Participants: Jason Bradley (Host), Pr. Byron Hill Sr.
Series Code: UBR
Program Code: UBR000182A
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00:01 Are you one of those people
00:02 that thinks that the Church is a hospital for sinners 00:05 well stay tuned to meet a man 00:07 who has a unique perspective on this issue. 00:09 My name is Jason Bradley 00:10 and you're watching Urban Report. 00:36 Hello and welcome to Urban Report. 00:37 My guest today is Pastor Byron Hill Senior. 00:40 Pastor Hill has served as a Seventh-day Adventist Pastor 00:44 for 43 years and is here to shed some light 00:47 on the statement that: Church is a hospital for sinners 00:50 welcome to Urban Report Pastor Hill. 00:52 Thank you, glad to be here. 00:54 So, tell us a little bit about your background, 00:57 tell us a little bit about where you're from, 01:00 do you have any siblings? 01:03 My father was a Seventh-day Adventist Pastor, 01:05 my mother was a Church School Teacher, 01:08 they both attended Oakwood College. 01:10 The family consisted of four boys and one girl 01:15 and two of the brothers were Adventist Pastors. 01:21 My oldest brother, Franklin, 01:22 passed away a couple of years ago, 01:24 and my youngest brother, Halloren is more into radio work 01:30 and TV work. 01:32 He's an amazing producer too, I've heard some of his music 01:36 and his tracks and he's talented... blessed. 01:40 Yes, he likes that and so... that was our family 01:43 we grew up in a home that really was very positive 01:47 about the church and that is that they were 01:50 very careful not to say anything negative 01:53 about the church around us. 01:55 My mother would even go into 01:57 Pig Latin if she wanted to mention something about a member 02:01 and they were really trying to keep it really careful that 02:06 the people in the church were basically good people 02:09 and they didn't talk about them around us 02:11 so we thought the church was 02:13 very good... as a place... to be a part of. 02:16 Ah ha, they didn't want... they didn't want you to think 02:19 anything negative about the church at all, 02:21 would you say that your parents 02:23 played a big role in you becoming a pastor? 02:25 Oh yes, yes, just being around them... 02:29 they were very upbeat people, positive people 02:32 and my father never 02:35 pushed either of us that became pastors to be a pastor, 02:40 he just seemed to enjoy himself... 02:43 we would go to Camp Pitch... 02:46 that was an event that took place before Camp Meeting 02:49 where the preachers helped put up the tents, 02:52 and all the preachers there... we knew personally, 02:55 they seemed to be very happy, positive people 02:57 and so we just had a knack of leaning toward liking pastors 03:02 and liking the church. 03:04 So you were a pastor, Dr. Hill is a pastor 03:09 and your other brother was a pastor as well 03:14 correct? Pr. Hill: Yes... 03:15 Okay, wow! three pastors! And what did your dad do? 03:18 Well, he was an Adventist Pastor... a regular pastor 03:22 he was one of the first hired in... I think, 1946... 03:26 as a pastor coming out of Oakwood 03:29 when they were just developing Black Conferences 03:32 and so, that was just our life... the church. 03:35 Jason: Wow! Pr. Hill: The church... 03:37 So, I want to get... because there's a lot of meat 03:41 that we have to cover and you oftentimes hear that... 03:45 that saying... that the church is a hospital for sinners, 03:48 you disagree with that 03:50 and I want to find out why... why that is... 03:55 Well, if you ask almost anyone to tell you 04:00 where the thought or the expression 04:04 "The Church is a hospital for sinners" came from, 04:08 you would get very different answers 04:11 and I asked somebody recently, just a few days ago, 04:15 where did you 04:17 get that statement... how did you hear it first? 04:19 And they just named a pastor... 04:21 then I asked another person right around... 04:23 and they said, "Well, I just heard it at church" 04:25 and so, finding an originator of the first person to state it 04:31 or write it... I think you would find it very difficult 04:35 some people even say that Saint Augustine originated it 04:39 or Chrysostom originated the statement 04:42 but the problem comes in when you try to find a primary 04:45 reference for either men... you can't find one. 04:49 Yeah and it seems like it's generational 04:52 like this has been passed down from generation to generation 04:55 to generation because I've heard it 04:56 I mean... all throughout my life 04:59 and I couldn't tell you where it came from either. 05:01 Well and most... and I was like that too, 05:03 that's why I said, "Let me try to find out" 05:07 and surprisingly, I thought I had kind of 05:10 nailed it down... when I say, in my booklet, 05:14 that Morton T. Kelsey originated it, 05:17 Morton T. Kelsey was an Episcopal Priest 05:20 and a Writer and kind of a Counselor 05:25 and he was born in 1817 and then 05:30 as I began to still kind of verify it 05:33 because I had a book that he states it in, 05:37 and in his book he says this, on page 40... 05:40 I think it's 42 and 43 he says, 05:42 "The Church is not a museum for saints, 05:47 but it is a hospital for recovering sinners. " 05:53 And boy! I said, "I have it, I have it," 05:56 but as I continued to try to find the origin, 06:00 I was very surprised to find out 06:03 that "Dear Abby" in 1964 April the 1st, 06:10 made a statement in a newspaper, in her column, 06:14 and there was a couple that had been 06:17 living together for 32 years 06:18 and they wanted to get back to church 06:20 but they had not been married yet... 06:23 they had a few kids, so they wrote to her... 06:25 they felt like they were too sinful 06:26 to be accepted in the church, 06:29 so they said, "What shall we do?" 06:31 And she said, 06:33 "I believe that if you go to the church 06:35 and talk to the pastor, he'll work out a plan for you 06:39 and you can kind of quietly get married 06:42 and then just be a regular member of the church. " 06:45 And in that context, she said, 06:48 "Remember, the church is a hospital for sinners," 06:51 that was back in 1964 and I believe now 06:55 that more people could have gotten it from "Dear Abby" 06:59 than any place else. 07:01 Yeah, yeah, that's a possibility, 07:04 I think it's interesting that you said 07:06 that they felt like they were too sinful to join the church, 07:09 you see... I mean... that's what the devil wants you to think 07:12 because you've gone so far away from God 07:17 that he wants you to think that 07:18 there's no turning back that God doesn't want you 07:20 but we know... that's not true, 07:22 we know that God wants to save us, 07:24 he wants to save each and every one of us 07:26 but we have to make that choice to follow Him, 07:28 so... 07:30 why do you feel that it's so important 07:32 to share this message with the church? 07:34 Well, basically I believe 07:37 that when you look at the church as a hospital, 07:41 you will begin to make excuses 07:46 for people who are not growing spiritually, 07:49 when you look at the church as a hospital, 07:53 church discipline either completely goes away 07:57 or is rarely applied because a person can say, 08:00 "Well, I'm just sick... " and who would want to be 08:04 hurting or causing a sick person to even suffer more? 08:07 "We're all recovering so just have mercy on me. " 08:11 So are you saying that people are getting complacent? 08:14 Are you saying that people use that saying 08:17 to just be stuck in their ways and become habitual sinners? 08:21 Yes, I believe that... that... 08:23 that they begin to make excuses for others 08:26 and make excuses for themselves, and so... 08:29 and I think that oftentimes, people sincerely believe 08:32 if they know somebody who is not attending church, 08:35 either they're completely a non-Christian 08:39 but even those who were once Christians, 08:42 to encourage and to come back, 08:44 and they say, "Well, I'm too bad... " 08:45 "Oh, the church is a hospital for sinners... " 08:47 you'll be fine... just come on back, 08:49 "We're all sinners... " they'll say something like that. 08:51 Ah ha... now, what do you think about 08:55 people in the church that... they say, "Don't judge me... " 09:00 or telling people not to be so judgmental? 09:03 What do you think about that situation? 09:07 I think, in the context of judging a person 09:11 and not knowing their actual motives 09:13 is not something we should do, 09:17 but in the same chapter it talks about "Judge not... " 09:21 also, continues by saying that you should be able to 09:25 recognize people by their fruit, 09:27 you know... 09:29 Not to cut you off but... it's a part of this... 09:33 there... you have that verse in the Bible 09:37 that also talks about "no man knows a man's heart" 09:40 or something along those lines, 09:42 but then you also have the verse 09:44 that you're talking about... with the fruit... 09:46 "by their fruit, you shall know them" 09:48 so, unpack that. 09:51 Well, I think sometimes, 09:53 people can assume they can tell... 09:56 will the person will be saved or lost. 09:59 They'll make a judgment call, and they'll say, 10:02 "They'll never make it to heaven" 10:03 and based on how they are conducting themselves, 10:06 they probably wouldn't, but what they can't know 10:10 is if the person will change or make a decision 10:13 to turn around, so a judgment like that... 10:16 as sometimes the Jews did... they would look at the Gentiles 10:19 and say, "Oh, they're lost... they can work on the Sabbath 10:22 but we don't work on the Sabbath 10:23 because they're not going to be saved anyway" 10:25 and if you make a judgment like that, 10:28 I think that's out of place, 10:30 but I think by the same token 10:32 if there's someone whose openly sinning, 10:36 let's say they are in a situation where they are 10:39 committing adultery or fornication, 10:42 they're drinking, they're smoking, 10:44 they're going to all types of un-Christian environments, 10:48 you can say, "You are not following God, 10:52 if you continue to openly do these things... 10:56 or even secretly... because you're out of His will" 10:58 and so, you can tell them, 11:01 "You need to get to God, you need to turn around" 11:03 that's a judgment call, people can make judgment calls 11:07 and they do when they say that a person is a good person. 11:10 That's a judgment call, 11:12 you don't really know their heart, 11:13 you don't even know what they do in secret, 11:16 but based on what you kind of see, you say, 11:18 "Oh, they're good... they're just... 11:20 they're going to probably be right in heaven" 11:22 you're making a call... and you might be surprised 11:24 if you get to heaven and you don't see them. 11:26 Hmmm... hmmm... yeah... I think it's also a fine line 11:31 because you don't want to throw rocks 11:33 if you're living in a glass house, so to speak. 11:35 Right, right, right, right, right. 11:37 So, if you're telling somebody, 11:39 "You know, you shouldn't be smoking, 11:41 you shouldn't be drinking because, 11:43 you know, it's not in God's will" 11:45 but then, you're going and smoking 11:47 and drinking every now and then, 11:48 it's like you have to get the mote out of your own eye 11:51 before you can get the speck out of your brother's eye 11:53 but that's very interesting information, 11:56 so tell us a little bit more about what's in this booklet. 12:00 This booklet is really seeking to do one thing, 12:06 it's trying to say, "When you look at the church, 12:11 don't look at the church as a hospital, 12:15 but look at the church as an Army" 12:18 and so, there are several 12:21 descriptions of the church in Scripture, 12:23 the church is described as a building at times 12:26 it's described as the Body of Christ 12:29 it's described as a vineyard, it's described as a woman 12:33 but you don't have it ever described as a hospital. 12:37 You do have statements about people being sick in the Bible, 12:42 but the amazing thing when Israel came out of Egypt 12:47 we're told that there was not 12:50 one sick person among them 12:52 and they were in the millions, maybe 2 or 3 millions 12:55 and the expression that there was no sick person among them 12:59 was talking about physical sickness, 13:01 but it was to illustrate what God could do for people 13:04 spiritually... within His church, 13:06 you see the great text in the Bible 13:09 is in Jeremiah 8:22, when it just asks a question, 13:14 "Is there no balm in Gilead, is there no Physician there?" 13:18 And it continues... but the basic idea... 13:21 if Christ is the Great Physician, 13:23 why won't He heal sick people spiritually 13:28 as He did when He was on earth 13:31 healing people physically 13:33 there were whole villages 13:34 but there was not one sick person there 13:37 because Jesus had passed through it 13:40 so in His own church... why would He just let people 13:43 remain sick two years, three years, thirty years 13:46 and He won't heal them? 13:47 Because the great call for Christ just says, 13:51 "I didn't come to call the righteous 13:52 but sinners to repentance. " 13:54 Jason: Hmmm... hmmm... 13:56 The way Christ heals a person 13:58 is He forgives their sins if they're sincere, 14:02 so everybody in the church can become well 14:05 by having sins forgiven. 14:08 Yes and that's not to say 14:11 that you're once saved... always saved. 14:13 Correct? Because I think, then, a lot of people... 14:15 some people might misconstrue that 14:17 and we definitely don't want them to be mistaken that 14:20 once saved... always saved... that's not the case. 14:23 And so, have you ever pastored hospitalized "sinners?" 14:30 Yes, there have been people that chronically complain 14:36 about how hurt they are, how offended they have been... 14:42 they've been... how offended... someone has treated them 14:49 in a way that the church is just a terrible place 14:53 and so they threaten to leave, they talk about... 14:58 "There are a whole lot of hypocrites in this church... 15:00 there's not enough love in this church" 15:01 and they go on and on... 15:03 and usually they don't do much work 15:04 in terms of bringing souls to Christ 15:07 because they are sick... whether they know it or not 15:10 and so, I pastor people like that... 15:13 like most pastors have... 15:15 and then there are the other people... 15:16 they have a sweetness about them, 15:18 they have a great desire to bring souls to Jesus Christ, 15:22 they love the Lord, 15:23 they don't talk about the mistreatment they received, 15:27 they just kind of say, 15:28 "This is just a part of Satan's work 15:31 to try to dishearten me or discourage me 15:33 but I will not be that. " 15:34 Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... so let me ask you this, 15:38 how do we... how do we make that shift... 15:41 how do we change that paradigm? 15:43 That was a great question, 15:45 I believe that the best way to look at this whole concept is 15:50 to say, "What's the best thing to do 15:52 for people that come into the church 15:55 or are already in the church?" 15:56 There's a statement 15:58 in the Spirit of Prophecy that says this, 16:01 "The best medicine that we can give members 16:05 is to give them work to do, not sermonizing... 16:08 but give them something to do 16:10 this will strengthen them in a great way" 16:13 and so the church... instead of being a hospital, 16:15 where we're constantly treating people, 16:17 becomes a place where we're constantly training people... 16:21 equipping people to work for souls. 16:24 Jason: Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... 16:26 so that's how the church should function 16:28 it's to equip people to get out, go work and go win souls 16:31 but the reformation has to take place... 16:34 or the revival has to take place within the church 16:38 before they can go out and win souls. 16:41 Right... I was in... I pastored in Oakland 16:45 and so... two people got a handbill 16:48 and they were about to break up their marriage 16:51 and they just said, "Let's go to this Revelation Seminar" 16:54 and they attended 16:56 and they were not regular-going church people, 17:00 the gentleman... he would wear a nice bright yellow suit 17:06 with yellow shoes, gold in his mouth, 17:10 driving a Cadillac and... so they came to the meeting 17:15 and they attended very regularly and they were baptized. 17:20 They were on the roll, 17:22 they were baptized in the Immanuel Temple Church 17:25 in Oakland and so they got baptized 17:27 and so... it just came to my mind... 17:29 I said, "Why don't I have them do a Revelation Seminar?" 17:33 And boy! they did not like that idea. 17:37 But my idea was... 17:39 I want to put them to work as soon as possible 17:41 and so, they finally gave in, 17:44 because I was kind of determined, 17:46 I said, "I'll be there every night with you 17:48 I have the book... the same book I use, 17:50 I'm going to give you that same book, 17:52 you just do one lesson at a time" 17:54 and so they finally consented 17:55 and they hadn't gone to college or anything 17:58 but... you know... so they had some challenges 18:01 reading certain words... even. 18:02 They got up there, both of them, every time we had the Seminar 18:06 and then all their relatives came out, 18:08 they finished the Seminar and at this point... 18:12 they have been in the church now for nine years 18:16 leading on as a deacon that has keys to the church 18:19 and his wife is a Sabbath School Superintendent 18:23 and I think it was them becoming active right away 18:26 that has helped them remain in the church. 18:28 Wow! yeah it's not like come in and then forget them 18:33 they come in, we embrace them and equip them 18:36 to go out and teach others. 18:37 Pr. Hill: Yes, yes, yes. 18:39 All right, that's amazing, what are some Scriptures 18:43 that can support what's in your booklet? 18:46 I think one of the very best Scriptures 18:50 that talks about this idea 18:53 is in 2nd Timothy chapter 2 and verse 3 19:00 and here's what it says, 19:01 it says, "Thou therefore endure hardness, 19:05 as a good soldier of Jesus Christ" 19:08 "Timothy... I want you to be a tough soldier 19:16 for Jesus Christ," and so, that one Scripture there 19:19 is a very powerful Scripture that talks about this 19:22 and then as we think about Christ... looking for a church 19:29 ultimately, as Ephesians talks about, 19:31 that doesn't have spot or wrinkle, 19:34 He's coming back for a church that is completely blameless 19:38 now they have to depend on Christ's righteousness 19:42 to become that way and remain that way 19:45 but His church that He's coming for 19:48 will have a bunch... a whole group... 19:52 of dedicated, righteous people 19:55 who love Him and work for Him with all their hearts. 19:58 Yeah, He's coming for a purified bride. 20:00 Pr. Hill: Yes, yes He is. 20:02 Man! there's so much in this booklet, 20:08 how can people get this booklet, 20:11 how can they contact you, 20:13 how can they get in touch with you so they can get this? 20:15 They can just e-mail me at 20:21 ByronHill5153@me. com 20:28 that's: me. com 20:30 and they'll be able to contact me 20:32 and we can discuss about how they can get the booklet. 20:36 Oh, wonderful and what inspired you to write this... 20:40 out of all topics that you could have selected, 20:43 what inspired you to write this particular booklet 20:47 at this particular time? 20:50 I think when I got a glimpse 20:53 of what happens when you put people to work... 20:56 I used to teach at an Academy, 20:59 Rio Lindo Academy in Healdsburg, California, 21:01 I taught there for seven years, 21:03 I was the Bible teacher for Sophomores and Juniors 21:07 and also the Church Pastor, 21:08 I had never worked with teenagers this closely 21:11 and so I saw them every school day 21:14 and then on the weekend and so, 21:17 we would have our regular Weeks of Prayer... 21:21 and we had even invited through the time I was there, 21:23 we had Doug Batchelor before, he was well known, 21:26 Lonnie Melashenko, Jose Rojas, 21:29 we would just try to get the best in... 21:31 for Weeks of Prayer for them 21:32 and then we'd have a Student Week of Prayer, so... 21:35 Oh, now explain that... so the students... 21:37 The students would lead out in the Week of Prayer themselves, 21:41 we didn't have a guest speaker, we just... 21:42 the students would speak and then 21:44 that was a Student Week of Prayer, 21:46 so, we were getting close to one... 21:48 and so the Science Teacher, Ron, spoke to me after Chapel, 21:53 he said, "Byron... " he said... 21:56 "We talk about having Week of Prayer 21:59 but we don't do much praying. " 22:01 and I didn't take it as a bad statement, 22:04 and I said, "What do you mean, Ron?" 22:06 he said, "Well, I'm a Chemistry teacher," 22:09 he said, "but I have to get kids in the Lab 22:11 to do experiments 22:12 if they're going to really understand Chemistry" 22:15 and so he said, "I just think 22:17 that a Week of Prayer should have more prayer" 22:19 I said, "Wow! so how can we do it?" 22:22 he didn't know a solution, he just had an idea 22:24 so we talked awhile, came back again 22:27 and so we decided, "Let's try this out... " 22:30 so we said, "Let's have the students 22:32 instead of coming together to hear a Student Speaker... 22:37 let's have them broken up... girls in their own dorms, 22:41 boys in their own dorms, 22:43 we're going to get a Leader 22:44 and he's going to have three others to come to his room, 22:49 during this week, 22:50 they'll have a piece of paper that has a Scripture, 22:53 maybe a Spirit of Prophecy quote 22:55 and then they'll have prayer together 22:56 and that was it. 22:58 We knew the students well enough to say, 22:59 "We can't ask kids to volunteer 23:01 to be Leaders of a spiritual entity" 23:04 so we picked the Leaders 23:06 and so when the kids came back, we announced it 23:09 and they didn't like the idea 23:11 that some of them were chosen as Leaders 23:13 and they would have to have this Reading in their room 23:16 and prayer and all of that, 23:17 they were not happy about it at all 23:19 but that's what was planned... so they did it 23:23 not with happiness or anything 23:26 but they did it, 23:28 and so... the time came, 23:30 the girls and guys were separated, 23:32 most of the week 23:34 and they would have to meet in their rooms 23:36 we didn't hear any good feedback during the week, 23:39 it was just like, "Well, we got seven days, 23:41 it will be over and we'll try the usual back again 23:44 the next time we do it 23:45 and so when the Week of Prayer ended, 23:49 we had a Communion, 23:51 we still kept the girls and guys separate, 23:53 you know, even for Communion 23:55 because we don't want that to be any part of the mixture 23:59 you know, and so, 24:01 one Friday night after this had ended 24:05 I was walking back as I did for six years... 24:08 seven years... while there... back to my house 24:11 and I've always passed the boy's dorm 24:13 and this one time I passed by 24:16 and I heard... upstairs in the chapel, 24:20 the boys singing hymns, it was so shocking, 24:25 I walked there six or seven years... 24:27 so I heard many Friday nights... 24:29 nothing like that, so I said, "I got to go in" 24:31 so I went in, went upstairs 24:32 and there were about 50 guys with regular hymnals 24:36 singing hymns, there was no adult there. 24:38 Jason: Wow! Pr. Hill: I was shocked! 24:40 Jason: Wow! 24:41 And I said, "Why are you all doing this?" 24:43 "Well, we just want to be closer to the Lord, 24:45 we just felt that we should sing some hymns together" 24:48 but they were also meeting in their rooms 24:51 reading their Bibles and some Spirit of Prophecy... 24:54 So, that Prayer Meeting... when you added extra prayer... 24:59 when they were able to commune with God, 25:01 the Holy Spirit worked on them, 25:03 and it just carried on into everyday thing for them. 25:08 And they have something to do that wasn't... 25:11 even though they didn't do it well, 25:13 they don't want to do it, they had something to do 25:16 rather than just sit in the audience. 25:17 That was most of the School 25:19 and it was such an amazing thing that happened, 25:22 I was thankful to God, 25:23 He let me stay there for seven years, 25:25 so I could actually see Him move on people who are put to work. 25:31 Hmmm... and what you said was key, 25:34 that... "being put to work" 25:36 because if people aren't getting involved, 25:39 that they're not being a part of the Service 25:43 or if they don't feel like 25:45 they're a part of the congregation 25:48 and able to get out and do some work, 25:50 then, sometimes they feel like it doesn't apply to them 25:54 especially as a young person 25:57 they feel like the Pastor might be 25:59 talking to their grandparent. 26:02 In the short time that we have left, 26:06 what would you say to a church leader 26:09 or to members in the congregation 26:13 about overcoming sin? 26:17 I would say that... 26:21 one of the important things... 26:23 while I was at the Academy, I heard many times, 26:26 "I got baptized too early and therefore 26:29 I shouldn't have done it" 26:31 my concept is that 26:33 you probably didn't get baptized too early... 26:36 you probably didn't realize that after you got baptized, 26:41 you needed to become a student of the Bible... 26:43 reading it, studying it on a regular basis 26:47 and I believe that anyone that wants to move 26:50 into an Army position, 26:51 has to equip himself with Biblical information 26:56 for his personal life and also to share with others 26:59 and any church with people 27:01 who don't know how to study the Bible, 27:04 is not going to really be able to challenge people 27:09 to be in the Lord's army, 27:10 and so any time you find young people that are into the Bible, 27:15 you're going to find young people 27:17 that are into Christ and into working for Him 27:21 as they would in the army of God. 27:24 Hmmm... that's amazing and it's not a hospital... 27:27 Jason: It's an army... Pr. Hill: It's an army. 27:31 I love that... I can't believe our time is just about up, 27:34 this was so power-packed 27:37 and people definitely need to e- mail you 27:39 and get in touch with you for this booklet. 27:41 Thank you so much for joining us today. 27:43 It was a joy being here. 27:45 Oh, wonderful, I've definitely been provided with a... 27:48 a whole new way of looking at this issue 27:51 and I hope that you have as well 27:53 and received a new perspective today. 27:55 Well, we've reached the end of another Program, 27:57 thanks for joining us, 27:59 join us next time and remember... 28:00 it just wouldn't be the same without you. |
Revised 2016-05-23