Participants: Yvonne Lewis (Host), Dr. Keith Burton
Series Code: UBR
Program Code: UBR000008
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00:01 Have you ever wondered what Muslims believe...
00:03 or how are Muslims and Christians different... 00:06 well stay tuned... 00:08 My name is Yvonne Lewis and you're watching 00:10 Urban Report... 00:33 Welcome to Urban Report... today my first guest 00:37 is Dr. Keith Burton, Coordinator of the Center for 00:41 Adventist-Muslim relations at Oakwood University... 00:44 or CAMR-OU for short... welcome to Urban Report 00:48 Dr. Burton... 00:49 It's good to be here... 00:51 Thank you... thank you for coming... 00:53 we really appreciate your being here... 00:56 First of all... tell us about CAMR-OU... 01:00 what actually do you do there? what is it? 01:03 What is that Center for Adventist-Muslim relations? 01:08 Well, CAMR-OU exists to foster positive relationships 01:12 between Muslims and Christians and we're here really 01:15 to build bridges... we know that Islam is 01:18 one of the world's major religions... 01:20 with, over 1.5 billion members 01:24 in the different factions, 01:27 and we're basically here to 01:30 just try to find ways in which we can work together 01:33 and to share the love of Christ in ways in which I believe 01:38 will please God... Amen... 01:40 because I was going to say... why is it important... 01:43 why do you think it's important for us to work together? 01:47 Well, we live in an age where... particularly in the West 01:51 many Muslims have been stigmatized 01:54 and in fact... many people have been looking 01:56 at Islam in negative ways 01:57 and many of those who have negative things to say 02:00 about Islam... profess to be Christian... 02:04 and as Adventist Christians, we basically, just want to show 02:09 our brothers and sisters that even though we may not 02:12 understand "Truth" the same way, that we do know that 02:15 we have some things in common 02:18 and that is... that the beliefs are in the 02:22 Creator God... and also belief that 02:26 there is a Savior who makes a difference 02:31 so, you know, and even though 02:33 we may have different ways of looking at Jesus... 02:37 for instance... He's definitely an important figure 02:41 in both Faiths... and so, 02:42 we're trying to find a way... 02:45 to put flesh on what we teach 02:48 so that our Muslim brothers and sisters... 02:50 can know the Christ that we say we believe in... 02:53 Oh, you know, this is interesting to me because 02:56 you often see... Muslims in the street 02:59 and, of course, there are different types of Muslims 03:01 and we can talk about that... but... 03:04 in Nation of Islam, Sufi and all that... 03:06 but we never really... at least... I've never really 03:11 investigated Islam that deeply, 03:14 to know... what do they believe in... 03:17 first of all... and then how does that compare 03:20 with what Christians believe in. 03:22 So, what do Muslims believe in, first of all? 03:26 Well, of course... asking that question is almost 03:31 like asking what Christians believe in... 03:33 because there are many, many, 03:34 different factions of Christianity 03:36 but, of course, most Muslims will basically agree 03:39 to what we call the five pillars... 03:41 and that first of all is a confession that 03:44 there is one God... 03:46 the second belief is that a faithful person 03:50 needs to pray 5 times a day at assigned times... 03:53 that there needs to be a time set aside each year 03:57 for fasting... that persons need to give alms 04:01 or at least give charity to others in the Community... 04:04 and finally... it's believed that every faithful Muslim 04:08 who has the means... should take a pilgrimage 04:12 at least once in his or her lifetime... 04:14 to Mecca... there is also a belief 04:17 by some folks... the 6th pillar... 04:20 not all agree on this... in the concept of Jihad 04:24 now, of course, when we used to think about Jihad 04:27 at least in our Western, modern sensibilities... 04:30 we think about those who strap on bombs on themselves 04:34 you know, and blow people up... 04:36 Yes... yes... but, of course, in the Koran 04:40 we read about this concept of Jihad 04:42 and the Jihad al-Akbar which is the greater Jihad 04:46 is actually the struggle against self... 04:49 you know... the struggle against the tendencies 04:52 the struggle against sin... and Oh... 04:54 when a faithful Muslim talks about Jihad... 04:58 this is what... he or she has in mind... 05:01 not violence... even though there is 05:03 what they call... Jihad al Harb 05:05 which is, you know, a violent sort of struggle 05:10 sort of thing... but that's called 05:11 the lesser Jihad... 05:13 but the greater Jihad is 05:15 supposed to be the struggle against self... 05:16 the desire 05:18 to see a person fully submitted to God 05:21 and doing righteous works... and so... again... 05:24 when we talk about what our Center is all about, 05:28 we're about building these bridges 05:30 and reminding our Muslim brothers and sisters 05:33 that even at the core of their own religion, 05:35 is this understanding that God wants 05:38 us to submit to Him... in all ways... 05:40 Yes... now this is a question that I've really wondered about, 05:45 Allah and Jehovah... when the Muslims pray to Allah, 05:54 are they praying to the same... 05:56 is their concept of Allah... 05:58 the same as ours... of Jehovah? 06:00 You know... there are many... again... 06:05 many views within Christianity 06:07 as to... whether or not it is the same God 06:10 you know... but of course... the word "Allah" 06:13 basically means... God... in Arabic... 06:15 if you were an Arabic-Christian for instance 06:18 then you are praying to God, you're praying to Allah... 06:22 and, of course, when we look at the origins of Islam... 06:25 we do know that Islam came to birth 06:28 in a Christian context... and so, when Muhammad 06:31 wrote about Allah... even though we may not agree 06:34 with everything that he wrote, we do know that he was 06:38 writing about the same God that he believed 06:41 Christians and Jews worshipped, and so, I would say, 06:45 unequivocally... when we look at 06:47 the concept of Allah 06:48 that Muslims believe that they are praying to the same God 06:52 as Christians and Jews... but, of course, 06:55 just as the same as when we look at the variety 06:59 of ways in which God is understood 07:01 in Christianity... we see that there may be 07:04 some ways that even I, 07:06 as an Adventist Christian, 07:07 may look at the Muslim's understanding of God 07:09 and say, "Well, I don't understand it fully 07:11 that way... but just because I understand Him 07:13 differently... does not make Him 07:15 a different God... for instance... 07:17 you could even look amongst Christians... 07:18 there are some Christians who believe 07:20 that God wants to burn people forever and ever and ever... 07:23 and ever... I don't believe that... you know 07:25 but I'm not going to say, to my Baptist Brother 07:28 or my Catholic Brother, that the God that you pray to 07:32 is not the same God that I pray to... 07:34 because you... sort of... mis... 07:36 or I don't want to use the word "misinterpret" 07:38 but you don't understand Him 07:41 in the same way that I understand Him... 07:43 you know... and so... again... when we look at 07:46 the conversation that Jesus has with the Woman at the well... 07:50 in John Chapter 4... and she wanted to get into 07:53 a debate... over... you know... 07:55 who Got is... sort of thing and 07:56 God's response to her is "God is free... and He seeks 07:59 those who worship Him in Spirit and in Truth... " 08:02 Hmmm... hmmm... and so I think 08:04 from a Biblical perspective, when we look at 08:07 who God is... we look at a God who is 08:10 broad enough to be known... 08:11 even by different names 08:12 for instance in the Bible... we see the father-in-law 08:15 of Moses, Jethro, he's called the 08:18 Priest of El Elyon of the Most High God... 08:22 and there are many, many names different names for God 08:25 in Scripture but just because we may see 08:27 El Shaddai and El Elyon and El Rahi... and El Sabaoth, 08:32 it doesn't necessarily mean 08:34 that these are different Gods... and so, I would say, 08:38 in a nutshell... I do believe that a faithful Muslim 08:41 who is praying to God with the knowledge 08:44 that he or she knows... 08:46 will be heard by the same God 08:49 who I pray to... even though, their understanding 08:52 of truth may be different than mine... 08:54 Which doesn't mean that you're telling Christians 08:56 to now refer to God as Allah... correct... 08:59 Oh no... not at all... not at all... 09:01 I just want to make that clear because we'll start getting 09:04 e- mails and things from viewers saying, 09:06 "They're saying to pray to Allah... " 09:08 and that's not what you're saying, 09:09 so let's just make sure that that is truly understood 09:12 that you are not saying, "Start praying to Allah" 09:15 that is not what you're saying, correct, Dr. Burton? 09:18 Not at all... not at all... but, of course, 09:20 if you are an Arabic person, you've always been 09:21 praying to Allah, you know, 09:22 but, of course, when we look at even the names for God, 09:26 Hmmm... hmmm... our English word "God" is from 09:29 the German "Gott" and you go deeper into 09:32 Anglo-Saxon religion, we see "Gott" 09:35 was the name for "Water God" Hmmm... 09:38 so, that is not the same name as Yahweh 09:41 and when we look even at Scripture 09:44 when we read about the Baals that the Canaanites bowed 09:49 down to... but the word "Baal" 09:51 "al" again as I say the "L" root same "L" root 09:55 and there's even a text that refers to God as Baal... 09:59 you know... and so... again... we are using the words 10:03 we are confined as humans to language 10:05 to describe a God who is really indescribable... 10:09 Hmmm... and if we think about the 10:11 conversation that God has with Moses 10:13 in Exodus Chapter 3... and He sends Moses to liberate 10:18 the people... and Moses asked God for His name 10:20 and God simply responded 10:22 as a matter-of-fact He used some Hebrew here 10:24 He used the Hebrew term "ehyeh aser ehyeh" 10:27 which basically means... I am what I am... 10:29 I have been what I have been, I shall be what I shall be... 10:32 in other words He's basically saying... 10:34 I am really beyond comprehension and all human attempts 10:38 to understand me are just human attempts... 10:41 Hmmm... and so... when we look at how 10:44 God deals with humanity, God reaches us where we are... 10:48 and I believe that revelation He pulls us... 10:51 but I think it's a mistake though 10:52 to get into a conversation 10:54 that says... that if we refer to God 10:57 with an English name... then He hears us... 10:59 but if we use some Arabic name, then He doesn't hear us... 11:02 Hmmm... because then we're basically 11:04 saying that Arab-speakers will have to learn English 11:06 before they can approach God... 11:08 Okay... okay... thank you... 11:10 what is the concept of the Muslim... regarding Jesus Christ 11:15 where do they put Him in their theology? 11:18 Now, of course, the whole discussion 11:21 of Jesus is central to Muslim theology... 11:25 particularly as it relates to 11:27 Adventists- or Christian-Muslim relations... 11:30 because we acknowledge from the outset 11:33 that the Muslim understanding of Jesus 11:36 particularly when it comes to His divinity... 11:38 it's not the same as the Christian understanding 11:40 of Jesus... however... How so... how so? 11:44 Well, the whole idea that Jesus is God 11:47 that Jesus is even the Son of God... 11:50 is apparent to most Muslims, 11:53 and one of the reasons being 11:55 is that the concept of Trinity, that Muhammad appeared 12:00 to be wrestling with... is one that saw 12:03 God the Father, Mary and Jesus, and so it was almost like 12:08 God has sexual relations with a human being 12:12 in order to give birth to Jesus... 12:14 and in building relationships with Muslims... 12:17 this is one of the first discussions 12:21 that we usually have in dispelling this myth... 12:25 that it was basically God, Mary and Jesus... 12:29 but, however, having said that, when we look at the Koran... 12:33 we see that Jesus is portrayed in a very positive way... 12:37 for instance... the Koran speaks about 12:39 Jesus' virgin birth... 12:41 He is the only person that 12:43 doesn't have earthly parents 12:46 according to the Koran... the Koran also speaks about 12:49 Jesus conducting miracles 12:51 from the cradle to the grave, you know... 12:53 healing the sick and raising the dead... 12:55 the Koran speaks about Jesus as the only One 12:58 who has not sinned... Hmmm... 13:00 it speaks about Jesus, right now, 13:01 as sitting at the right hand of God 13:02 and it speaks about the Second Coming 13:04 all of these are important teachings in the Koran 13:07 in fact, when we look at the way in which the Koran 13:10 describes Jesus... it's talks about Him as 13:13 The Word of God the KALIMET ALLAH 13:17 He is also the Spirit of God the RUH ALLAH 13:21 He is also the Light of God the Nur Allah 13:24 and so, there are a number of statements 13:27 that are made in the Koran that are made about no other 13:30 person in the Koran... 13:31 that leaves me to conclude that at least 13:35 in the mind of Muhammad, there was no one 13:38 greater than Jesus, who has walked the face 13:42 of this earth... and so even though they may not 13:44 go as far as Christians in claiming and acknowledging 13:48 the divinity of Christ, He is definitely 13:51 an esteemed person and there is none 13:54 who can compare with Him even from a Koranic perspective. 13:57 So, that's really interesting, 13:59 so, that's one of the things that... in reaching 14:03 our Muslim brothers and sisters 14:05 we can use a bit of their concept of Christ 14:09 because He is in the Koran, and then expand on that... 14:13 as we witness to them about Jesus Christ... 14:17 which is the most important thing... 14:19 I mean... that's what it's all about... 14:21 Right... most definitely and again... 14:23 it's something that we have in common 14:26 that Jesus of the Bible and of course 14:29 the Koran affirms the Bible, it speaks about the 14:34 the Tawrat and the Injil and the Zabur... 14:36 the Tawrat the Old Testament, the Zabur the Psalms 14:41 and the Injil the New Testament 14:43 it speaks about this and even as we discuss 14:47 with our Muslim brothers and sisters 14:50 it's important to affirm that which has been shared 14:54 in the Koran... but also inviting them to 14:59 look at other revelation because Muhammad 15:04 just does refers to the Bible as Divine Revelation 15:07 and so... looking at other revelation 15:09 other teachings about 15:11 who they refer to as 15:13 Isa al-Masih... and by-the-way Isa that's Jesus... 15:16 al-Masih the Messiah... 15:18 the Koran calls Jesus the Messiah... 15:20 Really? I never knew 15:23 that Jesus was held in high esteem in the Koran 15:28 but He's still looked at as a prophet and not God, correct? 15:32 Right... right... So what has to be done then 15:37 if I'm witnessing... and we're going to 15:40 wind this up a bit... if I'm witnessing 15:42 to a Muslim brother or sister, how would I begin that 15:47 that whole process... what would be the first step 15:52 in witnessing as a Christian and as an 15:54 Adventist Christian to a Muslim? 15:56 Well, I would suggest that one stays away from debate... 16:01 you know... because what I found is... 16:03 that in trying to debate one's understanding of truth 16:07 against another understanding of truth... 16:09 we usually find that people dig deeper 16:11 into what they believe 16:13 and so, I believe that what has been revealed 16:17 in the Koran is enough to basically help a person 16:21 to get a taste to know more... 16:23 and so the best approach is really 16:26 digging deep into what the Koran has to say 16:29 about Jesus and say, 16:30 "Okay, do you want to know more?" 16:32 there's the gospel over here that has a fuller picture 16:37 and allowing our Muslim brothers and sisters 16:40 to basically... on their own... investigate what 16:44 the Scriptures have to say... 16:45 I had a real experience some years ago 16:49 I was in Greece and I met some people from Saudi Arabia... 16:54 and we started talking one evening 16:56 they found that I was a Christian Minister... 16:59 and every day at breakfast we started talking 17:02 about the books... the Koran and the Bible 17:05 and I was sharing with them some stories about 17:07 people they held dear, about Adam and Noah... 17:10 and they said, "Wow, we didn't know that... " 17:12 and so... anyway I had an English copy of the Bible... 17:15 I was supposed to be teaching Greek in Greece, 17:16 but I had an English Bible with me... 17:19 and so I gave them the English Bible 17:21 and every evening we were going to read... 17:24 and we had such rich conversations 17:25 in the morning... and when they came down... 17:27 they said, "We didn't know about David... " 17:29 "We didn't know this about Solomon... " 17:30 and we had such rich conversations... okay and so... 17:34 I wasn't trying to pressure them 17:36 to change their way of thinking, but... as the Bible says, 17:39 "By beholding... we become changed... " 17:41 Yes... Sometimes, I think... 17:44 we're trying to do... what only the Spirit of God can do... 17:47 and basically... just talking about those things... 17:50 we have in common... and if indeed 17:52 a person has an even mind, to know and love God, 17:56 I believe that the Spirit does the rest... 17:59 Thank you... thank you... you know... 18:01 is there a place in the Koran about the Holy Spirit? 18:05 What role does the Holy Spirit play in the Koran... if any? 18:10 Well now... actually the Spirit of God 18:14 does work to convict hearts... and has a very similar role 18:19 actually to what we find in Scripture... 18:21 but again... from a personification perspective 18:26 and this is another bridge over here 18:28 we see that Jesus is called the Ruh-Allah, the Spirit of God 18:33 and so the word that Jesus does, He does... by the Spirit of God, 18:37 in fact... the Koran speaks about Jesus as being 18:41 the only one who God has endowed with the Holy Spirit... 18:46 and so He really plays a similar role 18:50 to what we see in Scripture... 18:51 Okay, you know, 18:54 I had not 18:55 been aware of... and this is so enlightening... 18:59 and I'm sure for the viewers as well... 19:01 because... we often see... our Muslim brothers and sisters 19:06 the sisters in the burkas and all that 19:08 and just... you know... we have no clue 19:10 about what they believe in... and if you don't know... 19:13 what someone else believes in, you cannot... 19:17 you can't share what you believe in... 19:21 without to me having some kind of foundation... 19:24 in knowing what they believe in, so I think it's really important 19:29 to not get involved in controversy... 19:33 but to really share... the love of Jesus... 19:37 and you have three core principles... 19:39 that CAMR-OU has... would you share those with us 19:43 and tell us a little bit about that... 19:45 Yes, our Three-Core Principles, Dr. Lewis, 19:48 are Loving, 19:50 Learning, 19:51 Sharing... 19:53 let me start with Learning first... 19:55 By learning... I mean... learning about Islam 19:59 their beliefs, their practices, their culture... 20:03 because it's going to be very difficult to interact 20:07 if we don't know who 20:10 the people are with whom we want to interact... 20:13 and so Learning is having a willingness 20:16 to open our ears and to listen to what they believe 20:21 now, when it comes to Sharing, sorry to Loving... 20:25 that's a principle in which we want to be intentional 20:29 about forming relations... and so, for instance, 20:32 we have a Program that we'll be starting this week 20:35 where we'll be training ministers 20:36 all across the North American Division 20:39 and one of the components of that Program... 20:41 in addition to the ministers receiving instruction 20:44 from various people... from our universities 20:47 across North America, and the General Conference... 20:49 they are also going to have to have Programs 20:52 in their Church where they invite Muslims 20:56 in their Communities... to participate... 20:59 not necessarily as spectators... but also as Presenters... 21:03 for instance... one of the ideas that we're given is... 21:07 a Cooking Class... and we know that 21:10 Adventists and Muslims have a number of things in common 21:13 when it comes to diet... Ah... 21:15 and so could there be some Muslims women in the Community 21:18 who could have some recipes that they can share... 21:21 you know... and then when we think at the whole idea 21:24 of "Dress Reform" there are a whole lot of things 21:28 that we can learn... and share 21:30 when it comes to that aspect 21:31 okay, so, when it comes to sharing... excuse me... 21:36 I'm getting sort of tongue twisted here... 21:38 so, when it comes to "Loving" this is a part of what we do... 21:41 and then also... next year... I'm trying to take a group 21:45 from Oakland University... to a Muslim area in Africa 21:49 where we can do some humanitarian work... 21:51 and the idea was maybe dig a well... 21:53 or build an orphanage or something 21:56 and we were also going to do some preaching... 21:59 and so... some of the preaching will be 22:02 using texts from the Koran that corresponds with 22:06 texts from Scripture... Is that a dangerous thing 22:10 to go over to other countries and preach... 22:13 and kind of proselytize is that not putting 22:17 your lives in danger or no...? Well, no... I mean... again... 22:22 it's how one shares... it's how one shares... 22:25 and I believe that the gospel is about Jesus Christ 22:30 and when one encounters Jesus, one is exposed to 22:35 a new and broad way of life... 22:38 and so, there are some places, 22:40 that, if you went and even opened up a Bible... 22:44 you could get killed... yes... Yes... yes... 22:47 but there are many Nations where there is openness... 22:51 there's a lot of openness... to share and to learn... 22:56 and again... I believe that the best drawing card 23:01 to the Kingdom... is a life that's filled 23:04 with the love of God... 23:05 and when your life is filled with the love of God, 23:08 I think, it's almost impossible for one who loves God... 23:13 to turn their back on it... you know, Jesus said, 23:16 "If I be lifted up... I'll draw all people unto me" 23:19 Yes... and I believe that even as 23:21 we lift Christ up... then people will understand that 23:25 there is indeed a better way... 23:27 and that way is found in the God of Love... 23:31 who has revealed Himself... through His Son... Jesus Christ. 23:34 That is wonderful... so, I know that in an earlier 23:39 conversation... that you and I had... 23:41 you had said that in many of these African countries... 23:44 that there are... that there are pockets 23:50 of Christianity... and Islam... 23:52 our Schools have... 23:54 Islamic students in Adventist Schools... 23:58 Oh yes... oh yes... and that was an interesting 24:01 point to me too... because I hadn't... 24:04 my conception was that... 24:07 and I'm sure many of the viewers think too... 24:11 that a lot of these Muslims are not open to 24:14 letting their children know about Christianity... 24:18 but... what you said... is kind of contradictory to that 24:22 which is interesting... 24:23 Yes, you know that in fact I was in Tanzania... 24:27 some years ago... and I preached at the 24:30 University of Arusha... did some lectures over there... 24:32 and it's an interesting 24:35 thing to see that even in the Choirs, 24:37 you know, the Muslim students in the Choirs... 24:40 were singing... some of the same songs 24:42 that Choirs sing over here... 24:44 and our School in Nigeria... a large percentage of the 24:48 student body is Muslim... and of course, again, 24:53 we're talking about building relationships 24:55 between people... because oft times when we 24:58 stress the differences... "I'm Muslim... you're Christian" 25:03 or "You're Christian... I'm Muslim" et cetera... 25:04 when you stress those differences... 25:09 then... all of a sudden... for most people... 25:12 the barrier goes up... but then... 25:14 there is a common denominator... 25:16 for people who may want to be educated... 25:18 okay... the School offers Education... 25:20 Hmmm... hmmm... and as we offer the education 25:22 then people... who may be of different faiths 25:25 have an opportunity 25:26 to come together... and in that setting... 25:30 exchange ideas and just see how God works... 25:34 and God has been working... in very, very powerful ways... 25:37 in those Centers, you know, and so... 25:40 the whole idea is to basically... again... 25:43 show the love of Christ 25:46 and as that happens... as that happens... 25:49 then the unity that God wants for all people 25:53 is put on the front burners as it were... 25:56 and then people don't necessarily... 25:58 feel that coming to a School which may have 26:02 a different spiritual ethos than you have 26:06 is something that's dangerous and I think 26:09 that's one of the first things that we have to learn 26:11 when thinking about even how we share Christ... 26:14 you know... having that safe place... 26:17 that people can come... people can come, you know, 26:21 and oft times... I feel that people don't come 26:25 to our institutions... 26:26 don't come to our places of worship... 26:29 because we have sort of set these rules so high 26:32 and set the parameters so severe... 26:35 that they feel that they're not welcome... 26:38 Yes... yes... but if we have our hands open 26:41 like Christ has His hands open, then... people will come... 26:44 and it's not saying that everyone is going to stay... 26:47 but we do know that many who come... 26:50 do like what they see... and decide that 26:52 this is the way in which their spiritual life 26:55 is going to go from this point... 26:56 Dr. Burton... you have been 26:58 such a blessing today... thank you so much 27:00 for sharing this information with us... 27:03 you know... we have to remember... 27:05 that we must spread the gospel of the kingdom 27:09 to all the world... and then... the end will come... 27:13 there's no group that should remain untouched 27:16 by the Word... the Lord would have us go 27:19 into all the world... sharing His love with everyone, 27:23 our Muslim brothers and sisters need to see the love of Jesus 27:27 through us... we know that... 27:29 if we share Jesus... Jesus said... 27:32 "If I be lifted up... I will draw all men to me... " 27:35 and so... that's what we must do... 27:37 we must go... in a non-controversial way... 27:41 showing love and caring and concern... 27:44 and really lifting up the name of Jesus... 27:47 Thanks for being with us on Urban Report... 27:50 we'll see you next time... and remember... 27:54 it just wouldn't be the same... without you... |
Revised 2015-04-29