The Creator Revealed

Alternatives to the Biblical Creation

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript



Series Code: TCR

Program Code: TCR180011B

00:03 Welcome back,
00:04 we had been exploring theistic evolution
00:08 and the issues with that.
00:09 And now we're going to go
00:11 just a little bit deeper into some alternatives.
00:14 And we have a special guest.
00:15 Tim, would you like to introduce him?
00:17 That's right. This is Dr. Jim Gibson.
00:19 Dr. Gibson is the director
00:21 of the Geoscience Research Institute.
00:23 Your boss.
00:25 My boss, so I have to be on my best behavior.
00:27 Yes, you do.
00:28 And so as you said, you know,
00:31 we've been looking at theistic evolution.
00:34 But is that really the only alternative out there
00:40 that we see among Christians or among other people?
00:43 What precisely is up with that?
00:49 Obviously,
00:50 we have things like materialistic Darwinism,
00:57 biblical creation.
00:58 Those can be considered to be
00:59 sort of opposite ends of the spectrum, I guess.
01:02 Theistic evolution would say, oh, no, with it,
01:05 with a happy compromise in the middle.
01:08 But what other things might be on that spectrum?
01:10 That's why we have Dr. Gibson here
01:12 to help us explore at least one,
01:14 possibly two other alternatives.
01:17 So welcome, Dr. Gibson. Hi, Dr. Gibson.
01:21 Thank you.
01:23 And so let me ask you this.
01:26 If it's not theistic evolution,
01:27 if it's not materialistic Darwinism,
01:29 if it's not biblical creation,
01:32 what else might a person believe?
01:36 Well, there are several alternatives.
01:37 But I think one of the most interesting ones is a theory
01:41 that is really based on the fossil record.
01:44 The fossils are based...
01:46 If the fossils occur in layers in the rocks in a sequence,
01:51 and there's one theory that says,
01:54 well, that sequence is the sequence
01:57 in which God created them on this world.
02:00 So we could call it progressive creation.
02:03 Okay, so then the idea would be
02:07 okay, you go down to the bottom of those layers of rock
02:10 that have fossils in them,
02:12 and you see things like maybe something like fish down there,
02:16 and you don't see giraffes.
02:19 So the idea would be, "Okay, God created all kinds of fish,
02:23 and then He stopped creating, and then what some eons later,
02:28 He created some more things."
02:32 Yes, yes, that's the basic idea.
02:35 And it incorporates both these, the discreet act of creation
02:40 along with some evolutionary ideas.
02:44 So in the fossil record,
02:46 if you find the sudden abrupt appearance
02:50 of some new kind of fossil,
02:52 you explain that by saying,
02:54 "Well, that must be a new creation."
02:57 If you see a kind of a graduated series
03:00 of fossils,
03:02 you would say, "Well, that must be
03:03 where God guided evolution for a while."
03:06 So God's alternating between these creation
03:09 and evolutionary episodes.
03:11 That's what I understand the meaning
03:13 by progressive creation.
03:14 So then, because of these fossils, obviously,
03:19 you would have things dying
03:21 because fossils are made from dead things, right?
03:26 Yes. Yeah, so...
03:29 It introduces a theological problem.
03:33 There are problems with a theory
03:35 that are theological problems,
03:37 there's problems with the science,
03:40 and there's problems with the biblical standard.
03:44 Well, let's look at the science first.
03:47 Okay. Okay, the science.
03:50 Well, what is the scientific evidence
03:52 that God created in this pattern?
03:56 There isn't any.
03:57 It's entirely made up.
04:00 So you can't really call this a scientific theory at all.
04:06 In fact, science tries to explain things
04:10 without appealing to God's action.
04:13 So the minute you put God in there
04:15 saying that God created and God guided evolution,
04:19 you have gone
04:20 from what most people want to call science
04:24 to kind of a philosophical interpretation,
04:28 a kind of a religious kind of an idea.
04:31 And I guess that if you are a scientist
04:33 you would say, "Okay,
04:35 with the biblical creation,
04:37 you have one big miracle,
04:39 whereas with this progressive creation,
04:42 you have many miracles that you have to have."
04:47 So that would be probably very problematic,
04:49 I would imagine, to somebody
04:51 who didn't like to have too many miracles going on.
04:56 Well, and not only that,
04:57 how would you test such an idea?
05:00 There isn't any way to test that idea?
05:02 It's not a scientific idea at all.
05:03 Does it make any predictions? If you want to get in, but...
05:08 No, I can't imagine what it would predict.
05:10 I mean, suppose I want to explain
05:12 the fossil record in a different way,
05:14 instead of saying God created in this sequence,
05:18 let's say God arranged the fossils in that sequence
05:21 during the flood.
05:23 That's just the way the flood put them.
05:25 That isn't scientific either,
05:27 but it's just as scientific as to say
05:29 He created in that order.
05:31 It's just made up.
05:34 And does the sequence of the fossils
05:37 match in some way,
05:39 things like the days of creation
05:41 or something like that?
05:43 Well, that's a biblical problem.
05:45 Know that flowering plants occur early
05:49 in the creation week,
05:51 perhaps among the first things created on day three.
05:54 In the fossil record,
05:56 you don't see any flowering plants
05:57 until a lot of layers have accumulated
06:01 that have marine animals, and terrestrial animals,
06:04 and birds, and fish, all kinds of things.
06:08 So they just... It just doesn't match.
06:11 So biblically, it doesn't work, scientifically it doesn't work,
06:15 theologically, it's very problematic
06:19 because it incorporates the idea of death,
06:23 and evil, and suffering, and violence
06:26 all occurring before humans ever appeared
06:30 in the fossil record.
06:32 And why would that be a problem?
06:35 Well, if Jesus came to pay the penalty for our sin
06:41 by dying in our place,
06:43 as the Bible pretty clearly teaches,
06:47 then that theory just makes it pointless,
06:51 just makes it pointless.
06:52 What was Jesus doing here on the cross?
06:54 Well, because in other words, what you're saying is that
06:57 if you're going by the fossil record,
06:59 there's a death and destruction
07:03 before sin, before man...
07:07 Or committed sin.
07:10 So death doesn't come from sin at all,
07:12 it's just part of the order that God intended.
07:15 So the way I see it, Jim, is that...
07:17 It is not just death,
07:20 it's not just death,
07:21 it's also violence and suffering.
07:24 Yes.
07:26 So the way I see it is
07:27 that you just have to pretty much throw out all of the Bible
07:32 or a good portion of the Bible,
07:34 and including the plan of salvation
07:36 in order to believe this progressive creationism.
07:42 Yeah, it's basically a make it up
07:44 as you go along kind of theory.
07:46 So then, what you're saying,
07:49 it seems to me as that
07:50 something like progressive creation
07:52 really has the same fundamental problems
07:55 that theistic evolution has,
07:57 but possibly even more
08:00 because it claims
08:02 to have these kind of arbitrary interventions
08:06 by God every now and again.
08:10 Yeah, it solves the problem of theistic evolution
08:13 in the fact that it provides a mechanism
08:16 for unusual things to happen.
08:19 But it does so at the expense of God's character
08:23 because it brings in a creator, who is, as one person said,
08:27 He creates and then destroys, and then He creates,
08:29 and then He destroys, and then He creates
08:31 and then He destroys over and over again.
08:34 Now, what kind of a God is that?
08:36 Well, I guess we'd have to be worrying
08:38 that He might be doing some more destroying
08:40 in the near future instead of coming back
08:42 and saving us, doing a new creation.
08:48 That seemed more problematic.
08:52 Well, in the fossil record,
08:54 if the flowering plants don't show up
08:57 until the deposits of the animals in this,
09:01 what were they eating?
09:03 Well, yeah, that would be a major problem.
09:05 I know that you do find
09:08 in the fossil record some plants,
09:10 but not necessarily the flowering plants
09:12 with organisms that might have eaten them.
09:15 So there are probably solutions to these problems.
09:18 It's just that
09:19 you have the flowering plants showing up much later
09:25 in the fossil sequence
09:28 than you do in the sequence of creation days.
09:31 So in other words, this isn't biblical at all.
09:34 It's not going off the biblical account.
09:37 It's simply divorced from the Bible completely.
09:41 You're making up your own religion as you go along.
09:45 Well, it's also divorced from science.
09:47 Yeah.
09:49 Except for the fact
09:50 that we do observe a sequence in the fossil record,
09:52 but the explanation for that sequence is just made up.
09:57 Well, thank you so much for helping us
09:59 explore progressive creation, Dr. Gibson.
10:02 It's been a pleasure, I appreciate your insights.
10:05 Bye-bye. My pleasure.
10:08 You know, Dr. Gibson really sort of bought out
10:11 what to me is a fundamental problem
10:14 with many of these ideas.
10:17 They are neither biblical nor scientific,
10:23 and certainly not scientific
10:24 in the materialistic understanding of things.
10:28 And, you know, the very people who...
10:30 And I know you've been criticized
10:32 as I've been criticized for having faith
10:35 in the biblical account of creation.
10:38 To me, it takes more faith to think,
10:41 look at what they're saying, plus, suddenly, the whole...
10:48 God's whole character,
10:50 everything that I want to believe
10:52 about God is completely changed.
10:53 Exactly.
10:55 It turns God into some kind of monster
10:57 and the creator at the same time
10:59 because He's sort of creating and destroying,
11:02 and creating and destroying.
11:04 And, yeah, I don't know,
11:07 is that a God that I would want to worship?
11:09 And how should I live my life in response to,
11:13 to something like that?
11:14 God might decide to do a new creation,
11:15 and I'll be wiped off the face of the earth
11:18 as a result of that.
11:19 How much more attractive the God of the Bible is?
11:25 You know, the God who not only created us,
11:30 and everything else,
11:31 but the God who came to save us
11:35 and has promised a new creation,
11:38 something that we can have faith in
11:40 because we have seen
11:43 that He can create in the first place,
11:45 and we've learned.
11:47 And we've certainly seen that
11:48 He can recreate when you see conversion started.
11:50 And we've learned,
11:51 we've learned some of the things
11:53 from that creation.
11:54 Well, I want to thank you for joining us
11:56 on this episode.
11:58 This is not the only one.
11:59 I look forward to seeing you again.
12:01 I hope that you'll join us in the future.


Revised 2019-04-19