Participants:
Series Code: TCR
Program Code: TCR180009B
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00:03 Welcome back to the Creator Revealed.
00:06 Today we've been talking about natural evil 00:10 and we're going to plumb the depths of that 00:13 just a little more with the special guest. 00:15 It's a pretty deep topic. Yes. 00:17 The guest that we're going to speak 00:19 with is Dr. Ronny Nalin. 00:21 Dr. Nalin is my colleague. 00:23 In fact, his office is right next to mine 00:25 at the Geoscience Research Institute. 00:28 His PhD is in geology. 00:30 But he has done a lot of thinking 00:33 about what we call the problem of evil 00:37 because as you know, 00:39 at the Geoscience Research Institute, 00:40 we are interested in this relationship 00:43 between science and faith. 00:46 So I'm delighted to have Dr. Nalin here with us. 00:50 And I want to start out by actually asking the question 00:56 that bothers me and I'm guessing 00:59 most other people which is, 01:01 okay, we know that according to the Bible, 01:05 death and suffering entered the world 01:07 because of man's sin. 01:10 But just because Adam sinned, why should animals suffer. 01:16 You know, I talked about my dog. 01:18 Why did my dog have to die because Adam chose to sin? 01:24 And that's a good question, Tim. 01:26 And it's a question that I think goes even beyond 01:31 the realm of the animals or other living beings. 01:35 It seems that there are imbalances 01:37 in the earth as a whole, 01:38 we experience events that are very troublesome 01:43 because they can bring that. 01:45 We could say that the whole system here on earth 01:49 brings pain and there are events 01:52 that are very hazardous 01:54 so it even goes beyond sickness or disease. 01:57 It is a dangerous world. 01:59 Why is it that our world should become dangerous 02:03 because of our mistakes? 02:05 And I think my way of reading these 02:07 is to see the system as an integrated system. 02:13 There are many different components 02:15 that are linked together. 02:16 And we are part of this system. 02:19 In fact, in Genesis it is said that, 02:22 "We were given dominion over this system." 02:25 And dominion means that we have a very intense relationship 02:29 with the rest of the creation. 02:31 So by our own choices, 02:33 we can affect the rest of the creation, 02:35 which is quite a humbling thought 02:37 if you think about it. 02:40 Think that you, your choices can have an effect 02:45 on what occurs in the world around us 02:47 and I think this is still true. 02:49 You know, in my area of study, which is in biology, 02:55 certainly this is something 02:56 that we spend a lot of time thinking about, 02:59 the impact that human beings have directly 03:03 on the rest of the creation is something 03:04 that we do have at least some limited control over. 03:08 And so when you referred to it being a dangerous world, 03:13 you're a geologist. 03:14 So what would be some examples of the danger out there? 03:17 I'm thinking of earthquakes but... 03:22 Yeah, I mean the classic ones are earthquakes, 03:25 volcanic activity, 03:27 and obviously also climate related events, 03:31 so hurricanes or floodings. 03:34 Floodings are actually one of the most dangerous. 03:38 So one could say, at this scale how can human decision 03:43 impact these kind of events? 03:45 And I would agree with those who are a little skeptical, 03:48 there are some aspects 03:50 that where we do have incredible effects. 03:55 For example, flooding can be the result of mismanagement 04:00 of water resources. 04:03 But when it comes to earthquakes, 04:05 for example, well, there are some earthquakes 04:07 that can be generated by activities of humans. 04:13 There's some link that has been established 04:15 with fracking and some earthquakes. 04:19 But in general, earthquakes are related 04:22 to the motion of plate. 04:24 So it's not like we can move the crust of the earth 04:28 or have an effect at that scale. 04:30 So the discussion then becomes at a greater level. 04:33 we start to think, why is it that God 04:37 allows for these things to occur? 04:39 Why did God allow... 04:41 Why do we call them acts of God when they happen? 04:45 Yeah, it means that in some ways, 04:48 God warrants the possibility for the system 04:52 to be in this way. 04:54 And so I do believe that we find also in the Bible 04:59 some facts that point in that direction by saying, 05:01 for example, that the sun rises on the evil 05:05 and the good or that God 05:07 sends rain on the righteous and unrighteous, 05:09 what does that mean? 05:10 It means that 05:11 God maintains the integrity of a sinful world. 05:15 So these things can happen. 05:17 And God in a sense, allows them to happen, 05:20 not that he is the source of them necessarily. 05:23 But why would he allow for a space 05:26 to exist where these things can happen, 05:28 and this for me can only be explained 05:31 if we put it in the context of this great cosmic conflict 05:35 between good and evil, 05:37 where God has to allow for sin to express itself. 05:42 Sin has to be expressed in a physical space. 05:46 If there is no physical space, if there's no possibility, 05:50 or humans to bring their choices 05:53 to their conclusions 05:55 are the consequences of their choices, 05:56 then you wouldn't see the meaning of what sin is 06:01 in the very end. 06:03 So what you're saying basically is if we didn't see 06:08 the natural consequences of sin actually play themselves out. 06:11 Why would we believe it was bad? 06:14 Why would it be evil? 06:16 You know, if sin had absolutely no consequences. 06:20 And we still have these difficulties 06:23 in our everyday life. 06:24 It's hard to understand what is good and what is evil. 06:28 It's very hard. 06:30 You know, one of the things that I really struggle with 06:33 is this business of blessings falling on the good 06:37 and on the evil. 06:39 But also that the consequences of evil 06:43 falling on the good people as well, 06:46 because it's so intrinsic to our nature 06:51 to say that is unjust. 06:53 Those who are righteous should not have to suffer. 06:58 But that is the nature of evil. Yeah. 07:01 So. 07:03 Yeah, I think that is also one of the reason 07:06 why I love the biblical narrative, why? 07:11 Because the Bible is trying to tell us, 07:13 God does not look and does not like evil. 07:17 God is for good. 07:19 And so what we experienced today is an anomaly. 07:22 So the biblical narrative 07:23 is not a narrative of progressive growth 07:26 and, you know, finding their way 07:30 through the hardness of life 07:32 and think God started things this way 07:35 because it was the only possible way. 07:37 So evil, well, it doesn't mean towards a good end, 07:41 so evil becomes the instrument that God uses to bring about 07:46 new possibilities and ultimately goodness, 07:49 that's not the biblical story. 07:51 The biblical story starts with something very good 07:55 and then all. 07:57 So for me the concept of a foe from a good creation 08:00 is very crucial because then I can side 08:03 on God's side and say, yes indeed 08:06 what I am seeing today, what I am experiencing today 08:09 is not part of God's original plan. 08:12 Is not how He designed the creation, 08:14 is not the way in which He wants us to live. 08:17 You know, when I think about it, 08:19 the way I think about it, 08:20 Ronny, is that when God created everything, 08:23 it was very good. 08:24 And he wanted to when he gave dominion to mankind, 08:29 it was to be exercised in covenantal love. 08:34 So when the fall happened, it wasn't just a moral fall, 08:38 it was a governmental fall, 08:40 because He passed it over to whom? 08:44 It was like a coup d'état. 08:45 Yeah, He handed the keys basically to Satan. 08:48 So that's the ruler of the error 08:51 depends on the error. 08:52 You know what else, Ronny, 08:54 that what you were saying really brought to mind 08:57 our discussion in another episode of theistic evolution, 09:00 where people are saying, hey, this suffering, 09:04 this death, this struggle, that is the plan 09:08 and it's interesting how the Bible sort of points 09:14 in precisely the opposite direction... 09:17 That's the consequence. When it comes to that. 09:20 Yeah, some critics say well, you still have to explain 09:24 why God allows for all these evil to exist 09:27 after the fall, 09:28 couldn't He shorten this or couldn't He intervene 09:31 to mitigate some of these consequences. 09:33 So still there is an argument there. 09:35 But what I think is the crucial difference is that, 09:39 it is not the way that God has designed 09:43 for the creation to be. 09:46 That's the key difference. 09:47 God has not decided to make the world in this way. 09:52 The model that we adopt is a model 09:54 where that is not part of the picture. 09:57 It came in later. 09:59 Well, in addition to that, what I love about it 10:01 is that the plan of salvation was also in place 10:05 at the foundation of the world that was there. 10:09 So God doesn't prevent us from doing evil 10:12 so then we don't have freedom of choice. 10:15 God provides that freedom of choice. 10:18 We exercise it, 10:20 but God has chosen to redeem us anyway. 10:24 He has a plan. Yes. 10:25 And time didn't exist before He created the earth. 10:28 And when we think about it, the Bible says 10:31 that a day is like 1,000 years 10:33 or 1,000 years is like a day to the Lord. 10:36 So it may seem long for us, but to God, 10:40 it's just kind of, it's a very short time 10:43 but we have to see it work out so that we know Nahum... 10:50 What is it, Nahum 1:9 says that, 10:52 "Evil will never rise again." 10:54 By the time we see 10:56 what the consequences of evil are. 10:58 We've done the experiment. We've done the experiment. 11:00 We'll see the outcome. 11:01 There is this concept of conflict 11:04 that is very important for me. 11:06 This concept of resistance sort of a battle 11:11 and it's important 11:13 because we can choose to be on God's side. 11:16 And we feel He is on our side, He is not on the against us, 11:20 He is not going after us, He is not punishing us, 11:22 He is active in the creation or good 11:25 and, you know, what I like about this concept 11:27 that it has very practical implications. 11:30 Today, even in a fallen world we can choose 11:34 when it comes to natural evil, which side we want to be on. 11:38 In fact, even a geologist can work to mitigate hazards. 11:44 Natural hazards are not random. They are not mysterious. 11:49 These things occur for very specific reasons 11:52 in very specific places and we can study them, 11:55 we can try to understand them better, 11:57 and in so doing I think we are siding with God 12:01 in trying to be the instruments, 12:03 the hands that bring about some goodness 12:06 into this fallen world. 12:07 And certainly siding with God is the way that we want to go. 12:11 I want to thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Nalin. 12:15 And well, you know, the interesting thing to me 12:19 is even with all of this evil that we do see in the world, 12:25 even with all of that, 12:27 there is hope that the Bible gives 12:30 we are not alone. 12:32 We're not without hope. 12:34 We have this plan of salvation. 12:38 Yes, evil exists now. 12:41 But yes, we have a firm hope 12:43 in what God will do in the future. 12:47 Amen, and God's going to create a new heaven and a new earth, 12:50 where there will be no more pain or sorrow. 12:53 Join us next time. |
Revised 2019-04-15