Participants: Yvonne Lewis (Host), Dr. James Comer
Series Code: UBR
Program Code: UBR000126A
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00:01 Stay tuned to meet one of the most respected figures
00:03 in American Education. 00:05 My name is Yvonne Lewis and you're watching 00:07 Urban Report. 00:30 Hello, and welcome to Urban Report. 00:33 My guest today is Dr. James Comer, 00:35 Professor of Psychiatry at Yale University 00:38 and author of "Maggie's American Dream," 00:41 "What I Learned in School," "Raising Black Children," 00:44 and other scholarly works. 00:46 Welcome to Urban Report Dr. Comer... 00:49 Thank you... good to be here... 00:51 Yeah... I'm so happy you're here you know, 00:54 before I ask you about education for our children, 00:58 I just want to tell you how impressed I was 01:01 as I read your books, 01:03 I just felt your authenticity, 01:06 your compassion, your desire to make a difference 01:09 it's just so compelling, so, I want to publicly thank you 01:13 for your diligence and hard work. 01:15 Thank you so much. 01:17 Well, thank you for your kind compliments. 01:19 Absolutely... absolutely... 01:21 You know, it seems to me as though 01:23 you got your work ethic from your mom 01:26 and in your memoire, 01:28 "Maggie's American Dream" 01:30 you share a lot about your mother, Maggie. 01:33 Tell us about her and her impact on you and your siblings. 01:36 Well, it was mom and dad, 01:39 my dad was just as hardworking and dedicated, 01:42 he died early, and she really had to carry on 01:46 but she was terrific 01:49 and I would say that I won the real lottery 01:54 in having parents that were so great. 01:57 My mom was born in rural Mississippi, 02:01 Woodland, Mississippi and she was one of 12 children 02:06 and her father died... 02:10 he was killed by lightening 02:12 when she was 6 years of age, and as a result of that 02:15 a cruel stepfather came into their lives 02:18 and he was abusive in every way, 02:21 and would not allow the children to go to school, 02:24 and he was just a difficult man that they wanted to kill, 02:27 she ran away when she was 16 years of age, 02:34 to East Chicago, Indiana, 02:36 and told her sister there that she wanted to go to school 02:40 because she always felt that education was the way 02:43 but her sister wouldn't allow her to go to school, 02:47 and she had to drop out 02:49 and she took a job as a domestic worker 02:53 and that she did... for 12 years until she married my dad 02:58 and it was an interesting story, you know, 03:02 she ran away to her sister's house 03:07 and my father was her Sunday School teacher 03:09 and he was 12 years older, 03:14 and nobody wanted them to get married 03:18 her family didn't want her to get married but she did, 03:22 and they were married for 12 years before we were born, 03:26 and the two of them, 03:28 my mother with no real education, 03:33 less than two years of going to school, 03:36 my father had about 6 years of education 03:39 she worked as a Domestic, 03:40 he worked as a Steel Mill Laborer and Janitor, 03:43 and the two of them sent the 5 of us to college 03:46 for a total of 13 degrees, and so they sent that family, 03:54 they gave us a family experience 03:56 that really make that possible. 03:58 You know, from the beginning, 04:00 they would take us out to the park 04:02 and interact with us, 04:05 and they always believed in education, 04:08 and they always believed... 04:09 they believed in the Country also 04:12 because they believed that if you worked hard, 04:15 you could get wherever you wanted to go, 04:17 and so they prepared... but the others did also 04:21 that they had to prepare us to work hard 04:23 and so, everything they did, 04:25 was to prepare us to be successful in school 04:28 and to be successful in life. 04:31 That is so tremendous because one of the things that I noticed 04:37 from what you had said about your mom, 04:40 was that she... it was her story 04:43 when she was giving... in the first part of Maggie's book 04:45 the book about Maggie... Right... 04:47 and she was telling that she was a cook at 9 04:50 for over 20 people, 04:52 and so she developed a strong work ethic 04:56 your dad had a strong work ethic, 04:58 and they imparted that to you, they imparted... 05:02 even without education, 05:03 they imparted a standard of excellence, 05:07 Right... so, what you show, Dr. Jim, 05:10 if I may call you Dr. Jim, 05:11 what you show is that you don't have to be educated 05:17 to provide the environment for your children 05:20 to get an education. 05:22 That's right, that's right, when we were little children 05:26 my mother... and I still think she probably couldn't read, 05:29 she was probably illiterate, but she used to sit with us, 05:32 every Sunday evening 05:34 and read the Funnies... 05:36 now, the Funnies are not great literature 05:38 but it was sitting with her 05:43 and being close to her 05:45 and her warmth and her reading what she could to us, 05:49 and that just made learning important 05:53 and the warmth and the learning activity... 05:56 that made it important, 05:58 and that's the way they conveyed 06:00 the importance of learning to us. 06:03 Yes, what I hear you saying is that... 06:07 there was a combined activity here of the warmth, 06:16 the emotional nurturing along with the learning experience 06:20 so the learning got connected to the warmth 06:24 and that created that desire for learning 06:27 in you and your siblings. That's right. 06:30 That's the motivating factor, 06:33 if there's anything we're missing 06:34 today in what we do, 06:36 we focus too much on learning, on academics alone, 06:40 in isolation and not with the kind of environment 06:43 the warm, supportive environment, 06:45 we have to give children to help motivate them 06:49 while learning, after all, we can't learn for them, 06:52 they must learn for themselves, 06:54 and the only way you create a desire to learn 06:58 is to have the interactions with them, 07:01 in activities you're engaged in together, 07:03 that makes them want to learn, 07:05 and want to learn for themselves, 07:07 Yes... that's so true, 07:10 in your book, "What I Learned in School," 07:14 you talked about the developmental experience 07:17 that you and your siblings had at home, 07:19 unpack that a little bit more for us, if you would. 07:23 Well, you know, you have to grow in a number of ways, 07:27 not just academically, 07:29 you have to grow psychologically, socially, 07:33 you have to learn to feel good about yourself, 07:36 but the only way you could feel good about yourself, 07:40 is to gain capacity that will allow you to read, 07:44 write, talk to others, interact with others, 07:48 when you could do all those things, 07:50 you get good feedback from other people, 07:53 that helps you begin to feel good about yourself, 07:57 and so, social interaction, the psycho-emotional, 08:01 being able to handle your emotions, 08:04 and feelings 08:06 and interact with other people, 08:08 negotiate, work things out, 08:10 rather than fight, 08:11 all of those capacities that you need to have 08:15 so that you elicit a positive feedback 08:19 from all of the people around you. 08:21 That in turn makes you feel good about yourself again 08:24 and you can interact with people, empathize with people, 08:28 want to 08:30 care about people, you do care about people 08:34 because you care about them... they care about you, 08:36 again, you feel good about yourself 08:39 and that's the way we grow along, 08:41 what we call, the developmental pathways 08:44 the six... the Psycho-emotional, 08:46 Moral, Ethical, Linguistic. Electro-Cognitive, 08:49 you have to grow in all of those areas 08:53 and then elicit the feedback 08:58 that makes you feel like a whole and good person. 09:02 Yes, it is the development 09:06 along all of those parameters that you mentioned 09:09 that really makes the child whole and so, 09:13 it's so important to provide an environment 09:17 that is going to stimulate that development 09:20 holistically, and so, in your book, 09:23 again, the same book I alluded to a little while ago, 09:26 "What I Learned in School" you talked about three friends 09:29 that you said were probably as intelligent as you 09:33 but they had a different school experience from you. 09:37 Would you unpack that a little bit for us? 09:39 They had a different school experience 09:42 because they had a different home experience before school. 09:46 You know, their parents were good people, 09:48 they worked hard, same kind of background, 09:50 and they cared about the kids, 09:53 and the kids were great young people, 09:55 except that the parents did not appreciate 09:59 how you had to intentionally give your kids experiences 10:04 that help them grow and learn and express themselves 10:08 and interact, 10:09 and learn to interact with each other. 10:11 You know, we all... in my family, 10:13 we all sat around the table at the same time, 10:15 we were expected to talk about what went on in school, 10:19 you were expected to share, we joked with each other, 10:24 we had lots of fun, that wasn't emphasized, 10:27 the... having fun, having a good environment, 10:31 talking, arguing, making jokes, 10:37 all those things were emphasized in my family 10:40 supported in my family, my friends didn't have that, 10:43 we also thought about serious matters, 10:46 and how to handle yourself, 10:47 appropriate things to do in certain situations, 10:50 that's what all kids need, 10:55 some get it... 10:56 even poor kids get it. 11:00 We were poor, but we got that experience 11:04 from the parents promoting it and my friends didn't 11:09 and that was the difference, 11:11 they could not go in and present themselves 11:14 in ways that elicited a positive feedback, 11:17 from the school people, they got negative feedback 11:20 even though they were great kids. 11:21 That is... the whole idea of stimulating conversation 11:28 again, you're talking about things that don't require a lot, 11:35 you mentioned a word that is critical, 11:38 "intentional" you have to be intentional 11:42 about how you're working with your children 11:45 and you don't have to be well educated, 11:48 you don't have to be wealthy, 11:50 but you have to provide an environment at home 11:53 that gets your child to talk, 11:55 that gets your child to think critically, 11:58 that gets your child stimulated to learn, 12:02 you mentioned in the book that 12:04 your mother took you to get a library card, 12:08 library cards are free, 12:10 you got books from the library and you read them 12:13 but your friends... didn't go to the library. 12:16 They didn't know how it worked, 12:19 their parents didn't know how it worked, 12:22 and so, it just was a different environment, 12:26 and I think that if we can share with parents 12:30 that you can provide an environment 12:34 that is going to make your child want to learn 12:37 and want to be successful, or you can... just not do that 12:42 and then the child is left 12:44 kind of on its own 12:46 to kind of... try to figure out what's going on 12:48 and then the teachers don't know 12:50 and you brought that out in the book too, 12:51 and I thought that was really profound. 12:54 The teachers don't know, sometimes, 12:56 what the environment is at home, 12:58 so, they didn't know 12:59 that this child didn't go to the library, 13:02 didn't go, not because they didn't want to, 13:05 but because the parent didn't even know how to do that. 13:08 So we have so many things to consider, am I right? 13:11 That's right, and the school is a mainstream experience 13:15 that's the way most of the people 13:17 who operate in the mainstream 13:20 of Society, go to school, and go to school successfully. 13:23 Many non-mainstream families, 13:27 they are intimidated by the school environment. 13:31 It's different from their own home environment 13:35 and so the school has to work to create an environment 13:38 in which they feel welcome and supported, 13:42 and the things they do that are considered bad, 13:47 or... they're considered, 13:49 they're not smart because they do them, 13:52 the school has to understand 13:54 that they often do 13:57 inappropriate, unacceptable things, 14:00 because they haven't been helped at home 14:02 to understand that that's inappropriate and unacceptable, 14:05 and what is acceptable and appropriate. 14:10 So, if it's not taught at home, it has to be taught at school, 14:15 and if you can teach it with the parents involved, 14:19 the parents themselves then begin to support it at home, 14:22 and that's what we really did in our school program 14:25 that made the difference. 14:26 And let's talk a bit about your school development program 14:31 because it's just an amazing effort 14:34 on your part and the part of your team, 14:37 tell us about the team, 14:39 tell us about what you did and how you implemented 14:43 this new environment for students. 14:46 I led the team in 1968, we went into two schools 14:54 that were the worst schools in the city, 14:56 they had like the worst academic achievement, 14:58 worst attendance, worst behavior, 15:00 and there were five of us, 15:02 Psychologist, Social Worker, Special Education Teacher, 15:06 and what we did, essentially, was 15:09 to apply all of the knowledge 15:12 of child, adolescent development and schools and school functions 15:17 to everything that went on in the school, 15:20 and all the behaviors and the way they structured 15:23 and set up the school 15:25 and the activities they had in the school 15:27 and how they planned them, we set it all up 15:30 so that they can plan and create an environment 15:33 that first allowed all the adults 15:35 to get along well together, 15:37 once the adults could get along well together, 15:41 they could plan and think and talk 15:43 about what they wanted for the children 15:45 and then what kind of conditions they had to create 15:48 in order to make that happen, 15:49 and then carry out the kinds of activities, 15:54 actually, the same kind of activities that I had at home, 15:58 we carried them out in the school. 16:01 Interesting story but, my mother, 16:04 after the program began to get attention 16:06 because we were turning schools around, 16:08 I would travel... 16:10 my mother wanted to know what it was that we did 16:14 because she couldn't imagine... 16:17 so I described all of the activities that we created 16:22 and having children feel warm and accepted and valued, 16:26 and teaching them basic skills and stuff, 16:29 she looked at me and she said, "But that's common sense. " 16:32 And then, she looked at me again and she said, 16:38 "and they pay you for that?" 16:40 Because what I described, 16:44 my father did that for us, 16:48 when we were growing up, so that... the big problem, 16:54 one of the biggest problems is that 16:57 the school and education itself, 16:59 the Education Enterprise, is managed by people 17:04 who are from the mainstream, Hmmm... 17:08 they grew up in the mainstream, and their assumption is that... 17:13 that the children have what they had, 17:15 Yes. many of the children 17:19 did not have it. 17:21 Now in years past, 17:23 those children would have just done badly in school, 17:26 dropped out, and gone in the farm, 17:29 the factory, a whole variety of places, 17:32 but they would earn a living, 17:34 take care of themselves and their family, 17:35 and they'd be okay. 17:37 Today you can't do that, 17:39 that same group of children who would have dropped out, 17:43 are now in school because they must be in school 17:46 and yet they still don't have the skills necessary 17:50 to be successful in school, 17:51 and it means that the school must provide those skills 17:56 along with their parents, 17:57 and involve their parents in the process. 18:01 And it's so amazing that, and a blessing that 18:06 you would analyze it down to those components 18:10 and realize what needs to be done 18:12 to bring that student up to grade level 18:15 to provide that kind of environment 18:18 that's going to approach the student holistically 18:22 and so, I mean, that is just... that's a real blessing, 18:27 I mean, I know that you had a lot of success 18:31 in these schools, what would you say 18:36 was one of the most challenging situations that you had 18:41 in terms of bringing everybody together 18:45 and helping everybody to work together 18:48 toward that common goal 18:50 of the holistic development of that child? 18:52 Well, the focus is so much on curriculum and structure 18:59 and assessment, now, that... 19:03 when we started, nobody thought we could 19:07 do it anyway so they left us alone. 19:09 They didn't think you could do it 19:12 so they just said, "Oh, go ahead, just go for it. " 19:15 And when it happened, 19:20 then a lot of people began to do it. 19:22 And now, the focus on children they once said "couldn't learn" 19:27 now they're insisting that they learn 19:30 and so, everything is on curriculum instruction 19:34 and assessment, without understanding 19:37 that those rich family experiences and interactions 19:42 provide children with what they need 19:45 to be available for the instruction 19:48 that they're trying to provide, 19:50 and that's the basic point right now. 19:53 And also, many of the preparatory institutions, 19:58 schools of education and others, 20:01 did not provide teachers and administrators with knowledge 20:05 of what they have to create in the way of their environment. 20:10 Good environment, good experiences, 20:12 good relationships that allow 20:15 teachers, administrators, 20:17 to become important people in the lives of children 20:20 and because they're important people, 20:23 they can motivate the children to learn 20:25 and they can engage them in the kinds of conversations, 20:29 discussions, activities that we had 20:31 that allowed us to be successful in school. 20:33 That's what they're going to have to do. 20:36 Yes, yes... how and why did you decide 20:39 to blend psychiatry and education... 20:42 where did that come from? 20:44 Well, you know, I was planning to become a 20:46 General Practitioner of Medicine in my hometown, 20:49 and it was during that time, when I was doing my internship, 20:54 that I had learned about the problems 20:56 my 3 friends were having, who were just as bright 21:00 just as able as anybody in my family, 21:03 anybody in my school, and we went to a 21:07 racially integrated upper-income school, 21:11 and they were bright as anybody, 21:13 and yet they were going on a downhill course in life 21:16 and it was there that I began to think about... why? 21:20 and what can I do about it. 21:22 And that led me away from that desire 21:27 to be a General Practitioner and to work... 21:31 volunteer work in poor neighborhoods 21:34 and eventually, thinking about public health 21:38 Psychiatry, Child Psychiatry, and then to work in schools 21:43 and it was in Psychiatry... Child Psychiatry 21:47 that I began to think about development 21:49 and then really realize that it was my family experience 21:55 that provided us with the development 21:57 that made it possible, then I argued to myself, 22:01 we ought to be able to approximate that environment 22:05 in schools and that's what we did. 22:08 That's tremendous, that's tremendous, 22:11 would you say that... you wrote a book, 22:16 "Raising Black Children" 22:18 what would you say are some of the differences... 22:23 I mean there are some common universal needs 22:27 that transcend culture and race and all that, 22:31 but what are some of the differences 22:32 in raising Black and Minority children versus White children? 22:37 Well, most of all, you have to help Black children 22:43 understand that they're okay, 22:45 as long as they're performing well, 22:47 trying well, making the effort 22:50 and being responsible, they're okay. 22:52 It's the other person and it's the environment 22:58 that discriminates against them, or dislikes them 23:03 or has negative things to say about them, 23:06 the problem is out there, not with the "self" 23:10 and as long as you're a positive, contributing 23:15 person... then... that you're not the problem, 23:20 and you're an adequate person. 23:23 Yeah, it takes many experiences, it takes help, 23:28 it took me... the fact that I was in church 23:32 experiencing positive feedback, but also in school, 23:39 where I had good White friends, and was treated well and fair 23:45 most of the time, teachers and all the like, 23:48 so there was a combination of experiences... 23:52 on which I had positive feedback, 23:54 and I was taught how to handle racial problems 24:00 so that when I got through confronting somebody 24:03 or dealing with a racial issue, things were better off for me, 24:07 after... than they were before, 24:09 and that doesn't always happen, when you confront a problem, 24:13 and you don't confront it in a way 24:16 that is useful to you or anybody else. 24:18 An example, I had a teacher 24:21 and this is rare, 24:24 most of my teachers were very fair, 24:27 but I had a teacher who gave me a grade 24:30 that was below what it should be, 24:33 given that it was almost what... the top... 24:36 it was one point behind the top student's grade... 24:38 two students' grades, 24:39 30 points ahead of the next student, 24:41 I started talking with her, 24:44 she started convincing me 24:46 she tried to convince me that a "B" was a good grade, 24:48 and finally she said, 24:51 "Well, you know, I just don't think you're capable 24:53 of making an 'A'" 24:55 and that was the end of the discussion 24:57 because I knew what that meant. Hmmm... hmmm... 24:59 I went out and in the next 10 weeks, 25:02 I made the highest score in the room. 25:06 I didn't get in her face, I didn't argue, 25:09 I just went out and demonstrated that I could do it 25:13 and that I deserved that grade. 25:15 Now, that's what you have to help your kids... 25:18 the black kids... understand. Yes. 25:21 You demonstrate your excellence 25:24 and you don't "mouth" your excellence. 25:27 Yes... that is so profound, 25:33 "you demonstrate your excellence" 25:36 and what you needed... see... you could have gone 25:42 two routes with it, you could have shrunk 25:45 like... shrunk back, and you could have said, 25:48 you know, "Whoa, okay, I guess I just can't. " 25:51 Or you could do what you did, 25:54 and say, "I will show you, I don't have to say anything, 25:58 I will just show you, 25:59 I will make the top mark in the class... " 26:02 And this just negated the whole argument. 26:05 It just negated the whole argument 26:07 and what you got at home, gave you that foundation 26:12 to approach the situation that way. 26:15 That's right, that's right, 26:17 now, actually I have seen my mother, especially, 26:21 handle situations... just like that. 26:26 But, always handled it in a way 26:29 that she helped people look at what they were doing 26:32 that was not right, and not fair, and not just, 26:36 and often without saying a word, 26:38 just through demonstrating her excellence 26:40 so that we learned how to handle racial problems 26:46 and all kinds of problems through interactions at home. 26:49 And that is key, that we as parents 26:54 provide an environment at home for our children 26:59 that shows them, it demonstrates how to perform 27:04 in times of crisis and conflicts 27:08 and your parents did that. 27:10 We've got about 30 seconds, Doc, give us a closing thought, 27:14 whatever you want a parent out there to know about 27:17 how they can help their child, 30 seconds... 27:20 Well, I think "caring" is most important 27:24 and you don't have to worry about making a mistake 27:28 because they love you and you love them 27:32 and they will know that, and if you do make a mistake, 27:35 you apologize for the things that you did 27:40 and let them know that the reason was because 27:44 you are trying to have them do their very best, 27:47 and you want them to do their very best. 27:50 Yes... Thank you so much Dr. Jim, 27:54 you have provided such great information, 27:57 please come back and bless us again. 27:59 Well, thank you. 28:00 Thank you so much for joining us 28:02 this is the end of our Program, join us next time 28:04 it just wouldn't be the same without you. |
Revised 2015-08-26