Urban Report

Witnessing to Other Denominations

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Philip Ammons


Series Code: UBR

Program Code: UBR000213A

00:01 Do you ever wonder how to respond
00:02 when you get into a conversation
00:04 with a Jehovah's Witness
00:05 or a member of the Church of Latter-day Saints.
00:07 Well, stay tuned to meet a man
00:09 who is going to share some tips and strategies
00:11 that can lead them to Christ.
00:13 My name is Yvonne Lewis.
00:14 And I'm Jason Bradley
00:16 and you're watching Urban Report.
00:42 Hello, and welcome to Urban Report,
00:45 I've got Jason with me.
00:46 Hey, Jay. All right, all right.
00:50 And we have a special guest today.
00:53 Our guest today is Philip Ammons.
00:56 For 35 years in 13 states
00:58 across the United States and in Canada,
01:01 he's been an active teacher, preacher,
01:04 evangelist and seminar presenter
01:06 with a focus in Christian apologetics,
01:09 Bible prophecy
01:10 and hermeneutical Biblical interpretation.
01:13 He's preached in churches
01:14 across various denominational fellowships across America.
01:18 Welcome to Urban Report, Brother Phil.
01:21 Thank you, Yvonne.
01:23 Jason, good to see you. It's good to see you.
01:26 Phil, I've known you for a number of years
01:30 and for all the time that I've known you.
01:33 You...
01:35 God has just gifted you across so many lines,
01:39 you are able to present doctrine in a way
01:44 that's so cogent and so
01:49 erudite.
01:51 I shouldn't give you all this,
01:52 because this here is going to blow up.
01:56 But you have and it's such a blessing
01:58 because I've learned so much over the years from you
02:02 and I just want to know how did you get into,
02:05 first of all what is Christian apologetics?
02:07 Because some people, you know, when you say apologetics,
02:10 people think you're apologizing.
02:11 Right. Because those things... that was a mouthful.
02:14 Yeah. Right, right.
02:15 Hermeneutics, apologetics,
02:16 denominations and all the stuff.
02:18 Then there are people who honestly believe that,
02:20 they believe that it has something to do
02:23 with regretting something that you've done.
02:26 But when you start talking about Christian apologetics,
02:29 you're really talking about defending the faith
02:33 and typically here meaning
02:36 something in the historical Christian vacuum.
02:42 We typically dealing with doctrine,
02:44 whether doctrine of creation
02:46 or doctrine of some theoretical
02:51 or theological belief in the scriptures
02:53 so we can really pars down the different defenses
02:58 that God expects for us as Christians
03:02 to be able to assert in the face of people
03:05 who seek to distort or deny that which is biblical truth.
03:11 So, basically
03:14 and I know a lot of our viewers want to know,
03:17 like a lot of times people come to your door
03:19 and they'll say, can you...
03:23 We want to, we want to share something with you.
03:27 We want to tell you something.
03:28 How do you react when people come to your door?
03:31 Well, now there are couple,
03:32 that's an excellent question, Yvonne.
03:35 There are two things here.
03:38 Biblically speaking
03:40 there are those who have beliefs,
03:43 religious beliefs that are so destructive to Christianity
03:49 that we are admonished by John
03:52 in the Book of 1 John,
03:54 2 John 1
03:57 to not even allow certain people into our homes.
04:01 And so we have to be very careful with that.
04:03 I on the other hand
04:05 as a layperson apologist
04:09 love for people to come into my home.
04:12 Whether, whatever their faith may be,
04:14 unless they are of some satanic persuasion,
04:18 other than that they are welcome into my home
04:21 to discuss the scripture so, in answer to your question,
04:25 someone comes and knocks on my door.
04:28 I invite them in
04:30 and there are certain conclusions
04:34 that I automatically have in place
04:36 when this person is at my door.
04:39 Number one, I'm glad that they're there
04:42 because it lets me know that they have a deep value
04:46 for whatever truths that they believe in.
04:49 They are out in the streets and they are working.
04:52 They are seeking to proselytize and share what their faith is,
04:57 so while I may not ultimately agree
04:59 with their theological positions.
05:02 I do give them absolute credit for being out there
05:06 and proselytizing and wanting to share their faith...
05:11 Which I think if I may interject
05:13 which I think that's so important
05:16 because that then starts you
05:19 from a place of mutual respect.
05:20 Yes.
05:22 You respect
05:23 even if you disagree with their position, right?
05:25 You're respecting the fact
05:28 that they've even taken the time
05:30 to come out and to talk to
05:32 because some of our folks aren't doing that.
05:33 That's true. Yeah.
05:35 Right.
05:36 We're not, we're not,
05:37 we're not taking the time to go on
05:39 from door to door sometimes and talk to people.
05:42 Which is sad too because I mean,
05:44 you see some of these dedication,
05:46 people are dedicated out there in suits
05:49 and it's burning hot outside,
05:51 they're out there in suits and passing stuff out
05:53 and talking to people and everything like then,
05:56 we need to see more of that within our own church.
05:59 And what does go up boils down too, Jason,
06:02 is what is our value of what we regard as truth.
06:06 If we have a great value of truths,
06:09 then we will be out there sharing that.
06:12 If we don't have a great value for truths,
06:15 then we don't believe that it's important enough
06:17 to go out and share this with other people.
06:21 That's pretty indicting, you know.
06:23 I mean, really, how important is it to you.
06:26 That's the ultimate question.
06:28 How important is it to you
06:30 that you will take the time yourself
06:33 to share it with someone
06:34 even if he's not going from door to door
06:37 but just sharing it with someone, so...
06:39 Oh, go ahead, Jason.
06:40 And do you recognize the sense of urgency.
06:42 Do you truly believe that we're living in the last days?
06:45 I mean, do you believe that Christ is coming back soon
06:48 because if you do,
06:50 then like you said
06:51 you would be sharing that with people.
06:53 That, Jason, and the fact that every person that we meet
06:57 whether he's on the street, on the job, in the classroom,
07:01 wherever it might be,
07:02 we should look at every individual
07:04 that we meet as a candidate for the kingdom of heaven.
07:08 And if we look at people that way,
07:11 we will then have an urge and a mission from God
07:16 to win this soul over to Christ for eternity.
07:20 So there is an absolute need,
07:22 and one of the things about the valuation
07:26 of what we believe is that
07:29 if, well, there are four things number one,
07:33 the fact that Christ died for truth,
07:35 so we ought to have an elevated value for truth.
07:39 There are millions during the Dark Ages,
07:42 as many as 50 million people
07:45 who lost their lives because of the value of truth.
07:48 They would not sell off truth
07:50 because they valued it too much and they said,
07:53 "We will give our lives before we give up the truth."
07:57 So we are sanctified thirdly by the truth
08:01 we're told by the Apostle Paul.
08:03 So it is truth
08:05 that sanctifies the church and us as individuals.
08:08 So we must and,
08:11 and we must have an elevated
08:16 view of what God has given us in the scriptures
08:20 and nothing less than truth will do.
08:23 You probably know, Yvonne,
08:27 John writes I believe it's in 2 John 2:1,
08:31 that no lie is of the truth and, you know, myself
08:36 and Florentine Cyle, my fiance,
08:40 we do our missionary work together.
08:42 We go to different churches together,
08:45 and we fish for souls together.
08:47 We sit down and we give our Bible studies together.
08:50 And so there's this one young man
08:52 that we're giving Bible studies to currently,
08:55 and he was pretty much in the Mormon Church.
08:59 He had one foot in there and then we ran across
09:03 and he began to take Bible studies
09:05 we've now been studying with him for three months.
09:08 And so now he has completely disavowed any concept
09:12 because we've gone through the doctrines
09:14 and teachings of much of the LDS,
09:18 and so he has now disavowed that.
09:20 And now he's looking in another direction
09:22 in terms of biblical truth.
09:24 What was he before he met you?
09:27 Before he met them,
09:28 before he started studying with them?
09:29 Catholic. Okay.
09:31 He was Catholic. Okay.
09:32 And then he got, began to study with Mormons
09:36 and he was just about there, he was going consistently,
09:39 they were like a family to him and so,
09:42 we had our work cut out for us,
09:44 because oftentimes people who are in churches
09:47 who consider their fellow church members
09:50 more of a family is very difficult for them
09:53 to objectively look at truth for what it is,
09:56 then make a decision on truth,
09:58 so we knew that we had our work cut out for us.
10:00 But the Holy Spirit and the Word of God
10:04 really has convicted this man.
10:06 He has accepted many of the Bible doctrines
10:09 that we've presented to him.
10:11 He has, he's on board.
10:13 He's been attending church with us.
10:16 And so his value of truth has changed from a feeling
10:22 about what you believe
10:24 to actually what does the Bible say
10:27 about what truth is and so...
10:29 That's such a good point,
10:30 you know because in this day and time,
10:33 so many people feel as though truth is relative
10:36 like what is your truth?
10:38 Yes.
10:39 Haven't you heard that? Yeah, that's pretty scary.
10:40 I know, what is your truth? What is your truth?
10:43 My truth is well, wait a minute now.
10:46 What is the objective source
10:48 upon which we base this idea of truth?
10:52 It certainly can't come from inside of us.
10:54 It has to come from some objective source
10:57 which for us is the Bible.
10:59 Absolutely and this young man
11:01 and I can just say his name is Jose.
11:03 His name is Jose.
11:05 In our study maybe about a month or so ago,
11:08 we were studying a particular topic
11:10 and he made the following statement
11:12 and he didn't mean any harm in this.
11:15 It was just a statement in the course of our study
11:17 and he says to us, Flo and myself, he says,
11:21 "Well, you know, no church has all of the truth."
11:25 And I said, "Well, Jose, wait a minute.
11:27 You know, think about what you just said,
11:30 God has given us all of the truth."
11:33 And in John 16:13,
11:37 the Bible promises
11:39 that the Holy Spirit would lead us
11:41 not into some of the truth or most of the truth,
11:44 but would lead us into all of the truth,
11:47 so all of the truths we have in the scriptures,
11:51 the Holy Spirit can open up to our understanding,
11:53 and there are people and there are churches
11:58 who do have all of the truth.
12:01 There, you know, I'm thinking
12:02 one particular church has all of the truth.
12:05 We ought to stop being ashamed to say it.
12:08 We ought to stop being ashamed to admit it that,
12:12 you know, and whatever church our listeners belong to.
12:16 If you're not convinced
12:18 that your church has all of the truths,
12:21 then you really need to begin to reassess
12:23 and reexamine and recalibrate
12:26 where your devotions and,
12:28 and where your affections lie theologically.
12:32 It's interesting too
12:33 because when you look at how Satan did things,
12:35 like he would give you some truth,
12:37 he would give you that 95 to 99%
12:42 but that one percent of lie made the whole thing a lie.
12:48 Excellent point, Jason.
12:50 Because every error is corrosive to the truth.
12:55 Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life."
12:58 So every error, every misstatement of truth,
13:01 every misleading concept of what we have in the Bible
13:05 serves to separate us and segregate us
13:09 further and further away
13:11 from him who has declared he is the truth.
13:15 So what are some of the tenets
13:19 of the Church of Latter-day Saints and how do they,
13:23 how is it different from what the Bible teaches.
13:28 Let me first say
13:29 that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
13:32 are some of the best people
13:34 that you will run into
13:36 in terms of their sociality, their family,
13:40 their emphasis and value of family,
13:44 their dietary habits,
13:48 their reverence towards God,
13:50 when they go into their churches
13:52 and you see the children and the parents,
13:54 they are dressed
13:56 as if they are meeting to serve God
13:58 and you can't say that about every church so,
14:01 there's some wonderful things
14:02 about all of these churches out here that we have had,
14:05 particularly Flo and I have had a chance to visit.
14:08 The problem comes when we place the teachings
14:13 under the scrutiny of the Holy Scriptures.
14:17 Then there are many problems.
14:20 We do not believe that God was a man at one time
14:24 and then worked his way up into his position of God,
14:27 we do not believe that.
14:28 We do not believe that Jesus
14:31 married Mary and had children.
14:35 We do not believe that.
14:37 We do not believe in priesthood
14:40 outside of Levitical Priesthood.
14:42 We don't believe that.
14:44 We don't believe that
14:45 we can be baptized for people who have died.
14:48 We simply don't believe that.
14:49 We don't believe that the Sabbath day
14:53 which I want to commend many Mormons
14:57 for how they keep their day of worship.
15:00 Unfortunately, the Bible gives us
15:03 a different day of worship
15:05 in which to God declares is holy.
15:08 And we should say, they keep Sunday
15:11 and the Bible teaches the seventh day...
15:12 And the Bible teaches the seventh day of the week
15:14 which is the Sabbath.
15:15 We do not believe that our communion services
15:18 which they have every week
15:19 that water is the substitute for grape juice
15:24 that the New Testament indicates
15:27 as a figurative symbolism
15:31 of the blood of Jesus.
15:33 So we do not believe that.
15:35 And, you know, I can go on and on and on.
15:39 There are some varied,
15:41 not only basic theological tenets
15:44 that are out of keeping with the scripture
15:47 but there are some damnable teachings,
15:52 the blood atonement.
15:54 We do not believe as Christians
15:56 that there are some sins
15:58 that the blood of Jesus cannot atone for.
16:01 Such as in their denomination, what is,
16:04 like what are some of the things?
16:05 One of the examples is murder.
16:08 Another example is...
16:12 You know it used to be interracial marriage
16:16 where this was came under the blood atonement
16:20 where you could not atone for that sin that, that...
16:24 I'm sorry that Jesus could not atone for that sin.
16:27 You have to atone with your own life
16:30 for the sin of murder
16:32 or for the sin of interracial marriage.
16:34 They put interracial marriage on the level of murder.
16:37 Not only that but the teaching
16:39 was that it was from Brigham Young actually,
16:42 who has a spouse
16:45 some of the most hateful rhetoric
16:47 when it comes to race relations anywhere in any denomination.
16:52 There's a school named after him of course,
16:54 if you heard Brigham Young University
16:58 and the church and I can say this, the church,
17:01 many of the church members are not very proud
17:03 of Brigham Young and some of the things
17:05 he had to say with regard to race.
17:07 But one of the things that he said
17:08 is the only way to atone for a black person
17:13 or an African marrying a white person
17:16 is that the mother of the children be killed
17:21 as well as the children themselves.
17:23 So this comes under the blood atonement
17:25 you can't just ask Jesus to forgive you of this sin,
17:29 but you must go through this blood atonement
17:32 where you yourself must be sacrificed.
17:35 You know the issue of polygamy.
17:38 The issue of the authority of inspiration,
17:42 whereas today you and I, we look at the Bible,
17:44 the scriptures as final authority
17:46 for inspired doctrine in truth and theology.
17:51 But in the LDS Church, any apostle, living apostle
17:56 or prophet has equal authority
18:00 as the Apostle Paul
18:02 or Moses or Isaiah
18:05 or John or Luke
18:07 or any of the other apostles to change and to disfigure
18:12 what we have in the Holy Scriptures.
18:14 We do not believe that, we absolutely reject that.
18:17 We know that the scriptures as given in the Word of God
18:20 the 66 books,
18:22 39 in the Old Testament, 27 in the New,
18:25 these are our sacred,
18:27 holy guide that leads us to the pathway of heaven.
18:31 Yeah.
18:32 Now, he is preaching, doesn't he?
18:34 I know it, I'm loving it, I'm loving it.
18:36 So, you know when, when,
18:39 when Mormons or LDS people come to your home.
18:44 They...
18:45 I'm sure when they come to your home,
18:47 they're not telling you
18:48 about that whole picture of like interracial relations
18:53 for you know for a long time blacks couldn't even be,
18:58 they couldn't even come into the temple
18:59 from what I understand.
19:00 Or hold higher offices...
19:02 Yeah. Until 1983.
19:04 Yeah, it was
19:08 an interesting journey but,
19:10 and this is not in any way to put down their denomination
19:14 but it's just a kind of open up
19:17 what, what they have espoused
19:21 and, and the journey that they have,
19:23 and how it compares with the word.
19:26 So when they come to your home
19:28 and especially yours as an African-American,
19:30 they're not going to be talking about that part
19:32 and I don't think they even,
19:34 some of them might not even know about that.
19:37 Correct, Yvonne.
19:38 Right? You're absolutely right.
19:41 There are many Mormons that we've talked about.
19:43 A lot of the doctrines and theories and theologies
19:47 that the members have no idea.
19:50 I can tell you of all of the missionaries
19:52 had come to my house,
19:53 they run into problems answering questions
19:56 so they would get a higher up to come,
19:58 he can't answer so they get to next higher.
20:00 And they would go four, five, six deep
20:03 and in front of us,
20:05 in front of Flo and myself
20:07 these missionaries are confronted with doctrines
20:09 and theories that they never knew,
20:11 no one ever told them these things,
20:14 but one of the first things that I look at
20:18 when an LDS will come to my door.
20:20 The first thing
20:21 I need to establish is authority,
20:23 and I would say this about any group or person
20:27 that you're dealing with that will come to you
20:29 and I say this to all of our viewers,
20:31 the first thing you want to establish
20:33 is what is authority.
20:34 If I have certain set of beliefs
20:36 and you have certain set of beliefs,
20:38 what settles the argument?
20:41 Now, what settles it?
20:42 If you don't get that right in the beginning,
20:45 you will be going from now until,
20:49 you know, to doomsday
20:51 trying to argue as what's right or what's wrong.
20:54 Now, in the Book of 2 Nephi,
20:56 this is in the Book of Mormon
20:58 and there are three books that they equate
21:02 with equal authority to the Bible.
21:04 You have the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price,
21:06 Doctrines and Covenants, and these books constitute,
21:12 they're inspired writings from Joseph Smith.
21:15 So one of the first things you have to do
21:18 is settle on
21:19 what is it that are we going to accept as authority
21:22 to determine all of the whatever disputes we may have,
21:27 what's going to determine
21:29 the true answer to this in the dispute.
21:32 So in 2 Nephi, I believe it's 29:6.
21:38 It says that there are people
21:42 who believe in the Bible only are fools.
21:47 So Joseph Smith believes
21:50 and in the Book of 2 Nephi
21:52 and there are some other books within the Book of Mormon,
21:54 that if all you believe in is the Holy Scriptures,
21:58 then you are a fool, that you are misguided.
22:02 Now they won't tell you this
22:03 when they come through the door,
22:05 but you go through, you know,
22:07 you do your research and you kind of know
22:08 where things are and,
22:11 but what you have to get them to do,
22:13 and sometimes they will be willing to do this
22:15 and sometimes they won't.
22:17 Particularly missionaries or typically younger
22:20 and you say to them,
22:22 well, you might believe in the Book of Mormon
22:24 the Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price,
22:28 but I only believe in the Holy Scriptures.
22:30 And I think that if we're going to get anywhere down the line,
22:34 we need to accept the Bible,
22:35 we need to get truth from the Bible,
22:37 and then if you can convince me on down the line
22:40 that Joseph Smith was a true prophet
22:43 or whatever, then we can deal with that at that point,
22:45 but for now let's just stick with the Bible.
22:48 If you can do that, Jason,
22:50 if you can localize
22:52 what is a source of proof and stick to that,
22:58 then you will be a long way
23:00 in trying to lead the discussion
23:05 in a profitable way
23:06 that of course leads us back to what God has said.
23:10 Otherwise it's just being on in circles.
23:11 In circles, you do that for years.
23:14 So the first thing that you need to do
23:16 when they come,
23:18 when once the discussion has begun
23:20 is to establish that the Bible is going to be the basis,
23:25 the foundation for your conversation.
23:28 Let them know that you're willing to discuss.
23:31 And again, I want to let our viewers know.
23:35 I do not recommend that you do
23:38 what I do or what Flo and I will do.
23:43 Most of us are not prepared to go into other churches
23:48 or deal with people of great theological background
23:52 with lots of letters,
23:55 what that will result in
23:57 is you yourself might get to a set up,
24:00 so we don't recommend that.
24:03 I do that simply because of the background
24:06 that the Holy Spirit has given to me
24:08 in terms of Christian apologetics.
24:10 And there are a lot of our viewers
24:11 who perhaps have gone to theological school
24:14 and so you have a basis,
24:17 maybe you've done research and papers
24:19 and maybe books or periodicals,
24:22 and so, yes, you're prepared to do that.
24:24 I simply would not advise
24:28 that everyone go into the lions' den
24:31 so to speak and do what we do.
24:33 What I would recommend
24:36 is that we are prepared enough
24:38 with our knowledge in the Scriptures.
24:40 So that like Paul says,
24:42 "We can earnestly contend for the faith."
24:46 And this is what the Bible says in Jude 3,
24:49 that we earnestly contend for the faith.
24:51 Paul says, "I am set for the defense of the gospel."
24:54 So we need to defend, we need to earnestly contain.
24:58 We need to be prepared to enter into these discussions
25:00 with people of various faiths
25:03 to defend the truthfulness of this book
25:07 that we call the Bible.
25:08 Now, somebody might say
25:10 in kind of a bumper sticker fashion that well,
25:13 the Bible doesn't need defending.
25:15 I disagree with you.
25:17 If for no other reason Paul says that it does.
25:21 That we must earnestly contend,
25:23 that we must stand in defense of the Bible so when I'm...
25:26 when you're dealing
25:27 with someone of a different faith,
25:30 you first...
25:31 The first rule is to decide what is authority?
25:36 And once you decide what is authority,
25:39 then everyone is locked into an agreement
25:42 that you can't go outside of this,
25:44 that we agree that this is what
25:46 is going to decide these issues.
25:47 Right, right okay,
25:48 so that's the first step
25:50 determining that the Bible is the foundation.
25:53 What do you do next?
25:54 The second thing that you do is to try as far as possible
25:59 to deal with things which are in mutual agreement.
26:04 Things that you, that both of you can agree on,
26:07 the things that you may have in common,
26:10 whether it's Jehovah's Witnesses.
26:11 There are some things that all of us
26:13 have in common with Jehovah's Witnesses.
26:15 There's a lot we don't,
26:16 but there are some things that we do.
26:18 With LDS there are some things that we hold in common.
26:20 I mentioned some of them earlier
26:22 or whether a Lutheran or Baptist.
26:25 You'd be surprised the people that Flo
26:28 and I have talked to, the churches
26:30 that we've been to fishing
26:32 for souls in the conversations that we've had,
26:34 how for years we've had denominations,
26:37 people of various denominations
26:40 coming into our home
26:41 or, you know, into my home and they come over once a week
26:45 and then we're all there for months and months
26:47 and months, months and months.
26:49 So once we establish what is, what is authority?
26:52 The next thing we do is try to see
26:55 what are the points of agreement?
26:57 What is that we can agree on, that we can,
27:00 you know, not battle about.
27:02 You don't want to start out,
27:04 whether it shows what is the LDS,
27:06 you don't want to start out
27:07 with World War II in your studies.
27:09 Right.
27:10 Let's talk about
27:11 what the scripture says in the Bible.
27:14 What the blood of Jesus has meant to you and me,
27:17 and how it is a life transformative
27:20 experience for us
27:22 to know Jesus as personal savior.
27:24 See, we can talk about those things
27:25 and we can go to scriptures,
27:27 you know, and deal with these things.
27:29 So the second thing and answer to your question,
27:32 a long answer to a short question
27:34 is talk about things that you have agreement on.
27:37 Yes, see that's really good
27:38 because what you're doing
27:39 is you are not starting from an adversarial place,
27:45 but you're starting from a place of commonality
27:47 so that, you can again establish,
27:51 okay, this is what we both believe.
27:53 We believe this because this is scriptural,
27:57 so you're actually reinforcing
27:59 what the scripture says
28:00 before you go into what's the difference.
28:03 Like a theological icebreaker.
28:05 Yeah, exactly, exactly. Exactly, Jason.
28:08 When we look at the life of Jesus in his ministry,
28:13 how many fights did he start?
28:15 He didn't start very many.
28:17 What he looked for was needs in the other person,
28:22 and so what I look for when someone comes to my door,
28:26 they have a need.
28:28 We know that the ultimate need is they want to drag me down
28:31 to their house of worship and baptize me,
28:33 we understand that,
28:35 I know that's their bid, all the need is,
28:37 but in our conversations there are needs
28:40 that you can cue in on,
28:42 that's what they would like to hear.
28:44 And in many cases I give them what they want to hear
28:47 so long as it's consistent with my beliefs.
28:50 So if it's a Mormon, if it's a Jehovah's Witness
28:52 or Baptist or Lutheran or Catholic, whatever it is,
28:57 there are things and this goes to the my second point of
29:00 certainly you want to talk about things you can agree on.
29:05 But you also want to look for openings
29:07 in terms of what people believe.
29:09 Keep in mind that there is reason
29:11 why they are at your door.
29:12 And they want to continue to come
29:16 because they will then be able go back to their churches
29:19 and report that they met Philip Ammons
29:22 and this guy seems interested in what they are believing.
29:26 So we want to keep going back to his house
29:28 because he's opened his door to us
29:30 and we can have these discussions,
29:32 so by all means I want to play into that,
29:35 and there are times where I play pretty dumb.
29:39 Now, some of my friends might say
29:40 there's not a whole lot of play work with that,
29:43 but the fact is
29:45 that in some of my initial meetings with people,
29:50 I will, I will play is as almost as dumb
29:53 as they want in terms of, in terms of
29:58 leading them to believe
30:01 that I am open to what they have to offer.
30:05 I know that they will then keep coming back
30:08 and, and that's what I want for them to keep coming back.
30:12 And as they keep coming back,
30:13 I begin to present things to them
30:16 that either they did not know
30:19 or they have a very difficult time with.
30:21 I was...
30:22 Flo and I were sitting with Jehovah's Witnesses
30:25 not very long ago in my living room
30:28 and we were going over John 1,
30:32 "In the beginning was the Word, in the Word was with God,
30:33 and the Word was God."
30:35 And of course they have a problem with that
30:36 and they translate the word was God,
30:39 they translate that as a God.
30:42 I won't go into all of the Greek structures to why,
30:44 but that's the ultimate translation.
30:47 So my question to them then,
30:49 I said, well, now wait a minute,
30:51 if Jesus is merely a God,
30:54 then we go to John 17
30:56 and Jesus says of God the Father
30:59 that he is the only God
31:01 and outside of him there is no God,
31:04 then how could Jesus be a God,
31:07 because if God is the only God and that makes.
31:10 I'm sorry, in John 17, Jesus says of God,
31:13 "You are the only true God."
31:16 So then if Jesus is a God
31:19 and God the Father is the only true God,
31:22 then that makes Jesus a false God.
31:24 So how do you explain that to me I ask,
31:27 and there was no explanation coming
31:29 other than we'll find the answer to you...
31:32 for you.
31:34 Joseph Smith in 1821
31:38 or thereabout depending on
31:39 what you read from 1821, 1823
31:43 has this experience
31:47 where God the Father
31:49 and the Son appears to him in his bedroom.
31:53 Now again, depending on which Mormon story you read,
31:57 some stories will say this happened out in the wilderness,
32:00 others say that no, it happened in his bedroom
32:03 but whichever the fact is that he says,
32:07 he saw God the Father and God the Son.
32:09 So then I ask the missionaries
32:14 I said, now wait a minute,
32:16 in at least three different passages of the Bible,
32:21 the Bible says,
32:22 "No man have seen God at any time."
32:25 So how do you explain this?
32:27 And then I think the initial offering
32:30 which is very weak was, well,
32:34 you know maybe no Godhead...
32:35 No one had seen God at any time at that point
32:38 and I said, "Well, that's not true,"
32:40 because you go back to Exodus 33:20
32:43 and God says, that no man can,
32:46 in other words there is not the,
32:48 the ability for man to see God the Father at any time.
32:52 So people then
32:55 and I will briefly just say to you
32:58 how these things play out for me and for Flo.
33:03 They come over to the house,
33:06 we have a very nice one or two or three sessions.
33:10 Then we begin to raise very difficult questions,
33:14 then they take notes and say that they will get back to us,
33:18 then these questions begin to amass
33:23 until it gets to the point
33:25 where they are unmanageable to where,
33:27 you know, we're now 20, 23 questions in
33:29 and you've got,
33:30 now I got back to us about question number one.
33:33 Then they will go and get someone
33:35 from the Kingdom Hall
33:37 or someone from the church
33:38 who is supposed to know much better and they will come.
33:42 Then that person gets stuck in the mud.
33:44 Then there's a second person that comes
33:46 who's supposed to be higher than him
33:48 and we've gone all the way up the chain
33:51 in terms of in many cases with Jehovah's Witnesses
33:54 and with Mormons,
33:57 we've had state leaders sitting in my living room,
34:00 they're trying to explain things
34:03 in front of the missionaries and the Mormons,
34:06 in front of the missionaries
34:08 things had completely fall apart
34:10 and then we resort to e-mails,
34:12 long e-mails going back and forth.
34:14 So what I'm trying to say in a nutshell
34:17 is for our viewers don't get frustrated
34:21 with this, with the process,
34:22 you gonna have to go through give and take,
34:24 there's going to be some very long laborious e-mails
34:30 and discussions going on,
34:32 but hang in there with it
34:34 because the Lord may not bring these people in right away,
34:38 but at some point
34:40 they will be brought to a point of decision
34:44 and the Holy Spirit will bring back to their memory
34:46 many things that you have implanted within them,
34:49 so patience is a key.
34:50 Right, I think what you're doing is you are...
34:54 you and Flo are planting the seeds.
34:57 Even if they don't make the decision right then,
35:01 that those questions
35:03 are going to be in their heads...
35:04 Right. Well, what about this.
35:05 Well, the Book of Mormon teaches that
35:08 or the Jehovah's Witnesses have their own Bible
35:11 I think because, because basically
35:13 what you're saying
35:15 is these things are transferable
35:16 from denomination to denomination...
35:18 It is.
35:19 Because these points of finding
35:23 first of all not being confrontational
35:25 when you first start,
35:26 then finding areas of commonality
35:29 and then opening up,
35:32 planting the seeds,
35:34 all of that transfers
35:35 across the denomination lines, correct.
35:38 So if you do that,
35:41 as you do that first of all the Holy Spirit
35:44 if you have prayed
35:45 the Holy Spirit
35:46 is going to guide that conversation...
35:48 Absolutely.
35:49 So that you're not just out there by yourself.
35:52 Absolutely.
35:53 So that's one thing, and then, secondly,
35:55 you have to equip yourself,
35:58 you can't just go in there and as you were saying,
36:01 you know, you can't just go in there
36:03 and, and try to have this conversation
36:05 without having studied, you need to study.
36:08 And I think this is an important thing.
36:10 The Bible of course says
36:11 that we were to study to show ourselves approved unto God.
36:14 Workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
36:15 rightly dividing the word of truth.
36:17 So if we study for ourselves
36:21 then we can,
36:22 the Holy Spirit's job
36:24 is to bring back to our remembrance
36:25 that which we study.
36:26 Absolutely.
36:28 And it can bring back to your remembrance
36:29 that which you didn't study...
36:30 That which you didn't study... That which you didn't study.
36:32 Exactly.
36:33 Oh...
36:35 How do you go about talking to someone
36:36 who doesn't believe in God at all
36:38 or who doesn't believe in the God
36:41 that we believe in,
36:43 they might believe in Allah or one of these other ones.
36:46 Excellent question, Jason,
36:48 and this is as well a part of apologetics.
36:51 The existence of God and you talk to people,
36:56 and oftentimes when I talk to people
36:58 who don't believe in any God.
37:00 It really is a step by step process.
37:05 What I tend to do
37:06 is I try to appeal on the basis of logic
37:09 that, you know, where did the world come from?
37:13 Where did the universe come from?
37:15 How do we get where we are.
37:16 How is it that we have
37:18 such complexity 600 muscles in the human eye?
37:21 Are you really saying that, that's by accident?
37:24 What about first cause, where everything come from?
37:27 The first law of thermodynamics tells us,
37:31 that nothing is created or disappears
37:36 but energy merely changes form.
37:39 Well, if that's the case
37:41 then at what point do we have the first elements of matter.
37:46 You say, well there was an explosion
37:49 and then and then that's how we got the earth, okay.
37:52 Well, then where did the matter come from for the explosion,
37:56 and then the science,
37:57 the school of evolutionary science
38:00 used to say,
38:01 well, it was a bunch of gases
38:03 that created the solid matter
38:05 which then led to the explosions.
38:08 Well, then now the question is where did the gas come from?
38:10 Yeah.
38:12 And so, and so now you will find
38:14 that in the most critical areas of science
38:20 that many scientists,
38:22 evolutionists now are saying
38:25 that we have to concede that at some point
38:28 there was some creation of something.
38:30 In fact, they will use the term creation
38:33 but not in the same sense
38:34 as the Christian uses the term creation.
38:37 But they will concede that at some point
38:40 there was nothing and then there was something,
38:42 so this is a,
38:43 this is a huge departure scientifically
38:47 from what we were looking at for many, many centuries
38:49 before all the way up to 1970s.
38:52 And so you have to start in dealing with someone like that.
38:55 You know and then if you're dealing with a person,
38:57 just common person in the street,
38:59 there are things you can use that just make logical sense.
39:02 For instance and I make this quick,
39:04 I know we're running out of time that, you know,
39:06 to assume that we have this big explosion,
39:09 and as a result of that
39:11 we have all of this complexity is like
39:13 saying that you take a bomb,
39:15 an atom bomb and you detonate a house
39:19 and the house goes into a million pieces
39:21 and then all of a million pieces come back
39:24 perfectly in the form of a house.
39:26 You know, what's the likelihood of that...
39:28 Right.
39:29 And of course, we know that these kinds of things
39:32 certainly are not likely.
39:33 And so when you look at the universe,
39:35 when you look at nature,
39:36 when you look at all of the things
39:38 that God has provided for us as proof
39:39 that there is a higher intelligence
39:42 then one really has to fight against the natural inclination
39:48 that there is an intelligent design to the universe.
39:50 Absolutely.
39:51 And one thing that really gets under my skin is
39:54 when people worship the created as opposed to the creator.
39:56 Yes.
39:57 You know people say, "Oh, put it into the universe."
39:59 Who do you think created the universe?
40:01 Absolutely.
40:02 Why would you go to the created and not the creator.
40:06 Jason, you're preaching the gospel,
40:09 I was with a young lady we had just come out of,
40:13 we were on a break, we were in trial.
40:16 That's what I do, you know, most in my paid life.
40:19 You know I mean the legal profession.
40:21 And so we were at lunch with our client and she...
40:25 We cross the street at this high rise
40:27 and she got up some...
40:30 I forget the meal that she got.
40:33 It was a meat,
40:36 it was not a vegetarian meal
40:37 and so she bowed her head and prayed
40:39 and then when she was done
40:41 she was oh, she says, "I was just praying
40:44 to the cow that provided the meat
40:47 thanking them for my meal."
40:49 What? Wow.
40:51 And when you're in a place like Seattle now,
40:53 we're here in the Northwest
40:55 where that may be kind of odd in many parts,
40:58 but when you're in places like the Northwest,
41:00 like Seattle, this is very, very normal.
41:02 Really?
41:04 Praying to the cow so the dead cow
41:07 that she's getting ready to eat,
41:09 she's praying to the cow.
41:11 For providing the meal.
41:12 For providing the...
41:14 Okay, yeah,
41:16 that's a different way of looking at things.
41:18 Well, you know for me, you know, it was, you know,
41:22 it was very challenging to, you know,
41:23 keep a straight face.
41:25 Yeah.
41:26 But there are people that have all kinds of beliefs and,
41:30 you know, we have to grant hit that
41:33 what they believe they sincerely believe,
41:36 and then what Jesus did,
41:38 he lead them from the known to the unknown,
41:41 and so what you and I have to do
41:43 when we're running across people of whatever
41:46 beliefs tribe is we have to lead them from the known
41:49 and we have to lead them step by step to the known.
41:52 And that's a...
41:55 Wait from the known to the...
41:56 from the unknown to the known
41:58 or from the known to the unknown?
42:00 We lead them from the known to the unknown.
42:01 For instance when Jesus told parables about the farmers
42:06 and about the seed that was known to the people.
42:09 They knew how the farmer would spread seeds,
42:13 but with that known he led them to the unknown.
42:16 That's what I liked about Christ too,
42:18 is like when he preached,
42:19 he found something that people could relate...
42:21 Yes.
42:22 He could draw lessons from what they already know
42:25 and teach them what the message
42:28 he wanted to convey.
42:29 Can I tell you a very quickly, Jason, on that point.
42:33 This is few years ago,
42:35 but we went to a house and we knocked on the door
42:39 and we could hear the television blaring,
42:42 it was Saturday afternoon,
42:44 big college football game and finally,
42:48 you know, and they knew we were at the door.
42:50 They just didn't want to answer.
42:51 But finally the man comes to the door.
42:53 You know, what do you want.
42:55 And we knew that they were watching the football game
42:59 and the man said to us,
43:01 "Look, you guys got to have to hurry
43:02 because this big game fourth quarter."
43:05 And what we said was,
43:08 "Sir, do you realize that we are in the fourth quarter
43:13 of the history of the world
43:15 and you and I need to have our attention focused
43:19 on eternal life like we've never had before."
43:22 Do you know that this gentleman
43:24 who I was able to deal with the known
43:26 to the unknown said, "Come in, come in."
43:31 He said, you know
43:32 that we don't watch the last few minutes
43:33 but I want to hear what you have to say
43:35 and through that we started a series of Bible studies.
43:37 We had colporteurs go to the house.
43:39 So you have to in just about every case
43:43 looking at the ministry of Jesus
43:45 start with what is known
43:47 to the person that you're dealing with,
43:49 and then lead them to the unknown.
43:51 I love that, that's, that's great
43:53 because that you're starting at a place of mutuality,
43:58 something they can relate to
43:59 and then you take them to the next step.
44:01 But you have to build from one place to the next,
44:04 you can't take them all the way here
44:07 without starting at point A.
44:09 So again if a Jehovah's Witness comes to your door,
44:15 and I know one of their beliefs
44:17 that they don't believe in the Trinity.
44:18 Correct.
44:20 And so, what do you...
44:23 what do you say to them
44:26 because they have their own Bible.
44:27 Yeah.
44:29 And I guess the Mormons do too,
44:30 they have the Book of Mormon and all that, so...
44:32 Right.
44:33 What do you say to a Jehovah's Witness
44:36 that is saying to you that Jesus wasn't divine
44:41 that there was no Trinity, that kind of thing?
44:43 Right.
44:45 There are so many different ways to approach this.
44:51 If you don't mind,
44:52 I'll just borrow from my most recent experience.
44:54 Please, please, that's great.
44:56 Where, you know,
44:57 they're coming to the house every week.
44:58 So this is all, this always becomes
45:02 a cornerstone issue with Jehovah's Witnesses.
45:05 It is the deity or the divinity of Christ
45:08 where they feel that Christ was created.
45:10 Now, one has to be careful in that,
45:16 there are some of us
45:18 who are able to go into the Greek
45:21 to an extent the Hebrew, the biblical languages,
45:24 the history of biblical manuscripts, autographs,
45:27 and so we're able to talk at a certain level
45:32 that hopefully they will understand
45:35 and will see the handwriting on the wall.
45:37 Not everyone can do it.
45:38 Not all of your viewers going to be able to do that.
45:40 But you know with the,
45:41 with the Hebrew Greek key study Bible
45:43 and stuff like that.
45:45 If you dig...
45:46 Yeah, if you dig...
45:47 You can, you can, you know, use some of that.
45:49 Yeah, you can use some of that.
45:51 You know but Greek is tough stuff.
45:52 Oh, yeah.
45:54 I have to take a lot of quarters of Greek
45:55 when I was a little kid. I never did Greek.
45:57 Thank God for like the...
45:58 Thank God for the Bibles that have like the Greek word
46:01 and then the English and stuff like that
46:03 because there is no way.
46:05 Absolutely. But go ahead.
46:06 But so here's your ways to approach that.
46:09 There are so many powerful proofs in the scripture
46:14 that support the divinity of Jesus.
46:17 We start with, you know, John 1:1 through...
46:21 "In the beginning was word, the word was with God,
46:23 and the word was God."
46:24 The word was God.
46:27 John 5:17,
46:29 where Jesus talks about the fact
46:31 that I am my father,
46:33 I work and my Father work,
46:35 and this is a form of the Greek there is a form of equality
46:41 that he puts himself on equality with the Father.
46:44 It's called a coordinating conjunction in the Greek
46:48 which means that my Father works
46:49 and I who is equal to my Father work as well.
46:53 And this is why in the very next verse,
46:54 in verse 18 the Jews pick up stones to stone him
46:58 because he was making himself equal to God.
47:01 John 8:58
47:04 before Abraham was I am.
47:07 This is the same structure that's in Exodus 3:14,
47:12 where he tells Moses, tell them,
47:14 "I am sent thee, I am that I am."
47:17 So he puts himself on equality with God.
47:21 In the Book of Genesis, Genesis 1 talks about,
47:25 "In the beginning God created heaven and the earth."
47:27 Well, the word God there is the word Elohim,
47:30 which is the plural majesties.
47:31 L is singular Hebrew for God,
47:34 but Elohim which appears over 2,600 times
47:37 in the Hebrew Old Testament is for plural majesties well,
47:41 who could beat the plural majesties.
47:44 Well, in Chapter 1:26, he says,
47:47 "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."
47:51 And so we know that Jesus is the one
47:53 who created all things
47:55 and we know this from John 1
47:56 and other passages in the New Testament
47:58 that he's a creator.
47:59 So Jesus was there.
48:01 We know that from Genesis 1:2 that the Holy Spirit was there,
48:05 that the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
48:07 So these plural majesties
48:09 as we see in Elohim in the Old Testament
48:12 is none other than Jesus Christ
48:15 the Holy Spirit, God the Father,
48:16 and we see the unity throughout scripture
48:19 of all three of these,
48:22 and again the amount of scripture
48:24 is just overwhelming.
48:26 And you know when Jehovah's Witness come to my house,
48:29 I mean there's no reason why after, you know,
48:31 three or four months they gave up,
48:32 don't come and said,
48:34 "We're not coming back."
48:35 But the thing is that what you look for
48:38 when you study with people like Jehovah's Witness,
48:42 LDS or Lutheran or Baptist
48:45 or whatever the case may be.
48:46 Here's what you look for
48:48 because not everyone is going to just
48:50 follow you to the baptismal pool right away.
48:53 Now we've got some people,
48:55 Flo and I that we have made friends
48:56 with at these different churches.
48:58 We're relying on those friendships
49:00 to ultimately yield fruit for the Lord
49:03 in terms of baptism.
49:04 But what you look for is where
49:06 people come to a point in your discussion
49:09 that they have no answers.
49:11 They have no answers to what you're saying.
49:16 You know where Jesus
49:21 or the prophecy the Old or New Testament are making statements
49:24 that absolutely contradicts what their beliefs are,
49:28 and I feel bad for people sitting in front of me
49:31 who believe in their pastors,
49:34 they believe in their churches,
49:35 they believe in their Sunday school teachers,
49:37 and they are now confronted
49:38 with irreconcilable contradictions
49:42 between what they've been taught
49:43 and what the Bible says.
49:44 And my heart goes out to them
49:46 because I imagine how I would feel, you see.
49:49 And so, but you present them with it,
49:51 so the thing that you look for is
49:53 where they have no answers,
49:54 where they're constantly telling you, well, you know,
49:57 we were going to have to go back and study,
49:59 deal with our pastor whatever
50:01 and come back and bring answers to you.
50:03 And then they never come back they,
50:04 they always want to change the subject
50:06 to something else
50:08 and so and then the other, I'll make this quick.
50:11 And the other thing that you look for is
50:14 for a weakening in their position
50:17 to where do I have time for a quick story?
50:22 I was going to ask you to give us the example
50:24 of what you're t telling.
50:25 Okay, here's an example.
50:28 This happened, this is a couple of months ago,
50:30 we're sitting down Flo and I
50:31 with Jehovah's Witnesses.
50:33 No, I'm sorry, we were in the Kingdom Hall
50:35 and they have what's called the Watchtower
50:38 which is the first part of the Bible teaching,
50:40 but they're like their Sunday school
50:42 and then they have the worship part, so...
50:44 Oh, the Watchtower is the same as the periodical
50:46 that they give out?
50:47 Absolutely. Okay.
50:49 Same as a periodical.
50:50 So the first part is called the Watchtower
50:52 and so you go and it's a Watchtower magazine
50:55 that they study from so for this period.
50:58 So I was reading there
51:00 and they were discussing the fact
51:02 that Christendom in Jehovah's Witnesses lingo
51:07 Christian term is a very bad term.
51:09 So if they say, hey, you're in Christendom, don't,
51:12 please don't say thank you.
51:13 It's an insult to you.
51:16 And so, so they were saying how the fact that Christians,
51:21 that Christians are associated with the United Nations
51:25 and they are linked and leagued with the United Nations
51:29 proves how awful Christendom is.
51:33 Well, while I'm sitting there,
51:35 I pulled out my iPhone and I did a little research
51:40 and I found that in 1992,
51:43 the Jehovah's Witnesses had joined themselves
51:46 to the United Nations.
51:49 Now here is the, here is the problem that
51:51 this presented to the people
51:53 that we were studying with because after this,
51:55 the service we would go to their house for our studies.
51:59 And so I asked them about this
52:01 and said you know in the Watchtower today,
52:05 it talked about Christendom being wicked and evil
52:08 because they are so shaded with the United Nations.
52:11 I said, but I discovered
52:14 that the Jehovah's Witnesses church was actually associated
52:19 and joined a subset of the United Nations in 1992.
52:25 I said, so how do you say this about Christendom.
52:28 And you don't point the finger at yourself
52:31 as a church denomination
52:34 for having this spiritual failure.
52:35 How do you account for that?
52:38 And the immediate response was we've not seen that before
52:43 and we frankly don't believe that.
52:46 And so I pulled out my phone and it was right,
52:49 all of the documents and everything were.
52:51 In fact, for the next study,
52:53 I actually printed out a bunch of stuff
52:55 scanned and emailed to them in advance.
52:58 They have all of the paperwork it's, it's all there.
53:01 So when people are confronted with things like this,
53:04 so ultimately what did they say?
53:07 Ultimately, they said, "Well, you know,
53:10 human beings make mistakes
53:12 and we're not saying that our church is perfect.
53:14 Our church makes..."
53:15 Now before is our church would never do that
53:17 you know it's in their Watchtower
53:19 that the Christendom is wicked and evil
53:22 because of this, we would never do that, never.
53:25 And so when you have this, this,
53:27 this ha-ha moment and so now,
53:29 they have to concede that this is unfair.
53:32 So the second thing that you look for is
53:35 after you look for where
53:36 they don't have answers to things
53:38 is you look for retreat,
53:41 and so here is an instance in 1992,
53:44 instance of Jehovah's witnesses
53:45 actually joining the United Nations
53:47 where you have a point of retreat
53:50 where we've got to retreat now,
53:51 we're caught with our hands on the cookie jar
53:54 and so now we have to retreat, we got it
53:56 and so now we're just going to say that,
53:58 well, human beings make mistakes
53:59 and our leaders are not perfect and yeah,
54:02 you know, that kind of thing.
54:03 One of the things that I found is
54:06 because I had a really good friend
54:09 that was Jehovah's Witnesses
54:10 and she and I used to talk a lot,
54:12 and then other times I meet people
54:15 that were Jehovah's Witnesses and we would talk,
54:18 and one of the things that I realize is that
54:20 they have certain proof texts
54:23 that they will go to like sometimes we do,
54:26 but if you don't know more than just those proof texts,
54:31 that's not going to be enough
54:33 because that's one text
54:34 where we might be able to give ten
54:37 that really contradict or put that in a different context.
54:42 It's taken out of context.
54:45 And so one important thing to do I think with them too
54:50 is to think about,
54:53 like look at what they're saying,
54:54 look at what the word is saying, take it,
54:57 don't just use a proof text
55:00 but have several texts that substantiate your position
55:04 because a lot of times
55:06 they're just taught certain texts for certain things...
55:09 Right. And then that's it.
55:11 And they're locked in. And they're locked in.
55:12 You're absolutely right, Yvonne,
55:14 you raised an excellent question...
55:15 an excellent point
55:17 and one that I probably omitted,
55:20 could have stuck in earlier.
55:23 Whenever you're dealing with someone of a different faith,
55:27 you want to...
55:29 Once you establish what authority is,
55:32 you want to lock them into their position.
55:36 This is what we do in court.
55:39 You get a witness on the witness stand
55:41 whether an expert witness or fact witness,
55:43 you lock them into their testimony.
55:46 And then you come later with proof
55:49 that what they have testified to is wrong,
55:52 it's incorrect, it's inaccurate.
55:54 So whenever you're dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses
55:57 or an LDS or a Baptist or Lutheran
56:00 or Catholic or whatever it is,
56:01 lock them into what their position is say lip...
56:04 Can you give me an example? Please.
56:06 Here's a...
56:08 We got one minute though I can't believe it.
56:10 Okay. Give a quick example.
56:11 We're dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses
56:13 and they do not believe that the earth will burn.
56:16 They do not believe in the word
56:18 that the world will burn by fire.
56:20 So I took them to 2 Peter 3,
56:23 there is one word for burn in there
56:25 that actually means to loosen.
56:27 It means to loosen,
56:29 doesn't mean the fire kind of a burn,
56:30 but it means to loosen, so in looking at this,
56:33 I wanted to lock, I said,
56:34 I want you to just be clear what you're saying
56:36 that in all of the scripture from Genesis,
56:38 Revelation you're saying
56:40 that God will not destroy the world by fire,
56:42 and he said, no,
56:43 why would God ever destroy the world,
56:45 he would never do that.
56:46 Now of course,
56:47 we don't have time to get into the flood
56:49 which I brought up,
56:50 but the other thing is actually read the rest of 2 Peter 3,
56:54 clearly it's talking about fire burning,
56:58 the elements melting with fervent heat.
57:00 It is a clear and cogent statement about God
57:05 that the world will be burned up by fire,
57:08 but I had to lock them into that position
57:10 so that they could not later move.
57:12 Right.
57:13 All of this was good stuff.
57:14 Wasn't that good, Jay? Very, very.
57:16 Thank you so much.
57:17 I don't know where our time went.
57:19 Our time is gone. Pleasure is mine, Yvonne.
57:20 Thank you so much. Jason, pleasure is mine.
57:23 So good to be here.
57:24 Do you have a way for people to reach your website
57:28 or e-mail or something?
57:29 They can just go to
57:30 philip.ammons@comcast.net.
57:37 philip.ammons@comcast.net
57:41 and Philip is spelled with one L.
57:43 One L.
57:44 Ammons with two M's.
57:46 Okay, and then so people can write you
57:49 and maybe invite you to their church.
57:50 Absolutely.
57:52 I love to do it. Thank you.
57:53 Thank you so much and thank you, Jay.
57:55 It was so good.
57:56 And thank you for joining us.
57:58 Join us next time because you know what?
58:00 It just wouldn't be the same without you.


Revised 2017-01-30