Urban Report

Coming Out Ministries

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Yvonne Lewis (Host), Jason Bradley (Host), Wayne Blakely, Danielle Harrison, Ron Woolsey, Michael Carducci


Series Code: UBR

Program Code: UBR000221A

00:01 The Dare to Dream network
00:02 recognizes the importance of sharing the tools
00:04 to overcome temptations in every arena.
00:07 The program you're about to view
00:09 contains sensitive content.
00:11 Parental discretion is advised.
00:16 Stay tuned to meet four brands
00:18 plucked from the fire of gay culture.
00:20 My name is Yvonne Lewis.
00:22 And I'm Jason Bradley,
00:23 and you are watching Urban Report.
00:50 Hello, and welcome to Urban Report.
00:52 Our guests today are Wayne Blakely,
00:55 Mike Carducci, Danielle Harrison,
00:57 and Ron Woolsey from Coming Out Ministries,
01:00 and I've got my co-host, Jason.
01:03 All right. Jason Bradley.
01:05 Yay!
01:06 And we are going to be talking to this
01:08 wonderful group of people from Coming Out Ministries.
01:12 Yay!
01:14 You know, it's weird that we're on this set
01:16 'cause we're not,
01:17 we don't usually do Urban Report
01:19 from the Today set
01:20 but because there were so many people,
01:23 we had to just make an adjustment here
01:25 and praise the Lord, we can do that,
01:26 so we hope that you enjoy this and...
01:31 We have some questions.
01:33 First of all, you guys are no stranger
01:36 to Dare to Dream,
01:37 because you have done two seasons on Pure Choices.
01:41 We've aired your Journey Interrupted movie
01:45 and we're gonna talk more about that in a bit,
01:48 and we've had you on Urban Report.
01:51 So you are no strangers to Dare to Dream.
01:54 But each time you do something else, we just,
01:57 we really wanna support you
01:58 because you're out on the frontlines
02:01 and we know it.
02:02 So tell us a bit, first of all, about Coming Out Ministries.
02:06 Wayne, what is Coming Out Ministries
02:08 and why is it important?
02:10 Why is your message important?
02:12 Well, you know, for many years,
02:14 in church environments,
02:15 we didn't talk about the issue of homosexuality, so,
02:19 so many of us grew up with same-sex attraction
02:22 with no tools, no real support.
02:25 We identified homosexuality in God's word as sin,
02:30 but we just didn't,
02:32 we didn't provide anybody with any hope.
02:34 So as a result of that,
02:36 many of the church doors flew open
02:38 to all the same-sex attracted people
02:41 that were running out and saying,
02:43 "You know, I hear that
02:44 there's a gay community out there.
02:46 They look like they care about me."
02:48 And so we lost our focus on Jesus
02:53 and the focus became on our fleshly desires and,
02:57 you know, everybody suffers from something
02:59 but because we weren't talking about this,
03:02 and this happens often with other things,
03:05 there are people that have been ostracized from the church
03:08 that have sexual sin,
03:10 that we kind of refuse to talk about.
03:12 And now the pendulum has swung the other direction.
03:15 But, you know, God didn't forget us,
03:18 and He knows everybody's heart,
03:21 and I think He saw that in each of our hearts
03:24 we would respond to Him,
03:25 and we're from totally different places
03:28 in the United States and, yeah,
03:29 God came and got us and then,
03:31 put us together by divine appointment,
03:35 helped us recognize that there was no voice
03:37 in church environment,
03:39 that there were many people out there
03:41 that are aching, that are hurting,
03:43 that desperately want to be loved,
03:45 and they want Jesus in their life as well,
03:47 but they don't know how to bring the two together.
03:49 And God revealed Himself to us
03:52 and we are very much standing on God's word
03:55 and want people to realize that they can take God at His word.
03:59 And so, Coming Out Ministries, 5.5 years ago,
04:05 developed and formed on I Peter 2:9 that says,
04:09 "He brought us out of darkness into His marvelous light."
04:12 Amen.
04:14 That's true.
04:15 You have anything to add, Mike?
04:16 No, that was pretty fantastic.
04:19 One other things that I think is really remarkable is like
04:21 Wayne was saying that,
04:22 not only do we come from all across the United States
04:25 but each one of us have such a diverse story
04:27 and, really, that really makes up
04:29 the whole picture of redemption through Christ.
04:34 And you featured that in Journey Interrupted
04:38 which is just an incredible film.
04:41 And I'd like to show the trailer from it
04:43 because I'd like for our viewers to see,
04:46 'cause they're gonna be watching,
04:48 you know, on Dare to Dream.
04:49 We are going to air it, we've aired it already
04:51 and we're going to continue to air it periodically,
04:54 and so I'd like for them to kind of get a sense of
04:57 what this film is about.
04:58 So let's see it now.
05:04 I would look in the mirror
05:06 and I would punch myself in the face,
05:07 and I would scream at God,
05:09 and I would yell at Him and I would say,
05:10 "Why, God, why?
05:13 Why did you create a boy
05:15 when I was supposed to be a girl?"
05:21 So I prayed and I said, "I don't wanna live, Lord.
05:25 Take me now."
05:26 I just don't wanna go through what's coming.
05:28 I felt dirty.
05:29 I felt...
05:30 Well, I have been tainted.
05:32 I thought, "Okay, well, obviously,
05:34 this is something that I can't really tell anyone about."
05:37 I'm crying in my bed at night
05:38 because these things are happening
05:40 and, Jesus, I can't hear Him anymore.
05:46 I said, "How dare You?
05:48 You say that I'm an abomination when You made me this way,
05:50 that's not fair.
05:52 I didn't choose this thing, I didn't want this thing."
05:54 Why would I join a religion that tells me that
05:56 I'm just gonna die for being who I am?
05:58 Is this a different God than I was acquainted with,
06:02 when I was little?
06:06 I finally decided to just accept who I was,
06:09 and give up.
06:11 I believed that I was gay
06:13 and that it didn't match up with God's word,
06:15 and I was like, "Oh, well,
06:17 I don't know what to do about that."
06:18 I just kind of pushed everybody aside,
06:21 including my mom,
06:22 I just felt like, "Nobody else has been there,
06:25 why would she?"
06:26 I was desperate to be secure in my sin.
06:28 I did whatever I could.
06:30 I was, I was...
06:31 Tell me lies, tell me lies.
06:34 Lie to me.
06:40 I found myself on my knees
06:43 at the end of my bed and I said,
06:46 "God, I don't know how you could forgive me."
06:49 You still want me,
06:50 'cause everybody else rejected me,
06:52 everybody else turned their back on me,
06:53 you wanna go too now?
06:55 It's as though the devil was not going to let me go.
07:00 And if he could not entice me, he would turn to violence.
07:04 It's time for us to talk about this.
07:06 It's time for us to offer help.
07:07 If He is who I've been reading that He is,
07:11 it all makes sense.
07:14 How like God, to show me that
07:16 when I really started opening up myself
07:19 and making myself the most vulnerable
07:21 I've ever been in my entire life,
07:22 that what I get instead was not rejection,
07:25 but acceptance.
07:27 I shed My blood for you,
07:30 so that you can claim this victory.
07:34 It's freely yours.
07:35 All you have to do is give your heart to Me.
07:44 Wow!
07:46 What a great piece of work!
07:48 We have really enjoyed showing it on Dare to Dream,
07:51 and as I said before, we're going to continue to,
07:54 because your stories are so powerful.
07:57 And we know that you've been going around
08:00 to different places and people have questions,
08:03 and so we want to ask some of those questions today,
08:09 that you can help our viewers with
08:11 because we know that there are people all around
08:13 who want to know these things.
08:16 So, Jay, you wanna start?
08:17 Why not? Okay.
08:19 I'll start with the first one.
08:20 Ron, this is for you.
08:22 There are a lot of messages
08:23 that are being circulated in church culture today,
08:26 regarding the LGBT issue,
08:29 what is the message of Coming Out Ministries?
08:32 So much of what is taught and what is heard today
08:37 comes from a worldly perspective,
08:39 from political correctness,
08:41 from conventional thinking, from human reasoning,
08:44 but the foundation of our message is really found
08:47 in the word of God.
08:49 I John 4:8 tells us that God is love
08:52 and then we read in the II Timothy 3,
08:56 that all scripture is given by inspiration of God,
08:59 this God of love, it is profitable for doctrine,
09:02 for reproof, for correction, for instruction,
09:05 in righteousness,
09:07 that the Man of God may be perfect,
09:08 truly furnished unto all good works.
09:11 So we believe that if God is love,
09:15 then everything that He admonishes us,
09:19 His warnings, His reproof,
09:21 His promises, His counsels,
09:23 His judgments,
09:24 everything comes from the heart of a loving heavenly Father.
09:28 And so we approach this issue from the word of God
09:34 and we accept what He says about the LGBT issue,
09:38 the gay issue,
09:40 and our lives need to measure up to His expectations.
09:45 The word of God to us is like an owner's manual.
09:48 And we believe that our Creator knows
09:52 what's best for His created
09:54 and our heavenly Father knows what's best for the children
09:57 that He loves so much and so that is our perspective.
10:00 Nice.
10:02 Yeah, I have heard the Bible described as
10:03 "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth."
10:06 An acronym, right?
10:08 Yeah, absolutely.
10:09 Nice, nice.
10:11 Wayne, if God is love,
10:13 why would He be opposed to two people
10:15 loving each other exclusively,
10:18 in monogamous gay relationship?
10:22 Why would He be opposed to that?
10:25 Well, we have a little bit of a misperception about love.
10:32 I think when we look to God's pure love,
10:34 sometimes we don't study it,
10:38 to pick up the full meaning of that love.
10:42 What happens is that we get so focused on ourselves,
10:45 we begin to interpret our desires to be loved,
10:50 and so we don't have a perfect reflection of
10:53 what God's love really is.
10:55 I have...
10:56 For me, personally, I have to look to God's word
10:59 to see what brings honor and glory to Him.
11:02 And as I studied through God's word
11:04 in both the Old Testament and the New Testament,
11:08 He upholds marriage as being that between a man and a woman,
11:13 and there's not a single occurrence
11:17 of same-sex intimacy in God's word
11:20 that He would show that He ordains and sanctifies.
11:24 That's a big clue to me to know that
11:27 whether I'm on the right track
11:28 or whether maybe I need to put my focus
11:32 back on the word and see
11:34 what I can learn from God's word.
11:35 If we don't understand the plan of salvation,
11:39 if we don't understand what happened in heaven,
11:42 what the great controversy is,
11:44 that's when our vision starts getting distorted.
11:49 And so looking to Jesus,
11:51 we started looking at self and what my desires are and,
11:54 you know, as I shared, you know,
11:55 even in the film,
11:57 was that there weren't people helping us along the way.
12:00 We weren't studying, we weren't sitting down
12:03 and finding out
12:05 what is God really asking of me.
12:07 And even in the New Testament,
12:08 we see that God is calling us to self-denial.
12:11 Why would we deny something of ourselves
12:14 that is good for us?
12:16 You know, we wouldn't.
12:17 So I have to look and see what God is calling me to
12:20 and outside of the perfect plan of marriage
12:25 between one man and one woman,
12:28 God doesn't give me permission to go
12:30 and to do as my flesh desires.
12:33 So I need to fall in love with Jesus first,
12:37 before I would recognize that
12:39 I would give something up for Him.
12:42 And so it's hard, you know,
12:44 to anyone who's watching or listening to this,
12:49 it's hard to give up something that comes so natural to you,
12:53 but what is natural?
12:55 What's natural to us is actually sin.
12:58 And we've come to a point in life today
13:01 that we're listening to the voices of the world,
13:03 the language of others,
13:04 campaigns out there that says, "Follow your heart.
13:08 Listen to yours, you know,
13:09 what your soul is saying to you."
13:11 But what I found that I needed to listen to,
13:14 was what God is saying to me.
13:16 And so, marriage by definition, it isn't the same-sex union,
13:21 and I don't see that anywhere in God's word
13:24 that He does show approval for this
13:26 and so it really isn't representative of God's pure
13:30 or ultimate love for us.
13:33 That's a great answer.
13:34 Yeah, it is.
13:36 That's a great answer.
13:38 I was gonna say something,
13:39 but I had a minor case of amnesia.
13:44 So we'll get back to the questions.
13:46 You're so young.
13:49 All right, Danielle, this is for you.
13:51 How can I, as a Christian,
13:53 minister to someone who identifies as LGBTQ?
13:57 It's a great question that we actually get a lot,
13:59 almost everywhere that we go,
14:01 and the beautiful thing I think is that
14:03 we would minister to them
14:04 just like we would minister to anyone else, you know.
14:07 Christ is very effective in reaching the people
14:10 in the way that He spent time with them,
14:13 you know, He showed His sympathy,
14:15 He showed them by His actions that He cared for them
14:18 and it was through that action that
14:20 He showed that He could be trusted
14:23 and that He had their best interest in mind.
14:26 And it was through building that kind of a confidence
14:29 between Him and the people He was trying to reach,
14:32 that He was able, eventually, to invite them to follow Him.
14:36 And I think that that's what we have to remember
14:38 that we have to do.
14:39 No one is gonna be interested in understanding
14:43 our ideas of life, and philosophy, and morals,
14:47 if they don't really believe that
14:49 we have their best interests in mind.
14:51 And so the best thing that we can do is
14:53 just to step forward
14:55 and to build a friendship with them.
14:57 Build that kind of trust with them.
14:58 And so often with any person
15:00 who lives differently than we do,
15:03 it's easy for us to focus on the differences
15:05 that we have from them and feel that the walls go up
15:09 because of those differences
15:10 and our focus on the differences.
15:12 But if we focus on the commonalities that we have,
15:15 we can find that those are the bridges
15:17 into the person's heart
15:19 and we can connect through those simple things,
15:21 and then just build like I said,
15:24 that confidence and that friendship.
15:26 And it's through the friendship that,
15:27 eventually, they'll see something
15:29 different in our lives.
15:31 They'll see something that they want to have,
15:33 the joy, and the peace,
15:35 and the gentleness, and the meekness,
15:36 the fruits of the Spirit,
15:38 and it will be those things that will draw them
15:40 into having a desire to know more about
15:42 what's working for us.
15:44 At least, that's what happened for me
15:46 and what drew me into having a desire
15:48 to learn more about Christ from my Christian friends
15:51 and so I think that that's what we have to do with anyone
15:55 and especially with people
15:56 who are struggling with same-sex attraction,
15:58 gender confusion.
16:00 And all along the way, of course,
16:01 we can't move one step forward without prayer.
16:05 And that is something that each one of us acknowledge
16:08 in our own personal experiences was that,
16:10 it was the prayers of the people
16:12 that we loved,
16:14 that really allowed angels to come into our lives,
16:16 allowed the Holy Spirit to come into our lives
16:18 when we needed it the most.
16:20 And sometimes we look at prayer as our last result,
16:24 but really it's our first defense.
16:26 We need to be consistently
16:27 and intentionally praying for the people
16:29 that we want to minister to
16:31 and that's the only way that we're gonna be effective.
16:33 Absolutely.
16:35 It came back to me.
16:36 Okay, so...
16:39 What I was gonna say was, when you were talking, Wayne,
16:43 you know, we search for all the answers
16:45 in all the wrong places when really
16:47 the right answers are contained in the word of God, you know,
16:51 that's the book of life
16:52 and what the world has for us is death,
16:54 you know, so we search the world
16:58 and all these different perspectives
17:00 to fill a void that only Christ can fill.
17:03 And what you were saying, Danielle,
17:05 is excellent because without
17:08 kind of cultivating a relationship,
17:10 without getting to know people,
17:13 like you don't just introduce them to,
17:15 okay, no, you can't eat pork.
17:17 No, you can't do this.
17:19 No, you can't do...
17:20 Why?
17:21 You know, you have to know about Christ
17:24 and what's that He wants.
17:26 What He wants for you is the best.
17:29 He wants to prolong your life.
17:30 He wants you to be saved.
17:32 He wants to save you.
17:33 I like to elaborate just a little bit in that,
17:37 you know, doesn't...
17:39 Is God trustworthy?
17:41 You know, that's the first thing
17:42 that has to come to any of our mind.
17:43 Can I trust God?
17:45 Because if I don't develop that,
17:47 then I'm not going to want to abide by His Word.
17:50 I have to go back to the beginning
17:52 and ask myself, was the forbidden...
17:55 Was the fruit on the forbidden tree,
17:57 was it delicious?
17:58 Was it good?
17:59 Why did God not want Adam and Eve to partake of it?
18:03 You know, and really what it boils down to is His Word
18:07 because He asked them not to.
18:09 And so something may feel good, it may seem right to us,
18:13 but God knows better
18:16 and He's trying to protect us, you know,
18:18 His law is law,
18:19 and that's the part about the friendship evangelism,
18:23 by introducing someone to Jesus,
18:26 and helping them see that they can trust Him,
18:30 and fall in love with Him,
18:31 then His principles become
18:33 something that I can practically apply to my life.
18:36 Absolutely.
18:37 That's where you start.
18:39 You start by, you know,
18:41 connecting with people and you introduce them to Jesus
18:45 because everything else after that,
18:47 if you go out of sequence, it doesn't make any sense.
18:52 You just, you know,
18:54 you'll fall in a legalistic path
18:55 or whatever but if you
18:57 go down that path of
18:58 introducing them to Jesus first,
19:01 you know, that means that everything else
19:04 then just falls sequentially into place,
19:06 so that's really the key.
19:08 That's why it's important to live Christianity
19:11 and not just really profess it.
19:13 You know, you can say things all day
19:16 but someone needs a coat, you have a coat.
19:19 I mean, you have an extra coat
19:21 or you have a coat that they need
19:23 and you don't give it to them.
19:24 You'll be like, "Oh, I'll pray for you."
19:26 You're right.
19:27 I'll pray for you,
19:28 but you're not meeting their need at that time, you know.
19:32 Michael, how do you respond to people
19:35 who quote the text that says,
19:37 text that appeared to be definitive about homosexuality?
19:41 How do you deal with people with that?
19:44 You know, I try to use my own experience, you know,
19:47 with that question.
19:48 And, Jason, I believe that
19:50 you didn't forget the statement you want to make.
19:52 I believe that the Lord just held it back a little
19:54 because you talked about how making the base
19:57 just the word of God.
19:58 I remember when I was baptized and told my boyfriend,
20:01 "Now, here I am, you know, an Adventist",
20:03 and he dragged me to the Unitarian church,
20:06 to the gay church,
20:08 and we sat there with the priest in the gay church
20:10 and she went through all of the different texts
20:12 about homosexuality in the Bible.
20:14 And as desperate as I was to hold on to my boyfriend
20:18 and my identity,
20:19 even the Holy Spirit was giving me this understanding
20:24 and every scripture text that she was using,
20:27 it didn't even make sense from my perspective,
20:30 and I wasn't a Bible, you know, scholar and here she was,
20:33 and I remember thinking to myself,
20:35 "Well, that's a silly explanation."
20:36 You know, it's interesting people talk about, you know,
20:39 show me a scripture text that talks about, you know,
20:41 same-sex monogamy.
20:43 Well, there is one in Leviticus
20:44 and it says when a man lies with a man,
20:47 a monogamous relationship,
20:49 that it's an abomination, you know.
20:51 And so there we have a very literal example of that,
20:54 and then, of course, you can go to Romans chapter 1
20:57 where it talks about serving
21:00 the creature rather than the Creator.
21:03 And then in Jude, it talks about the sin of Sodom
21:06 and Gomorrah wasn't hospitality,
21:08 it was lust and lust wasn't restricted to just same-sex,
21:12 behavior was also lust in general,
21:14 and then, you know,
21:16 when I think about those applications for me,
21:19 as I really started to study the word of God for myself,
21:22 I realized that God wasn't condemning the person
21:25 that had same-sex attraction,
21:26 He was condemning the behavior,
21:29 which for me was a whole breakthrough,
21:31 it's like, thank you, God,
21:32 that I'm not guilty just because I have these thoughts
21:35 because I believe that God knows there's a reason
21:37 why you have those thoughts.
21:39 But as long as you're not acting in that behavior
21:41 because those behaviors separate You from me,
21:44 they cut you off from the things
21:46 that God wants to bless us with,
21:48 and so I started to realize that there are reasons
21:51 for why I had those attractions.
21:53 But that God says, "By not acting in them,
21:56 I can address them and I can bring you into healing."
21:59 And that was powerful for me, personally.
22:01 Feel like I'm so glad you brought this out
22:03 because it's the act that's the abomination,
22:06 not the person.
22:08 Yes.
22:09 And I think so often we can get caught up, you know,
22:13 as a church and saying, you know,
22:16 well, this is an abomination, you're an abomination.
22:18 No, you, the one who's in, who's caught up in that,
22:23 you're not the abomination, the act is, and that's the key.
22:28 God loves you.
22:29 He loves you just as you are. He loves you.
22:32 He's not gonna keep you as you are.
22:34 You're not gonna stay as you are once you turn to God
22:37 but He loves you right where you are
22:39 and I think that's what people need to know.
22:41 Yeah.
22:42 So the other part about,
22:43 if we accept the word of God as the manual,
22:47 as you said, Jason, then what's happening now is
22:50 we have this gay affirming group in Christianity,
22:52 even in our own denomination that are saying
22:55 that the words of Moses and Paul are,
22:58 they don't apply anymore.
22:59 Archaic.
23:00 Yeah, that they're archaic
23:02 and so we should just take them out of the Bible.
23:03 So, you know,
23:04 even when you look at I Corinthians chapter 6,
23:07 that to all of us was extremely powerful
23:10 because it says in verse 11, it says,
23:12 "Such were some of you, "
23:14 and it wasn't talking about just the homosexual,
23:16 which it does mention,
23:17 it was talking about adulterers,
23:20 or fornicators, gossip, you know,
23:22 so all of those things in verse 11 is really wrapped up
23:26 the promise that,
23:27 "Hey, I can give you something beyond
23:29 what you've experienced now."
23:31 And for us, especially, for us,
23:34 we find that that's a great promise that
23:36 we'd never heard before even in Christian culture.
23:40 I'm glad that you said that because, you know,
23:42 we have a tendency to put different sins on pedestals.
23:45 Okay, come on.
23:48 Homosexual sin and heterosexual sin is what?
23:51 Sin. You're right.
23:53 I call it what it is, you know.
23:55 If you're a heterosexual and you sin,
23:57 you're gonna end up in the same, you know,
24:00 it can get pretty hot, you know.
24:02 Right.
24:03 And if you are a homosexual and you sin,
24:06 it can get pretty hot.
24:08 You know, a sin is sin.
24:10 There is a story in the Bible.
24:12 There was a lady, and I forgot who it was,
24:17 but she was been judged by a bunch of men.
24:20 She was an adulterer.
24:23 And she was being judged by a bunch of men,
24:24 and they were ready to stone her,
24:26 and I don't know what it was about those times
24:30 but people were so just, they would,
24:31 just seem to be ready to stone people some times.
24:34 So, they were prepared to stone this lady and Jesus said,
24:39 "He who's without sin, let him cast the first stone,"
24:42 and He started writing out in the sand people's sin.
24:45 Well, you can imagine the crowd dispersed
24:47 very, very, very fast.
24:50 You know, people look and judge,
24:55 but sin is sin.
24:57 Sin is sin.
24:59 And the great thing about Jesus is
25:03 He'll take you wherever you are
25:06 and He'll heal those broken spots.
25:10 Amen.
25:11 He'll just heal all of your brokenness
25:13 and that's what we all need.
25:15 We all need it 'cause we all have sin.
25:18 Yeah, there's this cop out today though,
25:21 in Church congregations, you know,
25:25 the way they wanna look at homosexuality,
25:27 because it's kind of like on the cutting edge these days,
25:31 is that while we're all sinners,
25:32 you know, yeah,
25:34 we all are and so we should be helping each other.
25:36 James 5:16 says, "Hey, let's come together.
25:39 Let's pray for one another.
25:40 Let's pray for the healing that God promises.
25:43 We should be able to come together
25:44 and lift each other up in prayer.
25:46 Not leave ourselves the way we are
25:49 but to let Jesus bring about change
25:51 in every single one of our lives."
25:52 Yeah, Christ didn't alienate people.
25:54 That's right.
25:55 Yeah, He didn't alienate people.
25:57 Okay.
25:58 So, we have another question for you, Danielle.
26:00 Okay.
26:01 If my child confides in me that they are gay
26:04 or struggles with same-sex attraction,
26:06 how should I respond?
26:08 Well, this is a very important question
26:11 and the fact that I think we try to help
26:14 encourage parents everywhere that we go,
26:17 to open the doors for conversations
26:19 with their young people, with their children, you know.
26:22 Often we want to drive people to see their,
26:27 what they're doing is wrong by using shame.
26:29 And not just for us as parents, but often in the church
26:34 or whatever situation we are,
26:35 we want to try and show people what they're doing is wrong.
26:38 But a lot of the times when we use shame to try
26:42 and correct someone,
26:44 it doesn't really, it doesn't bring them to the solution.
26:47 It doesn't bring them through the situation
26:49 and so I would just encourage a parent
26:52 that has a child coming to them and opening up to them,
26:55 that this is a wonderful thing,
26:57 a wonderful thing that your child feels a level of comfort
27:01 and confidence in you that they can come to you
27:04 and talk to you about this
27:05 because so many young people feel
27:06 that they could never talk to their parents
27:08 about struggling with sexual sin.
27:11 I've met with a number of young girls in our academies
27:16 and situations like that
27:17 where they're struggling with pornography
27:18 or masturbation and I've asked them if they have,
27:22 you know, had,
27:24 if they've walked forward and talked to their parents
27:26 to have some kind of accountability
27:28 but they're too afraid to do that.
27:30 They don't feel like they can have those conversations.
27:32 So the first thing I would do is encourage this parent that
27:36 that is good, you need to keep those channels of communication
27:39 open with your child and so shaming them
27:41 for coming to you is the last thing
27:42 that you should do.
27:44 But encourage them into a true understanding
27:48 about what the Bible really says,
27:49 I mean, when I was young,
27:51 like Wayne says the church tells us
27:53 that homosexuality is sin
27:55 but that's the end of the conversation.
27:57 I knew that the Bible condemned homosexuality
28:00 but I never really understood God's reasoning through that.
28:04 And when I sat down with the young girl
28:05 who was struggling with homosexuality
28:08 and I just said,
28:09 "Let's look at some of these verses,
28:11 let's reason through this."
28:12 God says, "Come and let us reason together."
28:14 Let's talk about what this really says
28:16 and come to understand
28:17 why God would say this isn't good for us.
28:19 And that made a profound impact on
28:22 not only how she saw homosexuality
28:26 but the choices that she was ready
28:28 and willing to make in her own experience.
28:30 And so, I think sitting down and reasoning through things
28:33 with young people, especially our children,
28:36 is most advantageous.
28:38 And then just giving them the courage
28:40 and the hope that Jesus can help us with this.
28:43 The world wants to tell us that we're born this way,
28:45 we can't change, there's no hope.
28:47 But that's simply not true.
28:49 And we have to believe that ourselves
28:50 if we can teach that to our children, right?
28:52 And we are here to tell you that it is possible.
28:56 And so that's the message that
28:58 our young people need to be hearing,
29:00 that victory is possible in Christ.
29:02 He can give us the victory. Amen.
29:04 So creating a comfortable environment for the child to be
29:07 vulnerable and taking them to the word of God,
29:09 claiming the promises and moving forward.
29:12 Amen. Okay.
29:13 That's great. Excellent.
29:15 Yeah. For sure.
29:16 Ron, I've heard about different people
29:20 who have kids that are gay
29:22 and their kids are gonna get married,
29:25 not to each other but, you know,
29:27 they're gonna have a wedding.
29:30 Should a parent attend their gay son
29:33 or daughter's wedding and how do you deal with that?
29:36 And this is becoming quite a dilemma
29:38 even within the church,
29:39 especially, since the Supreme Court
29:44 passed down a ruling,
29:45 normalizing gay marriage in all 50 states.
29:49 And as we go from church to church,
29:51 we find that churches are very confused about this issue,
29:55 we've even heard people in the church say,
29:57 "Well, now that
29:58 the Supreme Court has made a ruling,
29:59 you know, it's up to us to abide
30:01 by the laws of the land."
30:03 And we tend to forget God's law trumps man's law.
30:07 That's right.
30:08 Because if we don't allow God's law to be supreme,
30:11 then there's some other laws
30:13 that are going to be coming down,
30:15 that are going to be involved
30:18 in the final tests for God's people.
30:20 But, you know, this question,
30:22 it's a very delicate issue, a very sensitive issue.
30:29 We don't want to be dogmatic
30:31 because we know that parents are really caught up
30:35 with their love for their children,
30:37 and they don't want to hurt them,
30:38 and they want to show unconditional love.
30:42 But we do have a position that we take
30:44 and we hope that people will benefit from our observation
30:49 and perspective and that is,
30:51 that in the Garden of Eden in the very beginning,
30:54 there were two institutions created.
30:57 There were twin institutions. Marriage was one.
31:00 And both of these institutions are sacred.
31:03 And as Christians, we need to respect that marriage is
31:08 and was designed to be a sacred union
31:11 between a man and a woman.
31:13 And if we go to a gay wedding,
31:18 we will be giving the impression,
31:20 whether we condone it or not,
31:22 we will be giving the impression
31:25 that we condone this union,
31:27 that we are adding our blessing to it.
31:30 And you talk about the counterfeit,
31:32 well, this is certainly a counterfeit of God's design
31:35 and we don't want to give credence to the counterfeit
31:39 of what God has designed.
31:41 So, I have counseled a number of people
31:44 that have been caught up in these types of situations
31:46 and they're, you know,
31:49 very confused and very concerned.
31:52 And so, you know, we advise people,
31:55 show unconditional love, of course,
31:58 for your son, or daughter, or friend,
32:00 but you don't have to go to a gay wedding to do that.
32:04 Make sure you're involved in their lives in other ways.
32:07 We had a couple in Arkansas
32:10 that had this very issue come up
32:13 and they are gay,
32:14 one of their twin sons was gay
32:17 and he was getting married in California.
32:20 They flew out a week before the wedding.
32:22 They spent time with their son and with his partner,
32:25 a lot of quality time, doing a lot of things
32:28 that they could do outside of a sacred setting
32:31 or what should be a sacred setting.
32:33 They did not go to the wedding.
32:35 They did not go to the reception.
32:36 They stayed a week afterwards
32:39 and spent more time with the son and so forth.
32:42 And they came home with great peace
32:44 because they felt, and they told me,
32:48 "Our son cannot say we were too cheap
32:50 to make the trip
32:51 or that we didn't love him enough to be there,
32:54 because we went far above and beyond
32:57 what he was expecting."
32:59 And then you have also, in conjunction with that,
33:02 what about the yearly anniversary?
33:05 We know of some churches
33:06 that actually celebrate gay anniversaries
33:10 in the church bulletin.
33:11 And that's, you know, that's rather shocking.
33:15 But there are ways that we can show our love
33:18 for these people on a continued basis
33:20 without drawing attention to the anniversary.
33:23 We can send them
33:24 "Thinking of you" cards throughout the year.
33:27 Don't wait for one of these occasions to make contact.
33:31 Be in communication
33:33 and have an ongoing relationship
33:35 throughout the year.
33:37 And there are so many ways in which you can be involved
33:39 in the lives of these dear family members
33:43 and friends in a secular setting,
33:46 outside of what should be a sacred institution.
33:52 That's a great answer.
33:53 And the other institution, at creation,
33:56 there were two, marriage and the Sabbath.
33:59 Right. And that would be the Sabbath.
34:00 And see, I, just to follow up this little bit more on that,
34:05 we are being tested, I believe today.
34:09 How are we going to stand for one of God's commandments?
34:13 And not only is the devil testing to see
34:16 if he can get away with legislating
34:19 a redefinition of marriage on a global basis,
34:23 but eventually, he's going to try legislating
34:27 a redefinition of the fourth commandment, Sabbath.
34:30 And we need to realize that he's testing us
34:33 on a very sacred institution here,
34:36 in preparation for his final assault
34:40 on the fourth commandment having to do with worship.
34:43 And so we need to really think carefully
34:47 about these issues.
34:49 Good.
34:51 Mike, okay, is there a Biblical conclusion
34:55 as to whether one is born gay?
34:59 I like the way you phrase that,
35:01 the conclusion on your beginning, right?
35:04 So when I came to Christ, again, I wanted to know why.
35:08 From my earliest thoughts, you know,
35:09 I bought into the whole idea that I was born this way.
35:12 I don't remember a time
35:13 when I wasn't odd or different from the other boys in school.
35:17 So as God was generous to show me
35:20 that there were reasons or things that had happened,
35:23 I looked at even Exodus 20:8,
35:25 talking about the sins of the generations
35:27 that have followed to three and four generations.
35:30 And I could see even in my parents' history,
35:34 through the generations that there was sexual sin.
35:36 And while I wasn't born gay, what had happened is
35:39 I got derailed by the rejection of my father,
35:42 the gender confusion which followed me
35:44 until I was 20 years old,
35:45 identifying with my mother instead of my dad,
35:47 so that helped me to realize
35:50 that we were all born in inequity,
35:52 we were all shaped in inequity and born into sin.
35:55 And that helps me to understand that
35:57 that was the beginning.
35:58 But the beautiful thing
36:00 and I have to go back to the movie
36:01 and quote something that Ron said.
36:03 He said, "Jesus does have an answer to that,
36:05 and that we all must be born again."
36:07 And I'd like to use, you know, the scripture verse,
36:10 II Corinthians 5:17.
36:12 It says, "If any man be in Christ,
36:13 he is a new creature.
36:15 Old things are passed away,
36:17 behold, all things are become new."
36:19 And so that's why we're not gay Christians, we're,
36:23 you know, we don't identify ourselves
36:25 with even the sin temptation
36:27 because Jesus was tempted like all of us
36:29 and yet without sin.
36:31 And so because I still may struggle with those thoughts
36:33 inside my head,
36:34 I'm not engaging in that behavior
36:36 because my identity now is not in my struggle,
36:39 my identity now is in Christ.
36:42 And there's a beautiful quote I'd like to share.
36:44 It says, "Through the power of Christ,
36:46 men and women have broken the chains of sinful habit."
36:50 That doesn't mean that the struggle goes away
36:52 but the habit, God gives us the victory over.
36:55 "They've renounced selfishness.
36:57 The profane had become reverent,
36:59 the drunken sober, and the profligate pure.
37:03 Souls that have borne the likeness of Satan
37:05 have become transformed into the image of God.
37:08 This change is, in itself, the miracle of miracles.
37:12 A change wrought by the Word,
37:14 it is one of the deepest mysteries of the Word.
37:16 We cannot understand it, we can only believe,
37:19 as declared by the Scriptures,
37:21 it is 'Christ in you, the hope of glory.'"
37:24 And one of the scripture texts
37:25 that I use a lot in my own presentations
37:28 is Philippians 2:5,
37:29 and simply says allowing the mind of Christ to come in.
37:33 And so what was really earth-shattering for me
37:36 is that, Jesus wasn't saying, "Stop being gay,"
37:39 because He knew that that was the struggle
37:42 that I created and that I'd cultivated.
37:44 He was saying, "Just stop resisting me."
37:46 Because He knew I couldn't stop being gay.
37:48 So as I, you know, yearned more for Christ,
37:52 as He was more faithful to me,
37:54 I started to realize that by claiming the mind of Christ
37:57 that I found there was victory on the other side of that.
38:00 It didn't take away the struggle,
38:01 it didn't mean that all of sudden,
38:03 it was gone "Poof!"
38:04 you know, like a magic wand
38:06 but instead what it was, was this,
38:08 this combination of working with Christ.
38:10 As I stopped resisting him,
38:12 I found that there was power and victory over the things
38:14 that had become master of my life.
38:16 Amen. So you're a co-laborer with Christ?
38:18 Hallelujah. I love it.
38:20 So, Wayne, how do you identify yourself today?
38:24 Are you an ex-gay?
38:25 Are you...
38:27 Like, where are you in this whole thing?
38:29 You know, that was a question that I had after my conversion
38:34 and I was at a, my first speaking engagement.
38:37 And I said to the person who helped me find Christ.
38:41 I said, "Oh, who am I today?"
38:44 And she said, "Oh, you're still a gay."
38:46 And I said, "No, I don't think so.
38:49 I couldn't possibly be
38:50 because what did I just give up?
38:52 If I just went through this process of conversion,
38:55 and repentance,
38:57 and giving my life over to Christ,
38:58 I'm not the same person who I used to be."
39:01 And it became a real focus of my study.
39:04 And as Mike alluded to, as we're talking about, here,
39:08 about what your true identity is,
39:09 II Corinthians 5:17 is very clear that
39:13 when I give myself over to Jesus Christ,
39:15 I become a new creation.
39:17 Let's say that you find that, that in your life,
39:20 you've participated in being a glutton,
39:23 and you're convicted by a health message,
39:27 and you began to eat right,
39:30 and you shed all kinds of pounds,
39:32 and pretty soon, you know,
39:33 you find that you're a fit person,
39:36 do you now identify as a fat Christian?
39:40 You know, or a non practicing fat Christian?
39:44 You know, it doesn't make sense.
39:46 So, all right, so, and some were like,
39:48 "Oh, well, that's not,
39:49 you know, that's not quite enough.
39:50 I don't know, you know,
39:52 I still think you're still a gay."
39:53 "Okay, so let's go to Paul who was on the way to Damascus,
39:57 and God said, 'Stop,
39:59 stop being in the support of killing of Christians
40:02 and become a Christian.'
40:03 And he agrees and he goes forward,
40:05 but the ministry that God gave him,
40:07 does he identify
40:09 as a Christian-killing Christian?"
40:11 You know, he doesn't. It doesn't make any sense.
40:13 So we throw out all of these analogies today,
40:16 of which any one thinks
40:18 it's absolutely ridiculous to identify
40:20 except for when we get to gay,
40:23 there are so many people
40:26 in and outside of Christianity today,
40:28 who still wanna say, "You're a gay, no matter what,"
40:31 which kind of brings us back to the great thing
40:35 that Bill Wilson did for alcoholics
40:37 in helping them find sobriety.
40:40 But he did something that the Bible doesn't do.
40:43 And he hung an albatross around their neck saying that,
40:46 "Every time you come into a meeting,
40:48 you still identify as an alcoholic,
40:50 even if you haven't drank for 40 years."
40:53 But if you come to the foot of the cross of Jesus Christ,
40:57 does He say, "My dear alcoholic,"
41:01 or does He say to you,
41:03 "My dear child, my new believer in Christ,
41:06 my new creation in Jesus today."
41:11 You have something in Jesus that the world can't give you.
41:15 And so your focus...
41:16 Our focus today is not in that the fact
41:20 that I'm still maybe tempted today
41:22 and I have to identify by those temptations.
41:25 But what am I doing with the temptation?
41:28 Am I surrendering to Jesus Christ?
41:30 Or am I walking forward
41:32 as a new creature in Jesus Christ?
41:34 A good response to that,
41:35 when somebody says that you're still a gay,
41:38 you'll be like, "Oh, so you believe that
41:39 God can't give you the victory, huh?"
41:42 Exactly. You're making God in a box.
41:44 Yeah, absolutely.
41:47 Danielle, if someone is struggling
41:49 with same-sex attraction,
41:50 how can they get control over their thoughts?
41:53 Well, I think that's the perfect place
41:55 to start really is with the thoughts
41:57 because our thoughts drive our actions,
42:00 and our actions form our habits,
42:02 and that's really
42:04 where the battle begins for all of us,
42:07 it's with our thoughts.
42:08 And so I think that's the place that all of us need to begin
42:11 if we want to establish ourselves in victory
42:14 and to have a new set of habits and a new character in life.
42:20 I think the most important thing for us to do
42:23 when it comes to our thoughts is to recognize that
42:25 if there's any thought that enters into our mind
42:27 that's not in harmony with the expressed will of God,
42:30 we can be sure that that thought was encouraged
42:33 or cultivated from the enemy of souls, right?
42:36 If it didn't come from the Lord,
42:38 then it must have been encouraged
42:39 from some other source.
42:41 And so at that point,
42:44 we can recognize that this is coming from the enemy
42:48 and therefore, we don't have to accept it
42:50 as our own thought.
42:52 A lot of the times, the enemy will step in
42:54 and he will present ideas or temptations to us
42:58 in first person so that we think
43:00 that we're thinking in this direction.
43:01 We think that this is who we are
43:03 because it keeps coming into our minds,
43:06 but when we acknowledge the fact
43:07 that we don't have to own this thought as our own,
43:10 we can say, "No, this is not from God, this is not mine.
43:14 This is from the enemy.
43:15 And I'm going to reject this thought.
43:17 And I'm not gonna allow my thoughts to travel
43:21 across in these directions anymore.
43:23 Instead, I'm gonna turn away from that thought
43:26 and I'm gonna place my attention,
43:29 my mental attention, and focus
43:30 on what God says about this thing."
43:34 You know, if the enemy is trying to tell me
43:38 that I'm gay and that I have to give into these temptations
43:41 or that this is just who I am,
43:43 I can put my mind back on these promises
43:45 that my brothers have been sharing with us
43:47 or my favorite is Philippians 1:6,
43:50 that says, "I can be confident in the very fact
43:53 that if God has began a work in me,
43:55 He will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ,
43:58 until the character of His Son is formed within my heart
44:01 and until Christ comes to receive me."
44:03 And so that's where I can place my focus,
44:06 that's where I can place my trust.
44:08 And so we have to practice the art,
44:11 it really does require attention and focus.
44:15 We have to become mindful of where our thoughts are running.
44:17 And we have to turn away from those temptations,
44:20 turn away from the lies,
44:22 and focus our mind on the truths of God.
44:25 And the more that we do that, the more we become like Christ
44:29 because as we behold, we become changed, right?
44:32 So instead of just allowing my thoughts to continue
44:34 in the negative direction,
44:36 I can place my mind on Christ and in doing that,
44:40 God will work in my character
44:41 and it will become more natural for me
44:43 to turn to Him just like the flower turns
44:45 towards the sun.
44:46 You are preaching. You better go, girl.
44:50 Preaching. Amen.
44:51 I love it. I love it.
44:53 Yeah, it's so important that we yield the will.
44:58 The will is a very powerful thing.
45:01 We can either kind of be reactive or proactive.
45:06 And if we are proactive
45:08 and develop spiritual disciplines,
45:10 you know, and know that,
45:13 "Okay, I have got to talk to the Lord.
45:15 I have got to because if I don't,
45:17 I will sink."
45:19 It's like the guest on another program
45:22 that we did said,
45:24 "It's just like air,
45:25 if you're drowning, you need air.
45:28 If you're drowning in temptation,
45:31 you have to have Jesus.
45:33 Otherwise you're just gonna sink."
45:35 And it really makes sense.
45:38 We have to give our will to Him.
45:40 So I loved your explanation for that. It's beautiful.
45:45 Ron, how do, as a Christian,
45:50 how do I know if somebody who is gay
45:53 or it's that they used to be gay
45:55 and now they're converted?
45:57 How do you know if they're converted?
46:00 You know, the word of God says,
46:01 "By their fruits, ye shall know them."
46:05 And I know there are a lot of people
46:06 that come to summon our group saying,
46:09 "Well, when are you getting married?
46:12 If you get married, then we'll know you're cured."
46:16 It's a total misunderstanding of what conversion is.
46:21 And one thing we need to, not be private investigators.
46:26 If a person is coming into the faith,
46:29 and they are excited about the Lord,
46:31 and they are turning over new leaf,
46:32 and they are renouncing sin,
46:35 and even acknowledging what their sin was,
46:38 we need to accept that.
46:40 Now if a person comes into the faith
46:43 or into the church,
46:45 and then they start manifesting defense of sin,
46:50 or an agenda, or they're in open sin,
46:55 then we have a problem.
46:58 If they are confronted because we are to,
47:00 if someone is dealing, is involved in open sin,
47:03 they are to be approached, it's a redemptive process.
47:08 If that person is defending the open sin,
47:12 that's a sign of not being converted.
47:16 And if a person is acknowledging that
47:20 they're struggling with sin, and struggling with temptation,
47:24 that's a good sign because, of course,
47:27 there are three texts of scripture
47:29 that really were pivotal in my experience.
47:33 The one about Jesus in Hebrews 4
47:35 that said He was tempted in all points like it's me,
47:39 yet without sin.
47:41 I have heard some people say,
47:42 "Surely you don't mean Jesus was tempted like that, do you?"
47:47 And I said, "Well, how do you think
47:48 He was tempted, like you?"
47:50 You know.
47:52 He was tempted like me.
47:54 Don't take that text away from me
47:57 but Jesus was tempted in all points,
47:59 so it's not a sin to be tempted.
48:01 Otherwise, Jesus might have been the chiefest of sinners,
48:04 not the Apostle Paul or Ron Woolsey.
48:06 And then there's Hebrews 2 that says
48:09 that Jesus suffered being tempted.
48:13 He struggled.
48:15 Well, struggle is something that makes you strong.
48:18 It's okay to struggle with temptation.
48:21 It's the giving in, that's the problem.
48:24 It's the giving up, that's the problem.
48:27 And Jesus resisted, Hebrews 12,
48:29 He resisted under blood striving against sin.
48:32 And so, if we find someone who is struggling
48:35 with temptation, and struggling with sin,
48:38 that's healthy because they're resisting.
48:43 And we need to help them in that resistance,
48:45 help them know how to submit to God on a daily basis,
48:49 then resist the devil, and he will flee.
48:52 Amen.
48:53 But a sure sign of someone not being converted is
48:56 when they are trying to get the church
48:59 to change its position about sin
49:02 rather than the sinner changing his behavior.
49:05 And so we can, I mean,
49:08 we are supposed to be able to discern these things
49:11 that we should not be private investigators
49:13 and try to snoop out someone
49:16 who is coming in from a life of a practice
49:21 that we don't understand,
49:22 or we think is really repulsive,
49:24 or whatever.
49:25 Give them the rain
49:27 that they need to bring forth the fruit
49:30 that they need to, for repentance,
49:33 and to demonstrate that fruit of conversion.
49:36 It's good. It's good.
49:39 Mike, my pastor is gay affirming
49:42 and I don't want to approve of sin.
49:45 How can I be an example of Christ's love
49:47 and not accept gay monogamy
49:50 without being perceived as a bigot?
49:52 Right, it's interesting that Ron's question was
49:55 before my question
49:57 because that really is what we're finding wherever we go
49:59 and present is that you have one or the other.
50:02 You have this extremely critical view of homosexuality
50:07 that it's disgusting
50:09 and we're not gonna talk about it,
50:10 we're not gonna address it, or we're just gonna judge it.
50:13 And then you have completely the other side of making it,
50:16 well, there's nothing wrong with it.
50:17 And, you know, Jesus loves and we're told in the Bible
50:20 that we're supposed to love everybody
50:22 and so, you know, we have this, these extreme on both sides.
50:26 And that's really what we see a lot.
50:29 I think about an example of
50:31 how can I especially in an environment where,
50:35 you know, even the pastor is gay-affirming
50:37 and there is a gentlemen that we met
50:38 that who was gay for over 20 years,
50:41 and living in a gay relationship,
50:43 and all of a sudden, he started having these dreams
50:46 that it was the end of time
50:48 and the Lord was telling him in his dreams,
50:49 "This is not what I have for you".
50:51 And it started moving him to the Bible again,
50:54 he started going to church in Southern California,
50:56 to probably the number one gay-affirming church there.
51:00 And as he's going to church there,
51:02 he's studying for himself and he called us up,
51:05 Coming Out Ministries, and we've talked with him
51:08 and we've said, "Come and check us out."
51:10 You know, he's actually come and seen the movie for himself,
51:14 was moved to tears, and realized that he had,
51:16 he said, at the end of, seen the movie twice,
51:19 he said, "I realize now that, that there are changes
51:21 that I need to make in my life."
51:23 So now he's back in Southern California,
51:25 teaching Sabbath school in this gay-affirming church
51:27 and he is walking with the Lord.
51:30 But he's not doing it in a way
51:32 that he's like shouting from the front that
51:34 this is an abomination and, you know,
51:36 leave this life, instead, he's leading by an example.
51:39 He's showing that the love of Jesus has a power,
51:42 you know, that changes people.
51:44 And I think that, that's powerful.
51:46 If you have a church that is gay-affirming,
51:49 I think that God needs you in that church
51:51 to show what the right is and to plead with the pastor
51:54 to study those, you know, passages in the Bible
51:57 and still if, if nothing has changed,
51:59 then God still needs you to walk the middle line
52:02 to not be hateful, to not be bigoted,
52:05 but to be loving in your approach.
52:07 And I think that people will see that,
52:09 you know, by your example.
52:11 I know of a story of a pastor that when AIDS first came out,
52:14 it was so reprehensible
52:15 that nobody wanted to touch the gays
52:17 but this pastor himself would take blankets
52:20 to the AIDS clinic
52:21 and he would help them to find jobs,
52:23 and he would bring them food, and all of a sudden,
52:25 these gays started coming into his churches.
52:28 And the people started getting up
52:29 and they said, "Pastor, the gays are coming."
52:32 And he said "Well, let them have a seat
52:33 with all the others sinners."
52:35 And that was a powerful example to me that,
52:38 even if you're in a situation that's gay-affirming,
52:41 you be the example, you get up,
52:43 you show what true love looks like to the LGBTQ community
52:48 and at the same time, hold the truth of God.
52:50 And, again, we really strongly believe that
52:53 that some of the gay-affirming issues are correct.
52:57 That we, as a church, have been incredibly unloving,
53:00 and judgmental,
53:02 and until the church really changes that around
53:04 and shows what the love of Christ looks like
53:06 in a redemptive and healing way,
53:08 then we really can make a difference
53:11 in the world today.
53:12 And that's what you guys do, isn't it?
53:14 You go to different churches and organizations
53:16 and kind of share
53:18 how to minister to the LGBT community,
53:22 just how they handle this,
53:25 the various situations
53:27 that are coming up in these questions,
53:28 because people have questions
53:30 and it is such a socially relevant topic
53:35 and so much has changed within the past several years
53:38 that it's just, it's really phenomenal.
53:41 Yvonne, when we were speaking in Pasadena
53:44 and we've talked about Pasadena before
53:46 and there was a gentleman who came very reluctantly
53:49 and was very defensive,
53:50 you know, to Wayne and I as we are presenting,
53:52 but he saw the movie here at the Q&A afterwards.
53:55 And the man came up to us afterwards,
53:57 he was sobbing, the guy was sobbing,
53:59 and he broke down and just told us
54:01 that he has been out of the church for ten years,
54:04 identified as gay, and he said, "Ten years ago,
54:07 I walked out of church knowing that there was no place for me,
54:09 that, that I didn't belong here and they made that very clear."
54:12 And he said, "But after watching your movie,"
54:14 he said, "I identified with absolutely every point
54:17 that each person has in the movie."
54:19 And he said, "I realize now
54:21 that I do have a place in the church.
54:23 I realize now I do belong."
54:25 And for him, this revelation
54:27 and these tears were the breakthrough
54:28 that he'd been looking for
54:30 which was especially affirming for all of us
54:32 because that's what we were looking for
54:34 when we came back into the church.
54:36 Amen.
54:37 Good, I just had that, in Coming Out Ministries,
54:40 we do travel around the churches,
54:42 around the world,
54:44 where we're traveling quite a bit internationally
54:46 and our testimonies do,
54:49 we find bring a lot of inspiration to the churches.
54:52 But we go much beyond that
54:54 because we feel it's important to enlighten,
54:57 not just inspire, but to enlighten, to educate.
55:00 Yes. Yes. And to equip.
55:01 And the Lord is using our ministry now,
55:04 to provide, produce and provide the very resources
55:09 that we wish we had when we were going through
55:11 our struggle in our youth.
55:12 So that is a major part of our ministry.
55:15 And then it's so important because we need tools,
55:18 people need tools, and it's not just,
55:20 one of the things I love about Coming Out Ministries is,
55:23 it's not just about the gay culture,
55:26 it's about sin, period.
55:30 People are so afraid to call sin, sin nowadays,
55:33 you know, if it's this, well, don't call it sin
55:36 'cause that's who I am.
55:38 No, sin is sin,
55:40 and but it doesn't mean
55:42 that we can't be redeemed from sin.
55:45 So, I just love what you all do,
55:48 and I'm so proud of the fact
55:50 that you've put yourselves out there
55:53 and you're just, you're really working in the venue,
55:56 in the frontlines really.
55:58 We have one more question.
55:59 Jay, you wanna ask it? Sure.
56:01 This can go out to anyone of you.
56:05 If a gay couple comes to the church
56:07 and brings their children,
56:09 what should be our response to them as a church family
56:11 and what about my children, Sabbath school?
56:14 And you have like 30 seconds there, so...
56:18 Well, you know,
56:20 Jesus, the presence of Jesus begins in the home
56:23 and what we teach is the love of Jesus,
56:25 right, in our churches.
56:26 So if somebody is coming through
56:28 our church doors, they might be hungry.
56:31 Let's hope that they are hungry.
56:33 And so we should be welcoming,
56:35 and we should be welcoming in to, to anyone,
56:37 any sinner that's walking through the church doors,
56:40 and so that the point is, is that, in welcoming them,
56:44 we need not let the discussion end there,
56:48 the education is that we would reach out to people,
56:52 and help them, listen to their stories,
56:54 find out about them, love their children,
56:57 love one another, care for them,
56:59 but don't withhold Jesus.
57:04 Thank you.
57:05 Do you have a closing thought, Jay?
57:07 Yeah, you know,
57:10 sometimes we really ought to take a look
57:12 in the mirror instead of looking at everyone else
57:16 and judging them for their sins.
57:19 You know, we have sins of our own,
57:22 and sin is sin,
57:23 but God can give us the victory over sin.
57:26 Christ came down and took on human flesh
57:29 and paid the price for our sins,
57:31 so that we don't have to.
57:33 Make the choice today, to serve Christ
57:36 before it's too late.
57:37 Thank you. Thank you for joining me here.
57:39 I'm glad to be here. It was great.
57:41 And thank you all so much, please continue,
57:45 continue with the fight, and the struggle,
57:47 I know it's hard.
57:48 I know that in several instances
57:50 you guys get cancelled, turned away, or whatever,
57:55 but if you have an organization, a school,
57:59 college, high school, academy, or church, whatever,
58:03 please welcome Coming Out Ministries.
58:06 And thank you for joining us.
58:08 Join us next time 'cause it just wouldn't be
58:09 the same without you.


Revised 2017-03-20