Urban Report

Coming Out Ministries

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Yvonne Lewis (Host), Jason Bradley (Host), Ron and Claudia Woolsey


Series Code: UBR

Program Code: UBR000190A

00:01 Have you ever wondered just what goes through a wife's mind
00:02 when her husband tells her that he was once gay?
00:05 Well, stay tuned to meet the husband and wife
00:08 that experienced God's healing power
00:10 my name is Yvonne Lewis and I'm Jason Bradley
00:13 and you're watching Urban Report.
00:40 Hello and welcome to Urban Report.
00:42 Our guests today are Ron and Claudia Woolsey.
00:45 Ron is Pastor of the
00:47 Marshall and Clinton Seventh-day Adventist Churches
00:50 and Claudia is his lovely wife of 23 years.
00:53 Welcome to Urban Report Pastor Ron and Claudia... yeah.
00:57 Ron: Thank you.
00:58 It's so good to have you here, you know,
01:02 Pastor Ron, we... you're no stranger...
01:04 we know you...
01:06 you're no stranger to Dare to Dream,
01:07 you are... you and your team from 'Coming Out' Ministries
01:11 is doing a whole Season's worth of programming
01:15 on Pure Choices and we so appreciate you and your team
01:20 and you approached me about something not too long ago
01:25 and I thought, "Man, what a great idea
01:27 to bring Claudia on and to talk about her perspective
01:32 on this journey... this journey that you've had"
01:35 so, some of our folks might not be familiar with you
01:40 so I'd like to start with you...
01:41 kind of get an overview of your journey
01:45 and then bring Sister Claudia in.
01:47 Okay, well...
01:49 I was raised as a Christian
01:51 and I was a very spiritual young person.
01:53 I went through Christian Schools as a Seventh-day Adventist,
01:57 I was a Student Missionary for a couple of years
02:01 after I was in the Military, I went back to college
02:05 and majored in Theology and Pre-Med,
02:08 my desire was to be a Medical Missionary
02:11 and during that time, I married and we had children
02:16 but I had been struggling with my identity since childhood
02:21 and not a living soul knew that I had this confusion
02:26 but I had been sexually molested
02:28 by a farm hand when I was four-years old
02:30 and it totally derailed me in my thinking
02:33 but I never told a living soul what happened,
02:36 so this thing just festered in my mind... all those years
02:39 until I was just out of control
02:44 and I thought that marriage would be the solution
02:48 to my issues but I warn young people today
02:53 that marriage is not the solution to any problem,
02:56 it can be the beginning of woes in fact...
02:59 if you're not married for the right reasons
03:01 to the right person and with God's blessing
03:04 and I soon realized that I had made a terrible mistake
03:07 to marry a young lady
03:10 who was planning on being a pastor's wife or missionary wife
03:13 for the rest of her life
03:14 and I knew that I was going to be a terrible disappointment
03:19 to her not long after we were married
03:22 but our marriage lasted for two-and-a-half years
03:26 during that time, we had two children
03:27 and then, I was just overwhelmed with my confusion,
03:32 my frustration, my tendencies and...
03:35 I felt that God was not answering my prayers
03:40 to take the "gay" away, I was one of those
03:44 who felt that God should be able to take it away.
03:46 And did she know... did your wife at the time...
03:49 did she have any idea that this was a struggle?
03:52 Not a clue, no one...
03:53 not a living person knew that I had this struggle.
03:56 Although I was repeatedly victimized...
03:59 molested during grade school and other times
04:02 but it was always so private and I would not tell anyone.
04:06 So, I ended up relying... I broke up our marriage
04:12 in great frustration, I gave up on God,
04:15 I gave up on family, I just... finally just accepted
04:20 my fate... you know, who wouldn't want...
04:23 I thought that I was just born to be...
04:25 and went into the gay life.
04:27 Did the media play any role
04:29 in your decision to walk away from the marriage
04:33 and to just immerse yourself into that lifestyle?
04:37 No, the media did not because
04:38 I was not very much involved in media,
04:41 I was a very spiritual person.
04:43 It was the... I think the... the molestation
04:47 that... in other words...
04:49 I was sexualized at a very young age
04:52 before I was equipped to even understand
04:56 or deal with sexuality
04:57 so by the time I was old enough to know about birds and bees,
05:01 I had ten years of...
05:02 I had started on the wrong direction.
05:03 And at that time it wasn't as "socially acceptable" either.
05:08 Oh, it wasn't socially acceptable at all.
05:10 I didn't know a living person who was gay.
05:12 I just felt... something was terribly wrong
05:14 and I didn't know how to deal with it and how to cope with it,
05:16 so, you know, I was struggling all alone
05:19 with no resources, no one to talk to,
05:22 the church wasn't talking about the issue,
05:24 I was just overwhelmed...
05:26 just totally overwhelmed until I just gave up.
05:29 Hmmm... hmmm... and so,
05:30 at what point did you meet Claudia?
05:32 Well, I met Claudia when she was in Grade School
05:36 and I was in High School,
05:39 so I wasn't interested in that kind of a relationship
05:43 because she was a friend of my sister's,
05:45 both of my sisters who brought their girlfriends around
05:49 to meet their brothers in high school,
05:51 but, I was in the 9th Grade... see...
05:53 and she was in the 8th Grade,
05:54 I mean, that's two different worlds.
05:55 Grade School and High School, so that's...
05:58 Well, see, that makes it a little...
06:00 that closes the gap a little bit though
06:02 you say, 9th Grade and 8th Grade
06:04 I was thinking like, maybe like,
06:06 maybe 10th and maybe 7th or something like that.
06:09 But it was still Grade School and High School,
06:12 see, a big difference. Yvonne: Right, right.
06:13 Jason: You felt like you were robbing the cradle?
06:16 Well, no, I wasn't interested, you know,
06:19 because I was in High School, see...
06:22 a Freshman in High School, yeah, I'd arrived, see...
06:25 So you met Claudia but you guys weren't talking
06:29 as boyfriend and girlfriend or anything like that,
06:33 you were doing your High School thing.
06:35 What did you think when you met Ron, Claudia?
06:37 Well, his friends and I... sorry, his sisters and I...
06:41 were friends... as he said
06:43 so I would go hang out at their house,
06:45 being with his sisters
06:47 and his sisters just happened to have
06:50 these really cute brothers, you know
06:51 and so, that's just how we started being friends,
06:55 and then we ended up going to the same Boarding Academy
06:58 and he was surprised when I showed up
07:01 because he went in the summer, ahead of time
07:03 and then, later I showed up
07:05 and he couldn't quite figure out why I was there,
07:08 and during those years at Academy together,
07:10 we were just good friends.
07:12 And what kind of family did you grow up in?
07:14 I had a wonderful family and I had parents who were so loving
07:21 and so supportive of everything I ever did,
07:24 they were well-grounded spiritually
07:28 we lived... they made the decision to move to the country
07:32 when I was just six-years old
07:33 and so we grew up on a dairy farm
07:35 and we were there together
07:37 doing all the things you do on a farm,
07:41 my parents were just always there for me
07:45 and I think that was the one thing
07:48 that has lasted throughout my life,
07:51 I could always depend on my parents
07:53 and it has given me great security
07:56 that's the word is...
07:57 when you have security in your childhood,
08:01 it just... it gives you something
08:03 that you can't explain, really.
08:05 Yvonne: That's true.
08:07 It's something that you can always count on
08:08 and because of that, I have an accurate picture of God as well.
08:11 Yvonne: Hmmm...
08:13 My parents never failed me, in my opinion,
08:15 they weren't perfect, that's not what I mean,
08:17 but they never turned away from me
08:20 no matter what I did, right or wrong
08:23 and so, that gave me a sense of who God was.
08:26 Hmmm... hmmm... where did you grow up?
08:28 In the Madison, Tennessee area.
08:30 Okay, all right, so you're a Tennessee girl?
08:33 Claudia: Yes, I am.
08:34 Jason: It's probably not that far from here.
08:36 Yvonne: Yes, true, true. Claudia: Probably not.
08:39 So, you grew up in a very stable environment
08:42 and you felt very secure in your upbringing,
08:46 Ron, were your parents... what were they like, again?
08:51 My parents were Christians and they were very
08:54 sacrificial Christians in putting all six of us children
08:59 through parochial schools, private schools
09:01 and church schools
09:03 and my father also was a dairy man...
09:06 a dairy farmer...
09:08 but my dad was a "child... raising children"
09:12 he was married when he was seventeen...
09:15 a father when he was eighteen
09:18 and he was totally unequipped to be a parent
09:22 so he had... was very lacking in that area
09:25 though, he... years later we realized
09:29 how much he really loved his family and his children,
09:32 he was a very devoted husband
09:35 and very much loved all of his children.
09:37 So, the two of you had...
09:41 you both came from intact families...
09:43 Both of you had father and mother
09:45 but Ron, you dealt with the molestation
09:48 from when you were four all throughout your
09:52 High School life too?
09:54 Not High School... it was in Grade School
09:57 but the other factor was my... my father did become
10:01 very emotionally abusive towards me because I...
10:05 in growing up,
10:07 having been traumatized at the age of 4...
10:09 I developed a bed-wetting problem
10:12 which they didn't understand, they thought I was being lazy,
10:16 and my dad not knowing... no one knew why
10:19 but I think it was a physical manifestation
10:23 of an emotional issue and so he became very abusive
10:27 towards me trying to shame me, this was his confession...
10:31 I mean, he was weeping when he broke down
10:35 and just begged me to forgive him
10:37 for trying to shame me into overcoming that
10:40 but that drove a wedge between us
10:42 and so I grew up feeling alienated,
10:44 unloved, unaccepted,
10:46 unapproved of... by my father
10:48 and that was another very strong factor
10:50 that pushed me towards the gender that was accepting
10:57 when I found a man who did appreciate
11:00 and did show affection and so forth...
11:03 I was just a... very vulnerable for that...
11:05 I was a very easy victim.
11:07 Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... hmmm...
11:08 so at what point did you two connect romantically?
11:12 Thirty years later...
11:15 Yvonne: Wow!
11:19 While we were in Academy,
11:21 he had special friendships with several of my girlfriends
11:25 who were... you know... my... not a roommate
11:29 but they were just very close classmates,
11:32 and so he had friendships with them
11:35 and we just were good buddies,
11:38 we spent a lot of time eating at the same table in the cafeteria
11:42 you know and things like that
11:44 and we always enjoyed each other's
11:46 conversation and... and so forth...
11:49 but there was never any romantic issue at all... with us.
11:53 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... hmmm...
11:55 And so it was... 30 years later
11:58 that after I went through a very devastating divorce,
12:04 I was married for 19 years to someone else
12:06 and had one child at that point
12:09 and that marriage ended and I went through
12:14 the first real trauma in my life at that point.
12:16 I didn't think I'd make it, it was extremely painful
12:22 and yet, today, I can be friends with my ex-husband
12:27 and we worked to make a good family... stable...
12:32 as stable as we could at that point
12:34 for our son... and so I learned a lot through that experience.
12:39 Yvonne: What did you learn?
12:40 I learned that many things in life are simply choices.
12:45 Yvonne: Hmmm...
12:47 Just because something tragic happens to you,
12:51 doesn't mean there's a certain outcome
12:53 that has to happen
12:54 and so, as I worked my way through this...
12:57 and I grieved extremely, everyone who knew me just
13:01 couldn't believe how hard I was grieving over all of this
13:05 and I realized that part of it was...
13:07 I felt like I had failed
13:09 because I had the Christian background,
13:13 I had the understanding and so much information about
13:16 what a good marriage was supposed to be
13:18 but still it had failed...
13:19 but you know, when someone else decides
13:22 to walk away... you can't stop them
13:24 because they have their choices to make.
13:29 And so, the pain was extremely hard for me
13:34 and I did go through a very strong struggle at that point
13:39 with my relationship with God as well as with other people
13:44 and so forth and it caused me to doubt
13:46 and it was the first time I really had to look
13:48 at what I was all about. Yvonne: Hmmm...
13:51 And so, I did tremendous amount of reading during that time,
13:56 I did a lot of studying and I decided... after all of this...
14:00 that I was not going to spend the rest of my life
14:03 being miserable and unhappy,
14:05 I knew a lot of friends who have gone through divorces
14:08 and they just hated each other and so...
14:11 that feeling of rejection just continued on and on and on...
14:16 and they... they... it just
14:17 flavored everything in their lives
14:20 and I decided... I was not going to
14:22 spend the rest of my life that way.
14:24 Did you have a strong support system?
14:26 I did because I had my parents,
14:28 we were right there in that same area
14:30 and so I had them
14:32 and I wouldn't have been able to make it without them
14:35 and they were such a good example to me
14:39 and we... we just had great friends,
14:41 we've been in that area all my life
14:44 and we had... as a married couple been there
14:47 for 19 years, so I had a lot of support
14:50 and that's very important
14:51 but at the same time when you're going through this
14:53 as a Christian, it's amazing how people just
14:56 kind of... just kind of back...
14:59 and you know why?
15:00 They don't know what to say,
15:01 they don't want to stick their foot in their mouth,
15:04 they don't want to hurt you and they both loved...
15:06 our friends loved both of us as a couple,
15:10 they saw us as a couple and so it was very hard
15:14 for people to know what to do or say.
15:16 What would you say would be a good thing...
15:20 what would have helped,
15:23 would there have been anything that someone could have said
15:25 to you that would have helped?
15:27 What's helpful when someone... when a friend is going through
15:31 a divorce like that and you're friends with both parties,
15:34 what would be helpful to say
15:37 to someone who is going through that?
15:39 I think all you can say is, "We don't know what's going on,
15:45 we don't know why this has happened,
15:47 we just love both of you,"
15:49 and then just put your arm around someone, hug them,
15:52 invite them to your house,
15:54 suddenly you don't go to any friends houses anymore
15:58 because they feel torn if I ask her but I don't ask him...
16:04 and we used to have "them" and so,
16:06 it's hard on your friendships and I would say,
16:10 you just need to love these people separately
16:13 and after a period of time that's what happened.
16:17 So, I would like to just insert right here...
16:20 she's talking about a support group...
16:22 when I was coming...
16:24 when I was coming back to the Lord
16:27 and leaving the Gay life,
16:28 that's when we became re-acquainted
16:32 and her divorce took place almost immediately after that.
16:36 I became a major part of her support group
16:38 for over a year, I would call her
16:42 and pray with her,
16:44 we would pray that her husband would come back,
16:46 I wrote her letters and so we developed that friendship
16:50 through being supportive of each other
16:54 and I had no inclination whatsoever
16:57 of pursuing a romantic relationship
17:01 I was simply trying to be a good Christian friend
17:05 in helping her through this process,
17:07 I had no idea what the Lord was going to do through that.
17:10 Now, Claudia, did you know at the time
17:13 that Ron was coming out of the Gay lifestyle?
17:15 Yes, I knew, all the time he was actually in the Gay life
17:20 that he was living that way,
17:23 his sister and I had remained friends
17:25 and she would see me at times and she'd say,
17:27 "Oh, please keep praying for Ron"
17:29 and so I knew,
17:31 but I didn't know a lot of details.
17:33 I didn't need to know details and so that had been something
17:38 and I had always had a special liking for Ron,
17:41 all the years that I'd known him
17:43 and I couldn't never figure out why
17:44 he couldn't pay any attention to me,
17:46 instead of all these other people...
17:47 Oh, I love that you got that little "dig" in there.
17:54 But as I went through this situation of my own,
18:00 he had come to visit with his brother-in-law at the time
18:04 and they were on a business trip and just came through
18:08 and he said, "Well, is there anyone I know
18:09 in the Nashville area?"
18:11 And he suggested that I was in the area and...
18:14 so they had come by... he told me then
18:17 that he was working his way back
18:19 into a relationship with the Lord,
18:21 he hadn't even been baptized... re-baptized at that point,
18:24 but he told me what was happening
18:27 and I was just thrilled out of my mind
18:30 and I... it was just so exciting
18:32 because I could see the joy in his face
18:35 and I knew what struggles he's been through
18:38 and so, it was just really an exciting time.
18:42 Nice, so at what point did you both decide
18:45 that... wait a minute... there's something brewing here?
18:47 Jason: That was about to be my question.
18:49 Yvonne: I'm sorry, I took your question.
18:50 Oh dear, well as he says, he had been writing just...
18:56 he sent out a Newsletter in the job he was doing
18:59 at the time... that would be... pastoring... he was doing
19:01 and he would just write a personal note at the bottom.
19:03 So, these weren't "love letters" or anything
19:06 because it wasn't at that point
19:08 and he sent a letter saying
19:11 that his church was going to be having a Camp Meeting
19:13 and he invited me and my son to come
19:15 and that's what happened, we went to this Camp Meeting.
19:20 However, you skipped a little detail...
19:23 because I was speaking at a Camp Meeting
19:26 in the Nashville area and she and her family came
19:30 and afterwards as we were about to leave
19:34 she was still grieving and I was trying to comfort her
19:37 about her husband and she finally said,
19:41 "Well, you know, he remarried about three months ago"
19:45 and I said, "Well, Claudia,
19:47 we can't keep praying for him to come back,
19:49 he's married"
19:51 and so, you know, we hugged and said goodbye
19:53 and I was traveling with two other pastors
19:56 and then all of a sudden, going down the freeway
20:01 I just blurted out... "She is available"
20:05 and these other pastors said, "What are you talking about?"
20:08 I said, "Claudia, she's available"
20:10 I had never even thought about that before
20:12 and I was having some issues with
20:14 a single lady in this church I was pastoring...
20:18 she was the only single woman, I was the only single man,
20:20 she was announcing she was going to be Mrs. Pastor,
20:24 so, I had been counseling with these other pastors
20:27 and... so they were kind of shocked
20:29 when I'm now talking about... "She's available,"
20:32 they're thinking, "Who?"
20:33 And that's when it hit me
20:34 that we had developed this friendship
20:37 we had been friends now for over a year,
20:39 and maybe the Lord was working something here
20:44 so that's when I invited her to that other Camp Meeting.
20:48 Yvonne: Oh...
20:49 So I was already beginning to think
20:52 but she didn't know that at the time.
20:54 Right... right... so you went to the Camp Meeting,
20:57 and when you went, were you, Ron, thinking...
21:00 "Oh, okay, this could develop into something
21:04 but you just didn't know?"
21:06 I was being very, very cautious
21:07 because I've been in the Gay life for all those years
21:10 and I was thinking... "you know...
21:11 I'm probably not fit to be a husband... "
21:15 but I prayed about it, I asked the Lord,
21:18 "Would you ever trust me again with a family?"
21:22 And so, evidently He was answering my prayers.
21:26 Yes, yes, were you feeling that you had overcome
21:30 that whole part of your life
21:33 or were you still struggling with that aspect of it?"
21:36 I had totally turned my back on that life
21:38 the way I like to tell it is... using many of the
21:42 principles that we find in the Bible
21:45 and I studied my way out of the Gay life
21:47 simply with the Word of God.
21:48 I found everything that I needed,
21:50 I didn't need counseling or therapy or any of that,
21:54 I just submitted to the Word of God...
21:57 I mean God is... He is a loving heavenly Father,
22:00 He must know what He's talking about,
22:03 I'm the one who needs correction not Him
22:05 and I hung that... my homosexuality
22:10 mentally on the forbidden tree in the Garden of Eden
22:13 and I just said, no matter how delectable
22:16 the fruit on that tree... it's off limits
22:20 it's not an option and I closed that door
22:23 and I started practicing starving that side of myself
22:27 and feeding the new... I wouldn't...
22:29 entertain thoughts in that direction,
22:32 I, you know, I literally, mentally just...
22:34 starved that... I wouldn't go there,
22:37 so I left myself wide open
22:39 for the Lord to lead me in a new direction
22:42 and I was not inclined to be married
22:45 but I had prayed and asked the Lord if He would trust me
22:48 with a family again... and so
22:50 He was leading me down that path.
22:52 Hmmm...
22:53 Now, did you all face any skepticism... like, you know,
22:56 people on the outside looking in and saying,
22:59 Oh well, he hasn't changed...
23:00 Ron: Oh yeah, everyone thought we both were crazy.
23:03 Yeah, people thought I had lost my mind
23:06 when they found out... when we got to the point of...
23:10 of being engaged and planning a wedding and so forth
23:14 and I understand that.
23:16 My own parents... they, of course, had questions
23:19 but as soon as I explained to them
23:22 what I felt and what I observed in Ron
23:25 and what I knew about him then... they were...
23:28 again... they had to be totally supportive
23:30 in every way that they could.
23:32 What had you observed?
23:33 What I had observed... was from 30 years before
23:37 and this is a point I want to make in this Program,
23:41 "People who are gay
23:47 can be kind, loving, gentle,
23:52 honest, talented, smart... "
23:55 and I knew all of these things about Ron,
24:01 I had observed him for four years
24:03 closely as we were in school together
24:05 and he was always... he was funny,
24:08 he was... he was always kind to other people,
24:11 he was just a good person, he had a good character
24:15 and the fact that he fell into this temptation
24:20 and gave up on God for a time...
24:23 didn't change who he was... basically...
24:25 and so, when I knew that he had found his answers
24:29 and was coming back... and I... like I said,
24:32 watched him during that year that he was pastoring
24:35 and heard... the letters he wrote...
24:37 testimonies of what God was doing in his life,
24:42 you know, I had no doubt he had found the answers
24:45 and as we talked more... I knew he had the answers
24:48 that had caused him to go that way in the first place,
24:51 he was still kind and gentle and funny
24:55 and all these other things, you see what I'm saying,
24:58 gay people are people
25:00 and they have a social and sexual dilemma going on
25:05 that confuses them and throws them into much doubt
25:10 and some are more traumatized than others
25:15 but Ron was still basically that person.
25:19 Yvonne: Hmmm...
25:20 I think it's a very important thing to understand
25:23 about people in this particular community.
25:26 I think that's a good point because, so often,
25:30 if you're not familiar with... if you don't have a gay friend
25:35 or somebody that... you know that's in that lifestyle,
25:38 it's just like any... any other culture
25:41 you know, until you know someone of a different culture,
25:44 you make assumptions...
25:45 and those assumptions are not necessarily true.
25:49 You're stereotyping,
25:51 you're making assumptions about people
25:53 that you don't really know but here you are saying that
25:57 you got to know this man... you knew that he was kind,
26:01 that he was funny, that he was spiritual,
26:03 that... that he had all of these qualities
26:06 and he had an issue that he...
26:10 that he... by the time... you guys connected like this
26:15 he had dealt with.
26:17 And he was getting... he was having victory in his life
26:20 and he was sharing that victory with others,
26:22 and he was just on fire about it
26:25 and I knew... if he could have him...
26:26 do all of this and had found those answers
26:29 that... it would be the same
26:31 with the other problems that would come up
26:33 and being married to him, I'll tell you...
26:36 people want to know what's it like
26:37 being married to an ex-Gay,
26:38 it's like being married to any other man...
26:41 Yvonne: How so?
26:43 It can be infuriating...
26:45 Ron: But that's not necessarily true.
26:49 there could be...
26:51 You know... I am married to Ron Woolsey,
26:57 a wonderful man,
26:59 and someone who loves the Lord with all his heart
27:02 and has dedicated himself to sharing that love with others
27:06 and to helping them to find victory in their lives
27:09 and so, I don't treat him any differently than
27:11 I would treat any other man.
27:13 You can't... that's a choice I had to make,
27:15 "This is a man... I'm going to be married to him,
27:18 I'm going to treat him just the same way
27:20 as I would treat any other man... "
27:21 and I gave that same advice to a young lady
27:24 who married someone down in Mexico
27:27 that someone that Ron worked with for several years
27:30 and he has come out of the Gay life
27:31 and then met this wonderful girl and they married
27:35 and that was my advice to her,
27:36 they had us come down to their wedding,
27:38 flew us down there and we were their special guests
27:41 and it was just so exciting and I told her the same thing,
27:45 I said, "You have just married
27:47 a wonderful man... treat him... that way... "
27:52 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... hmmm...
27:54 And, you know, marriage is always a risk
27:57 I don't care who it is,
27:59 you never know if the person you married
28:03 is going to stay the same person.
28:05 Yvonne: That's true...
28:06 We can all change and we all do...
28:07 many women unfortunately marry men and think,
28:10 "Well, I don't like this about him but I'll fix that"
28:13 women... tend to be fixers...
28:15 Jason: That's where they go wrong.
28:17 That's right... that's right... because
28:19 none of us has the right to do that
28:21 and so what I say is, "Just go out and marry anyone
28:24 that is an ex-Gay person... " no, not on your life...
28:27 because you need to know who that person is
28:31 there are good heterosexual men
28:34 and there are bad heterosexual men,
28:37 there are good characters in
28:39 people who have fallen into the Gay life
28:41 and there are people in the Gay life
28:43 who have terrible characters, I wouldn't put a
28:46 risk on them... until they have met the Lord
28:49 and made major changes in their lives
28:52 and proven that you can't just go into this
28:56 blind... you know... and be ridiculous about this,
28:59 but can a person who's been in that lifestyle change?
29:03 Absolutely... Yvonne: Hmmm...
29:05 Jason: Something that I think is important that...
29:07 you get with someone
29:09 and you like the person that they are... today and right now,
29:14 you don't like the person that they could be
29:17 because what if they never become that person?
29:19 That's right... well, I mean...
29:21 yeah, it doesn't matter whether it's
29:23 what relationship is, you've got those issues
29:26 and that's why, you know, as I went through one trauma
29:30 I just decided I was going to be happy,
29:32 I was going to be loving,
29:34 I was going to do my part
29:36 and that's what we all need to do anyway...
29:38 is... we need to do our part
29:40 to try to make any relationship the best that it can be.
29:43 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm...
29:44 And yes there are always problems but
29:47 I have found consistency in Ron...
29:50 and that is one of the things that...
29:53 is the nail that holds us together as a family...
29:56 as a couple because he is very consistent
30:01 and I knew from the very beginning
30:03 when he started talking to me
30:06 and we started developing this relationship,
30:08 I knew how firm he was
30:13 and that he had prayed and asked the Lord
30:15 for second chances and double portions of His Holy Spirit
30:20 and they had done these things
30:22 and I knew that he was open to the possibility
30:25 of having another marriage and another relationship
30:28 and I think this is where a lot of people fall short,
30:31 there have been a number of people
30:33 who have come out of the gay life
30:34 but they think they have to spend the rest of their life
30:37 living in celibacy, that's not God's plan.
30:40 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm...
30:41 Well, celibacy meaning...
30:44 you're celibate if you're not married... but...
30:46 Claudia: Yes, if you're not married...
30:48 of course, but, they won't allow themselves
30:51 to see the possibility
30:52 of being in a heterosexual relationship after that.
30:58 Do you think the question is...
31:01 within many who are ex-Gays that...
31:05 "Well, this is just something that I'll never get into
31:10 a heterosexual relationship because this is who
31:13 I defined myself as... before"
31:15 what do you think about...
31:17 what are some of the thoughts that go through a person's mind
31:23 that were in that lifestyle that have come out
31:26 and now they don't feel like they're automatically "straight"
31:29 they're not heterosexual...
31:32 Claudia: No, it's not instant. Yvonne: Yeah.
31:33 You know I know that there are people
31:36 that come out of the Gay life, they accept the Lord
31:39 and they live a pure life sexually
31:43 but they mentally continue identifying
31:47 as same-sex attracted. Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm...
31:49 and I think every time that you say it... it reinforces it,
31:54 when I came out of the Gay life,
31:57 I was very strongly same-sex attracted
32:00 but I didn't talk about it, I starved it,
32:03 I... you know... I learned to flip the switch
32:07 turn my head... change the channel...
32:08 change the subject, you know,
32:10 all of these things, I...
32:12 there are so many Biblical principles,
32:14 I had to bring every thought into captivity,
32:17 being transformed by the renewing of the mind
32:20 and that... many, many Biblical principles
32:23 and so, I don't think it's being dishonest
32:27 to not talk about same-sex attraction
32:30 I think it is a part of the process of starving it,
32:34 don't bring it up, don't talk about it,
32:37 it's not about being transparent,
32:39 it's... it's... you don't keep regurgitating it,
32:41 you don't keep bringing up something you're trying to bury
32:45 quit resurrecting the dead, right...
32:48 you bury it, you let it die
32:50 and the old man died and you bury it
32:53 and you leave it there,
32:54 if temptation comes, we have Biblical principles
32:58 on how to deal with the temptation,
33:00 don't identify with the temptation,
33:02 that's Satan's plan for your life...
33:04 it's not God's plan, so I don't allow myself
33:08 to be identified by Satan's plan for my life
33:12 but by God's plan for my life.
33:14 Hmmm... hmmm... so what would you say...
33:18 if you could give five steps basically
33:22 to overcoming the whole temptation,
33:25 what five steps would you give?
33:27 Well, in my book, I have about 14 different...
33:33 a list of things the Lord led me through,
33:36 first of all you need to realize
33:40 that God loves you just immensely,
33:43 and it doesn't matter whether you love Him back or not,
33:46 He still loves you, He loves the lost,
33:48 he died for enemies
33:51 and when you start realizing how much God loves you,
33:55 it gives you value,
33:57 it gives you worth,
33:59 it helps you want to face yourself honestly,
34:03 look at yourself... size yourself up based upon
34:08 His picture and His standards and if you
34:13 will make that commitment of putting God first in your life,
34:17 trusting that He is a loving heavenly Father
34:20 and everything He asks of you is out of love for you
34:25 and concern for your well-being
34:27 which means... like any child growing up
34:31 you have to deny your own inclinations
34:34 in order to please Daddy and to follow Daddy's counseling,
34:40 follow Daddy's guidance and so,
34:42 especially knowing that we have a fallen human nature,
34:46 we need to realize that
34:47 not everything that I struggle with
34:50 is for my good, I'm fallen,
34:51 so, I don't know how many steps...
34:54 we're just plowing through here...
34:55 Yvonne: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:57 The thing is... it's just a matter of using logic,
34:59 God says, "Come now, let us reason together"
35:02 and you just go through this reason... putting Him first
35:05 and trusting that everything He says,
35:10 His counsel, His commandments,
35:12 His warnings, His reproofs are all out of love
35:15 and realizing His plan
35:17 is much greater than anything we could imagine,
35:20 He sees much farther down the road than we can see,
35:23 it's a matter of trusting and obeying
35:27 and walking with Him and the Bible says,
35:30 "We are to present our bodies... a living sacrifice. "
35:34 If it doesn't please the Lord, let it go,
35:37 no matter how strong the temptation or the urge
35:40 and He gives us the strength to do that,
35:42 He says, "My grace is sufficient... "
35:44 Yvonne: Yes...
35:46 His strength is sufficient for that.
35:47 That's good, that's good, so, Sister Claudia, when you...
35:52 once you made the decision to marry Ron,
35:57 what did people say to you, what did they say?
36:01 Well, they just... they... several just said,
36:05 "You're crazy... "
36:07 yeah... they said, "You can't do this!"
36:09 that was the main thing, they said, "You can't do this"
36:11 they knew I had a son at the time.
36:13 Ron: And wasn't that your maid of honor?
36:15 Yeah, and she was my dear friend
36:19 but she was so concerned,
36:20 she knew the trauma I had just been through
36:22 and had been there for me through all that
36:24 and she thought that I was just on the rebound
36:27 that I just didn't... I had no good judgment
36:31 at that point, and so, she says,
36:33 "Well, just... then at least put out fleece"
36:35 and I said, "But I don't need to"
36:38 and she said, "Well, would you do it for me?"
36:41 And I thought, "Well, I'm not sure that works that way,
36:44 I'm not sure that's the way God works it... "
36:47 but I thought, "Okay, I will... "
36:50 and so I did and my fleece was
36:54 that if God wanted me to marry Ron
36:57 and do it then because we decided,
37:00 "What was the point in waiting?"
37:02 We had known each other for 30 years...
37:05 How long after you started dating did you get married?
37:08 Ron: We had one date.
37:11 Jason: We are impressed.
37:13 You know, she told my sister,
37:16 "I don't know what he's up to but I wish he'd hurry up"
37:19 so... why wait?
37:21 Oh, well, his sister chaperoned us
37:26 on our... going back to our high school...
37:28 for a high school reunion and so, it was over that weekend
37:31 and driving from Tennessee to East Tennessee and back
37:35 and so forth... and like... we had all those years
37:39 of past life that we had known each other and so forth
37:43 and I dearly loved his family anyway,
37:46 so that wasn't an issue either but where was I?
37:50 Yvonne: Well, actually, you know what?
37:52 Let's talk a little bit about that weekend
37:55 because we still don't know what was the impetus to actually
37:59 switch from platonic to romantic
38:01 so what actually happened
38:03 that made that switch go off in your head?
38:06 It was the campfire at the Camp Meeting...
38:08 Yvonne: Oh... Claudia: That's what it was...
38:10 And I thought it was Gatlinburg...
38:11 crossing the street.
38:13 Well that too... that comes later,
38:14 but what happened when this Camp Meeting
38:17 that he asked my son and myself to come to,
38:19 he was playing his Accordion,
38:22 we were around the campfire lake that evening
38:25 and we were just singing all those songs
38:27 that we had grown up singing and so forth
38:28 and it was just a really good time,
38:30 it had been a very good spiritual weekend
38:33 and... so... we were just having fun
38:36 and he walked me back to the campsite where I was staying
38:40 and then he... he wanted to know if it would be possible
38:44 for us to go to Homecoming together,
38:47 Yvonne: Oh...
38:48 And that was all just... that was all
38:50 and then later he decided we could call it a date
38:53 and when we went on that homecoming weekend,
38:57 his sister kind of got lost somewhere along the way
39:02 Ron: She was a good chaperone. Yvonne: She made herself scarce.
39:05 She just disappeared and we were walking through the town
39:09 down the streets of Gatlinburg in Tennessee
39:12 and we went across the street and up to that point
39:15 there had been no communication other than verbal
39:19 and Ron reached out and took my hand
39:22 as we were crossing the street,
39:24 I thought, "Well, that was very gentlemanly of him"
39:27 and at that moment... I did not hear words
39:31 but it was the same as...
39:33 because the Lord just gave me a message
39:36 and he said, "I have seen your grief,
39:39 I've watched all of your tears flow... "
39:42 and He said, "I have a surprise for you...
39:45 and this is it. "
39:46 Yvonne: Oh...
39:47 So, I knew then... that something was going to happen
39:51 and when we got back to my home in the Nashville area,
39:54 and Ron was leaving to go back to Arkansas,
39:58 he invited me to come for Thanksgiving
40:01 and then we went over and had Thanksgiving
40:05 and were there for several days with him and the family
40:08 and his sister lived in the area and his parents as well
40:11 so we had a lot of time there together
40:14 and then... the next thing I knew,
40:18 he took me for a walk out in the woods and took me to a cave
40:21 and... and... and... he proposed...
40:25 Ron: That was a beautiful setting.
40:29 After one date?
40:30 Claudia: Hmmm, kind of sort of.
40:32 See, I heard in my mind... was the green light...
40:35 "hurry up... " saying, "hurry up"
40:36 and so when I proposed to her
40:39 she turned to me and started laughing
40:40 and I'm going... "What is this?"
40:43 And she said, "I always knew you were slow...
40:46 but I never thought it would take you 30 years
40:49 see, I've been in love with you since the Eighth Grade"
40:52 Yvonne: Awww...
40:53 So that was the answer I got.
40:55 And that's not to say... that was just...
40:58 that was puppy love, I just...
41:00 that was a crush I had since the Eighth Grade
41:02 but our lives had just been very separate all those years
41:06 and here's the thing... in my grief of my...
41:10 my situation... I said, "Lord, I don't know
41:14 if you ever want me to be married again or not...
41:15 and I don't care, one way or the other,
41:18 if you want me to marry someone,
41:20 you're going to have to find him and make it very obvious to me"
41:25 and I said, "But, you know, it would be really nice
41:28 if it could be someone I've known from the past"
41:30 Yvonne: Really?
41:31 And that was just one of my prayers to God
41:33 and so then when this started happening, I'm just... going,
41:36 "Wow! now... I had that special message in Gatlinburg"
41:39 and then this pact with this friend
41:42 who said, "Please put out a fleece for me"
41:45 this is after the proposal
41:47 and the wedding plans were already going
41:49 and I said, "Okay, I will... "
41:50 So my fleece was this.
41:52 If I married Ron, I would be leaving Tennessee
41:55 and moving to Arkansas with him
41:56 and I had a home to sell and so I said,
42:01 "Lord, if you want me to marry Ron and do it now,
42:04 then... and not a year from now or whatever,
42:06 then, I'm asking... " and this was a silent prayer,
42:09 "I'm asking that you have someone come
42:14 and offer to buy my house" that was it,
42:18 that was on Thursday, I went to church that weekend
42:23 and I worked in the Children's Department
42:26 and one of the teachers came up to me afterward
42:28 and she said, "Claudia, I hear that you're getting married... "
42:31 and I said, "Yes, I am... and it's true,"
42:33 she was so excited and then she says,
42:35 "Well, then are you going to be moving away?"
42:38 and I said, "Yes" and I told her about that
42:40 and then she said, "Oh, well, I want to buy your house"
42:43 Yvonne and Jason: Wow!
42:46 And I said, "But you've never even been to my house...
42:48 you've never seen my house" she says...
42:49 and I said, "It's a log house...
42:51 it's one that we built from all these old materials and it's.. "
42:54 She said, "Oh! I have always wanted a log house"
42:57 and so, then, I realized it was time to go on up to church
43:02 and I said, "Well, talk to me later about it,"
43:04 she says, "Well, you call me... "
43:06 she says, "How much do you want for it?"
43:07 And I said, "I don't know, I haven't even thought about it"
43:09 and she said, "Well, call me and tell me"
43:12 several days went by,
43:14 I just didn't think anything about it
43:16 you know, I'm still kind of not all there
43:19 and... and she called up... she says,
43:22 "Claudia, aren't you going to call and tell me
43:25 how much you want for the house?"
43:26 then I said, "Well, I didn't think you were really serious"
43:28 and she said, "But I am... "
43:30 and I thought, "Wow Lord, you need to just
43:34 really hit me in the head a few times
43:36 and I'll finally get that you're answering my prayer
43:39 that was about as obvious as you can get. "
43:41 Yvonne: Did she buy the house?
43:44 No... is that what I prayed for?
43:47 No... I said, "Lord, have someone come to me
43:51 and offer to buy my house"
43:52 no sign, no realtor, nothing,
43:54 and that's what happened.
43:56 So, then, I had that double assurance too
43:59 and I knew that whatever journey
44:01 we were going to be going on...
44:02 it was going to be okay.
44:04 Wow! did it every cross your mind
44:08 that Ron hadn't gotten the victory,
44:12 were you ever worried once you got married that
44:15 maybe... he hadn't... did you ever wonder?
44:20 I had to think about those things because I had a son
44:24 that was in the middle of all this
44:27 and I had to think about it
44:31 but I saw no indication
44:34 and then I thought something else... you know what?
44:36 "It doesn't matter because he could be this way
44:40 today and if he falls away from the Lord
44:43 and loses his relationship with the Lord,
44:45 anything can happen,"
44:47 I'd had it, experienced it already,
44:50 we don't have any guarantees
44:53 but when I can see that this man kneels beside our bed
44:57 every night and prays faithfully,
44:59 he gets up and has his morning devotions,
45:01 he is consistent in how he treats me
45:04 and now... our children
45:05 because we've had two children together,
45:08 he's consistent about everything he does
45:11 but yes, I had to think about that,
45:14 I had to think about disease, he told me,
45:17 I didn't even ask him if he had been tested for
45:20 possibilities of having HIV or anything like that,
45:23 he told me, he had been tested,
45:26 and so that was a nice relief and a present
45:29 but that's no surety either,
45:31 he could just as well come down with cancer
45:33 or have a heart attack, you know what I mean?
45:35 And it just was something that I was very much at peace about.
45:42 One thing that Claudia said in the past was that
45:46 she was married and she was in a heterosexual marriage,
45:49 and that husband left her for another person...
45:52 what's the difference?
45:54 I mean... a husband can leave you for another person,
45:58 you're still left...
46:00 and so, that helped me realize
46:02 this was really a non-issue. Yvonne: Hmmm...
46:04 What mattered was the relationship
46:07 that I had with the Lord and so forth
46:10 and that was the stability we needed.
46:13 And it's just knowing that... that God can get you
46:16 through any of these things that come to us in life
46:19 and we don't always get the answers we want...
46:22 in this situation, I had a wonderful answer
46:25 and does it mean that everything has been great for us?
46:29 We've had to face some real challenges,
46:33 not necessarily with each other,
46:35 we're sealed together in that respect,
46:37 our challenges have come from outside
46:40 and especially as he's been in ministry and pastoring
46:44 and so forth, we...
46:45 that's a whole 'nother story and a whole 'nother book...
46:47 Jason: That's what I wanted to ask you about...
46:49 Claudia: That's a whole 'nother book.
46:51 Have you received opposition from the church
46:52 and any Leaders in the church because of your past?
46:56 When I first came and... back to the Lord and...
47:01 and then I entered into ministry,
47:02 there were those who were very skeptical,
47:04 I had an Elder... working with me
47:08 that would come to me repeatedly and say,
47:11 "Pastor Ron, I've never known anyone like you
47:14 that's ever lasted in the church"
47:15 and I finally wrote him a letter in fact he said, "two years... "
47:19 and I wrote him a letter and I said, you know,
47:22 "Dear John," I said, you know...
47:24 "you keep bringing this up
47:27 instead of standing on the sidelines
47:29 waiting for me to fulfill your doleful prediction of failure...
47:33 why didn't you lift me up in prayer?
47:36 You should be praying for me"
47:37 I said, "Besides it's been two years,
47:39 I'm going on three" and well now... it's 25...
47:44 you know... so... and I've had others...
47:48 even pastors... make statements, you know, that...
47:51 warning people to stay away from me because...
47:54 "that kind can never change... "
47:56 which gave me the title of my first book.
47:58 And the title of your first book is?
48:01 "That Kind Can Never Change"
48:02 and he wasn't trying to help me write a book,
48:04 he was denouncing me
48:05 but I have had that opposition
48:09 but, you know, these very same people,
48:12 years later had come to me
48:14 praising the Lord for my testimony
48:15 because even though they were life-long Christians,
48:19 they now saw God in a different light,
48:22 they saw the power of God that they hadn't understood before.
48:24 Yvonne: Hmmm...
48:26 The fact of the matter is most of us Christians...
48:29 don't really believe God can give us victory.
48:34 Yvonne and Jason: Hmmm...
48:36 Unpack that a little bit for us because that's really true.
48:40 Well, we're always making excuses
48:42 for each other and for ourselves,
48:45 "Well, I'm Italian, what do you expect me to do...
48:48 I'm supposed to have a temper... "
48:49 or I'm... I'm... you know...
48:51 sorry Italians... "I'm Irish... I'm red head"
48:55 and "I'm a... " whatever...
48:56 We make all these excuses and that is exactly
48:59 what they are... it's rationalization
49:01 and it's making excuses...
49:03 we're afraid to have victory,
49:05 that's something I've kind of concluded,
49:08 we are really afraid to have full victory in our lives
49:13 you mean, "Be like Christ,
49:17 huh, What does that mean?"
49:20 Somehow we think we're going to have to give
49:23 something up,
49:25 and we are going to have to give something up
49:28 but it's all... bad stuff that we're giving up...
49:31 but we... we... I don't know...
49:34 do we think that we're giving up our freedom?
49:36 But, no, we're not... because we choose
49:40 to be victorious or not,
49:44 God has promised that power to us,
49:47 Jesus died to give us that power and assurance
49:50 and yet we hold back
49:52 and we just hang on to these little things
49:54 saying, "Hmm... but I like doing this" or that...
49:58 it's just because we're afraid to live victoriously.
50:01 Yvonne: I think that's really the point.
50:03 And being comfortable in our sins...
50:05 Claudia: Yeah...
50:06 You don't want to... you don't want to step outside
50:08 that comfort zone, saying, "I've been doing this for years,
50:11 I don't want to give that up. "
50:13 That's right, we or you... and yet, we point the finger
50:15 at everybody else but I think, we're afraid.
50:20 Yvonne: Hmmm...
50:22 I think that... we also... I think we're afraid,
50:25 I think also we don't really accept that God can... can...
50:32 change... really change the heart
50:35 so that the old appetites are gone.
50:38 We tend to have a form of godliness
50:41 denying the power thereof.
50:43 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... hmm... hmmm...
50:44 what about the children, how did the children...
50:49 how did your son deal with Pastor Ron's testimony,
50:53 like... knowing that he had come out of that lifestyle,
50:55 how did the children deal with it?
50:57 My son and Ron had had a very good relationship,
51:02 it was very interesting to watch.
51:04 Of course, he was going through the trauma of losing
51:07 a close, in-home relationship with his own father,
51:10 that was one of the choices I made
51:13 as a mother going through a divorce,
51:15 I determined that I was going to do everything
51:18 I possibly could do to foster a good relationship
51:21 between my son and his father
51:23 and I didn't want that to be part of the trauma
51:30 and yet, he and Ron,
51:33 my son and Ron related very well to each other
51:36 and yes, it was hard, it was a stepfather coming in
51:39 and there were things... we had to move away...
51:41 from where he was growing up and so forth...
51:45 but that could have happened no matter what...
51:48 so, that didn't traumatize my son
51:51 and they still have great respect for each other now,
51:57 as far as that goes, but after a while...
52:00 my son decided to go back and live with his father
52:03 so that he could go to school in the area, in Tennessee
52:06 and so forth, and it's kind of gone from there
52:10 but then we had our own two after a short time.
52:14 Yvonne: How did they deal with knowing about your past?
52:19 We never really talked about it
52:22 until I was asked to write my book
52:25 and then, I wrote the book and then, eventually
52:32 I was on Radio Talk Shows for three years
52:34 and then a very prominent television evangelist came to me
52:41 and wanted to know if I was ready for television,
52:43 well, that startled me because I...
52:46 up to that point I'd been doing my testimony behind a microphone
52:50 on a telephone and I didn't have my face
52:53 identified with the issue
52:56 and the book was written under a pen name.
52:58 but when I realized that I was going to be on television,
53:01 I thought, now is the time to talk to our children,
53:04 I think they're what? Five and six...
53:06 something like that... they were pretty young,
53:09 so, I'm the one that had the difficulty
53:13 you know, talking to the children about it
53:16 and I don't remember Zachary really reacting,
53:19 you know, they knew me as their daddy,
53:21 see the past didn't really matter
53:23 but my daughter... it was so funny...
53:25 she looked at me when I got all through...
53:27 and she just said, "So, Dad... you were married to a man?"
53:31 I said, "Well, kind of... sort of... yes honey"
53:36 "Well, who is he?"
53:37 And I said, "Well, it's no one you'd ever know,
53:40 no one you'd ever meet,
53:41 it's just so long ago in the past"
53:42 she said, "Oh, okay... " and that was it
53:44 because they knew me as their dad
53:47 and they have grown up now hearing me give my testimony
53:51 and this is just their reality, it doesn't seem to bother them,
53:55 I don't think it does, they... we have a great relationship.
53:58 This good relationship and if they had something
54:02 that they doubted along the way about...
54:05 they may have talked to someone else,
54:08 they may have worked it out on their own
54:10 but they have not made an issue of it
54:13 because they see their dad as the man that he is.
54:17 Yes, yes, what would you say to a woman...
54:22 the wife, right now,
54:23 whose husband has just come out to her
54:25 and she... it's a different situation
54:28 from yours but she...
54:31 her husband has just come out
54:33 and she's a Christian and he's a Christian
54:36 and he's struggling with this area,
54:39 what would you say to her, what should she do?
54:41 Pray...
54:47 be as kind and understanding as possible
54:50 and to understand that this is not a rejection of her.
54:55 Yvonne: Hmmm...
54:56 See, I had been rejected
55:01 and another person... female took my place
55:07 but then the issue of someone going into the gay lifestyle,
55:11 they're not rejecting you as a person or even your sex,
55:15 they have problems that are causing them to go
55:19 that other direction,
55:21 I mean, I can compete with another woman,
55:23 I can't compete with another man, or with a man...
55:26 they're not the same issue. Yvonne: Right, right.
55:29 And so that was the main thing...
55:31 to realize this is not necessarily about you,
55:34 you didn't do anything right or wrong necessarily,
55:36 you didn't create this
55:38 because this comes from way back...
55:43 the facts are that many of the people
55:46 in the gay lifestyle have gone there
55:49 because of abuse they've suffered
55:51 early in their childhood,
55:53 things they don't even remember necessarily
55:55 and it doesn't have to be sexual... it can be physical,
55:57 you know, not sexually but physical...
56:01 and... or... emotional... so trauma...
56:05 and I want to say something on behalf of my former husband.
56:09 He has since found out
56:11 that he is severely suffering under PTSD
56:17 Yvonne: Hmmm...
56:18 Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome from being in Vietnam
56:21 and he has just recently discovered this
56:25 and he has been through hours and hours of counseling
56:28 and has been told by those counselors
56:32 that with what he was dealing with in his life,
56:35 there's no way we had a chance
56:36 of being successful as a married couple
56:39 and so he's doing his part now to help others
56:42 that are dealing with the same problem
56:44 and it is a huge problem in our Country,
56:47 now PTSD can be a problem from some event in your childhood
56:53 or any time in your life,
56:54 it doesn't have to be because you went off to war.
56:55 Yvonne: Right, right...
56:57 Okay, and so that affects much of what we do as well.
57:01 Wow! well thank you so much...
57:03 the two of you... have really been a blessing
57:06 and brought some really interesting insights
57:09 into the whole situation,
57:11 we thank you so much and thank you Jay...
57:13 Jason: You're welcome...
57:14 Yvonne: Thank you for being with us
57:16 and thank you for being with us...
57:18 we want you to know that Brother Ron here has books,
57:22 if you go to comingoutministries. org
57:25 or dot com?
57:26 Ron: dot org Yvonne: dot org
57:28 comingoutministries. org
57:29 Thanks for joining us, join us next time
57:32 because it just wouldn't be the same... without you.


Revised 2016-06-16