Participants: Yvonne Lewis (Host), Dr. Michael Murray
Series Code: UBR
Program Code: UBR000018
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00:01 Shhh... we've got secrets today stay tuned to find out
00:05 what the drug companies won't tell you... 00:07 and your doctor doesn't know... 00:09 My name is Yvonne Lewis and you're watching 00:11 Urban Report... 00:35 Hello and welcome to Urban Report... 00:38 Did you know that approximately 70 percent of patients 00:42 with chronic daily headaches suffer from 00:44 drug-induced headaches? Well, this fact and many others 00:49 are featured in the book written by today's guest 00:52 entitled, "What the Drug Companies 00:54 won't tell you and your Doctor Doesn't know" 00:57 I am so excited about today's guest... 01:00 he's the Country's most well-known Naturopathic Doctor 01:04 having authored more than 30 books 01:06 on Natural Medicine... his research into the health 01:10 benefits of proper nutrition is the foundation 01:13 for a best-selling line of vitamins and supplements 01:15 at Natural Factors... where he's the Director 01:18 of Product Development... he's a Graduate Faculty Member 01:22 and serves on the Board of Regents 01:24 of Bastyr University 01:26 in Seattle, Washington, it is my honor to introduce 01:29 my N.D. hero... Dr. Michael Murray. 01:32 Welcome to Urban Report Dr. Murray... yeah... 01:35 Thanks. I'm happy to be with you Yvonne... 01:39 It's so great to have you... 01:41 Likewise... 01:42 I have so many questions... your book... this book... 01:46 "What the Drug Companies won't tell you 01:48 and your Doctor Doesn't Know" is so full... 01:51 chock full of such valuable information... 01:54 what made you write this book... what compelled you to write it? 01:57 Well, I think we live in a Society 02:01 where people are looking for the quick fix 02:03 and we've all been manipulated by the 02:05 propaganda and marketing of the Drug Industry 02:09 and in this day and age... we're trying to treat many 02:12 health conditions that owe their origin to diet, lifestyle, 02:16 and our attitude with drugs and these bio-chemical Band Aids 02:20 in many cases end up causing more harm than good 02:23 and people need to know that there are safe and 02:26 effective natural ways to address 02:27 many of these common illnesses... 02:29 Absolutely... and just at the outset... 02:32 so that people don't misunderstand 02:35 because we have a lot of physicians who 02:37 watch this program as well... we are not bashing physicians 02:40 this is not that kind of program but what it is... 02:43 is... is an acknowledgement of the use of natural means 02:48 to acquire health... I mean... that is just... 02:51 it's such an important... important factor... 02:53 that we can use natural things to induce health... 02:57 what do you feel 02:59 is the most important thing 03:01 that the Drug Companies won't tell us... 03:03 Well, first of all... yeah, I want to echo your point 03:07 we've all had our lives touched in nearly miraculous ways 03:10 by advances in Medicine... 03:11 I don't want to throw the baby out... with the wash... 03:14 what I'm really speaking against is the irrational use of drugs 03:19 and the use of drugs first instead of utilizing the safer 03:23 and in many cases... 03:25 more effective natural approaches... 03:27 to answer your specific question the number one thing 03:29 that Drug Companies don't want us to realize is that 03:33 in dwelling within each of us is the tremendous capacity 03:36 to heal and to be healthy 03:38 and if we give our body 03:40 and our minds... the right sort of support... 03:43 we can achieve... tremendous health benefits... 03:46 Absolutely... 03:47 we believe that the way the body was created 03:51 it was created to heal itself... so when you cut yourself... 03:54 you immediately go into "healing mode" 03:56 the body goes into healing mode because it was created to do 04:01 just that... so, that's what natural medicine 04:03 is really about... and I like in your book... 04:07 the way you talk about... rational medicine... 04:10 explain that for us... if you would... 04:12 the rational approach to medicine... 04:14 Well, some of the drugs are completely irrational... 04:18 for example... if we look at the drugs 04:20 that are used in the treatment of osteoarthritis... 04:23 the major form of arthritis in America... 04:26 this condition is characterized by a wearing down 04:29 of the cartilage... and as we age... 04:32 many of us lose the ability to manufacture 04:34 sufficient levels of of cartilage components... 04:37 the drugs reduce the activity of enzymes that produce painful 04:43 and inflammatory compounds... what people don't realize 04:47 is that these same drugs also impair 04:49 the body's ability to manufacture 04:52 cartilage components so, use of these drugs is a 04:56 classic example of suppressing the symptoms 04:58 but actually promoting the progression of 05:01 the disease process... so, it's totally irrational 05:04 to use those drugs... instead, we should be utilizing 05:07 techniques and therapies that are designed 05:10 to give the body the necessary building blocks 05:13 to build... strong healthy cartilage... 05:16 that's what makes sense and the more we learn about 05:19 ourselves... the more we learn about nature... 05:22 the more we learn about our physiology and nutrition... 05:25 the more we realize how many things work... 05:29 that have been provided for us 05:31 to achieve health and maintain our health. 05:35 See, oh, see... this is just so... 05:38 you're just singing my song here... 05:41 because... if we give... again... if we provide the body 05:46 with the building blocks that it needs... 05:48 it's equipped to heal itself... 05:51 and that... that... 05:52 the whole idea of these drugs actually changing 05:57 various pathways and cutting off different things... 06:01 it's just... they're not often working with the body... 06:05 they work against the body... and that's one of the issues 06:09 that I have... 06:11 with a lot of the drug use that's going on... 06:13 what are some of the drugs 06:17 that are again... 06:20 working... some other examples of drugs... 06:23 working against the body... 06:25 in healing? 06:26 Well, the way we are trying to 06:30 address this epidemic of Type 2 Diabetes 06:32 is really kind of silly... 06:34 most often... when someone is diagnosed with Type 2 Diabetes, 06:39 they are immediately placed on these oral hypoglycemic drugs 06:43 now, they may need that drug for a short term... 06:47 to act as a crutch until the lifestyle and dietary measures 06:51 kick in... but most of the time... 06:53 they're not given proper advice on diet, lifestyle 06:57 and proper supplementations... so they end up becoming 07:00 over reliant on these drugs 07:02 and what we know about 07:04 these drugs that are used to lower blood-sugar levels 07:07 in Type 2 Diabetes is that they don't alter the progression 07:11 of the disease... and eventually 07:12 they stop working 07:13 so the doctor has to prescribe them... either in higher dosages 07:17 or in combination with other drugs... 07:19 and when that happens... it actually increases mortality 07:23 the reason why we want to treat Type 2 Diabetes 07:26 is that... it carries with it an increased risk 07:28 of having a heart attack... having a stroke... 07:31 or developing cancer... though when we look at the data, 07:34 when we rely on those drugs, they actually end up 07:38 putting people into the grave sooner... 07:41 so, the reason is... because we're not addressing 07:44 the underlying cause... good medicine is always about 07:47 addressing that underlying factor... 07:50 and we can't ignore... the power of our mind 07:53 the power of our beliefs... the power of our diet... 07:58 and the power of our lifestyle in influencing our health... 08:01 and that's what I'm against ignoring 08:04 and that's what conventional medicine does... 08:06 it doesn't pay enough attention to... 08:07 there's no profit in it for the drug companies... 08:10 if everybody was healthy, they'd be out of business... 08:15 Well, that is so true... you know... I've noticed... 08:17 when I go to some dinners and things 08:20 and I see people that I know have Type 2 Diabetes and 08:24 they'll eat anything they want to eat... 08:26 and then they'll think that if they pop a pill... 08:30 that that's going to change the situation... 08:32 and what you're saying... Dr. Murray is so true 08:35 that if we can get to the cause... 08:37 of the issue... meaning lifestyle changes 08:41 and that kind of thing... we make poor lifestyle choices 08:44 and then think that a pill... that there's a magic pill for it 08:48 that a pill is going to actually change the situation... 08:51 it might kind of ameliorate the symptoms... 08:55 but it is not going to address the root cause... 08:58 and that's one of the things that Naturopathic Medicine does 09:01 it identifies the root cause... 09:04 of the condition... and then... you attempt to 09:08 to make changes... what would you say... 09:11 if you're looking at... at the situation as a whole... 09:17 with the interaction between the Drug Companies 09:20 and the doctors... how would you describe that 09:24 that whole relationship... that inter-dependence? 09:28 We have a faulty system... 09:30 we have a situation where 09:33 the Drug Companies are spending most of their money on 09:35 they call it... 09:38 "Continuing Medical Education" 09:40 it's basically trying to sell their drugs 09:42 to physicians... and they also, advertise now on TV... 09:47 on the Radio... and in Print... whereas prior to 1997 09:51 that was illegal... Direct-to-Consumer Advertising 09:55 is a big problem... if I was Health Czar for a day 09:58 that's one of the first things that I would do 10:01 is to eliminate Direct-to-Consumer Advertising 10:04 the second thing I would do is 10:06 I would make research transparent 10:08 it's a sad fact that the majority of research on drugs 10:11 in the United States is conducted by 10:13 clinical research organizations 10:15 these are companies... that the drug companies 10:16 actually pay to do the research... 10:19 since the Drug Companies paid for the research, 10:21 they own it... so, then they're free to 10:24 manipulate the information, they are free to cover it up, 10:28 they own that information and they have complete rights to 10:32 dispense it any way they want... 10:33 so, a lot of times... what's happening is that 10:37 after the fact... we find out because... 10:39 these drugs are causing problems... 10:42 that the Drug Companies knew from the very get-go 10:45 that there were problems with their drugs 10:47 a case in point are the drugs like Celebrex, Vioxx and Bextra 10:52 that were developed for osteoarthritis... 10:55 these drugs killed more Americans 10:57 than we lost in the Vietnam War, these drugs killed 11:00 over 60,000 Americans, initial research just look 11:04 fabulous... but who did that research? 11:06 Well the drug companies did that research... 11:07 and they knew from the very beginning 11:10 that there were problems with these drugs 11:13 on the heart... in, I mentioned the 11:16 Type 2 Diabetes medications... Avandia... 11:20 Avandia was a drug that came to market with much value 11:23 again the initial research just looked fabulous... 11:26 but who did that research? The Drug Companies... 11:29 Who paid for that research? The Drug Companies... 11:31 Was it complete? No... 11:32 When they started doing independent studies 11:34 where they would take people with Type 2 Diabetes... 11:37 divide them into two groups give one group a placebo 11:39 and the other group... the Avandia... 11:42 the group taking the Avandia had a 64% increase 11:46 in fatal heart attacks... the U.S. Senate did a report... 11:49 they estimated that 83,000 heart attacks were caused by 11:53 these Type 2 Diabetes medication 11:56 now we have data showing that sleeping pills 12:00 are one of the biggest contributors 12:02 to premature death in America... 12:04 10 percent of our population regularly take these 12:07 Benzodiazepine and other types of sedative hypnotic drugs 12:12 and studies all around the globe there have been now... 12:16 19 very detailed studies that have evaluated 12:20 the link between taking these sleeping pills 12:23 and them... causing an early death... 12:26 My! the latest... 12:29 it's just unbelievable! 12:30 My! so, we know that insomnia is a huge problem 12:35 it's a huge problem... 12:37 well, I have a couple of questions about it... 12:39 because you've raised a couple of questions... 12:41 so, first of all with insomnia... 12:45 what would be... a naturopathic approach to helping someone 12:48 get better sleep? 12:50 Yeah, well, I just recently moved to Arizona... 12:54 prior to that I was in the Seattle area... 12:56 and in the Northwest for many years 12:58 in Seattle... I cured many people of their 13:02 incurable insomnia... just by having them 13:06 cut down on their caffeine intake... 13:09 Hmmm... hmmm... People are very sensitive 13:11 to caffeine... there are two types of insomnia 13:15 there's "sleep on-set insomnia" where people have a hard time 13:18 calming down and getting to sleep... 13:20 but the more common form of insomnia is called... 13:24 "Sleep Maintenance Insomnia" this is the form 13:27 where people are able to get to sleep... 13:30 but they wake up... 3, 4, 5, or more hours 13:32 after going to bed... and can't get back to sleep 13:35 well, we've been monitoring people's blood-sugar levels 13:40 continuously... using some new technology 13:42 and what we found is that when people are on... 13:45 what we call the blood-sugar roller coaster 13:48 and their blood-sugar levels were going up and down... 13:50 up and down... during the day... 13:51 they also experienced that at night as well... 13:54 so, any time there's a rapid drop 13:57 in our blood-sugar levels... there is a release of adrenalin 14:01 and cortisol... that wakes us up... 14:03 Ash... ah ha... and it's hard to get back 14:05 to sleep... so, for many people 14:08 the best approach to getting a better night's sleep 14:11 is to focus on their diet, and proper supplementation 14:14 to control their blood-sugar levels... 14:16 if they stabilize their blood-sugar levels 14:18 throughout the day... it will help stabilize 14:20 blood-sugar levels throughout the night... 14:22 and they'll be able to sleep continuously... 14:25 My! so... see this is so deep... who would have connected 14:28 blood-sugar levels with insomnia 14:31 I mean, like the average person is not going to think... 14:34 "Well my blood-sugar levels are up and down... 14:37 and so I can't sleep at night... " 14:38 who would have done that? 14:39 And yet... that is... that is the link... 14:42 that is a link... blood-sugar levels... 14:45 Yeah... so, for taking a 14:48 bio-chemical Band Aid... 14:50 to try to help us sleep through the night... 14:52 and that drug... 14:54 doesn't address the underlying cause 14:56 and in this case... if someone had a blood-sugar issue 14:58 and they took a sleeping pill, 15:00 a sleeping pill is not going to to impact that at all... 15:02 it's going to help put them out... 15:04 but you know what happens when you take that sleeping pill 15:07 it actually ends up disrupting normal sleep processes... 15:10 now, sleep is still largely a mystery 15:12 but I think everyone would agree that we need sleep 15:15 and that sleep is responsible for recharging us 15:18 for healing us, for regeneration... 15:21 it's very critical so if we are interfering with 15:25 our sleep processes... it's little wonder 15:27 that these sleeping pills are associated with 15:30 a 35 percent increase in developing cancer... 15:32 so, we got to look deeper, 15:35 we can't look to try to address our health concerns 15:39 first by taking a drug... we have to look at what 15:43 we can do with our diet, our lifestyle and attitude... 15:46 I'm a broken record 15:47 but hope it's one that will resonate with your listeners... 15:50 Well, you know, we as Adventist Christians... 15:54 we are very health-focused... and so, you are actually 15:59 singing our song... we know that 16:01 if we don't change lifestyle... make changes in the lifestyle, 16:07 then, what do you have? 16:09 you lead to disease 16:11 if you don't get enough rest, if you don't eat properly, 16:14 all of these things, 16:16 will cause disease, 16:18 and I think that we live in a Society 16:20 that's so quick to push a pill, and yet, lifestyle change... 16:25 is not that easy... another thing that you 16:27 talk about in the book... that I'd like to address is... 16:30 GERD and acid indigestion, 16:32 how does modern medicine approach that? 16:35 Allopathic medicine approach that... 16:37 and then, what is the difference with functional medicine? 16:41 Okay, yeah... Gastroesophageal Reflux Disorder 16:44 is characterized by heartburn... 16:46 in the past we would called it indigestion... 16:49 but now they've got a fancier name for it, 16:51 and it's treated, now, with some pretty heavy-duty drugs 16:55 and what these drugs do is they block the production of acid 17:00 now... many people that have gastroesophageal Reflux 17:04 or have heartburn... have poor digestion... 17:07 and would actually benefit by taking hydrochloric acid... 17:10 when you take the drug, 17:12 to block the symptoms... 17:14 you're also blocking the digestive process... 17:17 so, you are creating... end up creating more problems 17:21 than you're really benefiting, and these drugs are 17:25 linked to an increased risk for fractures, 17:29 they're linked to nutrient deficiencies... 17:33 and they're linked to altering our gut microflora... 17:37 you know we have more more microbes growing in our 17:40 intestinal tract than we have cells in our human body... 17:43 Wow... so, yeah, so it's more 17:46 bacterial cells in our gut than there are human cells 17:49 in our body... and the type of bacteria that we have 17:52 in our intestinal cells, play a huge role 17:56 in our overall health, so, it's little wonder that 17:59 when we disrupt that flora, we disrupt our health, 18:02 so, I think there are better approaches, 18:05 if someone has indigestion, I think, most often, 18:09 they are going to respond better to digestive support, 18:13 that may mean hydrochloric acid supplementation 18:16 it may mean digested enzymes, it may mean taking some 18:19 of these probiotics to replenish our gut flora, 18:23 so it takes a little bit of detective work 18:26 but I think... in the long run the person is better off 18:29 utilizing a more rational approach 18:33 than just simply blocking their symptoms... 18:35 You know, I'd like to ask you 18:37 something else with that too, Dr. Mike, 18:39 because to... to again, 18:41 to the average person, if they're taking an antacid, 18:47 they think that they have too much HCl... 18:49 too much hydrochloric acid, but what you're saying 18:52 is they actually need more, is that what you're saying... 18:56 they actually need more acid to properly digest their food... 18:59 that... see... that seems counterintuitive doesn't it? 19:03 It does... it does... but about 80 or 90 percent of people 19:08 who have GERD have low to normal hydrochloric acid 19:14 production... so only about 10 percent really are secreting 19:18 too much acid... there are a lot of factors 19:21 to take into consideration with Gastroesophageal Reflux Disorder 19:25 certain foods tend to aggravate it 19:29 again, I'll pick on coffee... 19:31 it's one of the big culprits in GERD... 19:36 overeating... those two things alone are some of the 19:41 biggest contributors to Gastroesophageal Reflux Disorder 19:45 Wow... in the African-American Community... 19:48 there is a very high level... there's a high level of chronic 19:55 disease... such as Hypertension, Diabetes, Cancer... 20:00 and with Hypertension for example 20:03 what are some of the suggestions that you would have 20:06 to naturally control High Blood Pressure? 20:09 You know, you brought up an audience that I would love 20:16 to be able to touch, because it's very 20:18 sad for me to see this epidemic of High Blood Pressure... 20:23 Cardiovascular Disease, many forms of Cancer 20:27 in our African American Community 20:29 I don't think they have enough heroes... 20:31 they need people out there inspiring... 20:34 hopefully, you're doing that, but it's... 20:37 I've heard that it's hard for them to make changes 20:40 to their diet and lifestyle but it really begins with diet 20:45 certain racial groups... they have a genetic predisposition 20:50 for Western diseases... High Blood Pressure, 20:53 High Cholesterol... Diabetes... Obesity... 20:56 when we look at the Polynesians, 20:59 when we look at the African Americans 21:01 when we look at the Pima Indians... 21:03 eating the typical American diet is like poison to them... 21:11 so, fried foods are a "No" 21:14 salt... too much salt... is a "No" 21:17 most African Americans with High Blood Pressure 21:20 are very salt sensitive... 21:22 so simply utilizing a potassium chloride form of salt 21:27 versus a sodium chloride form sometimes, that's enough to help 21:32 bring that blood pressure down, but the biggest contributor to 21:37 High Blood Pressure in America regardless of race or age or sex 21:42 is being overweight... so that's where we really 21:45 have to focus... we have to help people achieve 21:48 and maintain their ideal body weight... 21:50 Great... thank you... now what about Diabetes... 21:53 I know that recently you wrote a book... 21:56 you authored a book about a natural approach to diabetes 22:00 again... that is another condition that plagues 22:05 African Americans, Latinos, 22:07 lots of folks in the inner cities... 22:09 what would you say about... about Diabetes... 22:13 actually, I know that you've written a book about it 22:17 so there's a lot that you could say 22:18 but, how would you, 22:20 if you were talking to someone right now 22:23 that had Diabetes... Type 2 Diabetes... 22:25 what would you say as being some of the most 22:27 important factors involved in that? 22:29 Diabetes is a killer... when you have Diabetes... 22:34 it not only shortens your life, it significantly impairs 22:38 your quality of life... that's well known... 22:42 when you are Diabetic... 22:44 especially if you're poorly controlled... 22:46 it impacts every aspect of your life... 22:49 you don't sleep well... you don't have energy... 22:51 you get aches and pains... the quality of your life 22:54 depends upon maintaining your blood-sugar levels 22:56 within a very narrow range... Diabetes is a condition 23:02 most often... of diet and lifestyle 23:05 and you have to make changes in those areas... 23:10 you may need to take a medication 23:13 but that is like... using a crutch 23:15 or putting your arm in a sling if you hurt it, 23:17 if you keep it in that sling or you keep using those crutches 23:22 you lose... that function 23:23 and that's what happens when you rely on these drugs... 23:26 there's no way around it, if you have Type 2 Diabetes, 23:29 you have to make changes to your diet and lifestyle, 23:32 and if you can... then you can... actually... 23:36 cure and reverse your Type 2 Diabetes... 23:40 that's not stressed enough... 23:42 Yes... yes... that is so true, it's not stressed enough 23:46 that it can be cured... that word "cure" 23:49 Dr. Murray... how often do you hear that word... 23:52 just in general... "cure or heal" 23:55 how often do you hear it? 23:57 And yet... Diabetes can be reversed... 24:00 it's one of the easiest things to reverse 24:03 if the lifestyle changes are made... 24:06 Absolutely... 24:07 Now, how can you prevent Stroke and Heart Attack? 24:11 See I'm asking you all these questions... 24:13 this is the Readers Digest approach... 24:16 And again... we're going to try and point people 24:20 in the right direction... Yes... 24:22 the book is a good resource... my website is a great resource, 24:25 and a lot of it is just common sense 24:27 a lot of it... we know what we need to do... 24:30 in regards to Heart Disease and Strokes 24:33 when there's been an over-focus on lowering Cholesterol... 24:36 over 50 percent of people who have a fatal heart attack 24:39 had normal to low Cholesterol levels... 24:42 so, it's just a piece of the puzzle 24:44 and my... I don't know the right way to say it 24:49 something that really gets me going is... 24:52 is when we rely solely on trying to reduce one thing 24:58 and thinking that we have protection... 25:00 and we ignore all the other risk factors, 25:03 high Cholesterol levels are a risk factor... 25:06 but so is lack of exercise, so is High Blood Pressure, 25:10 so is Diabetes, so is being overweight... 25:14 and so is smoking... those are the major risk factors 25:17 and we have other risk factors as well... 25:19 diets that are low in antioxidants 25:22 so not getting enough fruits and vegetables 25:25 and legumes in the diet, 25:26 not taking enough antioxidant supplements 25:31 fish oils have also been shown to be protective 25:34 these other areas are often neglected 25:38 and that's a shame because... when we look at the data 25:42 with fish oils, for example, it far exceeds the significance 25:47 of Statin Drugs... in reducing the risk for having 25:50 a Heart Attack or Stroke... studies have shown 25:53 that when people are able to take about a thousand milligrams 25:56 of the Long-Chain Omega 3 fatty acids... 25:59 found in fish and fish oils, 26:02 they can get that level every day 26:04 a thousand milligrams of the Omega 3 fatty acids, 26:07 EPA and DHA... they can reduce their risk 26:10 of having a Heart Attack or Stroke 26:12 by nearly 60 percent... 26:14 Wow! wow! 26:16 Yeah, that's actually more significant 26:18 than exercise but I don't like telling people that... 26:21 because they might stop that... 26:22 Because they'll stop exercising... 26:23 Dr. Murray where did our time go our time is up... 26:26 I want to put your website up on the screen 26:28 so people can check it out... 26:31 they can order the books, they can see... 26:34 Doctor Murray. com 26:35 that is his website... 26:38 Dr. Murray, thank you so much for being with us... 26:41 I want to be there live, we have to set that up... 26:43 I want to be there live... 26:45 so that I can give you a big old hug... 26:46 Oh, I would love that... okay now, viewers you heard that 26:49 you heard Dr. Murray, now it's etched in stone... 26:52 he's going to come and he's going to come and visit 26:55 thank you so much Dr. Murray... 26:57 Oh, it's my pleasure... 26:58 One of my favorite authors, Ellen White 27:01 talks about the effects on the body of the injudicious 27:04 use of drugs... in the book, Spiritual Gifts, 27:07 she states, "I was shown that more deaths have been 27:11 caused by drug-taking... than from all other causes 27:14 combined... multitudes of drugs 27:17 have cursed the inhabitants of the earth 27:19 and have carried thousands and tens of thousands 27:21 to untimely graves... " 27:23 and in "Ministry of Healing" she states that the true 27:27 physician is an educator, he recognizes his responsibility 27:31 not only to the sick who are under his direct care, 27:33 but also to the Community in which he lives... 27:36 oh it's so important that we realize 27:39 that we can change from these poor lifestyle habits 27:44 and choices... to making healthy choices 27:47 we can make healthy choices, we can change our lifestyles, 27:52 and we can actually have health, if we seek Jesus Christ, 27:57 we can have health... 27:58 Thanks so much for being with us... 28:00 see you next time... it wouldn't be the same... 28:02 without you... |
Revised 2015-06-05