 link it for there is somewhere around 7,000 likes on there 17:21 and it's growing and so I can just link that from Amazon, 17:25 and recommend the book for women and for men 17:28 who are struggling with this issue and, who knows, 17:30 I might get a lot of responses. 17:32 Some of my posts get quite a few, quite a few so 17:35 ministries can do these things too. Yes absolutely! 17:39 And one point just to reemphasize which I think 17:41 we have through this 13-part series... 17:45 Don't underestimate the effect that the abortion is having 17:52 on your friend, your sister, or your mom, 17:54 or your granddaughter. 17:56 You know the stories, as Dianne has mentioned, 17:58 that we've heard, the level of pain, 18:01 it takes the breath out of you. 18:03 I mean, women have shared things like... 18:07 "The enemy tells me, he taunts me with the fact that 18:10 the reason my children don't believe in the Lord 18:13 is because I had an abortion." 18:15 To wake up every morning with that, to go to bed with 18:18 it at night and, like Dianne when I met her, 18:21 there was a survival mode and she carried this deep 18:26 pain and she was dying to be set free, 18:30 and nobody knew, no one knew. 18:34 This is happening, as we've talked about, statistically, 18:37 the number of women who were being affected, 18:40 it's astronomical and the resources, 18:44 we do need to know as fellow believers, 18:47 what are they walking through, what are they experiencing... 18:49 Because, literally, the woman next to you, 18:51 the woman who you pass by in the hallway at church, 18:55 the woman you pass on the street, the woman on the bus... 18:57 I mean, it's everywhere, it's everywhere. 19:00 And, for us to be able to be alike, two people 19:04 who are being tormented with that kind of 19:06 condemnation...invaluable! 19:08 I'd like to recommend a resource 19:10 and it's the movie, "October Baby" 19:12 And I know you've both watched it. Yes 19:15 Somebody recommended it to me. 19:16 My wife got it from Netflix, 19:19 and I watched, it's about 1-1/2 hours. 19:21 It's about a woman and her and her brother were aborted, 19:27 but they survived the abortion, 19:29 and eventually they were adopted and the brother didn't make it, 19:33 but the woman did and she grew up with her adopted parents, 19:36 and finally when she was 18 or 19, she discovered 19:40 that these really weren't her parents... 19:41 So she began a long quest to try to find out where is my mom, 19:45 and then somehow, eventually, she found her, 19:48 and the woman, when she really realized 19:50 she was in front of her daughter that she had aborted, 19:53 but had survived, she just... she closed down, 19:56 but later on the daughter came back and left a note 20:00 on her desk that said, "I forgive you," 20:03 with her little baby sticker around her wrist... 20:06 And then she just broke down and bawled. 20:09 And, the movie is totally clean, it has a powerful message 20:14 about chastity and also about abortion, 20:17 the pain and the trauma, and it brought tears to my eyes. 20:20 Somebody wrote me and said he cried when he saw it, 20:23 and it's just a clean powerful film, "October Baby." 20:28 You know, you were talking about the chastity... 20:31 I think it's just like in this book, we teach our children 20:34 what's happening when mommy is pregnant and the baby is alive 20:39 and fingers and toes. 20:41 Just as important is to value yourself and to value your 20:47 purity from an early age, sacred territory and protect it, 20:53 keep it special. 20:55 So we really need to be educating the church 20:58 and educating children and everyone as much as we can 21:01 about the importance of moral purity because 21:05 that's really where it starts. 21:06 If we're pure morally, sexually, waiting until we get married, 21:10 and saving that gift for the context of marriage, 21:13 and then we're not going to get into these situations. 21:17 As generally speaking, I mean we're not going to get into 21:20 ... yeah the majority, where then the temptation comes 21:23 to have an abortion in the first place. 21:25 Got to hit the, like John the Baptist said, 21:27 "The ax has got to go to the root of the tree," 21:29 and sexual purity really is preventative, isn't it? 21:34 ... from getting into that situation in the first place. 21:36 It is, but also understanding why because we're valuable. 21:41 It all comes back to us being made in the image of the Lord. 21:44 The entire issue... if we were trees, if we were dogs, 21:47 this would not, abortion would not be an issue. 21:50 We're human beings made in the image of the Lord, 21:52 and so when He says, "Save yourself," 21:54 when He says, "Don't settle for the counterfeit," 21:56 He created us, He knows us very well. 22:00 And as we discussed before, when we stay in the bounds 22:02 of His law in those parameters, that is where 22:05 our hedge of protection, our safe place is. 22:07 Sexual purity and marriage is part of God's plan 22:10 for our happiness. Absolutely! 22:12 That's right. If, in fact... okay, but 22:15 say a woman does need resources because she has gotten pregnant. 22:20 There are "Crisis Pregnancy Centers"... 22:22 They may be called "Pregnancy Crisis Centers" now 22:25 across the United States, just like the one that my mom 22:28 went to that was operating out of the church back in 1981. 22:31 They are incredible resources. 22:34 They are available regionally, so it's not like you have one 22:38 hub and you fly to a certain place. 22:42 They are phenomenal resources. 22:44 They will actually give you pregnancy tests 22:46 for women who are pregnant. 22:48 They can provide formula, diapers. 22:52 Each Crisis Pregnancy Center is sort of a unit of 22:56 it's own providing different resources for the community, 23:01 and so it's really important to seek that out. 23:04 It doesn't just have physical resources, 23:07 they can help women in terms of finding somewhere to go. 23:11 There are shelters around the United States that will take 23:14 in a woman who is pregnant to help her 23:17 throughout her pregnancy. 23:18 So it's not just the post-abortive ministry, 23:20 it's women that are pregnant ministry so they don't 23:23 have an abortion and then what to do 23:24 if their home life is a mess, there are still people 23:27 that are willing to help them and walk through 23:30 this crisis with them. Exactly 23:32 Now what about churches themselves? 23:33 We don't have a lot of time, but quickly, 23:36 you're not only providing these resources, but you would like 23:40 to see churches become centers of resources as well, right? 23:44 Yes... absolutely! Yes Absolutely 23:46 You consider, I mean, in my own story, 23:49 the way that the church just embraced us, 23:51 they literally came alongside us and embraced us. 23:54 What if our churches were developing homes where 23:59 a woman could go to have her child if she chose life? 24:04 What if our churches were at least partnering with 24:07 adoption agencies and Crisis Pregnancy Centers, 24:12 so they were places that were reputable who were Christian, 24:17 and they wanted to place children with fellow believers. 24:22 And I'm just so thrilled because the church I attend 24:26 in western North Carolina, is very supportive of 24:29 our local Crisis Pregnancy Center. 24:31 So I want to encourage churches to look into that. 24:35 The women's ministry can play a huge part putting together 24:39 baskets with the diapers and bottles and various things, 24:42 just as an encouragement and support... we're there for you. 24:47 Men's ministries, there is family ministries, 24:50 There is so many different... 24:51 So this can be woven into men's ministries, 24:54 woven into women's ministries. Absolutely! 24:57 And someone just asked me not too long ago, 24:59 what they could do and I said, "Well, start by contacting 25:02 your local Crisis Pregnancy and find out what they need, 25:06 and what they have to offer, and get to know them 25:09 because you never know when someone is going to come 25:11 into your life and you say, "I have a resource." 25:16 Yes, and post-abortive counseling - they don't just 25:20 offer post-abortive counseling for the post-abortive, 25:23 but also counseling that people can go through 25:27 to understand what that experience was like 25:29 for the post-abortive. Right 25:30 On behalf of "White Horse Media" thank you for being here. 25:35 Thank you so much, this has been so good 25:36 and only God knows how many people are going to be helped 25:39 as a result of what you've shared here 25:42 during these 13 programs. 25:45 Wow... resources are available. 25:48 We're down at the end and I want to share just 25:51 some really important thoughts and one Bible verse which is in 25:55 Revelation 14:12, the Bible says "Here is the patience of the 25:59 saints. Here are they who keep the commandments of God, 26:03 and the faith of Jesus." 26:05 I'm totally convinced that God is developing a people, 26:08 a forgiven commandment-keeping people in these last days 26:13 who will be the people described in this verse. 26:15 God wants us to be sexually pure, 26:17 keeping the 7th commandment. 26:18 He wants us to be keeping the 6th commandment; 26:21 keeping all the commandments. 26:22 He wants us to be very clear that abortion violates 26:25 the 6th commandment, that it takes an innocent life... 26:28 For God's sake, the lives of little babies that have been 26:31 created by Jesus Christ. 26:33 If we expect the Holy Spirit to fall on us like we want to 26:37 happen in these last days, we have got to be a pure people. 26:41 We have to be a people that are not having abortions; 26:44 that are not promoting abortions; 26:46 that are not performing abortions, 26:50 and are not compromising in this issue. 26:52 This is a very important law of God issue. 26:55 And those who have had abortions, 26:57 we need to reach out to them with the love, mercy and grace 26:59 of Jesus showing people that they are still valuable, 27:01 they are still loved, that forgiveness and 27:03 full restoration is available through Jesus Christ, 27:06 and those who find this love, their voices can join the other 27:10 voices that can be heard. 27:12 God's law is a law of love and God wants to reveal that love 27:15 through His people in these last days. 27:17 And may God help us to be that people. 27:21 Dianne Wagner and Antionette Duck 27:23 share powerful life-changing information in this 27:26 13-part series, "The Abortion Controversy" 27:29 To order this 6-1/2 hour DVD set for only $34.95, 27:34 call 1-800-782-4253 27:41 Or you can write to the following: 27:47 Or order on line at www.whitehorsemedia.com 27:50 If you've been blessed by today's program, 27:54 and would like to help "White Horse Media" with your 27:57 financial support, you can call our toll free number 28:00 listed on the screen or donate online at "whitehorsemedia.com" 28:04 We solicit your prayers for our ministry, 28:06 and we thank you for any gift large or small 28:10 to help us reach people with the gospel. |
Revised 2024-08-27