Participants: Cordell Thomas
Series Code: TITTB
Program Code: TITTB000034
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00:01 On Take It To The Bank,
00:02 you'll find ways to get out of debt. 00:09 Solve your credit card problems. 00:14 How to make and stick with the budget? 00:19 Simple ways to save. 00:24 Buying or selling a home 00:26 and many more financial matters on Take It to The Bank. 00:32 Hi, my name is Cordell Thomas, 00:33 and welcome to Take It to The Bank. 00:36 I'm excited that you're here and a lot of your questions 00:38 have been coming through via email, via phone calls. 00:41 And some of the things I think are very important 00:43 as that you're talking about. 00:44 We had a couple of questions that I thought 00:46 we should address and I think we'll do that today. 00:49 Today we're gonna talk a little about consumer awareness, 00:52 buyer beware and this has to do more 00:56 so with some of those things that are out there 00:59 that we've always had questions about. 01:01 Many of the things that we talk about 01:04 and that we hear about have to do with gifting 01:07 and or multilevel marketing 01:10 and has to do more so 01:11 with how we develop a small business. 01:14 And there are, those that are out there 01:16 that are predatory in nature 01:18 that would like to get us involve in something 01:20 that's not necessarily a legitimate business. 01:24 And the question comes across, 01:26 what is legitimate? 01:27 Well, let me start with the small, 01:29 a short, short story. 01:30 I was online and a good friend of mine, 01:33 I hope that they don't really know 01:34 who that person is, 01:36 sent an email to me saying, 01:38 "Hook up with him 01:39 on this specific type of gifting project 01:44 that they had." 01:45 Now there are a variety of different schemes 01:49 that are out there and you have the first question 01:51 that you should pretty much ask is, 01:53 what is this thing called and its surrounding its all, 01:57 surrounding this thing gifting or giving type of program? 02:02 So as I asked the question I said, if it's gifting then 02:05 why are you expecting 02:06 some type of return on investment? 02:08 And that was my simple question to the individual. 02:10 Now the feedback or the answers that I got at the time 02:14 when I asked the question was simply this. 02:16 Why are you worried about return on investment 02:18 that's, that's not it. 02:19 You're missing my point 02:21 because if you can give you'll get money back 02:23 and then I said, that's still my question. 02:25 My question is, 02:27 if you're gifting something to someone, 02:31 why do you expect a return on investment 02:33 and that's simple question, 02:35 the critical question that you should pretty much ask, 02:38 because it's legitimate. 02:39 I'm getting money back. 02:41 I'm getting to tune of almost $2,000 a month back right now 02:44 and it will constantly grow. 02:45 Okay, so the first thing I did 02:48 was I took a step back 02:49 and I said, let me take a look at it 02:51 but still you haven't answered my question 02:53 because if it's truly gifting, 02:56 then you shouldn't be expecting anything in return. 02:59 And that's what we as individuals 03:01 should be thinking about 03:02 when we look at being good stewards 03:06 and when we give something to Christ, 03:09 it's not we expect anything in return. 03:11 It's a fact that He blesses us 03:13 but we give to Him willingly and knowing that, 03:16 that money is actually His. 03:19 So I went and did some research on this thing. 03:21 And there was some interesting information 03:23 that popped up. 03:25 It showed that this thing goes in cycles 03:28 and the gifting thing has targeted 03:30 many different demographics. 03:32 So there's issues about 03:34 gifting for a different type of group here 03:37 and gifting over here and giving over here, 03:40 many different groups have been targeted 03:42 and all of them have gotten involved 03:44 in their specific type of programs 03:48 that benefit the people at the top. 03:50 Now the first, first issue 03:52 that I asked people to look at 03:54 is when you take a look at any of these projects, 03:56 do the research. 03:58 There are several things I'm going to talk about, 03:59 the first of which is, I made a call 04:02 and talked to the IRS about this. 04:04 Give me the parameters on gifting. 04:07 They explained that you can gift 04:09 up to approximately 12 to $13,000 04:12 on an annual basis 04:14 without having to take any type of penalty or tax 04:18 on that amount and the person receiving, 04:22 and that person that's received the funds 04:24 can receive it willingly 04:25 and it shouldn't be a major issue. 04:28 But then I asked an additional question 04:30 about this type of program 04:32 and the person on the end of the line made this comment, 04:37 that they know that this program is ongoing. 04:41 And they understand and it's being watched 04:45 by those in certain levels of government 04:49 as those who are very interested in taxing 04:51 and getting funds back from any type of profit gained. 04:56 One of the major concerns 04:57 about this gifting type of situation 05:00 is that it comes in cycles and we can explain 05:03 what I mean by cycles 05:04 but gifting in and of itself 05:05 is something that is promoted by, 05:08 it's in IRS form 950 05:10 that if you, you can gift up to $13,000 a year 05:14 and by doing so, 05:16 you are able to get a return on that investment. 05:20 You get money back 05:21 because you are now building a team, 05:23 you bring six people on to a team 05:26 and your team of gifting starts spinning 05:30 that money back towards you in the form of cash. 05:33 So my first question again was, well, if it is gifting, 05:38 what does it have to do with return on the investment? 05:42 Now if you make a gift to someone, 05:44 the annual gift exclusion via the form IRS 950 05:48 tells you that you can gift up to a certain amount 05:50 which is how they promote this type of thing. 05:55 Now I also have many different questions 05:58 about the gifting I don't know 06:00 as much as I should but I will tell you this, 06:03 that it has everything to do with building a team, 06:07 building a pyramid 06:09 and there is no product to be sold, 06:11 it has everything to do with money transaction. 06:14 And based on you giving a certain pool, 06:17 the greater the team under you, 06:19 the larger the amount of money 06:21 that you can get back in your pocket. 06:24 So now I did the research, 06:26 I went back online and I asked several questions 06:29 through different search engines 06:30 and basically said, 06:32 what is this thing called gifting? 06:33 And what has been the ramifications 06:35 over the past several cycles, 06:37 because that's the other element to this. 06:40 Many different pyramid schemes go through their cycles. 06:46 Their yearly cycles can range between three and five years 06:49 depending on when and this is a critical term, 06:52 critical mass happens. 06:54 Make sure you ask that question 06:55 because they will always tell you, 06:57 "Oh, we have not yet reached critical mass." 07:00 Critical mass basically is when you go up to someone 07:03 and tell them about this specific thing 07:05 and ask them to join. 07:07 And if you go to that next person 07:09 and they'll typically say, "I've already heard of it, 07:11 someone's already talked to me about it." 07:13 And it's at that point in time 07:14 when you have asked 10 people 07:16 and 9 out of those 10 already know, 07:18 you begin to get discouraged 07:20 because you cannot build your team 07:23 because everyone already knows about the same thing 07:25 and have made their own decision. 07:27 Now whether or not you like that approach 07:30 I thought it beneficial to talk about the comparison 07:35 between multilevel marketing, network marketing 07:39 and this thing called pyramids. 07:44 So as we look at what a pyramid actually is. 07:48 I thought it unique to compare multilevel marketing, 07:52 network marketing and assess that based on pyramid. 07:58 Now I mentioned to you earlier about critical mass, 08:01 why is that so important? 08:03 Because as you build the pyramid, 08:05 you have a person at the top 08:06 that's built his team 08:08 and that team has built their team 08:09 and that team has built their team. 08:10 So now you have exponential growth 08:12 in how they can get their message out there. 08:16 But what's wrong with that? 08:18 Because in any type of legitimate business 08:21 the first thing that arises is, what is their business focus? 08:25 When you have a multilevel marketing, 08:27 you are building a business based on a specific product 08:31 and or service that you have 08:33 and that you can give to someone else. 08:36 In a pyramid it's about recruiting other members 08:40 and there's not necessarily any legitimate business 08:43 and or service and if product and or service, 08:46 and if there is a product 08:48 you haven't really heard about it 08:49 and haven't really understood, 08:52 you know, what that product actually is, 08:54 because from my standpoint 08:55 if they have a really good product, 08:56 why isn't it well-known in the marketplace? 08:59 And when you ask those type of questions, 09:02 then you begin to understand 09:04 that the business in and of itself 09:07 has nothing to do with a legitimate product, 09:09 that product is only a sideline. 09:11 And what I've also found out is the business in and of itself 09:14 does not necessarily own the product itself. 09:18 They're actually selling a product 09:21 for some other legitimate business. 09:23 So now you begin to get a context 09:25 that it really has nothing to do 09:27 with some tangible product or service. 09:29 It has everything to do with building a team. 09:33 The other area is profits. 09:35 Number two, profits basically say 09:38 they're primarily based on the sales 09:40 of a product or service is a legitimate business. 09:43 You know, you have something 09:44 that you have to give to somebody, 09:46 someone or, or give them a service or product, 09:48 but in a pyramid 09:50 it's primarily based on membership fees 09:53 which can be very substantial. 09:55 And that's the other thing to look for is, 09:57 asking that, that specific question 09:59 that can give you the answer that you need, 10:02 or you can see that 10:03 they are avoiding answering that question. 10:06 I've been to several, I'm not going to label 10:08 which ones I went to but I've been to many. 10:11 I don't know if I have this thing on my forehead 10:13 where that guy will be a great business person 10:15 in our specific scheme. 10:17 So let's ask him to come and sit in on our presentation. 10:21 And their presentations are fantastic. 10:23 The presentations are though all about 10:25 and I saw the best one yet is has a product, 10:28 it does have a product which I've never heard about. 10:30 And then the product is set 10:32 to deliver something that has never, 10:34 I've never heard has been studied 10:36 or any results of any studies about 10:38 how that kind of thing can work itself out. 10:40 But when they get into it, the product is minimized, 10:43 the product is not a part of their overall sale scheme. 10:47 What they're advertising is a specific about membership, 10:53 membership growth and a substantive fee 10:55 they can get for bringing in five or six individuals 10:59 to that membership. 11:01 Now what's quite interesting in all of this, is a fact that 11:05 when you look at a community of individuals 11:08 who get involved in gifting or get involved 11:11 in any type of multilevel marketing or pyramid, 11:16 you begin to understand the distinctions 11:17 between the two 11:19 when you ask specific questions 11:22 and some of those questions include, 11:24 okay, what is my support system? 11:26 What is a product or service that I have? 11:28 What's a startup cost that I have? 11:29 And when you see a pyramid scheme 11:33 versus multilevel marketing or network marketing, 11:35 you begin to see little differences 11:38 and nuances in how they approach thing. 11:40 For example, household goods or services 11:42 that consumers typically use 11:43 in an everyday life in business, 11:46 that's considered of more multilevel marketing 11:48 where, hey, I'm happy with what I bought 11:51 at this retail, 11:52 I'm going to go to a friend of mine 11:53 and say, hey, guys you know, you got to get this product 11:55 because it's a really good product. 11:57 I would recommend you go to that retailer 12:00 and buy the product, 12:01 so now I can go to a specific place, 12:03 see a specific product 12:04 and get good feedback about the product 12:07 and that's why I buy that product or services, 12:10 that's where network marketing or multilevel marketing 12:13 comes into play, 12:15 where you have a group of people 12:16 who are sold on a product 12:17 that you need to use that you bought, 12:22 purchase for your home or your business 12:25 and you're happy with how it performs 12:27 and you go to somebody else 12:28 and say, I have a great referral for you, 12:31 you should try this out. 12:32 And your neighbor or friend don't have to go through you, 12:36 they go directly to that legitimate business 12:38 and purchase that product 12:40 that's how more so network marketing goes. 12:43 Now how does it work? 12:46 Well, sometimes there's kind of like a finder's fee. 12:49 You go out and market for that organization, 12:52 then of course there's a legitimate fee 12:55 that can be paid to someone 12:56 that is bringing in business for you. 12:58 On the flip side of that air, 13:01 the pyramid schemes have a product 13:03 that's not necessarily the priority. 13:07 It's thinly veiled as a good product or whatever 13:10 but you never hear 13:11 about any kind of quality research done 13:13 on that product and you don't hear 13:15 that product being prioritized in the presentation. 13:18 What you hear is an individual talking 13:21 about your development of a team. 13:24 It's based more so on bringing somebody in 13:28 and it was interesting 13:29 because I had a great conversation 13:30 with an individual. 13:32 I was asked to come in and I sat in on the meeting, 13:34 I saw, this is actually not too bad 13:36 and I couldn't see through it 13:38 until I actually talked to one of their major directors 13:42 or VPs or whatever the level they were at. 13:45 And I asked the question is, 13:48 what is your focus? 13:50 What is the benefit of joining this business? 13:52 And he answered me in the way 13:55 that helped me make my decision. 13:57 He basically said, "I don't focus on any product." 14:03 I just focus on building my team, 14:05 there's my answer. 14:07 There is nothing in there legitimate for me to purchase. 14:10 It's all about a membership fee 14:12 and that membership fee can be substantive, 14:15 can be between 249. 14:17 And right now I think the price point 14:18 has worked itself down to like 14:20 299 or 249 with some incentives, 14:23 they're doing a point based system. 14:24 All of these kind of things come into your mind 14:26 and you get so confused with the point base 14:28 and the legitimacy of the business 14:31 and how much money you can actually make, 14:33 you start, you start getting so enthused 14:35 about the possibility of becoming a director 14:37 by bringing on a total of about 20 recruits 14:41 and that's how you make your business, 14:43 how much you make your money. 14:44 Now the next step is support. 14:47 Most of the time it's low pressure 14:49 from a legitimate business it's low pressure, 14:52 it's not a major issue, you go out, you say, 14:54 hey, look I'm happy with the product, 14:55 you can buy it if you'd like to, it's up to you, 14:58 but I'm giving you a good recommendation 15:00 on the product. 15:01 If it's a pyramid, 15:02 there's a lot more pressure to sell, 15:05 there's a lot more pressure. 15:07 They are involved in the recruiting cost, 15:11 there's a cost to build your team. 15:14 There's a pressure to teach you 15:16 how to sell this product a lot more. 15:19 There's a lot of pressure involved 15:21 when it comes to pyramid 15:23 versus an actual network marketing scheme. 15:27 Now there are some other elements 15:29 because if you go to the Better Business Bureau, 15:32 you can pretty much get a context 15:34 of what the concern is may or the concern may be 15:37 with this type of organization. 15:39 For example, the Better Business Bureau 15:43 may have a report on a, on a pyramid. 15:48 But the report may not be very good 15:50 and they're typically not registered, 15:53 that organization is not registered 15:55 with the Better Business Bureau, 15:57 but the product that they sell with comes from a company 16:00 that may be registered with the Better Business Bureau, 16:02 and it was interesting to me as you look 16:04 at some of that information 16:07 that, that you saw that they didn't have that product 16:12 and the manufacturing organization 16:14 didn't have a very good quality commitment performance 16:19 to their consumers. 16:23 So those are the little things that you can start looking 16:25 and saying, wow, am I being pressured? 16:28 Do I have to build a team? 16:30 Is that the legitimate way 16:32 that I grow my business 16:33 versus selling a legitimate product 16:36 and or service? 16:37 And one of the things is always coming my way, 16:39 many times it's... 16:41 well he's a Christian or he's of this 16:44 or he's a part of the church community. 16:47 That's why you should get involved in it. 16:49 Look, if you're going to glorify your Father 16:53 which is in heaven by looking at, 16:54 you need to look at all aspects of what's going on. 16:58 As God gives you wisdom 17:00 and I keep coming back to Psalms 90:12, 17:03 "Teach us to number our days, so that we gain wisdom." 17:07 If we now see something 17:10 that mirrors something in the past, 17:12 it's incumbent upon us to study it 17:14 to make some kind of right decision upon it 17:17 and also be able to distinguish 17:20 so you can walk away from it 17:23 knowing that it's not something 17:25 that you should be necessarily involved in. 17:28 Merchandise buyback. 17:31 In a regular business, a legitimate business, 17:33 you can always buyback the merchandise 17:36 or return the merchandise 17:37 if it's not working correctly for you. 17:40 In a pyramid, 17:41 it's typically never possible to return 17:45 or it's hard to return or get your money back from that. 17:49 Typically in any type of pyramid 17:51 they ask you to give them a cashier's check, 17:54 cash a check or debit card. 17:57 So watch that carefully 17:58 because if it's too good to be true. 18:02 And once they have access to your account, 18:04 the money is gone 18:05 and it's very difficult to get that money back. 18:09 Next one would get to be, 18:12 if you want to get out of the project. 18:14 The project, getting out of any type of project, 18:17 it should be or getting out to any type of business 18:19 should be relatively easy 18:21 if you're not comfortable with it. 18:22 And any type of legitimate business offer, 18:24 you can typically get out of it 18:26 if you necessarily have to but getting out, 18:28 it's difficult or hard to do 18:31 and you're put through sales pressure. 18:33 I mentioned about some of the experiences 18:35 I've had dealing with sales of vehicles. 18:39 I went in and had to buy a vehicle 18:42 or try to purchase a vehicle from a company, 18:46 a car company that had a bad reputation 18:48 and it was very difficult to leave that organization 18:51 because they put you under a lot of pressure 18:53 to buy the car, 18:55 the same thing is involved here. 18:56 In any type of pyramid 18:58 you're going to find it very hard, 19:00 very difficult to get out of that environment 19:05 because they'll put a lot of pressure on you, 19:07 and remember I mentioned this issue 19:09 called critical mass. 19:11 Critical mass is when everyone knows about this legitimate, 19:14 this type of business project. 19:16 And if everyone knows about it, 19:18 what happens at the bottom of that pyramid 19:21 is when everyone that has come in 19:22 and they found it now at the bottom hard 19:25 to bring more people on to this, 19:27 this pyramid that the bottom of that pyramid 19:30 begins to crumble because, you know 19:32 it's not easy for me to bring anyone on, 19:34 this business is not going to work for me, 19:36 I've given up my $250 my $500 19:40 and I'm not seeing that return on the investment 19:42 'cause everyone else has been reached 19:44 that could be reached on this in my region. 19:47 So that's why you find all of these, 19:50 these pyramid schemes you have there directors and VPs 19:53 they're flying all over the country 19:54 because they're trying to get into markets 19:57 that has not been absorbed by this deal 20:02 and so they can build their team in those areas. 20:04 They fly everywhere and then critical mass happens. 20:07 What happens at critical mass is, 20:10 I no longer can bring anyone on board 20:12 and if I can't bring anyone on board, 20:14 the pyramid starts to collapse at the bottom 20:17 and then it begins to go away, 20:19 so the people at the top have made their money 20:21 and the people at the top then make a decision. 20:25 Make a legitimate decision 20:27 to cut this organization as it is, 20:30 therefore the three to five year cycle 20:32 then goes away and comes back in a different form. 20:37 They studied again to see what happened 20:39 and bring in a different product 20:41 and bring in a whole different pyramid 20:43 that they need to build 20:45 and then the thing takes off again. 20:47 Cycles of three to five, three to six years 20:50 and you'll see that in many different situations. 20:53 But what people don't realize 20:55 and what people don't begin to understand 20:57 is that there are repercussions 21:00 even in gifting or in other pyramids, 21:05 there have been people that have gone to jail 21:08 but we don't remember it 21:09 because it happened six to eight years back. 21:12 As you do your research, you can find that 21:14 some of these have had people that have been incarcerated 21:17 or have been charged certain fees through the IRS 21:21 because it has not been found to be legitimate 21:24 and of course those things take time. 21:28 So you understand why they're not worried. 21:31 Those people in government are seeing these things 21:33 that are going on and not worried. 21:34 They're monitoring it 21:35 and they'll handle it at the right time. 21:37 So you can begin to understand 21:39 why it's important to study something, 21:42 to ask the right question 21:44 and to begin the process of realizing 21:46 that if you get involved in something 21:49 that's not legitimate, 21:51 it begins that spiral of wasting your time. 21:54 And remember this, you are a demographic 21:59 that is looking at finding ways to get access to funds, 22:03 because remember we're spending what we make 22:05 and they know that's what's going on. 22:08 So they target those type of individuals 22:11 and say, hey, you look like you need some money 22:13 and if you get involved in this business, 22:17 then you will make a ton of money 22:18 by building your team. 22:20 Watch what they say, listen to what they say, 22:23 understand that it's not necessarily 22:26 something you should get involved in, 22:28 if it has to do more so with building a team 22:32 and not selling and or promoting 22:35 a legitimate product and or service. 22:37 And then of course there are those issues 22:41 about how long the business lasts. 22:43 There's cycles, three to five and then they go away 22:46 and they come back 22:48 as a different type of business. 22:51 Profits, the time and effort to sell a product or service, 22:55 a legitimate product or service, 22:57 there's always profits in doing that 22:58 and if you manage your business well you'll do okay. 23:02 But in reference to pyramid scheme, 23:05 the majority of the people 23:07 in any type of pyramid will lose money. 23:11 You invest your money, you buy into the business, 23:14 you are told that you'll make a lot of money 23:17 and all the time in their presentations, 23:19 no, no we have not yet reached critical mass 23:22 because they want you to join. 23:25 The moment you join, 23:26 everyone at the top of this pyramid 23:29 makes a ton of money, 23:30 those towards the bottom 23:32 that have come in towards the end 23:34 find it difficult to sell to somebody else 23:38 and find it difficult to generate 23:40 any type of income. 23:42 So all I can really tell you is that 23:45 return on that investment is low to none. 23:49 So the majority of people will lose money, 23:52 you are less likely to have any type of turnaround. 23:56 You can know a pyramid by the fact 23:58 that they don't focus 23:59 on a specific product or service 24:02 but they look at building a team. 24:06 The bottom line in all of this is this. 24:08 A product or service based organization 24:12 that's been incorporated the right way 24:14 as a sole proprietor, as an S-Corp, 24:16 as a corporation, as a nonprofit 24:18 is in business to provide a service or product. 24:22 If it's a pyramid, 24:24 it's all based on building that pyramid, that's it. 24:28 If their focus is on building a team 24:31 and not selling a product, 24:33 it's not really a legitimate business 24:35 that you should get involved in. 24:36 You're most likely to waste your time, 24:40 take it from me. 24:41 I have been involved in it in the past. 24:44 And many of those didn't work out. 24:46 Unless I came in at the top, 24:48 that's why they press the urgency 24:51 of getting involved in this 24:53 of doing this quickly getting included in this 24:56 and now what they're doing 24:57 is they're reaching out to faith based organizations 25:00 or coming into different facilities, 25:02 come into your home, 25:04 they do these great presentations. 25:05 But they will not answer 25:07 the legitimate questions that you ask. 25:09 They will actually put you off, 25:11 the question, we don't need to address 25:12 that question right now. 25:14 We'll deal with it then. 25:15 Do they ever deal with it at the end, not necessarily. 25:18 There are other issues that you should be aware of. 25:22 This is quite critical 25:23 because there are concerns that you should have 25:26 when an individual ask you to sign up 25:29 and then they at that time say, look, 25:31 if you can sign up 15 to 20 people 25:33 over the next two or three weeks, 25:35 I will give you your money back, is that, 25:39 is that a legitimate way to do business? 25:41 Is that a legitimate way 25:44 of bringing somebody into an organization 25:47 without a typical product, 25:48 without a typical service that you can provide? 25:52 And all you're focused on is building a team 25:55 because for each person you bring on your team, 25:58 you get a commission. 26:00 You get an incentive 26:01 and that was quite interesting to me 26:03 because the individuals now as you study it 26:06 that get targeted in any type of pyramid scheme 26:09 whether it be gifting, 26:10 whether it be any type of other organization is this, 26:15 they target you because you want money 26:17 which goes back to my initial thought. 26:21 If you're not budgeting, 26:23 if you don't know where your money comes from 26:25 and where your money goes, 26:27 then you're having a specific problem 26:30 because you're likely to be spending everything 26:32 that you make. 26:34 They know that. 26:35 People who research your marketing data 26:38 that they get on an ongoing basis 26:40 know that you spend what you make. 26:43 So we begin to get into these lottery type of things. 26:47 We try to get into fast cash 26:48 and they know that will be sucked 26:50 into any type of fraud or scam that's out there. 26:54 And if you do that, 26:55 you're the one that gets caught in that 26:57 because you don't necessarily have the money to, to do it 27:01 but you find it. 27:02 And when you get into it, 27:03 you find that you've lost the capacity 27:06 to gain money or a return on that investment 27:09 because it was set up in a fraudulent way, 27:12 it's something that you should not get involved in 27:16 if you ask the right questions. 27:19 If you set up a budget, if you live by that budget, 27:23 if you have excess income that you put into savings 27:28 and you put into investments, you would be far better. 27:32 You would be much happier if you took that investment, 27:36 that savings and put it into a legitimate nonprofit 27:39 like 3ABN and gave to those type of organizations 27:44 that are gifting the gospel. 27:48 I'm enthused about this program 27:50 because pyramid schemes 27:52 and multilevel marketing schemes 27:53 are things you should look at, 27:55 ask the right questions about 27:58 and begin the process of thinking critically. 28:00 Take that to the bank, God bless. |
Revised 2017-02-21