Urban Report

Adventist Muslim Relations

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Yvonne Lewis (Host), Dr. Keith Burton

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Series Code: UBR

Program Code: UBR000008


00:01 Have you ever wondered what Muslims believe...
00:03 or how are Muslims and Christians different...
00:06 well stay tuned...
00:08 My name is Yvonne Lewis and you're watching
00:10 Urban Report...
00:33 Welcome to Urban Report... today my first guest
00:37 is Dr. Keith Burton, Coordinator of the Center for
00:41 Adventist-Muslim relations at Oakwood University...
00:44 or CAMR-OU for short... welcome to Urban Report
00:48 Dr. Burton...
00:49 It's good to be here...
00:51 Thank you... thank you for coming...
00:53 we really appreciate your being here...
00:56 First of all... tell us about CAMR-OU...
01:00 what actually do you do there? what is it?
01:03 What is that Center for Adventist-Muslim relations?
01:08 Well, CAMR-OU exists to foster positive relationships
01:12 between Muslims and Christians and we're here really
01:15 to build bridges... we know that Islam is
01:18 one of the world's major religions...
01:20 with, over 1.5 billion members
01:24 in the different factions,
01:27 and we're basically here to
01:30 just try to find ways in which we can work together
01:33 and to share the love of Christ in ways in which I believe
01:38 will please God... Amen...
01:40 because I was going to say... why is it important...
01:43 why do you think it's important for us to work together?
01:47 Well, we live in an age where... particularly in the West
01:51 many Muslims have been stigmatized
01:54 and in fact... many people have been looking
01:56 at Islam in negative ways
01:57 and many of those who have negative things to say
02:00 about Islam... profess to be Christian...
02:04 and as Adventist Christians, we basically, just want to show
02:09 our brothers and sisters that even though we may not
02:12 understand "Truth" the same way, that we do know that
02:15 we have some things in common
02:18 and that is... that the beliefs are in the
02:22 Creator God... and also belief that
02:26 there is a Savior who makes a difference
02:31 so, you know, and even though
02:33 we may have different ways of looking at Jesus...
02:37 for instance... He's definitely an important figure
02:41 in both Faiths... and so,
02:42 we're trying to find a way...
02:45 to put flesh on what we teach
02:48 so that our Muslim brothers and sisters...
02:50 can know the Christ that we say we believe in...
02:53 Oh, you know, this is interesting to me because
02:56 you often see... Muslims in the street
02:59 and, of course, there are different types of Muslims
03:01 and we can talk about that... but...
03:04 in Nation of Islam, Sufi and all that...
03:06 but we never really... at least... I've never really
03:11 investigated Islam that deeply,
03:14 to know... what do they believe in...
03:17 first of all... and then how does that compare
03:20 with what Christians believe in.
03:22 So, what do Muslims believe in, first of all?
03:26 Well, of course... asking that question is almost
03:31 like asking what Christians believe in...
03:33 because there are many, many,
03:34 different factions of Christianity
03:36 but, of course, most Muslims will basically agree
03:39 to what we call the five pillars...
03:41 and that first of all is a confession that
03:44 there is one God...
03:46 the second belief is that a faithful person
03:50 needs to pray 5 times a day at assigned times...
03:53 that there needs to be a time set aside each year
03:57 for fasting... that persons need to give alms
04:01 or at least give charity to others in the Community...
04:04 and finally... it's believed that every faithful Muslim
04:08 who has the means... should take a pilgrimage
04:12 at least once in his or her lifetime...
04:14 to Mecca... there is also a belief
04:17 by some folks... the 6th pillar...
04:20 not all agree on this... in the concept of Jihad
04:24 now, of course, when we used to think about Jihad
04:27 at least in our Western, modern sensibilities...
04:30 we think about those who strap on bombs on themselves
04:34 you know, and blow people up...
04:36 Yes... yes... but, of course, in the Koran
04:40 we read about this concept of Jihad
04:42 and the Jihad al-Akbar which is the greater Jihad
04:46 is actually the struggle against self...
04:49 you know... the struggle against the tendencies
04:52 the struggle against sin... and Oh...
04:54 when a faithful Muslim talks about Jihad...
04:58 this is what... he or she has in mind...
05:01 not violence... even though there is
05:03 what they call... Jihad al Harb
05:05 which is, you know, a violent sort of struggle
05:10 sort of thing... but that's called
05:11 the lesser Jihad...
05:13 but the greater Jihad is
05:15 supposed to be the struggle against self...
05:16 the desire
05:18 to see a person fully submitted to God
05:21 and doing righteous works... and so... again...
05:24 when we talk about what our Center is all about,
05:28 we're about building these bridges
05:30 and reminding our Muslim brothers and sisters
05:33 that even at the core of their own religion,
05:35 is this understanding that God wants
05:38 us to submit to Him... in all ways...
05:40 Yes... now this is a question that I've really wondered about,
05:45 Allah and Jehovah... when the Muslims pray to Allah,
05:54 are they praying to the same...
05:56 is their concept of Allah...
05:58 the same as ours... of Jehovah?
06:00 You know... there are many... again...
06:05 many views within Christianity
06:07 as to... whether or not it is the same God
06:10 you know... but of course... the word "Allah"
06:13 basically means... God... in Arabic...
06:15 if you were an Arabic-Christian for instance
06:18 then you are praying to God, you're praying to Allah...
06:22 and, of course, when we look at the origins of Islam...
06:25 we do know that Islam came to birth
06:28 in a Christian context... and so, when Muhammad
06:31 wrote about Allah... even though we may not agree
06:34 with everything that he wrote, we do know that he was
06:38 writing about the same God that he believed
06:41 Christians and Jews worshipped, and so, I would say,
06:45 unequivocally... when we look at
06:47 the concept of Allah
06:48 that Muslims believe that they are praying to the same God
06:52 as Christians and Jews... but, of course,
06:55 just as the same as when we look at the variety
06:59 of ways in which God is understood
07:01 in Christianity... we see that there may be
07:04 some ways that even I,
07:06 as an Adventist Christian,
07:07 may look at the Muslim's understanding of God
07:09 and say, "Well, I don't understand it fully
07:11 that way... but just because I understand Him
07:13 differently... does not make Him
07:15 a different God... for instance...
07:17 you could even look amongst Christians...
07:18 there are some Christians who believe
07:20 that God wants to burn people forever and ever and ever...
07:23 and ever... I don't believe that... you know
07:25 but I'm not going to say, to my Baptist Brother
07:28 or my Catholic Brother, that the God that you pray to
07:32 is not the same God that I pray to...
07:34 because you... sort of... mis...
07:36 or I don't want to use the word "misinterpret"
07:38 but you don't understand Him
07:41 in the same way that I understand Him...
07:43 you know... and so... again... when we look at
07:46 the conversation that Jesus has with the Woman at the well...
07:50 in John Chapter 4... and she wanted to get into
07:53 a debate... over... you know...
07:55 who Got is... sort of thing and
07:56 God's response to her is "God is free... and He seeks
07:59 those who worship Him in Spirit and in Truth... "
08:02 Hmmm... hmmm... and so I think
08:04 from a Biblical perspective, when we look at
08:07 who God is... we look at a God who is
08:10 broad enough to be known...
08:11 even by different names
08:12 for instance in the Bible... we see the father-in-law
08:15 of Moses, Jethro, he's called the
08:18 Priest of El Elyon of the Most High God...
08:22 and there are many, many names different names for God
08:25 in Scripture but just because we may see
08:27 El Shaddai and El Elyon and El Rahi... and El Sabaoth,
08:32 it doesn't necessarily mean
08:34 that these are different Gods... and so, I would say,
08:38 in a nutshell... I do believe that a faithful Muslim
08:41 who is praying to God with the knowledge
08:44 that he or she knows...
08:46 will be heard by the same God
08:49 who I pray to... even though, their understanding
08:52 of truth may be different than mine...
08:54 Which doesn't mean that you're telling Christians
08:56 to now refer to God as Allah... correct...
08:59 Oh no... not at all... not at all...
09:01 I just want to make that clear because we'll start getting
09:04 e- mails and things from viewers saying,
09:06 "They're saying to pray to Allah... "
09:08 and that's not what you're saying,
09:09 so let's just make sure that that is truly understood
09:12 that you are not saying, "Start praying to Allah"
09:15 that is not what you're saying, correct, Dr. Burton?
09:18 Not at all... not at all... but, of course,
09:20 if you are an Arabic person, you've always been
09:21 praying to Allah, you know,
09:22 but, of course, when we look at even the names for God,
09:26 Hmmm... hmmm... our English word "God" is from
09:29 the German "Gott" and you go deeper into
09:32 Anglo-Saxon religion, we see "Gott"
09:35 was the name for "Water God" Hmmm...
09:38 so, that is not the same name as Yahweh
09:41 and when we look even at Scripture
09:44 when we read about the Baals that the Canaanites bowed
09:49 down to... but the word "Baal"
09:51 "al" again as I say the "L" root same "L" root
09:55 and there's even a text that refers to God as Baal...
09:59 you know... and so... again... we are using the words
10:03 we are confined as humans to language
10:05 to describe a God who is really indescribable...
10:09 Hmmm... and if we think about the
10:11 conversation that God has with Moses
10:13 in Exodus Chapter 3... and He sends Moses to liberate
10:18 the people... and Moses asked God for His name
10:20 and God simply responded
10:22 as a matter-of-fact He used some Hebrew here
10:24 He used the Hebrew term "ehyeh aser ehyeh"
10:27 which basically means... I am what I am...
10:29 I have been what I have been, I shall be what I shall be...
10:32 in other words He's basically saying...
10:34 I am really beyond comprehension and all human attempts
10:38 to understand me are just human attempts...
10:41 Hmmm... and so... when we look at how
10:44 God deals with humanity, God reaches us where we are...
10:48 and I believe that revelation He pulls us...
10:51 but I think it's a mistake though
10:52 to get into a conversation
10:54 that says... that if we refer to God
10:57 with an English name... then He hears us...
10:59 but if we use some Arabic name, then He doesn't hear us...
11:02 Hmmm... because then we're basically
11:04 saying that Arab-speakers will have to learn English
11:06 before they can approach God...
11:08 Okay... okay... thank you...
11:10 what is the concept of the Muslim... regarding Jesus Christ
11:15 where do they put Him in their theology?
11:18 Now, of course, the whole discussion
11:21 of Jesus is central to Muslim theology...
11:25 particularly as it relates to
11:27 Adventists- or Christian-Muslim relations...
11:30 because we acknowledge from the outset
11:33 that the Muslim understanding of Jesus
11:36 particularly when it comes to His divinity...
11:38 it's not the same as the Christian understanding
11:40 of Jesus... however... How so... how so?
11:44 Well, the whole idea that Jesus is God
11:47 that Jesus is even the Son of God...
11:50 is apparent to most Muslims,
11:53 and one of the reasons being
11:55 is that the concept of Trinity, that Muhammad appeared
12:00 to be wrestling with... is one that saw
12:03 God the Father, Mary and Jesus, and so it was almost like
12:08 God has sexual relations with a human being
12:12 in order to give birth to Jesus...
12:14 and in building relationships with Muslims...
12:17 this is one of the first discussions
12:21 that we usually have in dispelling this myth...
12:25 that it was basically God, Mary and Jesus...
12:29 but, however, having said that, when we look at the Koran...
12:33 we see that Jesus is portrayed in a very positive way...
12:37 for instance... the Koran speaks about
12:39 Jesus' virgin birth...
12:41 He is the only person that
12:43 doesn't have earthly parents
12:46 according to the Koran... the Koran also speaks about
12:49 Jesus conducting miracles
12:51 from the cradle to the grave, you know...
12:53 healing the sick and raising the dead...
12:55 the Koran speaks about Jesus as the only One
12:58 who has not sinned... Hmmm...
13:00 it speaks about Jesus, right now,
13:01 as sitting at the right hand of God
13:02 and it speaks about the Second Coming
13:04 all of these are important teachings in the Koran
13:07 in fact, when we look at the way in which the Koran
13:10 describes Jesus... it's talks about Him as
13:13 The Word of God the KALIMET ALLAH
13:17 He is also the Spirit of God the RUH ALLAH
13:21 He is also the Light of God the Nur Allah
13:24 and so, there are a number of statements
13:27 that are made in the Koran that are made about no other
13:30 person in the Koran...
13:31 that leaves me to conclude that at least
13:35 in the mind of Muhammad, there was no one
13:38 greater than Jesus, who has walked the face
13:42 of this earth... and so even though they may not
13:44 go as far as Christians in claiming and acknowledging
13:48 the divinity of Christ, He is definitely
13:51 an esteemed person and there is none
13:54 who can compare with Him even from a Koranic perspective.
13:57 So, that's really interesting,
13:59 so, that's one of the things that... in reaching
14:03 our Muslim brothers and sisters
14:05 we can use a bit of their concept of Christ
14:09 because He is in the Koran, and then expand on that...
14:13 as we witness to them about Jesus Christ...
14:17 which is the most important thing...
14:19 I mean... that's what it's all about...
14:21 Right... most definitely and again...
14:23 it's something that we have in common
14:26 that Jesus of the Bible and of course
14:29 the Koran affirms the Bible, it speaks about the
14:34 the Tawrat and the Injil and the Zabur...
14:36 the Tawrat the Old Testament, the Zabur the Psalms
14:41 and the Injil the New Testament
14:43 it speaks about this and even as we discuss
14:47 with our Muslim brothers and sisters
14:50 it's important to affirm that which has been shared
14:54 in the Koran... but also inviting them to
14:59 look at other revelation because Muhammad
15:04 just does refers to the Bible as Divine Revelation
15:07 and so... looking at other revelation
15:09 other teachings about
15:11 who they refer to as
15:13 Isa al-Masih... and by-the-way Isa that's Jesus...
15:16 al-Masih the Messiah...
15:18 the Koran calls Jesus the Messiah...
15:20 Really? I never knew
15:23 that Jesus was held in high esteem in the Koran
15:28 but He's still looked at as a prophet and not God, correct?
15:32 Right... right... So what has to be done then
15:37 if I'm witnessing... and we're going to
15:40 wind this up a bit... if I'm witnessing
15:42 to a Muslim brother or sister, how would I begin that
15:47 that whole process... what would be the first step
15:52 in witnessing as a Christian and as an
15:54 Adventist Christian to a Muslim?
15:56 Well, I would suggest that one stays away from debate...
16:01 you know... because what I found is...
16:03 that in trying to debate one's understanding of truth
16:07 against another understanding of truth...
16:09 we usually find that people dig deeper
16:11 into what they believe
16:13 and so, I believe that what has been revealed
16:17 in the Koran is enough to basically help a person
16:21 to get a taste to know more...
16:23 and so the best approach is really
16:26 digging deep into what the Koran has to say
16:29 about Jesus and say,
16:30 "Okay, do you want to know more?"
16:32 there's the gospel over here that has a fuller picture
16:37 and allowing our Muslim brothers and sisters
16:40 to basically... on their own... investigate what
16:44 the Scriptures have to say...
16:45 I had a real experience some years ago
16:49 I was in Greece and I met some people from Saudi Arabia...
16:54 and we started talking one evening
16:56 they found that I was a Christian Minister...
16:59 and every day at breakfast we started talking
17:02 about the books... the Koran and the Bible
17:05 and I was sharing with them some stories about
17:07 people they held dear, about Adam and Noah...
17:10 and they said, "Wow, we didn't know that... "
17:12 and so... anyway I had an English copy of the Bible...
17:15 I was supposed to be teaching Greek in Greece,
17:16 but I had an English Bible with me...
17:19 and so I gave them the English Bible
17:21 and every evening we were going to read...
17:24 and we had such rich conversations
17:25 in the morning... and when they came down...
17:27 they said, "We didn't know about David... "
17:29 "We didn't know this about Solomon... "
17:30 and we had such rich conversations... okay and so...
17:34 I wasn't trying to pressure them
17:36 to change their way of thinking, but... as the Bible says,
17:39 "By beholding... we become changed... "
17:41 Yes... Sometimes, I think...
17:44 we're trying to do... what only the Spirit of God can do...
17:47 and basically... just talking about those things...
17:50 we have in common... and if indeed
17:52 a person has an even mind, to know and love God,
17:56 I believe that the Spirit does the rest...
17:59 Thank you... thank you... you know...
18:01 is there a place in the Koran about the Holy Spirit?
18:05 What role does the Holy Spirit play in the Koran... if any?
18:10 Well now... actually the Spirit of God
18:14 does work to convict hearts... and has a very similar role
18:19 actually to what we find in Scripture...
18:21 but again... from a personification perspective
18:26 and this is another bridge over here
18:28 we see that Jesus is called the Ruh-Allah, the Spirit of God
18:33 and so the word that Jesus does, He does... by the Spirit of God,
18:37 in fact... the Koran speaks about Jesus as being
18:41 the only one who God has endowed with the Holy Spirit...
18:46 and so He really plays a similar role
18:50 to what we see in Scripture...
18:51 Okay, you know,
18:54 I had not
18:55 been aware of... and this is so enlightening...
18:59 and I'm sure for the viewers as well...
19:01 because... we often see... our Muslim brothers and sisters
19:06 the sisters in the burkas and all that
19:08 and just... you know... we have no clue
19:10 about what they believe in... and if you don't know...
19:13 what someone else believes in, you cannot...
19:17 you can't share what you believe in...
19:21 without to me having some kind of foundation...
19:24 in knowing what they believe in, so I think it's really important
19:29 to not get involved in controversy...
19:33 but to really share... the love of Jesus...
19:37 and you have three core principles...
19:39 that CAMR-OU has... would you share those with us
19:43 and tell us a little bit about that...
19:45 Yes, our Three-Core Principles, Dr. Lewis,
19:48 are Loving,
19:50 Learning,
19:51 Sharing...
19:53 let me start with Learning first...
19:55 By learning... I mean... learning about Islam
19:59 their beliefs, their practices, their culture...
20:03 because it's going to be very difficult to interact
20:07 if we don't know who
20:10 the people are with whom we want to interact...
20:13 and so Learning is having a willingness
20:16 to open our ears and to listen to what they believe
20:21 now, when it comes to Sharing, sorry to Loving...
20:25 that's a principle in which we want to be intentional
20:29 about forming relations... and so, for instance,
20:32 we have a Program that we'll be starting this week
20:35 where we'll be training ministers
20:36 all across the North American Division
20:39 and one of the components of that Program...
20:41 in addition to the ministers receiving instruction
20:44 from various people... from our universities
20:47 across North America, and the General Conference...
20:49 they are also going to have to have Programs
20:52 in their Church where they invite Muslims
20:56 in their Communities... to participate...
20:59 not necessarily as spectators... but also as Presenters...
21:03 for instance... one of the ideas that we're given is...
21:07 a Cooking Class... and we know that
21:10 Adventists and Muslims have a number of things in common
21:13 when it comes to diet... Ah...
21:15 and so could there be some Muslims women in the Community
21:18 who could have some recipes that they can share...
21:21 you know... and then when we think at the whole idea
21:24 of "Dress Reform" there are a whole lot of things
21:28 that we can learn... and share
21:30 when it comes to that aspect
21:31 okay, so, when it comes to sharing... excuse me...
21:36 I'm getting sort of tongue twisted here...
21:38 so, when it comes to "Loving" this is a part of what we do...
21:41 and then also... next year... I'm trying to take a group
21:45 from Oakland University... to a Muslim area in Africa
21:49 where we can do some humanitarian work...
21:51 and the idea was maybe dig a well...
21:53 or build an orphanage or something
21:56 and we were also going to do some preaching...
21:59 and so... some of the preaching will be
22:02 using texts from the Koran that corresponds with
22:06 texts from Scripture... Is that a dangerous thing
22:10 to go over to other countries and preach...
22:13 and kind of proselytize is that not putting
22:17 your lives in danger or no...? Well, no... I mean... again...
22:22 it's how one shares... it's how one shares...
22:25 and I believe that the gospel is about Jesus Christ
22:30 and when one encounters Jesus, one is exposed to
22:35 a new and broad way of life...
22:38 and so, there are some places,
22:40 that, if you went and even opened up a Bible...
22:44 you could get killed... yes... Yes... yes...
22:47 but there are many Nations where there is openness...
22:51 there's a lot of openness... to share and to learn...
22:56 and again... I believe that the best drawing card
23:01 to the Kingdom... is a life that's filled
23:04 with the love of God...
23:05 and when your life is filled with the love of God,
23:08 I think, it's almost impossible for one who loves God...
23:13 to turn their back on it... you know, Jesus said,
23:16 "If I be lifted up... I'll draw all people unto me"
23:19 Yes... and I believe that even as
23:21 we lift Christ up... then people will understand that
23:25 there is indeed a better way...
23:27 and that way is found in the God of Love...
23:31 who has revealed Himself... through His Son... Jesus Christ.
23:34 That is wonderful... so, I know that in an earlier
23:39 conversation... that you and I had...
23:41 you had said that in many of these African countries...
23:44 that there are... that there are pockets
23:50 of Christianity... and Islam...
23:52 our Schools have...
23:54 Islamic students in Adventist Schools...
23:58 Oh yes... oh yes... and that was an interesting
24:01 point to me too... because I hadn't...
24:04 my conception was that...
24:07 and I'm sure many of the viewers think too...
24:11 that a lot of these Muslims are not open to
24:14 letting their children know about Christianity...
24:18 but... what you said... is kind of contradictory to that
24:22 which is interesting...
24:23 Yes, you know that in fact I was in Tanzania...
24:27 some years ago... and I preached at the
24:30 University of Arusha... did some lectures over there...
24:32 and it's an interesting
24:35 thing to see that even in the Choirs,
24:37 you know, the Muslim students in the Choirs...
24:40 were singing... some of the same songs
24:42 that Choirs sing over here...
24:44 and our School in Nigeria... a large percentage of the
24:48 student body is Muslim... and of course, again,
24:53 we're talking about building relationships
24:55 between people... because oft times when we
24:58 stress the differences... "I'm Muslim... you're Christian"
25:03 or "You're Christian... I'm Muslim" et cetera...
25:04 when you stress those differences...
25:09 then... all of a sudden... for most people...
25:12 the barrier goes up... but then...
25:14 there is a common denominator...
25:16 for people who may want to be educated...
25:18 okay... the School offers Education...
25:20 Hmmm... hmmm... and as we offer the education
25:22 then people... who may be of different faiths
25:25 have an opportunity
25:26 to come together... and in that setting...
25:30 exchange ideas and just see how God works...
25:34 and God has been working... in very, very powerful ways...
25:37 in those Centers, you know, and so...
25:40 the whole idea is to basically... again...
25:43 show the love of Christ
25:46 and as that happens... as that happens...
25:49 then the unity that God wants for all people
25:53 is put on the front burners as it were...
25:56 and then people don't necessarily...
25:58 feel that coming to a School which may have
26:02 a different spiritual ethos than you have
26:06 is something that's dangerous and I think
26:09 that's one of the first things that we have to learn
26:11 when thinking about even how we share Christ...
26:14 you know... having that safe place...
26:17 that people can come... people can come, you know,
26:21 and oft times... I feel that people don't come
26:25 to our institutions...
26:26 don't come to our places of worship...
26:29 because we have sort of set these rules so high
26:32 and set the parameters so severe...
26:35 that they feel that they're not welcome...
26:38 Yes... yes... but if we have our hands open
26:41 like Christ has His hands open, then... people will come...
26:44 and it's not saying that everyone is going to stay...
26:47 but we do know that many who come...
26:50 do like what they see... and decide that
26:52 this is the way in which their spiritual life
26:55 is going to go from this point...
26:56 Dr. Burton... you have been
26:58 such a blessing today... thank you so much
27:00 for sharing this information with us...
27:03 you know... we have to remember...
27:05 that we must spread the gospel of the kingdom
27:09 to all the world... and then... the end will come...
27:13 there's no group that should remain untouched
27:16 by the Word... the Lord would have us go
27:19 into all the world... sharing His love with everyone,
27:23 our Muslim brothers and sisters need to see the love of Jesus
27:27 through us... we know that...
27:29 if we share Jesus... Jesus said...
27:32 "If I be lifted up... I will draw all men to me... "
27:35 and so... that's what we must do...
27:37 we must go... in a non-controversial way...
27:41 showing love and caring and concern...
27:44 and really lifting up the name of Jesus...
27:47 Thanks for being with us on Urban Report...
27:50 we'll see you next time... and remember...
27:54 it just wouldn't be the same... without you...


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Revised 2015-04-29