Participants: Dwayne Lemon (Host), Lance Wilbur
Series Code: TKS
Program Code: TKS000003
00:30 Hello, my name is Dwayne Lemon.
00:32 And I'm Lance Wilbur.
00:34 And we want to welcome you to a True Knowledge of Self,
00:38 where we get to know ourselves from a Biblical perspective.
00:42 We have an opportunity today
00:43 where we're going to interview Lance Wilbur.
00:46 I had the privilege of being interviewed by him
00:48 to give him a little bit of my story,
00:50 but I'm especially excited about talking with Lance
00:52 and hearing about his story
00:54 because that same principle
00:55 that was in our previous episodes,
00:57 talking about overcoming
00:59 and the ability to do that by the word of our testimony
01:01 as found in Revelation 12:11.
01:04 I'm thankful because I had an opportunity
01:06 to share from a different perspective of my experience
01:09 in the hip-hop and R & B culture.
01:11 Brother Lance comes from a different experience
01:13 and I think his experience is going to speak
01:15 to many of the hearts of those who are viewing with us today,
01:17 so I'm very excited about this.
01:19 Lance, I'm really happy to have you with us, brother.
01:21 All right.
01:22 So that we can hear a little bit
01:23 about how the Lord has led you, in your experience,
01:26 as it relates to growing up outside of Christ,
01:29 outside of the Bible,
01:30 growing up in urban youth and urban environments
01:34 and so on, and how the Lord has led you.
01:36 I'll just go ahead and start
01:37 by just asking you a simple question.
01:39 Tell us where you're from,
01:40 tell us a little bit about your upbringing.
01:42 All right.
01:43 Well, I'm from Massachusetts,
01:44 still in the northeast and the east coast,
01:47 slightly a different experience.
01:49 I was born in a suburb, moved into the city,
01:52 there for a short period of time,
01:54 back out to the suburb in which I was born,
01:56 right outside on the outskirts of Boston,
01:59 and as, you know, a young man,
02:02 some of the same challenges as we discussed,
02:06 but I'm raised in a single-parent household,
02:10 a little different dynamic.
02:12 My father is in and out,
02:13 so it's not like I didn't know who he was,
02:16 but he was in and out.
02:18 And some of the memories, complete chaos, and violent,
02:22 domestic violence, and all kinds of madness.
02:25 So I had that coming up, so obviously,
02:28 there's the obvious void,
02:29 when you are growing up as a young man,
02:32 no father figure to speak of,
02:34 boyfriends coming in and out of the picture
02:37 with the mother,
02:39 really no consistent male figure to pattern myself after.
02:44 Now, if you don't mind, just, you know, looking back at that,
02:47 when you think about your experience
02:48 coming from a single-parent home,
02:51 and you said there was domestic violence,
02:52 was that something that was inflicted
02:54 on everybody in your household or was it just, you know,
02:58 how was that manifested.
02:59 How did that affect you, Lance?
03:01 Strangely enough, it was just between my father and mother.
03:04 I mean, my father never touched me,
03:06 never laid a hand on me,
03:08 you know, maybe once in a while for disciplinary sake,
03:10 but never struck me or anything like that,
03:13 but I have seen situations where, you know,
03:15 I've seen him do crazy things
03:17 that I won't mention for his sake
03:19 but the kinds of things that you never forget
03:23 and that you are helpless,
03:25 you know, at a young age, five, six, seven years old,
03:28 you're absolutely helpless.
03:29 You can't do anything to prevent it.
03:31 So it was traumatic
03:33 but it was something that became normal.
03:34 Now, this is interesting because, you know,
03:37 we are hearing unfortunate recent reports about young men
03:41 who go on a gun craze
03:43 and they will not only take the lives of others
03:45 but sometimes, they take the lives of their own parents.
03:48 In other words, it is something they saw from childhood
03:51 that's obviously stuck in their minds,
03:52 to the point that it seems almost
03:54 as if when they grow up and get older,
03:56 they are thinking, "Once I get my chance,
03:58 I'm going to let it loose."
04:00 Were these the kind of thoughts,
04:01 vengeful thoughts or anything that has gone on in your mind?
04:03 You can say that, but I was, I was...
04:06 I consider myself now looking back,
04:08 I was always thinking,
04:10 so I was always in my own kind of world
04:12 and trying to rationalize and think things through.
04:15 So I felt that I could control, you know, my aggression.
04:22 But if my aggression, you know, let go,
04:25 then it was going to be problems,
04:27 but I tried to, or I prided myself,
04:30 if you will, on my ability to control,
04:33 you know, my environment, my situation,
04:35 my actions, my behavior.
04:37 So now, you know, you are growing up in a home
04:40 where it's broken and Dad is not around,
04:43 anywhere near to the amount he needs to be,
04:45 Mom is obviously trying to play a role of mother
04:48 and father as much as possible, siblings?
04:51 I had a younger brother eventually,
04:52 but he is like eight years younger to me so,
04:55 really I have half sisters that lived in different states,
04:59 so it was pretty much me,
05:01 and my little brother came along,
05:02 but, you know, we had a large age gap.
05:04 Okay, all right.
05:05 So now, growing up, you got your younger brother,
05:08 but, you know, there's a gap, so I don't know,
05:09 you probably didn't have as tight a relationship
05:11 with him?
05:13 No, as it, not like we grew up together.
05:16 I was always way, in a whole another stage of life
05:17 as he is coming up.
05:18 Got you.
05:20 Okay, so now, you're growing up,
05:21 you're at home,
05:22 Mom is obviously trying to work to take care of you all
05:24 and so on, I would assume that
05:27 if Mom is trying to be mother and father,
05:29 and then on top of that, she is busy working and so on,
05:32 that means you had a lot of time to yourself.
05:34 Had a lot of time to myself and that's pretty much
05:37 where some of the challenges and the problems came from.
05:39 So I can't really blame my parents.
05:42 My mother was a nurse.
05:43 She worked long hours, double shifts,
05:45 she was constantly out of the house,
05:47 so, yeah, coming up,
05:49 you've pretty much taken care of yourself,
05:51 'cause, you know, once you hit that age
05:53 where you can take care of yourself,
05:54 you're at home, alone,
05:56 and then I had one of my little brothers coming along,
05:57 I'm taking care of him, you know, at seven,
06:00 eight, nine years old,
06:02 basically watching an infant for,
06:04 you know, eight hours, coming home from school,
06:06 and you kind of living on your own, if you will,
06:10 so it was pretty much in that setting.
06:12 There was no real religion in my household.
06:14 Okay. No church to speak of.
06:16 No prayer or even any religious discussion
06:20 or concepts that I can remember as a little child.
06:24 And my mother was young as well and, you know,
06:26 she had her own life, you know, partying and music,
06:29 it was a biracial household as well.
06:31 So I was exposed to, you know,
06:35 the full spectrum of cultures and music and everything else.
06:42 So, yeah, it was a challenge,
06:43 there's no question about it and at the same time,
06:46 you're going through the normal changes,
06:48 and the normal development,
06:49 and the normal stages, and trying to find your own,
06:51 and trying to find where you fit in,
06:53 and so we found ourselves moving a lot,
06:56 you know, financially,
06:57 we were in poverty pretty much growing up.
06:59 It's not like we didn't eat...
07:01 Yeah, yeah.
07:02 But, you know, we didn't have what everybody else had.
07:06 So I found myself escaping into entertainment,
07:11 escaping into music, escaping into movies,
07:13 and everything else, and now, we're,
07:16 I'm out in the suburbs at this time,
07:18 so I'm getting exposed to hip-hop
07:20 for the very first time through the TV,
07:24 you know, through images, you know, old,
07:28 I think when MTV is just starting out,
07:30 and they had video music box and V66,
07:34 and they're playing these music videos,
07:35 and you have movies, and you had, you know, music.
07:39 We had local in Boston area,
07:40 we had local groups, you know, New Edition, and
07:42 Ed O.G. and Da Bulldogs,
07:45 and so there was hip-hop in Boston
07:48 but it was nowhere near the same scene.
07:51 There was the industries that labels,
07:53 the industry was not present in Boston like that.
07:56 There weren't many studios to speak of
07:58 and exactly to speak of, so most people,
08:01 if they wanted to make it big, or they wanted to get in,
08:03 they had to go to New York,
08:04 they had to go through New York to do that,
08:06 so I'm getting exposed in that way,
08:09 and pretty much now as I'm going into...
08:13 We moved into another section of the city
08:16 and this was supposedly the bad section of the city,
08:21 and new group of friends, new neighborhood,
08:25 I'm going into junior high,
08:27 and I'm always, I was always big.
08:31 I was always taller than everybody in my class
08:33 and so I always hung around with older people,
08:36 you know, older age groups.
08:38 Now, what was your attitude like
08:39 when you transitioned into high school?
08:41 'Cause you remember, when I went to high school,
08:42 I'm a nobody, nobody is recognizing me,
08:44 no one wants to be my friend, I had to use something, I mean,
08:47 when you came into high school, were you going in insecure?
08:50 Were you going in like, "Look, I'm the man," I mean,
08:52 what was your attitude like going into high school,
08:54 as you're branching into this new phase in your life?
08:57 It was slightly different in that,
08:59 I felt that I had a reputation, I had a niche.
09:01 As I'm getting older, I'm always bigger, and that,
09:05 you know, that holds weight in the street,
09:08 so I found myself being able to establish myself
09:12 and do anything I wanted to do, and lead other people,
09:14 so I had my crew and lead other men
09:17 and, you know, other kids
09:18 and pretty much make my own way.
09:22 So by the time I'm getting into junior high,
09:24 that's development,
09:25 so by the time I get into high school,
09:26 I already had, kind of a reputation
09:28 that preceded me and, you know, I felt like I was...
09:34 I was, where I needed to be and if anybody, you know,
09:37 wanted to challenge that,
09:39 then I was ready for that challenge.
09:40 So now, right now, you're at a point where,
09:43 you know, you're what I'm going to say
09:45 was the typical urban youth that we see a lot going on,
09:49 sometimes single-parent home,
09:52 growing up with the television, videogames and friends
09:54 are pretty much what's around us
09:55 more than own parental guidance,
09:57 then on top of that, you're in school.
09:59 You're using the influences what you got naturally,
10:01 you're a big guy, so you figured,
10:03 "Let me use that to my influence
10:04 to be influential to others" and so on,
10:07 where is the role of, you know,
10:10 the influence of hip-hop culture
10:11 at that point in your life?
10:13 Like I said,
10:14 when I moved to this new section of the town,
10:16 this outside as what we called it,
10:18 and I got a new group of friends,
10:20 and there's a new junior high I'm going into,
10:23 I moved right at like the tail end of the summer.
10:27 I got exposed to the music.
10:30 Basically, you know, we had the tape store, a record store,
10:33 and go down to the record store,
10:35 and they will put out new music and I just remember,
10:38 just one summer in particular,
10:41 a couple of individuals that I had met through my mother,
10:44 they worked with my mother,
10:45 they had just gone out of New York.
10:47 There was a brother from Holland
10:49 and a brother from Brooklyn,
10:50 and so they were talking about, you know,
10:51 these different groups,
10:53 some of the groups I never heard of,
10:54 so I go to the record store and I pick up, you know,
10:58 Slick Rick, and your Tribe Called Quest,
11:01 and your KRS-One, and your Kool G Rap and your,
11:05 so I started getting into this.
11:06 There were other young people, like out of way,
11:09 I can go back to elementary school,
11:11 and some of my classmates, their older brothers,
11:15 and Beastie Boys comes out,
11:17 you know, I think it was called,
11:18 Licensed to Ill, and they're coming in schools,
11:20 singing these songs,
11:21 never heard anything like that in my life,
11:23 completely different.
11:25 Run Diam comes out
11:26 and these things that are completely different,
11:29 you know, new, and so that is attractive,
11:33 you know, becomes attractive.
11:34 It's the new thing, it's the cool thing,
11:36 it's the popular thing,
11:37 at least amongst the young people,
11:39 so I started just becoming a junkie, you know,
11:42 like a music consumer to the max.
11:46 And, you know, I didn't have money to buy,
11:47 I was just going in and steal the stuff,
11:50 so as I saw being practiced in my surroundings, you know,
11:54 theft, and beat downs, selling drugs, partying,
11:59 I just got into that at an early age.
12:00 You know, at 10 years old, I was smoking, 10 years old,
12:04 I was drinking, 10 years old, I was going to parties
12:07 and getting involved with girls and all that stuff.
12:10 So by the time I'm 11, 12, 13, 14, going into high school,
12:15 I mean, that was my lifestyle everyday.
12:17 Now curious.
12:19 When you were listening
12:20 and getting more heavily exposed
12:23 to the hip-hop culture and all that comes with it,
12:25 and, you know, and we're saying hip-hop culture for a reason,
12:28 because sometimes, people just focus on the music
12:31 and the industry
12:32 but it's not just music and industry,
12:34 it's a culture, it's a complete lifestyle,
12:36 so we're being very deliberate about that,
12:38 and we're going to build on that in, you know,
12:40 further programs just so that we can all be on the same page
12:42 and understand this.
12:44 But, you know, Lance, when we're talking about that,
12:46 you're exposed to this hip-hop culture now,
12:47 all these things are coming in,
12:49 one of the things I'm curious about
12:50 from the artist's standpoint,
12:52 you just mentioned all these hip-hop artists,
12:53 who are the ones that appealed to you most and why?
12:56 There is a reason I'm asking this question.
12:57 Yeah, I understand.
12:59 Obviously, what appealed to me most was the intellectual,
13:05 you know, the knowledge,
13:06 not just the guys they're rhyming,
13:09 and just, you know, making words connect,
13:10 and just the party songs, the club songs, but, you know,
13:14 the brothers that are actually putting together
13:17 and constructing complex, deep, intricate rhymes,
13:21 the word play, the syllables, you know, the metaphors,
13:26 those kind of things,
13:27 that's what I dedicated myself to,
13:31 like memorizing, and studying the artists,
13:34 and seeing how this is going to happen.
13:38 And we had a local, you know, we had local MCs.
13:41 And so there was one,
13:42 he was like in the next grade above me
13:44 and he was like the local main MC,
13:47 so every school party,
13:49 dances, every get-together, he was the MC,
13:54 so he became part of my crew and so we used to get together,
13:59 you know, party, listen to music,
14:01 and I would always memorize the rhymes,
14:03 and at a certain point, he used to, you know,
14:07 write rhymes and kind of try to,
14:10 not kind of teach, but he challenged me one day.
14:12 He was like, "Listen, I notice that you can memorize
14:15 all of these rhymes and you can repeat 'em exactly,
14:17 you know, precisely, with the delivery,
14:19 the timing, all these things,
14:21 why don't you try writing your own rhymes?"
14:23 And I said, "I never thought about that."
14:25 He said that's the interesting challenge
14:27 and so there was an event, a little,
14:31 I had an altercation at my high school
14:34 and, you know, they threatened to kick me out.
14:36 They wouldn't let me come back in
14:38 without like a psychological evaluation,
14:40 I had to go through this counseling,
14:42 and kind of like anger management,
14:43 before there was anger management,
14:45 and at that moment,
14:48 that's that moment when I was waiting to go
14:49 see the psychiatrist or whoever it was,
14:51 the counselor, I wrote, you know, my first rhymes.
14:55 And I wrote my first rhymes, I mean, that was it.
15:00 Now when you wrote your first rhyme,
15:02 you were realizing,
15:03 "All right, I obviously have a talent."
15:04 Somebody challenged you. Yeah.
15:06 And that helped bring it out.
15:08 Were you at this point when you wrote
15:09 your first rhyme thinking, "You know what?
15:11 I want to take this to the next level."
15:12 Like some people are just content being the local MC.
15:16 Did you want to bring it to the next level
15:17 and say, "Look, I want to actually get into the industry,
15:19 I want to penetrate this thing."
15:20 I definitely considered it,
15:22 but I'm probably 14 at that time
15:25 and I'm always anti-establishment,
15:27 I'm anti-authority and all those things.
15:31 I'm naturally rebellious.
15:34 I just won't do something
15:35 just because somebody told me to do it.
15:37 So in my mind I gravitated
15:39 what I considered to be the underground
15:42 aspects of hip-hop.
15:44 Those people that, yeah,
15:45 they were maybe putting out albums,
15:47 they were doing shows,
15:48 but they weren't selling millions of records,
15:51 they weren't super-rich,
15:52 they still may be sleeping at home with their parents,
15:55 but they're making maybe videos and albums,
15:58 so I was more gravitating, in my mind,
16:00 I considered the fact that
16:03 if I stay true to the craft then I wouldn't become popular,
16:07 I would never be popular,
16:09 so I was perfectly content with being an underground MC
16:13 and just make a career out of crushing other suspect MCs
16:19 and spreading knowledge,
16:21 spreading what I believe to be, you know,
16:23 the truth and what people need to know.
16:24 So it sounds to me like, in my experience,
16:27 I was looking more towards the fun and the enjoyment
16:30 and a lot of the emotional stimulus and all that stuff,
16:34 but you were caught up from the hip-hop perspective
16:36 more on the intellectual, the deep knowledge,
16:40 to the point that you were not even aspiring
16:41 to go into the industry.
16:42 You were like, "Look, I want to keep you underground"
16:44 almost to the point, would you consider
16:45 that to go into the industry
16:47 was almost a stepping stone to possibly selling out?
16:49 Oh, that to me, industry was sell-out.
16:52 You know, major labels sell out.
16:56 To me, I couldn't, because I was still,
16:57 I was in the streets,
16:59 I was, I was selling drugs if I had to,
17:01 I was, you know, committing acts of violence,
17:04 theft, I was completely corrupt.
17:07 So in my mind, if I went into the industry,
17:09 I couldn't do those things anymore,
17:11 I couldn't still be street and be a professional.
17:16 I had to do one or the other or else,
17:17 you know, they wouldn't mix, they wouldn't be compatible.
17:21 So I would have to sell out the street in my mind
17:24 as my rationale at, you know, at 14 or whatever.
17:27 I had to sell out the street and leave that life
17:30 in order to make this image and this career, if you will.
17:33 So, you pretty much brought us now up to the point
17:36 that you're at least 14 or 15 years old,
17:39 attraction to hip-hop culture and entertainment
17:42 and is that the point where, you know,
17:44 you are now seeing yourself not only with the skill set,
17:48 but you want to preserve it
17:50 and you're not getting caught up
17:51 into the pull of the industry or anything like that?
17:53 At this stage in your life, was there anybody,
17:56 grandmother, grandfather, friend, enemy, anybody,
18:00 who was trying to have
18:02 any type of godly influence in your life,
18:05 at this point in time?
18:06 Not that I can remember.
18:07 I mean, the only kind of religious influence
18:09 I had at that time,
18:11 my mother started getting into, like,
18:13 new age things and that kind of stuff.
18:17 I really didn't listen to.
18:18 We didn't have those conversations in my home.
18:22 There were a couple of brothers that I mentioned,
18:24 the brothers that came from New York,
18:26 one was associated with the Zulu Nation,
18:28 which we'll be talking about in short,
18:30 one was associated with the Five-Percent Nation,
18:34 so, you know, they had an angle,
18:36 but it wasn't,
18:38 you know, it was just kind of theories.
18:39 So I was garnering a lot from the music,
18:43 you know, from the messages coming through,
18:46 the philosophies coming through.
18:48 I didn't like to read,
18:50 so I pretty much was just ingesting
18:52 what was coming through the culture.
18:54 Now, some people, you know,
18:56 you mentioned Five-Percenter or what have you,
18:59 there may be some of our viewers
19:00 who don't know what Five-Percenter is
19:03 or any of these type of things,
19:04 could you explain what that is real quick?
19:07 Basically, in short,
19:09 'cause I hope we're going to dedicate
19:10 an entire program for this.
19:12 But the Five-Percent Nation
19:14 or the Nation of what they call,
19:15 the Gods and the Earths came up in the '60s,
19:19 through one individual named Clarence 13X,
19:22 and he was kind of,
19:25 he left the NOI or the Nation of Islam,
19:27 if you heard about Malcolm X or Elijah Muhammed,
19:29 currently Louis Farrakhan.
19:31 After Malcolm X was assassinated,
19:33 he left Harlem Temple No. 7,
19:35 and he just like many others,
19:38 and he started to craft his own world view,
19:42 if you will,
19:43 and it became known as The Five-Percent Nation,
19:45 the Nation of the Gods and the Earths
19:47 and he basically,
19:50 recruited young men in the Harlem area
19:53 and it's essentially obtaining a true knowledge
19:59 that they believe came
20:00 from an individual named W.D. Fard Mohammad
20:03 that was the mentor to Elijah Mohammad
20:06 and this secret knowledge
20:08 was come to be delivered
20:11 to the black man, if you will,
20:14 that he is the original man, or essentially god.
20:18 They broke down these numbers, there was a lot,
20:20 what they called supreme mathematics
20:21 and the supreme alphabet
20:23 and there was the idea that 85% of humanity,
20:29 and especially, the individuals that came
20:31 from the African nations over to the,
20:35 in the slave trade,
20:37 that 85% of the world if you will,
20:39 or particularly the black man
20:41 were deaf, dumb, and blind, ignorant.
20:44 They had no guidance.
20:45 They were completely inept and inebriate,
20:48 intellectually and morally corrupt,
20:51 and then they were
20:52 what was called the ten-percent.
20:54 The ten-percent were those that knew
20:56 but that deliberately kept the lie,
21:00 perpetuated the lie,
21:01 and the base lie
21:04 was that there was a false religion,
21:10 what they call trickenology or spook religion,
21:13 where eventually, these corrupt individuals
21:15 through the ages
21:17 introduced a religion
21:19 that took the mind away from self
21:21 and directed it towards an unseen god
21:24 that you can't see, that's in some place
21:27 that you can't see, that you can't go,
21:29 and developed all of these laws
21:31 and this is where the Bible came from
21:32 and Moses introduced this
21:34 and Mohammed of Islam, of traditional Islam
21:38 developed these spook religions
21:40 where they're chasing a lie
21:43 and the truth was that God is in you, God is you.
21:47 We are the sole controllers
21:49 and this kind of question and answer to that method,
21:53 where you memorize kind of a catechism
21:55 of question and answer
21:56 became the lessons, became the core doctrine,
22:00 and you were ingratiated to memorize these things
22:02 and it was just very intriguing
22:04 'cause there was a lot of information,
22:06 a lot of "knowledge"
22:08 that never really amounted to anything,
22:10 at least in my estimation,
22:11 it was very circular in its reasoning,
22:14 but it was just information, it was knowledge,
22:15 it was a position,
22:17 there was something to stand for,
22:18 there was something to be a part of,
22:20 and it gave an alternative to the traditional story of,
22:24 like it was said though,
22:25 The white Jesus and, you know,
22:27 all of these things.
22:28 So that's it in a nutshell.
22:30 So then, at this point,
22:31 when you were learning about this,
22:33 'cause I know now,
22:34 you don't embrace these teachings.
22:37 But back then, I would imagine
22:38 this was really intriguing to you.
22:40 Yeah. I mean, absolutely.
22:41 It captured an area of my mind
22:44 where I was seeking for answers.
22:46 At some point,
22:47 I was looking to make sense
22:49 and put the knowledge that I had
22:52 or the philosophies that I began to develop
22:55 into a package
22:56 because I was, at least in my approach,
23:00 I was anti-establishment, anti-authority,
23:04 but I was very particular
23:05 and things had to be very organized,
23:07 and thoughtful, and reasonable,
23:09 so I didn't want to just kind of float around,
23:13 I wanted to know what the answers were
23:16 and I wanted to have something to deliver
23:18 that was tangible, practical, not theoretical.
23:22 Okay, so then, at this point now my question is,
23:25 what was your view of Christians at that time?
23:27 I remember when I was kind of engrossed into the industry,
23:30 I looked at Christians like a bunch of happy people
23:32 that don't even know why they're happy.
23:34 They are always emotional,
23:35 but they couldn't go back to anything that was
23:37 "intellectual" and say,
23:39 "This is why I believe what I believe" and so on.
23:40 I mean, what was going on in your mind
23:42 and your view towards church and Christianity?
23:45 Traditionally, at least on my mother's side,
23:46 her family was Catholic, Roman Catholic,
23:49 so in my mind, all Christianity was Roman Catholic.
23:53 You know, that was Christianity.
23:54 So to me,
23:56 they were corrupt and hypocrites.
23:59 And I didn't even consider them happy people,
24:01 I just saw them as just, you know,
24:03 confused and lost individuals of no practical worth.
24:07 They had no presence, if you will.
24:09 There was a church,
24:10 that you always knew was a church.
24:12 But where were the people?
24:14 I never saw the people, where did they go?
24:16 Where did they come from?
24:17 You know, so to me, they were just,
24:19 you know, they just took up space
24:20 and I considered them weak
24:22 as I began to now pursue
24:24 some of these things aggressively,
24:26 I considered Christians weak, double-minded,
24:29 unsure of themselves, insecure, no answers,
24:33 something like a detestable creature.
24:35 Now, now, this is sharp, because you know what?
24:39 I believe firmly
24:41 that the thoughts
24:42 that you had are the thoughts that many have today.
24:47 My question is when,
24:49 have Christians ever approached you
24:50 when you had this type of thinking?
24:52 Eventually, yeah.
24:53 I mean, as I get into that transition point.
24:57 There's definitely, we're going to talk about that.
24:59 Okay, so then you got to a point
25:00 where you see that,
25:01 you know, these folks are coming in.
25:03 If you could just, in a brief picture,
25:06 and then what we will do is we'll expand on it
25:07 as we go further in our next sessions,
25:10 what was like your average response
25:13 to the Christians
25:15 who would come to you at this time frame
25:16 when you were doing that?
25:17 And I'm asking these questions for a reason.
25:20 Aggression, animosity,
25:22 a kind of a disgust, a disdain,
25:24 and, you know, wouldn't give 'em an inch.
25:29 I would consider them just pushovers
25:31 and they didn't know what they were talking about,
25:33 I knew what I was talking about
25:35 and I'm just going to bulldoze you
25:37 and steamroll you intellectually or physically
25:41 if you want to take it there.
25:43 Now at this stage,
25:44 what were the books that you were reading
25:46 that gave you this picture
25:47 because since you were into intelligence,
25:50 you were more than likely reading something,
25:51 so what were you reading at that stage?
25:53 Well, that's the thing, is I hated reading.
25:56 Why? I hated reading.
25:58 So it was really...
26:00 Listening? Yeah.
26:01 It was up to that point where I didn't read.
26:02 I didn't really read, I mean, I read some things as a child,
26:05 reading, you know, different books here and there,
26:07 but I just didn't have any passion for reading.
26:12 I would get interested in something
26:13 and pick it up and read it,
26:14 but, you know,
26:16 I didn't even go at it like that.
26:17 I was more of the mindset
26:19 that I don't need to read some exterior book,
26:23 I need to observe
26:24 and master my surroundings
26:26 and deal with the physical,
26:28 you know, tangible level,
26:30 and you got people studying books,
26:32 their heads in a book and they don't know,
26:34 they don't know how to govern themselves.
26:37 Would you say at this stage in your life
26:39 that you were the reflector of other men's thoughts?
26:43 It has to be the truth
26:44 because you're developing an image
26:47 that you're getting from outside.
26:50 A whole lifestyle, a whole culture
26:52 that I'm adopting and accepting as it.
26:56 Where did it come from?
26:57 Who perpetuated it? What are its origins?
27:00 And you can study that out
27:01 but still even the people at the beginning
27:03 don't have an answer.
27:05 You know, it came from somewhere
27:07 and then now, once the industry gets involved,
27:09 they're doing all kinds of things
27:10 that people don't have any control of,
27:12 so things are just getting mixed,
27:13 and mashed, and mingled,
27:14 and amalgamated, into this package
27:17 that they are offering the consumer.
27:19 And I was a consumer for the most part.
27:22 You know, I don't know about you
27:24 but as I listen to brother Lance
27:25 share these things,
27:27 I know that it is very convincing
27:29 and it's to the point that you wonder,
27:30 how do you come out of this?
27:32 But I'm trusting that in our next episode,
27:35 we're going to get to hear about
27:36 how the Lord was able to bring him
27:37 out of this type of thinking
27:39 into the present understanding of his truth at this time.
27:41 And, Lance, I believe that a lot of people
27:43 are going through similar struggles
27:44 like what you were going through at that time,
27:46 so again, I really appreciate you
27:47 sharing that with us, brother.
27:49 Well, our time is up.
27:50 We want to thank you all for joining us here at TKS
27:51 and we want you to come back and this time, invite a friend,
27:54 so that hopefully,
27:55 we can all enjoy the blessings together.
27:57 Until next time, remember Proverbs 2:6,
28:00 that it's the Lord that gives wisdom
28:01 and out of His mouth
28:03 comes knowledge and understanding.