Thunder in the Holy Land

The Emmanuel Factor

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Charles Byrd (Host), Andrea Endries, Stephen Fowler, Levi Longoria


Series Code: THL

Program Code: THL000005

00:01 Hello, I'm a Christian.
00:03 And I'm not. Really?
00:06 Well, then, let me introduce you to my best friend Jesus.
00:09 Oh, I'm not really interested in Christianity.
00:13 Why is that?
00:15 Well, for one thing I don't have enough time.
00:18 Time? Yeah, time.
00:21 Did you know there are 38,000 different denominations
00:24 all claiming to be Christian.
00:25 I don't have enough time to study all of them
00:27 to find out which church is telling the truth.
00:30 Of course we don't,
00:32 that's why I wanted to introduce you to Jesus.
00:34 He is the truth.
00:41 Thunder in the Holy Land is a simple Bible study series
00:44 that focuses on the life and teachings of Jesus.
00:47 To learn more about this study
00:49 and how you can use it to share our best friend,
00:52 visit us at that's
00:59 Over 2,000 years ago a boy child was born here in Bethlehem.
01:03 To parents of the peasant working class.
01:06 And tradition tells us He was born in a grotto stable
01:09 surrounded by the scent of animals.
01:12 The Bible tells us that His first bed was a feeding troth.
01:16 Surely after he was whizzed away to Egypt
01:19 to avoid the wrath of Herod
01:20 and spent His earliest years
01:22 growing up in the land of the pyramids,
01:23 the way thousands of Jews did before the Exodus.
01:26 After returning from Egypt,
01:27 His parents were settled here in Nazareth,
01:30 where He grew up learned His father's trade
01:33 and remained in obscurity until He was 30 years old.
01:37 This boy grow up to carry the title of Messiah.
01:41 A Hebrew term for anointed.
01:43 Probably more people are familiar
01:45 with the Greek version of the same title, Christ.
01:49 Well, from space the world may seem united,
01:52 down here we've divided ourselves
01:54 into different belief systems,
01:56 but the majority claim to be followers of this Jesus.
02:01 Today it is estimated that 33% of the world
02:04 has taken His Greek title
02:05 and embraced it as their moniker, Christian.
02:09 This includes Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox,
02:13 Pentecostal, Anglican, Latter Day Saints,
02:15 Baptist, Evangelicals, Jehovah's Witness, Quakers,
02:18 Seventh-day Adventist and many, many others.
02:22 This 33% also includes
02:24 people who nominally take the name just to fit in
02:28 or to differentiate themselves from Muslims,
02:31 Pagans or something else.
02:33 Christianity in all its forms dominates the land mass
02:37 of the western hemisphere Europe,
02:39 Southern Africa and Australia.
02:42 Regardless of the degree of accuracy of the 33% figure
02:46 Christianity if taken as a whole is inarguably
02:49 the world's largest religion.
02:52 But religion overtime becomes culture
02:55 and culture overtime becomes tradition.
02:58 Now we're some 80 generations remove from Jesus
03:01 and this iconic figure has to many
03:04 become almost a myth.
03:07 Of the billions on this planet who claim to be Christian,
03:10 most associate themselves more closely
03:13 with the name of their particular denomination.
03:15 We draw lines between ourselves and keep on making distinctions
03:20 till we come to realize
03:21 that there are now over 38,000 different denominations,
03:26 that all claim the name of Christ.
03:29 But here's the straddling fact, they don't teach the same thing.
03:34 One says, Jesus was fully God, but only God.
03:37 Another says, He was not God, but was fully man.
03:41 Still other say, He was fully God and fully man.
03:45 One says, Saturday is the Sabbath while another says,
03:48 Sunday is the correct day to worship.
03:51 And some say, we go to heaven or hell when we die.
03:53 Others say, we rest in the grave till the resurrection.
03:57 Some say, if you accept Jesus once,
03:59 you cannot be lost, no matter what you do.
04:03 Other say, you can choose to be lost
04:05 after once choosing to be saved.
04:07 And on it goes, we argue, build walls between us,
04:11 throw names at each other like heretic or cult.
04:15 But if we've taken the name of Christ
04:17 shouldn't we be followers of Christ.
04:20 And if we are all followers of Christ,
04:22 wouldn't we believe what He taught,
04:24 wouldn't we do the things He did.
04:27 Today using just the Bible as our authority,
04:31 let's continue our journey toward Christ.
04:34 I'd like to look critically at this God man.
04:36 I'd like to know what He said,
04:39 what He taught, what He believed.
04:42 During our time together, let's not argue at all.
04:45 Let's just go to the Bible
04:47 and let the Bible interpret itself.
04:49 Let's consider the teachings of Jesus
04:51 that cause so much thunder in the holy land.
04:54 Then if we choose to believe His teachings,
04:57 let's call ourselves Christians
04:58 and accept His invitation to be part of the body of Christ.
05:02 If we choose not to believe what Jesus taught,
05:05 then let's be honest, enough to face our doubts and walk away.
06:01 Today I'd like to take you back in time to Jerusalem.
06:05 The year is perhaps 27 or 28 A.D.
06:08 and we arrive in Jerusalem
06:09 during one of the annual feast of the Jews.
06:13 Crowds of people are everywhere.
06:16 There is much activity in the streets
06:18 as vendor sell their wares.
06:26 While we can't be sure evidence suggest
06:29 that the feast in John 5 was the Passover,
06:32 as such the population of Jerusalem would have swelled
06:36 perhaps doubled with many pilgrims.
06:40 But when the Sabbath came
06:41 the atmosphere would have changed,
06:44 the hawker street vendors
06:45 would have finally fallen silent.
06:48 Much like today, people would have mingled and visited
06:51 as they strolled to the streets on Sabbath afternoon.
06:56 After some prayers at the temple
06:57 no doubt somewhat have strolled over to the Pool of Bethesda
07:00 with its five lovely carinated porches.
07:03 But on this particular Sabbath there were more than families
07:06 on a Sabbath afternoon walk around the pool.
07:09 The squatters had moved on to the porches
07:10 because many had come to believe according to verse 4
07:14 that an angel would come from time to time
07:16 and stir up the water
07:18 and whoever gone to the pool first was healed.
07:20 For years skeptics doubted John's account of this stories
07:23 and so there's no evidence for carinated pool.
07:26 But archeologists believe they've uncovered this very pool
07:29 here in the Muslim Quarter near the Sheep Gate
07:32 affirming the historical accuracy of John's account.
07:38 On this particular Sabbath,
07:40 Jesus was also walking on the porch.
07:42 "And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity 38 years.
07:46 When Jesus saw him lie,
07:48 and knew that he had been now a long time in that case,
07:50 he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
07:54 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man,
07:57 when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool,
07:59 but while I am coming,
08:00 another one steppeth down before me.
08:03 Then Jesus said, Rise, take up thy bed and walk."
08:09 Now here's where the plot of this story
08:11 is gonna lead us into the teachings of Jesus.
08:13 Teachings that thunder through Jerusalem,
08:15 thunder through Israel,
08:17 shocking the people and polarizing them.
08:20 And that rumble is still heard today
08:21 as people contemplate divine things.
08:25 Indeed on this particular Sabbath,
08:28 Jesus made two mistakes
08:29 according to the Jewish leaders.
08:31 First, Jesus had healed on the Sabbath day,
08:33 but perhaps even worse he told the former paralytic
08:36 to pick up his bed and carry it on the Sabbath.
08:39 The Jewish leaders were angry because
08:40 Jesus had according to their understanding
08:42 broken one of the Ten Commandments.
08:44 The fourth in fact which said,
08:46 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
08:48 In it thou shalt not do any work."
08:50 But then Jesus made them really angry.
08:52 Look at verses just 17 and 18.
08:54 "But Jesus answered them,
08:56 My Father worketh hitherto, and i work.
08:59 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him,
09:02 because he not only had broken the Sabbath,
09:03 but said also that God was his Father,
09:06 making himself equal with God."
09:08 What is the thunder teaching we're looking at right now.
09:11 Jesus called God His Father and in verse 25
09:14 Jesus clearly calls Himself the Son of God.
09:17 Another time Jesus took the stunning title
09:20 was after He healed a blind man.
09:21 Since the man had been blind,
09:23 he had no idea who healed him,
09:24 but when Jesus found him in the temple he questioned him.
09:28 "Do you believe in the Son of God?
09:30 He answered and said,
09:31 Who is he, Lord, that I may believe in him?
09:34 And Jesus said to him, you have both seen him,
09:37 and it is he who is talking with you."
09:39 Jesus clearly says that He is a Son of God.
09:42 That is why the night time visit from Nicodemus,
09:44 a Jewish leader brought in and so.
09:47 "Rabbi, he said, we know that you are a teacher come from God,
09:50 no man can do these miracles that you are doing,
09:53 except God be with him."
09:56 If Jesus was a true teacher send from God,
09:58 then He must be what He claim to be.
10:01 If Jesus is not the Son of God,
10:03 then Jesus is not a true teacher.
10:05 Muslim tradition says that, Jesus was a good man
10:08 that He was born of a virgin, that He was a prophet,
10:11 but He was not the Son of God, He did not die on Calvary.
10:16 There is a logical impasse here, you can't have it both ways.
10:20 He is either a teacher sent from God,
10:22 a true prophet of the Most High
10:23 and the Son of God or He is a liar and a fraud.
10:27 If Jesus is a prophet of the true God,
10:29 then He must tell the truth.
10:31 Jesus claimed to be the Son of God.
10:34 Yes He did.
10:36 Five times in the Book of John,
10:37 Jesus refers to Himself as the Son of God
10:41 and others embrace that radical claim.
10:43 First there is this angel in Luke 1:35
10:47 who announces the birth of Christ.
10:49 The angel said, "He wants to be called the Son of God."
10:53 John the Baptist who announced the Jesus to be the Lamb of God
10:57 also said "This is the Son of God."
11:01 Those who lived with Jesus, ate with Him,
11:03 slept with Him, in short those who knew Him best
11:07 worshiped Jesus as the Son of God.
11:10 And the Roman centurion who presided at the crucifixion
11:13 closely observed Jesus through the shame of the trial,
11:17 through the scourging at the praetorium
11:19 and through the spectacle on Golgotha.
11:22 This centurion would not be considered
11:24 a friendly witness to the truth,
11:26 but even he declared truly this man was the Son of God.
11:31 Even the evil angels who fell from grace
11:34 knew who Jesus was.
11:36 Thou are Christ, the Son of God they cried.
11:39 Now truth be told anyone can make claims.
11:43 At any given moment there are a number
11:45 of people walking around on the planet
11:47 who are claiming to be of divine origin,
11:50 but each of us has been given the ability to think.
11:53 It is our responsibility to look for the proof
11:56 to weight the evidence. So here is proof number one.
12:01 We've actually already looked that in John 5:17,
12:04 but let's look at it again.
12:06 "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."
12:09 The key word here is work. Now look at verse 36.
12:14 As wonderful as it was for John to say,
12:16 Jesus was the Son of God.
12:18 Jesus said, "I have greater witness
12:21 than that of John, for the works
12:23 which the Father hath given me to finish,
12:26 the same works that I do, bear witness of me,
12:29 that the Father hath sent me."
12:31 Jesus claims to be sent to earth by the Father
12:34 and He directed us to look at His works
12:37 for proof of His words.
12:39 Calling a three legged horse a four legged horse
12:42 doesn't make it so and no three legged horse
12:44 has ever won a Kentucky Derby.
12:47 So the question.
12:49 Why should I believe that Jesus is the Son of God?
12:51 Answer.
12:53 Because of His miraculous work.
12:55 And what are some of His works?
12:57 Well, let's see.
13:00 He walked on water, that wasn't frozen.
13:03 He fed 5,000 people plus with one boy's lunch.
13:07 He cured people of incurable diseases and ailments.
13:10 He read people's thoughts.
13:12 He predicted the impossible and He raised the dead to life.
13:18 Can the average man do such works?
13:21 No.
13:22 These works sparkled with the homework of divinity.
13:37 Yes indeed, anyone can make claims,
13:40 but the works of Jesus are and are they worldly proof.
13:44 A divine confirmation that Jesus was indeed
13:47 who He claimed to be.
13:49 But there are still another proof
13:51 that Jesus was the Son of God.
13:54 Jesus highlighted that proof when He said,
13:57 "Search the scriptures, for in scriptures
13:59 you think ye have eternal life, but the scriptures are they
14:03 which testify talk of, or prophesy of me."
14:08 When Jesus referred to scriptures was
14:10 He referring to Matthew, Mark, Luke or John,
14:13 or was He talking about the writing of the Apostle Paul.
14:17 Jesus wasn't referring to the New Testament at all
14:19 since there was no New Testament yet.
14:22 Jesus made it clear that He believed in
14:25 and promoted the Old Testament.
14:27 Over and over and over again Jesus pointed those seeking
14:32 for truth to the Old Testament
14:34 as the words of inspiration
14:36 that would guide and sustain them.
14:39 Some folks who claim to be Christians today say,
14:41 they don't believe in the Old Testament anymore.
14:44 They suggest that somehow these Old Testament writings
14:47 have no relevance for the New Testament believer.
14:51 Well, that certainly doesn't square
14:54 with the teachings of Jesus.
14:56 One of the doctrines commands of Jesus
14:59 is to search the scriptures.
15:01 Three times in this one passage John says,
15:04 Jesus pointed people to the Old Testament,
15:07 as a worthy guide and source of truth.
15:10 Many, many years after Jesus had died was resurrected
15:14 and had gone back to heaven.
15:16 The apostles of Christ church were still teaching
15:19 the same doctrine that Jesus taught.
15:21 Look at what Paul wrote in Timothy.
15:24 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
15:27 and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,
15:30 for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
15:34 Paul is telling Timothy, New Testament,
15:37 New dispensation believer that
15:39 the Old Testament is profitable, it is the source for doctrines,
15:43 it is the guide for correction of poor thinking and living.
15:48 It is--where we find instruction about what true righteousness is
15:53 and what did Paul say, is the reason
15:55 we should read the Old Testament.
15:58 "That the man of God may be perfect,
16:01 thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
16:04 This notion that the Old Testament
16:06 is not relevant or valid for our lives today
16:09 does not agree with the doctrines of Christ.
16:12 Neither does this teaching agree with the writings
16:15 of the apostle Peter, Norah of James.
16:18 And you certainly couldn't get that belief
16:21 from the teachings of Paul.
16:23 The Old Testament is critical
16:24 as it leads us to our second proof
16:27 that Jesus was the Son of God.
16:30 You see, delusional authors could have fabricated
16:33 this whole thing about a God man with amazing powers,
16:38 but this second proof is even better than the miracles
16:41 or the works that Jesus performed
16:44 and what could be better than miracles? Prophecy.
16:49 Indeed and prophecy is better than anything else,
16:52 because it avoids emotional bias.
16:54 Prophecy is evidential and verifiable and fulfilled
16:57 prophecy appeals to logic in electing reason.
17:01 On resurrection Sunday the emotions of Jesus disciples
17:04 fell like a tennis ball at Wimbledon.
17:06 And first they were in a complete state
17:08 of horror and dejection
17:09 from the crucifixion of their master.
17:11 Then they were seeing shocking news from the woman
17:14 that Jesus was no longer in the tomb,
17:16 they had risen from the dead.
17:18 On the road to Emmaus in somewhere
17:19 between faith and doubt, but much closer to doubt,
17:23 two of Jesus disciples where plodding toward home.
17:26 As they walked along, they sadly brooded
17:28 over the events of this dreadful Passover.
17:31 When the stranger found step with them,
17:33 the stranger asked one of them
17:35 the reason for the downcast spirit.
17:37 With sadness Cleopas told him on the news
17:39 from Jerusalem ending with.
17:41 "But we trusted that it had been him
17:44 which should have redeemed Israel.
17:47 Then Jesus said unto them.
17:49 O fools, and slow of heart to believe
17:51 all that the prophets have spoken.
17:53 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things,
17:55 and to enter into his glory?
17:57 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets,
18:00 he expounded unto them in all the scriptures
18:03 the things concerning himself."
18:06 Now notice two things here from the teachings of Jesus.
18:09 First Jesus says, people are fools
18:10 when they are slow in heart to believe
18:12 what the scriptures teach about prophecy.
18:15 The second thing that we shouldn't miss
18:17 is that Jesus gave them a Bible study
18:19 directly from the Old Testament.
18:21 "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets,
18:24 he expounded unto them in all the scriptures
18:27 the things concerning himself."
18:29 Oh, how I would have love to been there
18:31 for that Bible study.
18:33 Unfortunately Dave wasn't there to get a good recording for us.
18:38 The good news for us is that we still have the Bible,
18:40 the same Bible with the same prophecies,
18:43 so starting with Moses and with the help of the other apostles,
18:46 we can reconstruct that very Bible study.
18:50 Indeed we can, Moses was the author of Genesis,
18:53 the first book of the Bible.
18:54 In His earliest chapter 3, we find
18:57 our first messianic prophecy, our first look at the Messiah
19:00 who would come back and redeem us all.
19:02 Adam and Eve heard God tell that serpent in the garden.
19:05 "I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
19:08 and between thy seed and her seed,
19:10 it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."
19:14 The key word in this passage is seed.
19:16 That same word seed is used by God
19:18 again some 2,000 years later and this prophecy
19:21 given to Father Abraham in Genesis 12:7.
19:24 "And the Lord appeared unto Abram and said,
19:27 Unto thy seed will I give this land,
19:29 and there builded he an altar unto the Lord,
19:32 who appeared unto him."
19:35 Who was this seed that will strike
19:37 at the head of Satan himself?
19:39 Who was the seed that would inherit
19:41 all of the land of Palestine and beyond?
19:43 Scripture must interpret scripture
19:45 and Paul's epistle to the Galatians,
19:47 he unequivocally nails down who this seed is.
19:51 "Now to Abraham and his seed were promises made.
19:54 He saith not, and to seeds, as of many, but as of one,
19:58 and to thy seed, which is Christ."
20:02 The seed is the one foretold by God Himself.
20:05 The seed was prophesied as the one
20:07 who would deliver us from sin.
20:09 The seed was name in God's last will and testament
20:12 as the inheritor of Israel.
20:14 That seed is none other than Jesus Christ.
20:18 As Moses was saying goodbye to the children of Israel
20:21 before the incident that came in he shared one more prophecy,
20:24 left us one more important detail concerning the Messiah.
20:28 "The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet
20:31 from the midst of thee, of thy brethren,
20:33 like unto me, unto him ye shall hearken."
20:38 This messianic prophecy states clearly
20:40 that the messiah will be a prophet
20:43 and that he will arise from the children of Israel.
20:46 And there are more prophesies like it was verifiable evidence
20:49 that Jesus was the messiah, the anointed one,
20:53 the Emmanuel who was to come.
20:55 But first I want to give you a principle of prediction.
20:58 The more details you insert into a prediction,
21:02 the less likely it is to be fulfilled.
21:04 If you look through your Old Testament
21:06 at all the messianic passages bringing them all together
21:09 in one place there is an amazing amount detail.
21:14 For example if I told you
21:15 there will be a change in the weather tomorrow,
21:18 any change would make my prophecy come true,
21:20 but if I told you
21:22 it'll be 78.5 degrees at 6 in the morning,
21:25 I will have added two layers of details
21:27 that make fulfillment less likely.
21:30 If I said we'll have two and a half inches
21:32 of rain by 5 P.M. in this very spot
21:35 there is a smaller likelihood I'd be right.
21:38 So here are three more prophecies.
21:41 The first comes from Micah 5:2,
21:44 which predicts that the one
21:45 who is going to inherit Israel would be born in Bethlehem.
21:49 Luke 2:4, 5 and 7 tells us that Mary was with Joseph
21:53 in Bethlehem when it was time to have her child.
21:57 In Daniel 9:25 the prophet predicted the very year
22:00 the Messiah, the anointed one would come.
22:04 Then in Luke 3:21-23
22:07 we learn that Jesus was anointed right on time in A.D. 27.
22:12 And finally from Isaiah 7:14 we read this prediction.
22:16 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you assign,
22:19 behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,
22:22 and shall call his name Immanuel."
22:25 According to Matthew 1:23 Mary was indeed a virgin
22:29 and she brought forth a child, this child in Bethlehem,
22:32 the angel assured Joseph that Mary story was true.
22:37 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child,
22:39 and shall bring forth a son,
22:41 and they shall call his name Emmanuel,
22:43 which being interpreted is, God with us."
22:47 Remember the more details you insert into a prediction
22:49 the less likely it is to be fulfilled.
22:52 The details in this list are amazingly specific.
22:56 He was to be a prophet, He was to be born of a virgin,
23:00 He was to be born in Bethlehem,
23:03 He was to be anointed in A.D. 27,
23:06 and perhaps most importantly the one who was to come
23:10 would not merely be a man.
23:13 He would be Emmanuel,
23:15 which being interpreted is God with us.
23:19 That's why they wanted to stone Jesus,
23:21 for He was using the same name that God used
23:24 with Moses at the burning bush in Exodus 3:14.
23:28 "And God said unto Moses, I am that I am.
23:32 And he said, thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
23:35 I am hath sent me unto you."
23:39 There are so many details in these predictions.
23:43 If this was a trial the jury could convict Jesus
23:46 of being who He claimed to be.
23:49 But that did not stop Satan from trying to create doubts
23:52 in the mind of Christ.
23:54 Satan called his sonship into question.
23:58 "And the devil said unto him, if thou be the Son of God,
24:02 command this stone that it be made bread."
24:06 Jesus answered the devil with these words.
24:08 "It is written that man shall not live by bread alone,
24:12 but by every word of God."
24:15 Our only safety, our very life comes
24:18 from every word that comes from God.
24:22 And on this point God had already spoken.
24:26 Matthew 3:17 says, "And lo a voice
24:29 was heard from heaven saying.
24:30 This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
24:36 To make the stones into bread
24:38 would have been using miraculous powers
24:40 to prove something that had already been stated
24:42 by God the Father at the baptism of Jesus.
24:46 when Jesus came to this earth He came not only as Emmanuel,
24:51 God with us, but He was also fully man.
24:55 As a man He had to live by faith just as you and I
24:59 must live by faith in all the words of God,
25:02 both Old and New Testament.
25:05 So I'm confident of these two proofs,
25:08 the miracles of Jesus and the fact
25:10 that God could tell us thousands of years in advance
25:15 what would happen in the future.
25:17 Both miracles and prophecies revealed in the Bible
25:21 give me confidence and assurance
25:24 that Jesus was who He acclaimed to be, the Son of God
25:28 and yes Emmanuel, God with us.
25:33 The Jews weren't ready to listen to these truths
25:35 as taught by Jesus in fact they took up stone
25:39 to cast at him, but Jesus hid himself,
25:42 and went out of the temple,
25:44 going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
25:49 This assertion that He was God was rejected over and over again
25:53 by those who had the prophecies and even their rejection
25:57 was prophesied in Isaiah 53:3.
26:00 Today we too have a choice, will we reject Him
26:04 or accept Jesus as our Lord and our God.
27:09 Hi, my name is Andrea and I count myself so fortunate
27:13 having part of Thunder In The Holy Land.
27:15 Of course traveling all over the Middle East
27:17 was a wonderful adventure and I'll treasure
27:19 that experience for a lifetime.
27:29 But even more important than walking
27:31 where Jesus walked was digging deeper
27:34 into what Jesus taught, the teachings,
27:37 the doctrines of Jesus are truly transformational.
27:41 If you know Jesus as a personal savior and friend,
27:44 but are not quite sure how to go about sharing
27:46 your faith with others, then I'd like to recommend
27:49 Thunder In The Holy Land.
27:51 This one hour Bible study starts by watching a 30 minutes video
27:54 then you follow up with 30 minutes of guided discussion,
27:57 where everyone gets to share from the heart.
28:01 Thunder is fun to watch and a blessing to share.
28:04 Check us out at
28:13 Behold the fowls of the air for they sow not,
28:17 neither do they reap, nor gather into barns;
28:21 yet your heavenly Father feedeth them.
28:25 Are ye not much better than they?


Revised 2014-12-17