Participants:
Series Code: TDYL
Program Code: TDYL250019B
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00:11 We are here with the Conways and their ministry Stamina for
00:15 Life. 00:16 Just want to remind you that we are taking your questions and 00:21 your concerns. 00:22 If you have a question or concern, please email to live 00:26 at 3abn.tv, live at 3abn.tv or text to 618-228-3975 and again 00:41 be sure to text and not call. 00:44 Amen. 00:45 We have a question, but before we go there, I just want to let 00:48 you know what Anissa and I were thinking for this segment. 00:53 We want to go to school, okay? 00:55 We want to throw some scenarios that some of our viewers and 01:00 listeners may be experiencing or know someone that's 01:03 experiencing and we just want to talk about it. 01:05 We just want to break it down. 01:07 But before we do, we have another question, do we not? 01:09 We do have a question. 01:11 This one reads, how do I approach my 15 year old 01:15 grandson? 01:15 All his interests have changed. 01:18 I know he was abused sexually, but when I ask what's wrong, he 01:22 says nothing. 01:23 So he's going downhill, moving away from God, sad demeanor 01:27 shut down and his grades have gone down. 01:29 Please help. 01:31 I don't know how to even approach him about it. 01:33 He gets defensive with me, but he's such a good child, but 01:38 slowly going down. 01:43 That's such an unfortunate experience for this young man 01:52 to have gone through. 01:54 Go ahead, baby. 02:00 we love and our families who have had experiences that are 02:05 such as this, unfortunately this is common. 02:08 In the world that we live in today, we are told that 02:11 statistically one in three of young women have experienced 02:15 things such as sexual abuse and we are told it happens less 02:18 with men, but I don't believe that. 02:20 I believe that in our culture, it has just been not acceptable 02:24 for men to talk about it. 02:25 And so one of the things that I want to encourage this 02:29 grandparent in is to know that your presence means everything. 02:34 Your ability to be there and to show up as a loving, safe 02:38 person is so important. 02:41 It is difficult when you have gone through such a shaming 02:44 experience because that's what abuse does. 02:46 Unfortunately, the people who are abused, we carry the shame 02:49 instead of the people who have committed the abuse. 02:51 And so one of the things that I want to encourage the 02:54 grandparent to do is to first seek help, right? 02:58 More than just right now, right? 03:00 Beyond this episode, seeking help, someone professionally 03:04 who can walk alongside you to help you to be able to know how 03:08 to show up. 03:11 abused person. 03:16 finding support. 03:20 people who are caring for those children so that you can have 03:24 that support and get some tools for yourself to be able to walk 03:27 alongside. 03:28 Secondly, one of the things I would say is also finding help 03:31 for your grandson, right? 03:33 It sounds like you're aware for a reason. 03:36 I don't know if it's because he's told you or the 03:38 information is but walking alongside him and finding 03:42 someone who can come and help him, right? 03:45 To process this traumatic experience in his life. 03:48 And those are some very intricate steps that you can do 03:51 right now, right? 03:52 You can read, you can get information, right? 03:55 There are books that are available and there's things, 03:58 periodicals that are out there to educate us on how to help, 04:02 right? 04:06 And then there are and so there are some of those things that I 04:10 also we have available on our website and we, you know, put 04:13 those things up at stamina for life dot com. 04:16 So, but I just want to commend you for being present. 04:19 I want to commend you for being willing to acknowledge that 04:23 those things are very powerful and not hiding, you know, I 04:27 would just add to that. 04:29 Sometimes whenever we're working with someone who's gone 04:32 through a traumatic experience, I think it's healthy for us to 04:37 be aware that people may not have words to express what it 04:42 is that they're feeling. 04:44 So when you ask, you know, your grandson, you know, how are you 04:50 doing and they say, well, I'm all right or I don't know, they 04:55 may not know. 04:57 They may not know because they don't know how to articulate 04:59 vocabulary. 05:04 And you can imagine just the whole gambit of emotions that a 05:09 person can experience. 05:12 And if they don't have the vocabulary to be able to 05:16 express that, it can be frustrating to the individual 05:20 as well. 05:24 don't have a vocabulary to say, this is what I'm feeling right 05:28 here. 05:28 Yeah. 05:32 with teenagers, right? 05:33 First and foremost, it's rough out here when you're trying to 05:39 develop a rapport, right? 05:41 Sometimes, but an experience that I had with one of my 05:43 youngest children, my son, he had left school. 05:47 We homeschooled for so many years. 05:48 We went through this transition period where now he's leaving 05:50 home to go to school every day away from us. 05:53 And it was and I remember him coming home from school one 05:57 day. 05:59 people, right? 06:00 Talking and doing workshops and coaching. 06:03 And he sees this thing I carry around called an emotion wheel. 06:08 And here we are thinking that we're very emotionally aware as 06:11 parents, right? 06:12 But you don't realize how much vocabulary and emotional 06:16 vocabulary is important. 06:17 Long story short, he came home from school because I was 06:19 constantly asking him, what's wrong, right? 06:21 Isn't that frustrating as a parent? 06:22 What's wrong? 06:25 them? 06:27 Right? 06:29 Well, one day he came home and he took out of his pocket and 06:33 he laid this piece of paper out and I opened it up. 06:35 It was one of my emotion wheels. 06:36 And what he did is he marked off the emotions that he was 06:39 feeling. 06:41 That was a instance for me as a parent to say, wait a minute, 06:44 all the times that I was asking him, he really didn't know what 06:47 to say. 06:47 Yes, he knew something was wrong. 06:49 So I sat down with him and walked through this emotion 06:52 wheel. 06:53 Oh, why are you sad? 06:54 Why are you frustrated? 06:55 Why are you whatever you're feeling? 06:57 Right? 07:01 And at that moment, ah, you've got a chance to break a 07:04 generational curse. 07:06 Is that emotion wheel something that was available online? 07:10 Can we? 07:10 Yeah. 07:11 Yeah. 07:15 and vocabulary that we simply stand in the middle. 07:18 If you see an emotion wheel, we live in the center that says, 07:21 I'm happy, happy, sad, angry, angry, you know, those are the 07:25 simple words. 07:26 Yeah. 07:30 than sad. 07:30 You are disappointed. 07:32 Okay. 07:38 group of peers that you've been trying to get to maybe get away 07:43 from a particularly bad behavior and they haven't 07:46 responded. 07:47 And you are exhausted. 07:50 I, I love these people and I want to continue in community 07:53 with them, but they keep doing these and I'm not, they're not 07:56 listening to me when I'm trying to appeal to them to come away. 07:59 How do you feel? 08:00 I'm exhausted or I'm ashamed grandma, you know, maybe he's 08:04 ashamed. 08:05 You know, this thing has happened to me and I don't know 08:07 how to talk about it. 08:09 You know, how do we communicate with our children that emotions 08:14 are okay. 08:16 You know, this is huge. 08:17 And I think culturally I want to address that because in a 08:21 lot of, and when I say culture, I say this all the time, my 08:24 husband, we're not talking about the color of your skin. 08:25 We're talking about the homes you grew up in. 08:27 That's the very first culture that any of us are exposed to. 08:30 And we may have the same color skin, but our homes were 08:33 completely different, right? 08:34 How they did things in his home and how did things in our home. 08:38 So when you want to talk about how do we get over this 08:41 precipice of talking about emotions, you first got to be 08:43 willing to acknowledge whether or not that's where you come 08:45 from, right? 08:46 And the homes that we grew up in, is this what we were 08:49 allowed to do? 08:50 Or am I going to even have to start over a fresh and a new? 08:53 And so it takes vulnerability as a parent. 08:55 It takes vulnerability. 08:56 Yeah. 08:58 How do you feel? 09:00 And then when they really start telling you like, okay, that's 09:02 enough. 09:03 Stop right there. 09:04 You know, especially when they start telling you how they feel 09:08 about you and how you show up. 09:11 And it's like, well, I was asking you about yourself. 09:14 As you start telling me about me. 09:16 So, you know, understanding where we are is an extremely 09:21 important thing. 09:22 What we found is that family worship is a wonderful place 09:27 for us to begin to explore because there's a principle 09:29 that we operate on and we believe this is a universal 09:33 principle. 09:34 And it goes like this. 09:35 It's easier for people to examine the emotions and the 09:40 mistakes of others than it is for any of us to examine our 09:45 own emotions and mistakes. 09:47 So if we're reading a story about one of the individuals in 09:51 the Bible, it's easy for me to use this as a moment for my 09:56 children, for me to ask, how do you think this person felt? 10:02 What do you think are some of the emotions that this person 10:04 will be going through? 10:05 And they can speak freely and openly about David or Moses or 10:10 Joshua or John or Matthew or Mark or Paul or, you know, 10:15 Rebecca, Sarah, you know, Hagar, Eve, any of the 10:19 characters in the Bible because it's not them. 10:21 Right? 10:22 I'm merely examining someone else in a scenario and I am 10:27 attaching feeling words to what they might be going through. 10:30 This is one of the ways that we began to build and develop 10:35 emotional vocabulary for our children. 10:39 And we're doing it in a space that's safe because now the 10:43 subject is not them. 10:44 And why is that important? 10:47 Because if I'm and I tell my parents, well, I'm really 10:52 frustrated with you because you don't keep your word. 10:56 Well, see, you know, most the conversation is never going to 10:59 get there because they're like, I can't say that to my, I can't 11:03 say that that's how I feel about that. 11:05 I'm really mad and I'm angry or frustrated with them. 11:08 Right. 11:15 space and in a safe space so that when the conversation 11:18 needs to come and become more personal with this context. 11:23 Number one, I'm, there is a vocabulary and number two, my 11:27 children know that I'm open and my family community understands 11:30 that I'm also open for you to share how you feel about me. 11:35 And that means, and we've done this before, you know, I 11:39 remember one time I asked our kids, we were at family worship 11:42 and I said, we had read some story and I said, I said, do 11:46 you, do you think that, do you think that I am, 11:53 maybe it was controlling or something like that. 11:57 And my oldest daughter said, no, I don't think that you're 12:00 like that. 12:05 do them. 12:07 And I was like, that was deep. 12:08 I know I was like, and I was like, you know what? 12:12 You're right. 12:15 But then I'm thinking like, man, there are other ways other 12:21 than the way that I would do them. 12:22 Yes. 12:22 Yes. 12:23 Yes. 12:23 Wow. 12:24 There are other ways. 12:24 Yeah. 12:27 Yes. 12:28 So it's whoa. 12:30 But we got to make space for that. 12:32 Let's just stay there a second and, and then help our parents 12:36 out. 12:38 What, what mindset should we have? 12:40 How do we getting ready, you know, approach our children or 12:47 listen to our children? 12:48 What mindset when they're about to kick the truth out about us, 12:53 when they're about to use this word, gave us their subjective 12:56 experience. 13:00 Well, yes, yes, yes. 13:03 Yeah. 13:07 We need to be open. 13:08 We need to be vulnerable. 13:10 We don't need to be defensive. 13:12 I'm sorry. 13:13 Go ahead. 13:14 And you know, we, we use these words and these terms a lot, 13:17 right? 13:22 through this thing called raising children. 13:23 And I'm like, Oh, what real soul winning is about, right? 13:28 We, we love to say that word soul winning. 13:31 The first soul you're going to ever win is in your house. 13:34 You know what I'm saying? 13:35 And, and it doesn't come because you do everything 13:37 perfectly. 13:41 I'm not saying I've done it perfectly, but it's been 13:44 humbling being a parent because I could tell them what to do, 13:48 but am I demonstrating to them how to do it? 13:51 And part of that is also in conversation. 13:54 If I want them to honor me, am I honoring them? 13:57 Oh, yes. 13:58 Yes. 14:02 that because I'm the oldest and because I'm the hurry head in 14:05 the home, I'm to be respected at all times. 14:08 No matter what, right? 14:09 Should be seen and not heard. 14:11 All these damaging things that throughout the years created 14:13 unhealthy adults, right? 14:16 But my ego is not injured because my children come and 14:19 tell me I've done something wrong. 14:20 I don't lose my place as a mother. 14:22 He doesn't lose his place as a father or an authority figure. 14:24 In fact, I can endear my children to me by having 14:28 humility. 14:29 If that, yeah. 14:30 Yeah. 14:34 demonstration of what it means to actually live and love in 14:38 the way that Jesus would. 14:39 And that means, you know, that means making myself vulnerable. 14:45 And, and I think, you know, humility, humility. 14:49 And what, what I mean when I say humility is if I've already 14:53 gone to the woodshed with me and Jesus, and he's told me 14:57 this, then I'm open. 14:58 I'm like, okay, go ahead. 14:59 Yeah. 15:00 Yeah. 15:02 I've seen it. 15:02 Yes. 15:06 weaknesses are already. 15:08 Okay. 15:13 out some blind spots in areas that I haven't seen, but I'm 15:16 already in the habit of daily going to Jesus so that he can 15:21 point out things. 15:22 And so that not always that, you know, my worship is just go 15:26 to Jesus. 15:28 Not that, but you know, we're told the closer that we get to 15:32 Jesus, the more that we'll see our imperfections and the areas 15:35 in lives where we're not like him. 15:37 And so that's a part of my relationship with Jesus. 15:41 Likewise, when I turn and whether it's my relationship 15:44 with my wife or my children, there's going to be things that 15:47 come up and I need to be open to listen to those things. 15:51 No, no, no, no, no. 15:55 know, you can tell me some things, but don't be 15:57 disrespectful. 15:59 Is that okay? 16:01 Is that okay? 16:02 And listen, let me be quite honest with you. 16:04 Um, and with these children that God has blessed us with, 16:07 I've had those moments, right? 16:09 Where they have spoken to, and I've never had my child lie, 16:11 you know, or yell at me or anything of that nature, right? 16:13 Bless the Lord. 16:14 Oh, my soul. 16:18 But, um, yes. 16:20 Have I had my children speak to me and they're, they have, 16:23 they're angry or frustrated, right? 16:25 Or, or, you know, they have emotions, you know, and our 16:27 emotions. 16:29 Yeah. 16:32 I tell my kids, they, they, they're, they should be 16:34 thankful. 16:35 They got this parent, this, this, this pre, you know, post, 16:41 you know, save, sanctify, feel like they are blessed, you 16:45 know? 16:48 There are times when I want to revert back to what I'm like, 16:50 no, Lord, I'm doing some things differently, but by the grace 16:53 and power of God, you know? 16:54 And I think given one another grace, cause I gotta ask myself 16:57 the question, have I ever spoken to them and not 17:02 respected them as sons and daughters of God? 17:08 Can you define that? 17:10 Cause we're well versed on respecting the parents. 17:14 What does respecting the child look like? 17:16 What is that? 17:16 Right, right. 17:22 the Lord's heritage and they are on loan to us from God, 17:28 which means that we are responsible as stewards to care 17:32 for them, which means that I need to speak to them with the 17:37 respect that is due to them as image bearers of God. 17:43 Right? 17:48 than I treat my own. 17:49 I should not speak to other people's children as though, 17:53 okay, I can't say that to you cause I'm afraid your mama or 17:55 your daddy might come and you know, but then I speak any kind 17:58 of way to my own children, right? 18:01 Because I need to understand not a human mother or father, 18:06 but the divine father is going to, Hey, why are you talking to 18:09 my child like that? 18:11 Right? 18:12 And you know what? 18:15 conversation because there's a lot of convoluted things out 18:19 there, but people watch how you treat your child. 18:23 Let's be real out here. 18:24 Right? 18:27 children in such a way that is so demeaning and so broken 18:31 predators look for people. 18:34 I'm just going to be honest about predators of children 18:39 look for people and families where the children are demeaned 18:44 and belittled and cursed, cursed at and called out of 18:49 their names and just negative speaking. 18:52 Right? 18:56 simply a child, you know, and it is heartbreaking because 19:00 predators watch that and then they come in and they use that 19:04 for one, because they don't believe you anyway. 19:07 They don't listen to you anyway. 19:09 Right? 19:13 right? 19:17 things. 19:18 Right? 19:21 that we're talking to them, because that's the way grandma 19:23 and grandpa spoke to us or how we were raised that I'm giving 19:27 my children over on a silver because they're desperately 19:30 looking for someone to treat them with respect. 19:32 Yeah. 19:35 say. 19:36 Remember the disciples were like, get those kids out of 19:39 here. 19:41 It's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, suffer the little 19:43 children to come unto me for such as the kingdom. 19:46 And then over and over in Jesus's teachings, he says, you 19:49 must become as little children. 19:51 And we can't forget that in that social economic time, 19:55 children were the most vulnerable, a part of the most 19:59 vulnerable. 20:04 wrath. 20:05 Right? 20:10 speech should be seasoned with grace. 20:11 And that's not only when you're talking to the pastor, that's 20:14 not only when you're talking to one of the elders or the 20:16 deacons in the church or the deaconess, it should be also 20:19 when we're speaking to one another. 20:21 And then of course, Paul says, speaking the truth and love. 20:26 Right? 20:31 Yeah. 20:31 Go ahead. 20:32 You said something that really touched me, but I can just 20:34 confess. 20:36 So we're, we're pastoral families and boy, that's 20:39 something I wish we had some time to talk about. 20:41 Let's just, yeah. 20:44 Well, my kids would get on me about, so I'm sitting in 20:47 church, you know, and somebody's kid just go cutting 20:50 across the church, you know, something. 20:52 And I'm like, hey, get that young man. 20:57 And my kids are like, daddy, if you would, yes, I would. 21:07 So talk to us about that. 21:09 Cause you said the kids are watching and you said, don't 21:12 treat other kids better than to help us, help us out. 21:15 Yeah. 21:19 having this conversation about this new wave of what they call 21:22 gentle parenting. 21:23 Right? 21:24 And I guess, you know, it's this, this idea and we call it 21:27 the pendulum. 21:30 left. 21:32 were like, man, it's like, they're sitting in church and 21:35 kids are just like, you know, having a field day and when we 21:39 were little, we were popped and we were something, you know, 21:41 and one of the comments that they made, and I, and I 21:43 understood right, what they were saying. 21:45 They said, you know, when we were younger, you know, that 21:47 when we see what they say, when they see someone, their 21:50 children are sitting there and they're quiet, they look at 21:52 that person, they say, man, those are good parents, right? 21:54 Their children, they're raising their children well. 21:56 And I said, you want to be careful with that. 22:01 But just because a child is perceivably well behaved, it 22:04 doesn't mean it's because their parents are good parents. 22:07 Some of us are just really good at instilling fear into our 22:10 children. 22:15 know, because you can't reason with a kid too much, you know, 22:17 when they're a little, but there's a difference between, 22:21 you know, instilling fear, right? 22:23 And this, this, this idea of like, listen, you know, the 22:27 respect and honor part, right? 22:28 Versus me having control. 22:30 And I love for people to think I have control because they see 22:32 my children not doing anything. 22:34 I know plenty of children who you could talk to today who 22:37 would tell you that at home it is literally horrible. 22:41 So they don't act up because they know if they were to act 22:44 up, they would be beaten or mistreated or something like 22:46 that. 22:46 Right? 22:50 I think that when we talk about the pendulum of swing that 22:53 we're in right now, the gentle parenting is because at one 22:55 point in time, we were swinging all the way over to the, oh, we 22:58 didn't talk about anything, no extension cords, you know, 23:02 shoes, you know, or people being abused and we couldn't 23:05 talk about it or say anything about it because it was cliche, 23:08 right? 23:12 it's like, oh, we just let the kids do whatever you're here. 23:14 Get them the mic, let them preach. 23:16 It's like, no, but finding a balance. 23:18 And as you've been here, I remember being a pastoral wife. 23:22 My husband was always, is always in the pulpit and me 23:25 with the babies. 23:25 Right? 23:26 That's a hard space to be in. 23:28 You know what I'm saying? 23:31 straight because you're tired and you're not getting any 23:33 sleep. 23:38 different stages that parenting, you know? 23:41 And, um, yeah. 23:48 we exist in a, in a context where people expect us. 23:53 And this is not just pastoral. 23:55 I think it's, you know, um, in, in Christianity, um, in 24:00 general, and more specifically Seventh-day Adventist 24:03 Christianity, there's an expectation of things being 24:07 done. 24:07 We have so much counsel. 24:11 If you're not doing it right, then you are not following 24:16 counsel. 24:17 You are not raising your kids right. 24:20 And none of us wants to be seen that way. 24:23 And so, but unfortunately a lot of our parenting is based on 24:29 fear of being seen as a bad parent. 24:33 And what that does is it actually, it actually robs my 24:39 children of the privilege of being parented the way they 24:43 deserve to be parented because I'm more concerned, not about 24:48 them, but about what other people think. 24:51 Yeah. 24:52 So easy, so easy. 24:53 And so, um, our children, by the grace of God, they should, 24:58 they should, they should be able to say, you know, my dad, 25:03 my mom are as gracious to us as they are to others. 25:10 And I want to speak to something because I think we 25:12 don't talk about it often. 25:14 Um, you know, ministry families, particularly ministry 25:16 children need a lot of ministering too. 25:19 Yes. 25:23 different reasons. 25:24 And they are last on the list. 25:26 And I remember one day someone came to my daughter many, many 25:29 years ago and they came and said, you know, you're, you're 25:32 a pastor's kid. 25:33 You need, you need to, you need to, you know, better. 25:35 Right. 25:38 say, listen, don't ever approach my kid that way. 25:40 Right. 25:44 mature in their walk as any other kid does. 25:47 And you know, the proverbial thoughts about pastoral kids, 25:50 PKs, right? 25:51 There's something else I want people to consider that 25:55 children. 26:00 grew up as pastoral kids, who want nothing to do with God. 26:04 And people think it's because the, no, it's because those 26:07 children went through a lot and they saw a lot and they went, 26:10 they experienced a lot of things that people don't know 26:12 about. 26:17 Even though being present, they didn't get the emotion and the 26:19 love and the attention, you pressure to, because the 26:26 pastor's family is supposed to. 26:29 Yeah. 26:29 And we apply it. 26:31 Yeah. 26:34 Listen, you're a pastor's kid. 26:37 You need to. 26:38 And of course we're not giving them license to wild out. 26:41 Right. 26:42 Absolutely not. 26:43 But again, help us out, say something to us. 26:44 We can learn by heart. 26:45 What do you say to that? 26:47 Yeah. 26:51 when we can put our fingers on it, when we can't, this is a, 26:55 this is for us, it's a sign of, of emotional spiritual health. 27:00 Yeah. 27:05 Christian principle. 27:06 We don't encourage people to just pray. 27:09 I mean, pray whatever you do. 27:11 If you pray, that's good. 27:13 But we say it's best if you pray and you ask God for 27:19 forgiveness of specific sins. 27:22 I just, Oh Lord, forgive me for my sins. 27:25 Amen. 27:26 Man, that was a rough one. 27:27 But no, God, I was unkind. 27:30 God, I was impatient. 27:31 Yeah. 27:34 So likewise, when we are speaking with our children, we 27:38 can say, Hey, listen, you know, I realized God brought to my 27:43 attention that I put a lot of pressure on you. 27:47 And I spoke to you and I, I realized that that could have 27:52 given you the impression that I was more concerned about how 27:56 people saw me and our family than what your actual 27:59 experience was. 28:00 And I want to apologize for that because I love you and so 28:04 forth and so on. 28:05 When we can put our fingers on what people are, have 28:10 experienced and what they may have felt, then what it does is 28:15 it helps them to understand my mom or my dad. 28:19 They get me. 28:21 Yeah. 28:26 man, that hit home. 28:28 Yeah. 28:33 families, with anyone else acknowledging so that you can 28:39 make that change. 28:41 Yes. 28:41 Yes. 28:45 there may be somebody watching, right? 28:47 Who is that PK? 28:48 You know, I don't know how often they're addressed or 28:51 they're talked to, but just to be able to talk to them for a 28:54 moment and just to express to you that you are seen and you 28:57 are her. 29:02 one that is being given the attention or the one that is 29:06 being prayed for, or there are things that you've experienced 29:09 that no one will ever know about, right? 29:10 There are abuses and things that have taken place, 29:13 unfortunately, right? 29:15 And on this planet, even within our churches, that maybe you 29:18 have experienced or things that people have come to you and 29:20 told you about your parents or things you've heard your 29:23 parents say, and PK is live in a very interesting world, but I 29:27 want you to know that you are seen, that God loves you, that 29:30 your experience is accounted for, and I pray for your 29:33 healing, that it is possible to heal from that experience if 29:37 you are that person and know that it wasn't because you 29:40 didn't matter, right? 29:41 Or because no one cares about you. 29:43 God loves you and you are still on his mind, and I'm praying 29:46 that you are able to reconcile in your relationship with the 29:50 Lord, even if you are still attending and going, but you 29:53 still have that resentment in the back of your head. 29:55 God loves you and he loves your family. 29:58 We do have another question from Antigua. 30:04 It says, when someone says they're in a dark place, what 30:08 do they really mean? 30:12 That's an interesting question. 30:13 I couldn't tell you because every person is different, 30:16 right? 30:20 expressing this type of language. 30:21 When people say they're in a dark place, oftentimes what we 30:24 are trying to understand about that language is that you don't 30:27 want to ignore it, right? 30:29 That means coming alongside them, taking them to go get 30:33 some help, probing to figure out what may have happened or 30:36 what is happening that has led to this space. 30:39 What you don't want to do is you don't want to shut them 30:41 down or ignore them. 30:42 You don't want to say, oh, this is just regular conversation. 30:44 You want to make sure because mental health is very real and 30:47 it is and so when you hear someone speak those things or 30:51 say those things, take them seriously and try as much as 30:55 far as possible to encourage them to get help of some sort, 30:58 talk to someone. 31:03 what do you mean when you say that? 31:05 And if they don't have that vocabulary that you're talking 31:08 about, should we pull out that emotion wheel and try to get 31:13 them to walk through their feelings? 31:16 Well, let's do an exercise. 31:17 So you're there and we, hey, I'm in a dark place. 31:21 Yeah. 31:25 People need to feel comfortable with you. 31:27 So we can assume that just because they've come and 31:29 they've said it, right, that they trust you. 31:31 Sometimes people are just in a moment of spilling. 31:34 So I like to sit down with someone in a private space, 31:37 right? 31:40 I like to open it up and let them get to know me. 31:45 Right. 31:49 match them, but you know, I've been in that space before in my 31:53 life as well. 31:56 So I want you to know you're not alone. 31:57 Right. 31:58 What do you want? 32:01 is that you mean? 32:01 Do you need help explaining? 32:03 The emotion wheel may be a good thing. 32:05 Right. 32:08 into their heads. 32:09 Right. 32:11 You gave an example of implanting thoughts. 32:13 What we don't want to do. 32:15 Well, you don't want to tell someone how they're feeling. 32:16 Right. 32:19 And if you want clarity, you can ask, is it right that I 32:21 hear you saying? 32:22 Okay. 32:23 All right. 32:23 Is this right? 32:28 depressed? 32:30 Or are you feeling frustrated? 32:31 Can you clear that up for me? 32:33 And you're giving them space to give you clarity, not you 32:36 telling them. 32:39 again, in this world that we're living in, in this mental 32:41 health space that we're living in, a lot of times, you know, 32:44 people can come into spaces looking for help. 32:47 And sometimes the people looking for help can tap into 32:50 something within us that's not healed. 32:52 Do you understand what I'm saying? 32:54 And so that's why we have to be careful working on your own 32:57 healing so that you're not implanting your own pain and 33:00 your own into people's minds. 33:02 Right. 33:05 about what they're feeling. 33:06 And sometimes that won't happen in one sitting. 33:09 It's okay not to get all the answers right away. 33:11 Right. 33:13 You know what? 33:17 but let's come back and let's talk again. 33:19 Okay. 33:20 You know? 33:20 Yeah. 33:23 have you been feeling like you've been in this dark place? 33:26 And, um, depending on how to answer, I would go from there. 33:30 You know, did, did something happen, you know, was this, you 33:35 know, was this triggered by an event in your life and asking 33:39 them about those types of things just to get, get some 33:42 clarity. 33:43 And are you having thoughts of suicide? 33:45 Are you having thoughts of harming yourself? 33:47 That's very important to get clarity. 33:49 Right. 33:50 Um, so what do you mean in a dark place? 33:52 Have you, do you have a plan, right? 33:53 Is there a plan in place to harm yourself? 33:56 What is that plan? 33:57 So those, those are some of the things that you can do. 34:00 Yeah. 34:01 Oh, what is that plan? 34:03 Yes. 34:04 Okay. 34:04 That's interesting. 34:08 in grad school. 34:11 hearing that. 34:14 would say, what is it? 34:15 Yes. 34:18 If I may, because there are times when people, there are 34:22 times we all have thoughts, right? 34:25 About life and about depression and different things of that 34:28 nature. 34:33 that seriously. 34:34 That means that we're not leaving this place at this 34:37 moment without ensuring that we get you some help. 34:40 Okay. 34:42 Okay. 34:43 Yeah. 34:49 see what the Lord says about this. 34:53 So imagine a couple that is at home and they have a family, 34:57 just a couple of kids, let's say high school age, and there 35:01 has been infidelity in the house and they have decided to 35:06 try to preserve the marriage. 35:09 Please address the person who needs to forgive. 35:13 And it's really hard to do and the person who is seeking to be 35:19 forgiven and they're wanting to be, say, a spiritual leader in 35:23 the home. 35:25 every single time they do the one whom they wronged is 35:30 looking at the miscance. 35:31 And it's just, and they feel like it's just not working. 35:35 Talk to us. 35:37 This is actually a really great question because, or a 35:41 conversation, because I know that are many people who 35:44 experienced this. 35:46 One of the things that I would speak to this couple, and if 35:50 you're both listening, right on different perspectives, first 35:53 and foremost, what is forgiveness? 35:56 There's a lot of different definitions about what that is 35:59 and what that looks like, what has to be done. 36:02 First and foremost, when you have offended someone, right? 36:06 Forgiveness only requires one person. 36:09 Reconciliation, however, requires the agreement of two. 36:13 So what do we mean when we say that to people? 36:16 So it's possible for one person to forgive the other, to 36:21 forgive the other party, but reconciliation doesn't, doesn't 36:26 take place. 36:30 everything should be okay. 36:31 Well, that's, that's not necessarily the case. 36:35 One person may have legitimately and authentically 36:38 forgiven, but the other person may not either recognize what 36:43 the wrong is that they've done or the offense that's been 36:48 committed and reconciliation might not be a wise thing in 36:52 that context without this individual actually 36:55 acknowledging that, Hey, this was wrong. 36:58 Like I had no business treating you this way. 37:01 I had no business doing X, Y, and Z. 37:04 It's, it has caused friction and the erosion of our 37:07 relationship. 37:11 things. 37:13 And in between both of those is this very interesting word 37:15 called trust. 37:17 Right? 37:20 And so I can forgive you because forgiveness only harms, 37:24 unforgiveness only harms me. 37:26 Right? 37:28 Resentment and bitterness and anger, frustration and all 37:30 those things is poison to me. 37:32 Right? 37:36 being able to actually live whole. 37:38 However, when it comes to reconciling, there needs to be 37:42 some tangible evidences, right? 37:45 Of trust, being able to be rebuilt, fruits, fruits, right? 37:50 And so, um, first and foremost, this, this word keeps coming up 37:54 tonight, right? 37:55 Acknowledgement. 37:56 Okay. 37:56 Right. 37:57 Um, can you imagine infidelity happening in a person refusing 38:01 to acknowledge? 38:02 Yes. 38:03 Or maybe they're being dismissive. 38:04 Yeah. 38:08 talked about before. 38:09 It's one thing to say, I know I messed up. 38:12 I know I messed up, man. 38:13 Can we, can we, you know, can we get past this? 38:17 It's another thing to say when there's infidelity, I realize 38:24 that when I chose to step outside of, you know, the 38:29 confines of our, um, marital covenant, that it violated your 38:35 trust. 38:36 It broke your heart in ways that I can't even fully 38:39 imagine. 38:40 You know, I undermined all the work that we were putting. 38:44 What am I doing? 38:46 I'm not just giving a broad statement, but I'm actually 38:49 identifying, pinpointing ways in which my actions have 38:55 actually affected you and our family, right? 38:59 I, realize that my infidelity has caused a state of anxiety. 39:05 You don't know whether you'll be able to trust me. 39:09 You don't know if when I say, oh, this was the only time 39:12 whether I'm telling the truth or not, because I've been lying 39:15 to you all of these times. 39:16 So the acknowledgement of those things and not just, I know I 39:21 did wrong and I shouldn't have done it, but actually 39:24 identifying the ways in which this has affected the family 39:27 and the marriage in particular. 39:29 And that powerful word again, why? 39:33 Because there's a reason why the infidelity happened. 39:36 There's a reason why you made the decision to do such a 39:39 thing, right? 39:42 Why did you do it? 39:43 Why did you do it? 39:43 Are you self-aware? 39:44 Do you know what triggered you to make such a decision? 39:47 Does that self-awareness? 39:48 Yeah. 39:50 Yes. 39:50 Absolutely. 39:51 Absolutely. 39:52 Which is so, important. 39:54 Oftentimes the individual who has, you know, who has not 40:00 committed the act of unfaithfulness, but is dealing 40:03 with the person who has, they really want to know why. 40:07 Yeah. 40:08 Yeah. 40:09 Because of precisely what you said. 40:10 Right. 40:16 confident that it's not going to happen again? 40:19 You know, and so, but the reality is that the person who 40:24 was offended is not always aware. 40:27 There's a, what I, what we like to talk about is there's a lot 40:31 of heart searching that's necessary because we don't know 40:34 why we just, it's like, you ask your little child, hey, why did 40:38 you do that? 40:39 And they're like, uh, I don't know. 40:41 And they're telling the truth. 40:42 A lot of times they don't know, but we have to take a walk with 40:46 the Holy Spirit, the 139th Psalm, you know, search me, oh 40:50 God, and try my thoughts. 40:53 See if there's any wicked way within me. 40:55 And that heart search, I think I've said this here before, is 40:59 not for the benefit of God, but it's for the benefit of us. 41:04 Right. 41:07 we're quite frankly unaware of. 41:09 And as he reveals those things to us, oh, this, this is an 41:15 area I didn't even think about that. 41:18 And I would suggest an openness in that process as God is 41:22 sharing with me, if I've offended my wife and I've 41:25 stepped or broken our covenant, as God is revealing things to 41:29 me, then I'm sharing those things with her, you know, in a 41:33 way that perhaps I have not before. 41:35 Or a wife that has offended their husband, because that's 41:39 going to, that's going to help to rebuild trust is this level 41:45 of openness and honesty that for whatever reason may not 41:48 have been there before. 41:49 So that acknowledgement and communication will help rebuild 41:53 the trust. 41:54 And it takes time. 41:55 I want to say this too. 41:57 I can't, some, some have suggested that for me to say, 42:01 yes, I was unfaithful to you. 42:03 Do you forgive me? 42:05 No. 42:06 I'm just telling the truth. 42:09 Some have suggested that for me to ask her to forgive me is 42:17 manipulative. 42:20 Why? 42:22 Because I can't force you to forgive me. 42:24 Now I can use the idea that, well, you're a Christian and 42:29 aren't you supposed to? 42:30 I can do that. 42:31 But the reality is, you know, she has to process through 42:35 this. 42:36 God has to bring her to that point. 42:38 And am I the one who should really be coming to her and 42:42 saying, you need to forgive me? 42:44 No, you need it to remain faithful to me. 42:47 You know what I'm saying? 42:51 doesn't work out, because I asked for forgiveness and just 42:54 couldn't do it. 42:54 Let's break that down. 42:56 Even if it's being redundant, how does one avoid that? 43:00 What is the proper way to seek reconciliation and forgiveness? 43:04 Acknowledgement. 43:05 Acknowledgement. 43:09 -aware, right? 43:11 The what and the why of what led to this thing to happen. 43:14 And you too being able to have honest and open conversations 43:17 about that, giving one another space to be able to do that 43:21 personal work, right? 43:22 And this is one of the things we both believe. 43:25 I believe that if two people are willing to do the work, 43:29 they can survive things like that. 43:31 They can survive things like that. 43:33 But it takes work. 43:34 It takes work. 43:36 And I'm not saying that time is the elixir that's going to fix 43:40 everything. 43:41 Time has never healed a thing. 43:44 It's doing the work. 43:45 But it takes patience. 43:47 If I want to be forgiven and I want someone to invest trust in 43:54 me, I'm going to have to be patient because of the 43:59 violation that's taking place. 44:01 And it's almost dismissive if I'm like, okay, come on, it's 44:05 been whatever it's been. 44:07 Like, hurry up. 44:08 It's like, really? 44:10 I can't be dismissive of the pain that I've brought to this 44:14 individual. 44:16 And while yes, I can, I can desire hope and pray that, you 44:21 know, that trust is rebuilt and so forth and so on. 44:24 I think I also should have a level of in humility. 44:27 I should also be patient. 44:30 But likewise, because we would be remiss if we wouldn't say 44:32 this, that there are times when there are people who are doing 44:36 the work and they have repented and they have become self-aware 44:40 and they have done all that. 44:41 And it's me who is still holding onto the unforgiveness 44:44 and I'm carrying my sword throughout the house, chopping 44:47 up everybody. 44:47 Like I'm going to make you remember this. 44:50 And I told him, I was like, you know, you're going to remember. 44:54 However, you got to work on that too. 44:56 So for the person who has been offended, right? 44:59 To spend the rest of your life trying to punish someone who 45:02 has done the work, right? 45:04 Who has done the work and who is truly doing the work to 45:07 reconcile, you got to make a decision of what's important to 45:10 hold on to. 45:14 Okay. 45:17 Some of these heavy ones here. 45:20 What about in the case of spousal abuse? 45:24 How do we reconcile that if the abuse continues, at what point 45:30 should you is it ever? 45:32 I'm sorry. 45:33 I mean, is it ever biblical to leave? 45:37 Yes. 45:38 First of all, I would never tell someone to stay in a home 45:41 where you are being abused, right? 45:42 And the reason why I say that is because, you know, there's a 45:47 lot of people who spiritually manipulate in those particular 45:49 instances, right? 45:50 So I want to make it clear. 45:52 If you're being abused, get help, right? 45:55 I would never encourage anyone to sit and just continuously 45:59 allow themselves to be abused. 46:01 Is it possible for that relationship to heal and for 46:06 people to experience reconciliation? 46:07 The same thing we talked about with the couple who deal with 46:10 infidelity. 46:11 The same thing can happen. 46:12 However, we're talking about fruits, right? 46:14 There has to be fruit in order for that to happen. 46:17 There has to be acknowledgement. 46:19 There has to be why. 46:20 There has to be get help. 46:21 Oh, another one, accountability, right? 46:24 That's a very huge one, whether it's an infidelity or in abuse, 46:28 right? 46:29 Somebody needs to be able to hold you accountable, right? 46:33 Some things need to change. 46:35 Maybe you need a brother or a sister, right? 46:38 Who's aware, because a lot of silence happens in abuse, 46:41 right? 46:42 Well, abuse thrives in silence, right? 46:45 So I think that it is also finding people who you trust, 46:49 right? 46:51 is what you want to do, which is save your marriage. 46:53 You need to get some help, right? 46:55 And there needs to be avenues for which you can do that. 46:59 That's powerful stuff. 47:01 It's also very powerful how you said that being spiritual can 47:06 be used as a tool of abuse. 47:08 Absolutely. 47:12 throw one more in here. 47:14 One of the heavy ones here. 47:15 How about one of the kids is an older teenager and they're 47:24 coming out of the closet. 47:26 How does the parent work with that? 47:29 How does a Christian parent deal with that? 47:34 You know, one of the things, man, and this is juicy one to 47:37 throw in at the end, and it, but I, but I appreciate the 47:41 conversation because I think we're so in our, in our day and 47:44 age, we're so, it's almost like we're a deer caught in 47:48 headlights, right? 47:49 In our churches and our families, we're just terrified 47:51 of this LGBTQIA plus thing, right? 47:54 What we found with a lot of people is that a lot of the 47:57 things that we've been talking about are the roots of that, 48:00 right? 48:03 that in their life is because they really are that. 48:06 I think that because we have been unable to talk about some 48:09 of the things that we just talked about, whether it's the 48:11 things that children and people have seen in the home, and this 48:14 is not to blame, right? 48:15 That your home must be horrible and this is why your kid is 48:18 coming out this way, but we become so overwhelmed with fear 48:21 because of this thing that it stops us from being able to do 48:23 the very same thing that we would do with anyone else who's 48:27 dealing with sin, right? 48:29 Boundaries are important, but love is important too. 48:31 And you can love people without, without agreeing with 48:34 their sin. 48:35 You can love people and still have boundaries. 48:37 You can love them and walk with them on a journey with their 48:40 addiction and getting them help and all of these different 48:42 things. 48:46 to encourage people to not be shaken. 48:50 And it's easier said than done, right? 48:52 I am a firm believer that God can reintroduce himself to his 48:56 people if they are given the proper platform to be able to 48:59 heal. 49:01 And I think in churches, what we've done is oftentimes we 49:03 have elevated this thing so high that we've terrified 49:06 ourselves of it. 49:08 Well, if we do that, then how are we going to be able to be a 49:12 witness, right? 49:14 We've experienced that in our churches. 49:16 We've had parents who are dealing with children who have 49:18 come out and guess what? 49:19 Bring that kid to church. 49:21 You know, let that kid sit and listen to the gospel. 49:23 Because guess what? 49:27 pews. 49:31 pews. 49:34 So the same amount of work that needs to be done in love needs 49:38 to be offered there as well with boundaries. 49:40 Yeah, I would add to that. 49:41 We have to be mindful that, you know, one of the one of the 49:47 selling points of the LGBT plus community is they appear to be 49:54 extremely welcoming and accepting. 49:57 And so and we mentioned this earlier, a lot of us will 50:03 parent through that situation out of our own shame. 50:06 Yes. 50:13 more to do with me and my fear of how people are going to look 50:17 at me than it does about me actually parenting my child as 50:21 they are going through this portion of their journey. 50:24 So is that where the acknowledgement comes in? 50:27 Yes. 50:27 Yes. 50:32 and, you know, just deal with that. 50:36 But it's easier for it's easier for me to just cut them off and 50:42 say you're out of here. 50:44 That's sin. 50:44 I'm not I'm done. 50:46 Don't come around. 50:47 I'm disowning you. 50:49 Don't ever come back here. 50:51 It's easier to do that than to deal with the shame that exists 50:56 from, you know, did I do something to cause this? 51:01 Was I not a good parent? 51:02 You know, what does this have to these are all questions that 51:04 that we tend to do. 51:06 We become self. 51:07 Yeah. 51:10 And in reality, even though, you know, I may not agree with 51:16 this decision and I may feel like and like definitely this 51:20 is this is not the path that God wants you to walk in. 51:24 How can I how can I how can I still let you know that I love 51:30 you, even though I don't agree with the choices that you're 51:34 making? 51:35 And how can we talk about boundaries? 51:39 Yeah. 51:42 And what are those boundaries going to be? 51:45 And so, you know, that that's an important thing. 51:49 But I think not responding from a space of shame, but actually 51:53 responding with the heart of Jesus towards my child, knowing 51:57 that they are still my child. 51:59 I can say, get out of here. 52:01 I'm disowning you. 52:02 But when God comes, he's going to ask you, Oh, come on now. 52:07 Where is that little one child that I gave you? 52:10 And what I disown them because they were sending this, that 52:13 and the other. 52:14 And it's like, yes. 52:16 But remember, I said that the good shepherd will leave the 99 52:20 and go after the one. 52:22 So how have you, you see what I'm saying? 52:25 How have you done that? 52:27 So there's a lot of work. 52:28 Don't have all the answers for how or what that means in each 52:32 and every person's experience or their situation. 52:35 But I would just warn that it's important for us not to respond 52:40 out of our own shame and fear, but to respond based on our 52:45 love for our child and our desire to see them walking in 52:49 the path that God has for them. 52:51 I love, I love next steps. 52:53 So let's, let's just do a little case study of them. 52:57 And Anissa and I were at one of our meetings recently and a 52:59 parent came up and they said, I want prayer for my son. 53:03 And they said, this is what they were dealing with. 53:05 And they admitted right there. 53:07 A lot of this is I'm ashamed of what the church will say. 53:12 What do you say to that parent? 53:14 One of the things I think is so important with anyone who was 53:16 dealing with not just our children coming out of the 53:19 proverbial closet or addiction or any of these things, find 53:23 support. 53:24 And sometimes this is a hard truth. 53:28 Sometimes the environments that we're in are not equipped, but 53:31 God is faithful. 53:32 There are who are right. 53:34 There are other parents. 53:36 There are other Christian parents, just like you, who are 53:38 experiencing the same thing that are there to support you 53:41 that can talk to you about how they're handling their 53:43 circumstances or their situations. 53:45 You do not have to go through this by yourself. 53:47 You're not alone. 53:48 Find those support groups. 53:50 They are out there. 53:51 Find support. 53:52 Yes, definitely. 53:53 I will say find support. 53:56 And one of the things that helps to defeat shame is 54:01 actually facing it head on. 54:04 The very thing oftentimes that we need in order to defeat 54:09 shame is to say, Hey folks, I need your prayers. 54:14 This is where I am and this is what I'm dealing with. 54:17 And I think the enemy works with a supernatural and 54:21 inordinate amount of shame, especially when there are other 54:24 people close by who need also to hear that they're not alone. 54:29 That man, Oh man, their child too. 54:31 Wow. 54:32 It's not just me. 54:35 So we can become shame busters when we say, Hey, I need your 54:40 prayers. 54:41 Cause in isolation healing can't happen. 54:43 And what I mean by that is this, that God has a testimony 54:46 for us. 54:50 and tell everybody, but I'm so concerned about what people 54:53 know that I don't even talk about it. 54:55 I don't even let people know that I need help raising my 54:57 hand saying, I need help that healing can't happen. 55:00 Right? 55:03 through something. 55:04 What do you think about the idea that the, the church which 55:07 we need can also be used as a tool for creating these 55:12 feelings, which we don't need. 55:14 Oh, we just, Oh man, the time is running out. 55:16 Just quickly address that. 55:18 How do we deal with that balance? 55:19 Yeah. 55:20 Yeah. 55:22 We need individual and collective healing in the 55:25 context of the church. 55:28 I knew a young lady who took a group of non Adventist 55:31 atheistic students to an AA meeting of all places. 55:35 These atheistic young people broke down. 55:38 There was medical school in Brazil. 55:40 They broke down medical students and they said, we have 55:44 never in our lives experienced such transparency and 55:48 vulnerability. 55:49 We are touched to the very core. 55:51 And as I had a conversation with the young person, I 55:54 thought to myself, that's what our churches need to be. 55:57 They need to be the spaces that people come into and say, I 56:01 have never experienced such transparency and authenticity 56:05 and openness in any place that I've ever been. 56:10 And so this I believe is what God intends for the church to 56:16 be. 56:17 We are not there yet, but it takes personal work. 56:20 It takes collective work. 56:22 One of my wife's favorite passages. 56:23 They overcame him. 56:27 of their testimony, which means we have to, we have to say 56:31 where we have been and what we've been through. 56:34 Yeah. 56:35 Friends, this has been a blessing. 56:37 We told you it would be a blessing. 56:38 And now we're here about to close, but before we do it, 56:41 what are some things that have come up? 56:43 Acknowledgement has come up. 56:45 Introspection has come up. 56:46 Self-awareness. 56:52 This has been a blessing. 56:54 Thank you so much for sharing with us and letting the Lord 56:57 use you. 56:58 Friends, thank you for being with us. 57:00 And as always, be encouraged. 57:03 Be encouraged. |
Revised 2025-06-27