Participants: Yvonne Lewis (Host), Dr. Trevor and Edith Fraser
Series Code: UBR
Program Code: UBR000116A
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00:01 Does your marriage need a tune-up?
00:02 Well, hang in there... my guests have some scriptural 00:06 insights to share with you... 00:07 My name is Yvonne Lewis and you're watching 00:10 Urban Report... 00:34 Hello and welcome to Urban Report... 00:36 My guests today are Drs. Trevor and Edith Fraser... 00:40 Co-founders and Co-directors of Christian Family Life Seminars 00:44 they are marriage counselors and authors of 00:48 "Saving Marriage by Applying Biblical Wisdom" 00:51 Welcome to Urban Report Drs. Fraser... 00:54 Thank you so much... Thank you... 00:56 Yeah.. So glad to be here... 00:58 Oh, it's so great to have you here... 01:00 you know... your book, 01:02 "Saving Marriage by Applying Biblical Wisdom" 01:07 is just... it has such profound information 01:11 in it... and I'm so thankful that you've written this book... 01:14 because we really need it... tell us what... 01:18 what prompted you to write this book? 01:20 Well we thought it was... should be a labor of love... 01:24 and it was from the background that when we first started 01:28 our pastorate in New York City in an urban environment 01:32 we realized that people were really having problems 01:36 with the rat race that often accompanies a situation like 01:42 any urban city... and we really felt that 01:45 people were just passing each other in the night... really... 01:48 Hmmm... really struggling to maintain 01:51 and manage... and it was natural for families 01:54 to feel that they have to do that... in order to survive... 01:56 in an urban environment... 01:58 And one of the things that happened also for us is 02:01 someone came to us and they said, 02:03 "Well, you have the perfect marriage" 02:05 we have been... now married for 45 years... 02:07 but it wasn't that many years then 02:10 and we laughed because, what is a perfect marriage? 02:15 so, we thought we would look at some Biblical examples... 02:20 of people who were 02:21 after God's own heart... 02:24 and see if they had "perfect marriages" 02:27 and we found, in the Bible, 02:28 They were not so perfect... 02:29 no perfect marriages... we didn't find any... 02:32 Well, because there are no perfect people, right? 02:34 Absolutely... absolutely... 02:36 And it's a work in progress... a marriage... 02:41 Yes... absolutely... 02:42 So, we felt... how do we help people see... that... 02:47 that because we all are 02:50 created as we are... we were created perfect 02:53 in the beginning... the first couple... however, 02:55 subsequently, sin... created the problem 02:58 and we now need to learn how to resolve 03:01 and to work with each other... 03:03 so... how do we work with each other as sinful creatures? 03:07 and I think we need the tools 03:11 to be able to work with each other... 03:13 because... people are different and, you know, 03:17 in the beginning... and you address this in the book 03:21 you talk about the four stages... 03:23 marriages have stages and seasons... 03:25 and you talk about those four, 03:27 of togetherness, reality, accommodation and transformation 03:31 and I thought, "Wow! that is so interesting because... " 03:35 tell us... I want you to explain that... 03:37 elaborate on those four stages for us... 03:40 and why or what happens in those four stages... 03:44 Well, the couple we used to talk about the stages 03:49 of marriage was Adam and Eve... 03:50 and when couples start off together... 03:54 they do everything together... they can't imagine being apart 03:58 but then, you know, when we do these workshops... 04:01 and we talk to people, they say, "and then reality sets in... " 04:04 and they have to go out and get a job... 04:06 and people begin to differentiate... 04:08 they begin to be focused on their jobs or their careers... 04:13 or children come in... and so they're focused on that 04:16 and so, those kinds of things impact marriages... 04:19 for example... research has shown 04:21 that marital happiness goes down at the birth of a child... 04:26 so you leave from that "togetherness stage" 04:28 to a stage where you are differentiating 04:30 and then you have to really work 04:32 on learning to accommodate each other 04:35 and recognize those differences and once you do that... 04:38 then you can really have a marriage that's transformed... 04:42 but it's not just automatic... in other words... 04:45 it's not like in the movies where people kiss 04:48 and they live happily ever after... 04:50 that's not for real... 04:51 But we really talk about reality setting in 04:54 in such a way... that bills have to be paid... 04:56 Hmmm... you have to live... some place, 04:59 you have to eat... those are some of those things 05:01 that you have to do... and those often require a lot of 05:07 work... negotiation... there may be... 05:12 as I was sharing with my class yesterday... 05:15 that there may be issues where sometimes we look at 05:17 you know, where we used to think... 05:20 we look at role changes... 05:22 we look at roles now changed... 05:24 where it may be... the woman that's bringing in 05:27 the larger salary... and how do you negotiate that 05:32 in a Society where we thought the men should bring home 05:36 that salary... or the "bacon" as we say... 05:39 but what we realize is that those things change... 05:42 so now we have to make these adjustments 05:44 and we do need to make those adjustments 05:45 in the urban context 05:47 because sometimes it changes drastically... 05:49 Absolutely... let's talk about that for a few minutes 05:53 if you would, what happens when the roles are kind of reversed 05:59 and the woman makes more money 06:01 than the man... or the husband... 06:03 the wife makes more than the husband... 06:05 how do they keep things going where he maintains 06:10 his sense of self-esteem... and she remains to... 06:15 and she remains somewhat submissive... 06:17 I know people are going to send me 06:18 e- mails or whatever about that... 06:20 but, I mean, where he continues to feel as though 06:24 he is the "Man" 06:26 of the house... 06:27 Well... number one... 06:28 suppose the woman is an Executive... 06:32 that's her job... which is why she's making lots of money... 06:35 Right... she's not the Executive at home 06:38 Oh come on now... she should be clear 06:42 on her function and role at home... and so, 06:46 the Bible, in Ephesians 5... which is where you were quoting 06:50 it talks about wives submitting but the verse before that... 06:54 we love to quote that one... Trevor and I do... 06:56 because it says that we should be 06:57 equally submissive to each other... 06:59 Mutually submissive... Yes... 07:00 so, when you get home... you can't order everyone around 07:06 including your spouse... 07:07 just because you're the Executive at work... 07:10 and that would be true for the man also... to be honest... 07:15 I mean, sometimes, men who are in the Military 07:17 or who are policemen... who are accustomed to, you know, 07:20 giving orders... they come home and they give everyone orders 07:24 and the home is a separate entity from your work... 07:27 and it's almost like when you come to that door 07:30 you need to shed some of those pieces... 07:33 so that you can work out a 07:35 collaborative relationship in the home... 07:38 and I think that's one of the ways it's done... 07:42 women come home and they realize... 07:45 "We work together at home... " 07:47 "We are all in this together" 07:48 and I think by the same token, a man has to realize 07:51 that in this new reality... that we have to then know 07:54 how to work with each other, 07:55 we need to know how to... as a matter-of-fact... 07:58 when I share with my students the fellows in the classroom, 08:01 and by-the-way... the relationship in college 08:04 classrooms is something like 60 to 40... 08:07 60 percent women... female and 40 percent male... 08:09 and the young man said to me, 08:11 "Well, I don't mind her working and making the larger salary... 08:16 I think we can work it out... " 08:17 and I'm thinking... "This is a new generation... 08:20 they're working out of different realities here... " 08:23 I think in the past... that would have been a struggle 08:25 for the man to make that shift, 08:27 I think they're making that kind of shift because 08:30 they now realize that this is more of a partnership 08:33 than anything else... 08:35 I think that's a great point... about the new reality... 08:39 because I do notice that there is a shift in 08:41 the idea of roles and that kind of thing... 08:44 I mean... a lot of times... 08:46 men are more involved in raising the baby, 08:50 nurturing the babies and all that... 08:51 and that's kind of a shift... 08:53 which is a welcome shift, I think... 08:55 but I think that's a really good point... 08:57 and I should mention that you are both... 09:00 you're both professors... at schools 09:02 and so you are... not only authors and lecturers 09:06 but you're also... professors... 09:08 at Oakwood and Alabama A and M correct? 09:11 Well, I actually recently retired so I'm actually 09:15 at home... and it's wonderful 09:16 so I do teach one course at Oakwood 09:19 and I'm no longer at A and M... but I was... 09:20 that's what's on the book... you're absolutely correct... 09:23 Yes, yes, yes, yes, and that is so good... 09:25 so you guys... kind of stay plugged in 09:28 to what's going on with our young people and 09:31 relationships... how else, have you noticed that 09:35 relationships have changed... over the years... 09:38 Well, you know, an interesting thing has happened... 09:41 we get a number of young couples who come to us 09:45 for Pre-engagement Counseling... 09:47 because we do a number of things, 09:49 we do Pre-marriage Counseling, we do counseling, 09:51 we do workshops with the seminars 09:53 but they will come to us and they'll say... 09:55 "Well, we're not sure we want to get engaged... 09:59 so before we get engaged we want pre-engagement... 10:02 and that is the new phenomenon... 10:03 That is new because they introduced it to us... 10:05 they requested it... 10:07 Ah, and so what's in that... what's involved with that? 10:09 We're taking them through a process of looking at 10:14 different roles... looking at their uniqueness... 10:18 looking at... and I say... their cultural background 10:22 and I say that... because I recognize that almost 10:26 all of us... come from a different cultural background... 10:29 So are you finding that in this, kind of, new reality... 10:32 that we're in now... young couples are more open 10:37 to receiving counseling... than in previous years 10:42 or is it about the same? 10:43 I think they realize 10:45 that it is necessary because of the complexity of the Society 10:51 they do not take it for granted 10:54 that they can maneuver 10:56 through this life... and so they actually approach us 10:59 and say, you know, "I want to know how I can 11:02 I can have some pre-engagement counseling... 11:04 and when we first started it... we had to then create 11:08 "Well, what would be different 11:10 from an engaged couple... planning... " 11:13 and we had to think about... and we have about 3 sessions 11:16 that we look at... and there are some of the things 11:18 that we look at... for example, 11:21 we want them to look at their uniqueness... who they are... 11:25 Another thing that we think is really important is 11:28 what are some of their core values... 11:30 so our premise is... you know... people say this all the time 11:33 that opposites attract... and we agree with that... 11:36 but you can't be opposite in core values... 11:39 Hmmm... that is such a good point... 11:43 that's where you're similar... 11:44 and so we get to list their core values... 11:47 and then see them together... and think about 11:49 what would be a "mission statement" 11:51 that would reflect this couple's life... 11:54 and so, those are the kinds of things that we do... 11:56 in pre-engagement... because we want them to know 12:00 "Are we really compatible?" "Is this really going to work?" 12:04 and what is interesting, Yvonne, when you've had people 12:07 who came with all intentions of moving to the next stage... 12:11 Correct... and after looking at their 12:14 differences... in terms of their core values... 12:17 and after thinking about it, 12:18 because we want them to process this 12:20 we want them to think about it, 12:21 they have changed their minds... Correct... 12:23 and we've had all those who've gone... the other direction 12:25 and say, "Well, I think, I want... 12:27 I see now... where I want to go... 12:29 in terms of the relationship. " 12:30 You know, that... to me, identifying your core values... 12:35 that is key... that is a critical piece 12:37 because if your values aren't... if you're not on the same page, 12:42 with your core values... that relationship is doomed... 12:46 Yes... You see, what we think is... 12:48 is... okay... "I'm rich... you're poor... " 12:52 that matters... "Class" 12:54 or we may think... immigration status versus 12:58 not being an immigrant which is "ethnicity" 13:01 or "race" all these factors are important 13:04 and they do have some impact, 13:06 but if you have core values that are similar... 13:10 if you believe that "family" is important... 13:13 if you believe that "working hard" is important... 13:16 or "working" period... yeah... 13:18 "honesty" is important... if you have a code of ethics 13:23 that you operate from... and they're similar... 13:27 then you're fine... we're working with... 13:29 we're just about completed pre-marital counseling 13:32 with a couple... who he's Haitian 13:35 Hmmm... hmmm... and I think she's Dominican... 13:41 Dominican... yeah... yeah... in fact... that's one of their 13:44 challenges... when they get with each other's family 13:47 that one's family speaks French and the other one... Spanish... 13:51 so... you... but you know what? 13:53 their core values... Hmmm... hmmm... 13:55 were on point... 13:56 and so, that's what people don't realize... 14:00 that's what's really important 14:01 and that's what we do... in Pre-engagement... 14:03 We worked with another family another couple... 14:06 that's... he's Hispanic... and she is Indian-American... 14:10 she has an American... Native American 14:14 I'm talking about Native American 14:15 and they had some different, different views about things 14:20 but they had come to hold 14:22 a certain core value 14:24 that they recognized as important... 14:26 for their family... 14:27 like certain things that they don't think should be done 14:32 at home... they are now... and really, they were not 14:36 they were of a different spiritual persuasion... 14:39 and they have come to bring those two... 14:43 values together... and they've talked about it... 14:46 even in our counseling sessions, I thought that's been phenomenal 14:50 we have watched them grow... 14:52 in that direction... Correct... correct... yeah... 14:54 so, that's a powerful thing that has happened... 14:57 Absolutely, absolutely... so, what kinds of issues 15:00 do couples come to you with... what are some of the 15:04 most common issues that they come with... for counseling? 15:08 Well, as you might expect... "communication" 15:14 Hmmm... hmmm... couples either have 15:17 patterns of communication that are ineffective... 15:23 or patterns of communication that could be volatile 15:28 I mean, they argue all the time, 15:29 and so, what we have to really look at is... 15:34 where do they learn these patterns and then figure out 15:38 what works and what doesn't work... 15:40 so I would think "communication" is also an issue... 15:41 Well, you also have the issue of 15:43 knowing how people have communicated 15:45 in their own home... males, for example, 15:49 sometimes will find are non-communicative 15:52 they don't communicate much period... 15:55 and then you have women who communicate... 15:59 and you can do it reverse as well... 16:02 you can see that case as well... but they are not communicating 16:06 so, their spouse or their pre... 16:09 the person that they are dealing with 16:11 in terms of planning on marrying they're trying to get 16:15 from them... certain ideas... just knowing how they think... 16:20 how they developed and what has happened... 16:23 so, they're struggling with... "How to work this out... 16:26 and how do we communicate with each other... " 16:28 and this is literally... you're talking about... 16:30 as if it's communication... there is no communication... 16:34 that's nothing that's going between them... 16:35 and so, they have to negotiate that... 16:37 they have to work that out... 16:38 And a lot of couples have no concept 16:40 of how to have a disagreement... Hmmm... hmmm... 16:44 either they don't... they say, "Oh, we never argue" 16:48 well, that may not be a plus... 16:51 they're not dealing with anything... 16:53 That's right... what are some of the 16:56 tools or strategies that you would recommend 17:00 in terms of conflict resolution, 17:02 "we're just at each other all the time... " 17:06 arguing and arguing... how would you unravel that 17:10 how would you unpack that with the couple 17:12 and show them... how to... which strategies... 17:15 what tools would they use to resolve conflict... 17:18 You know, we almost always recommend to them 17:22 "the spiritual option" 17:23 we say, first of all, you need to pray for yourself... 17:26 Ah... start that process with prayer 17:30 and we're not saying, "Pray for her... or him" 17:34 but rather... pray for yourselves... 17:36 start out... ask God to give you the insight, 17:39 the direction... as you move along in this process, 17:43 we do have a sort of process that we switched on... 17:47 we say, first of all, let's find a mutually acceptable 17:52 place and time... 17:53 And that's so important... 17:55 people often try to have discussions 17:59 when it's not a good time... someone comes in the door... 18:02 and you've been simmering all this time 18:05 because they did... whatever... 18:06 and the minute they come in the door... after a hard day... 18:08 you hit him... you hit him with it... 18:10 that's not a good time... 18:13 So, timing is everything... 18:15 We were doing a Couples Retreat somewhere 18:19 and we said, "Give the person time... 18:24 don't say it when they first come into the door... 18:27 be willing to wait... " and one young lady 18:30 who was in the audience said, 18:31 "Well, how long do we have to wait?" 18:33 I said, "You know, I'm not sure" 18:34 she said, "Because if I have to wait more than 4 hours, 18:37 I'll just die... " 18:39 and, of course, 18:41 I did check with some medical people... 18:43 and you actually can wait longer than four hours... 18:46 She was right in the audience 18:47 so she did answer this at this point... 18:49 so timing is important a good place... I mean... 18:51 I don't think it's a good idea to have a major argument 18:55 In a grocery store... 18:57 in a public forum... and we use Esther with Xerxes 19:04 as an example of a woman who knew that timing and place 19:08 was important... think about it... 19:10 when she wanted to share something with him... 19:12 she invited him to dinner... she wined and dined him... 19:17 She already set the context and the stage... 19:19 Absolutely... and so, that's why we use 19:21 these Biblical couples... and so, you have to have 19:25 timing... you have to have the right place 19:27 and then... you need to share how it feels for you 19:31 too often we share... what we think the other person 19:36 has done wrong... when it's so much better 19:38 if you share... how it makes you feel... 19:41 That is such a good point because so often 19:44 when you're involved in discussing these things... 19:49 "well you did this and you did that... 19:51 and you, you, you... " but instead... if you say what's 19:55 "When this happened... it made me feel this way... " 19:58 then you can't really invalidate that as much as you... 20:02 you know... it doesn't set the other person 20:05 on the defensive so much... because it's your experience 20:08 of what happened... Absolutely... 20:10 that is such a good point... 20:11 We categorize it as "I" messages we put it in quotes 20:15 those are "I" messages that we start out... 20:17 And we talk about speaking the truth... but in love... 20:20 the Bible talks about that... and then we suggest that couples 20:25 avoid some things like... 20:28 avoid over-generalizations like... 20:30 "You never do this... " "You always do this... " 20:33 well, of course, 20:34 as I remind the groups when we are doing our workshops... 20:38 "You remember the 99 times they didn't do it... 20:41 they can remember the one time they did... " 20:45 Right... so, of course, they can get 20:47 defensive and say, 20:48 "Well, look, I did it... you didn't even appreciate it" 20:50 so, if you avoid... and we have even found that 20:54 in our marriage that when either one of us 20:57 used that "always" And we do argue... 20:59 And we do argue... Yvonne: No, never... 21:02 Edith: Absolutely... Trevor: You have to understand 21:05 when we need to talk about... we work differently... 21:08 you know... as much as we worked on the book together... 21:12 we found that there are different times when we work... 21:15 so, that's natural... 21:16 and I think people need to understand... 21:17 that there are some natural things that happen 21:20 and we need to work out some things... 21:21 you need to understand what the other person is like... 21:23 my wife likes to go to sleep early, 21:25 and I will stay up late... 21:28 we then work... I'll say, "She's a rooster 21:31 and I'm just an owl... " I'm an owl... 21:35 and so, we need to understand that about each other... 21:38 we need to then know how we then 21:40 should work around those points 21:42 those are some of the 21:43 conflict resolution things that we share... 21:45 I love that... and I love the idea... 21:47 what you're saying... 21:50 and what I think I hear you saying is that... 21:52 you accept the person as they are... 21:56 and you make your adaptations, 21:58 each of you makes an adaption 22:00 or an accommodation, if you will, 22:03 so that you can make it work... Hmmm... hmmm... 22:07 otherwise, you can... 22:10 one of the things that you mentioned in the book is how 22:12 people just grow apart, when they're not really 22:16 spiritually intimate... 22:18 let's talk about spiritual intimacy... 22:21 because I think... that's a real important point 22:24 not enough couples, I think, are really placing God 22:27 at the center of their relationship... 22:30 let's talk a bit about "spiritual intimacy" 22:32 Why is that important? 22:34 We start our first counseling session... 22:37 when we start with counseling... in terms of... 22:39 this is after we pass the pre-engagement... 22:42 we even introduce it in pre-engagement... 22:44 but we want to start off in our first discussion 22:47 is bringing God as the center, of the marriage... 22:51 starting... if you're thinking about a relationship... 22:54 then you need to bring God at the very beginning... 22:58 because God has given us some ideas and some concepts 23:02 about... when He first established Adam and Eve 23:06 one of the things that was critical to this relationship 23:09 was that He would come down and would be with them... 23:13 He was in their midst... 23:15 He expected... as a matter-of-fact 23:17 the time when Adam and Eve were running away from Him, 23:19 God was coming to speak with them 23:23 to spend the time... and so, it is in any relationship 23:27 this need for God to be a part of 23:30 the first order, the first cause you want to start with God... 23:34 so we believe that couples should have their own 23:37 worship... we often say that, you know, 23:39 you should have individual worship... 23:41 but you also should have couple worship... 23:44 and usually when I do that... I share the fact that 23:48 on our honeymoon night... my husband said to me 23:51 that there are two things he wanted us to establish... 23:55 as foundational concepts in our relationship... 23:59 and one was that we would have worship everyday... 24:03 and I can honestly say, he has been the 24:07 priest of our household... and he assures us 24:11 that we have worship... and, of course, I'll tell you 24:14 the other foundational piece... 24:16 and the other one was that we would not go to bed angry 24:19 and I always jokingly said, we did much better with the 24:23 first one than the second... That's true... 24:27 Well, that happens... how have you guys... 24:31 you've been married for 45 years what would you say, 24:35 and I love talking to couples that have been married 24:39 for a long time... and asking them, 24:41 "What do you think 24:42 is the secret to having a successful marriage?" 24:47 Well, I think that we initiated that 24:50 when we said that God is the center... 24:52 I think that having God be the primary personality 24:57 that we want to start and to maintain this relationship 25:00 and the personality that we go to when we need... 25:04 and all the time... well, we start with that... 25:07 I mean, when we start in the morning... we have... 25:09 we get up and we do have our 25:12 morning devotions at worship... at worship... 25:14 we're not talking about anything long, 25:17 but we start with prayer... 25:19 we start that way... and then... 25:21 I think people really don't realize 25:26 that a marriage is hard work... 25:29 Hmmm... hmmm... and you have to be committed 25:31 to the process 24/7 Hmmm... 25:34 and the other thing is that we have worked... assiduously 25:37 on our marriage... one thing that I do is 25:40 I'm always reading something... I'm reading a book now 25:42 called "The Second Half" it's talking about... 25:45 after you've been married for 25 years... 25:47 that second half... and so I'm reading that 25:50 so we're always working on it... 25:51 we go to "Couples Retreats" for our marriage 25:54 at least once in a year, sometimes more... 25:57 we do have "Date Nights" where we spend time together 26:03 so, a marriage is something 26:05 that you never get to the point where you say, 26:07 "Ah, we're happily married... we don't need anything... " 26:10 no, we still have to work on our marriage 26:12 we say that it is a "work in progress" 26:14 and it gets better as you make the investment... 26:18 And if we have periods when we are too busy 26:22 that we don't talk to each other... 26:24 and I find that we get testy and there's more dissension 26:28 in the relationship... because we need that 26:31 "together time" so, we've got to carve time out 26:34 for this to work... no relationship besides 26:38 that relationship... which is "relationship with God" 26:40 is more important than this relationship... 26:42 That's right... that's right... that is beautiful... 26:45 Hold your book up for us so our audience can see 26:49 this book... this book is excellent... 26:51 How can they get it? 26:52 "Saving Marriage by Applying Biblical Wisdom" 26:54 There are a number of ways they can get it... 26:56 it's on Amazon... and I believe... 27:01 we do our workshops... and when we do our workshops, 27:06 we actually bring them and sell them... 27:09 they can contact us, we have copies... 27:12 so all of these are options... That's great... 27:15 Thank you so much for being with us... 27:17 Your book, "Saving Marriage by Applying Biblical Wisdom" 27:21 is a wonderful book... and I hope that our Viewers 27:24 will buy it... give it as a gift to a couple 27:27 that you know... it is a blessing... 27:28 thank you so much Drs. Fraser... 27:31 You're welcome... We appreciate this... 27:32 God bless you... thank you... Blessings to you... 27:34 Well, your marriage may be in trouble... 27:38 so be sure to seek God's wisdom in His Word... 27:41 Try to apply some of the strategies that you heard today 27:45 to your situation... and be of good courage... 27:48 God's got your back... 27:49 Well, that's the end of our Program for today... 27:53 Thank you so much for tuning in... 27:55 and join us next time... because you know what? 27:58 It just wouldn't be the same without you... |
Revised 2015-07-14