Participants: Yvonne Lewis (Host), Jason Bradley (Host), Wayne Blakely, Danielle Harrison, Ron Woolsey, Michael Carducci
Series Code: UBR
Program Code: UBR000221A
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00:01 The Dare to Dream network
00:02 recognizes the importance of sharing the tools 00:04 to overcome temptations in every arena. 00:07 The program you're about to view 00:09 contains sensitive content. 00:11 Parental discretion is advised. 00:16 Stay tuned to meet four brands 00:18 plucked from the fire of gay culture. 00:20 My name is Yvonne Lewis. 00:22 And I'm Jason Bradley, 00:23 and you are watching Urban Report. 00:50 Hello, and welcome to Urban Report. 00:52 Our guests today are Wayne Blakely, 00:55 Mike Carducci, Danielle Harrison, 00:57 and Ron Woolsey from Coming Out Ministries, 01:00 and I've got my co-host, Jason. 01:03 All right. Jason Bradley. 01:05 Yay! 01:06 And we are going to be talking to this 01:08 wonderful group of people from Coming Out Ministries. 01:12 Yay! 01:14 You know, it's weird that we're on this set 01:16 'cause we're not, 01:17 we don't usually do Urban Report 01:19 from the Today set 01:20 but because there were so many people, 01:23 we had to just make an adjustment here 01:25 and praise the Lord, we can do that, 01:26 so we hope that you enjoy this and... 01:31 We have some questions. 01:33 First of all, you guys are no stranger 01:36 to Dare to Dream, 01:37 because you have done two seasons on Pure Choices. 01:41 We've aired your Journey Interrupted movie 01:45 and we're gonna talk more about that in a bit, 01:48 and we've had you on Urban Report. 01:51 So you are no strangers to Dare to Dream. 01:54 But each time you do something else, we just, 01:57 we really wanna support you 01:58 because you're out on the frontlines 02:01 and we know it. 02:02 So tell us a bit, first of all, about Coming Out Ministries. 02:06 Wayne, what is Coming Out Ministries 02:08 and why is it important? 02:10 Why is your message important? 02:12 Well, you know, for many years, 02:14 in church environments, 02:15 we didn't talk about the issue of homosexuality, so, 02:19 so many of us grew up with same-sex attraction 02:22 with no tools, no real support. 02:25 We identified homosexuality in God's word as sin, 02:30 but we just didn't, 02:32 we didn't provide anybody with any hope. 02:34 So as a result of that, 02:36 many of the church doors flew open 02:38 to all the same-sex attracted people 02:41 that were running out and saying, 02:43 "You know, I hear that 02:44 there's a gay community out there. 02:46 They look like they care about me." 02:48 And so we lost our focus on Jesus 02:53 and the focus became on our fleshly desires and, 02:57 you know, everybody suffers from something 02:59 but because we weren't talking about this, 03:02 and this happens often with other things, 03:05 there are people that have been ostracized from the church 03:08 that have sexual sin, 03:10 that we kind of refuse to talk about. 03:12 And now the pendulum has swung the other direction. 03:15 But, you know, God didn't forget us, 03:18 and He knows everybody's heart, 03:21 and I think He saw that in each of our hearts 03:24 we would respond to Him, 03:25 and we're from totally different places 03:28 in the United States and, yeah, 03:29 God came and got us and then, 03:31 put us together by divine appointment, 03:35 helped us recognize that there was no voice 03:37 in church environment, 03:39 that there were many people out there 03:41 that are aching, that are hurting, 03:43 that desperately want to be loved, 03:45 and they want Jesus in their life as well, 03:47 but they don't know how to bring the two together. 03:49 And God revealed Himself to us 03:52 and we are very much standing on God's word 03:55 and want people to realize that they can take God at His word. 03:59 And so, Coming Out Ministries, 5.5 years ago, 04:05 developed and formed on I Peter 2:9 that says, 04:09 "He brought us out of darkness into His marvelous light." 04:12 Amen. 04:14 That's true. 04:15 You have anything to add, Mike? 04:16 No, that was pretty fantastic. 04:19 One other things that I think is really remarkable is like 04:21 Wayne was saying that, 04:22 not only do we come from all across the United States 04:25 but each one of us have such a diverse story 04:27 and, really, that really makes up 04:29 the whole picture of redemption through Christ. 04:34 And you featured that in Journey Interrupted 04:38 which is just an incredible film. 04:41 And I'd like to show the trailer from it 04:43 because I'd like for our viewers to see, 04:46 'cause they're gonna be watching, 04:48 you know, on Dare to Dream. 04:49 We are going to air it, we've aired it already 04:51 and we're going to continue to air it periodically, 04:54 and so I'd like for them to kind of get a sense of 04:57 what this film is about. 04:58 So let's see it now. 05:04 I would look in the mirror 05:06 and I would punch myself in the face, 05:07 and I would scream at God, 05:09 and I would yell at Him and I would say, 05:10 "Why, God, why? 05:13 Why did you create a boy 05:15 when I was supposed to be a girl?" 05:21 So I prayed and I said, "I don't wanna live, Lord. 05:25 Take me now." 05:26 I just don't wanna go through what's coming. 05:28 I felt dirty. 05:29 I felt... 05:30 Well, I have been tainted. 05:32 I thought, "Okay, well, obviously, 05:34 this is something that I can't really tell anyone about." 05:37 I'm crying in my bed at night 05:38 because these things are happening 05:40 and, Jesus, I can't hear Him anymore. 05:46 I said, "How dare You? 05:48 You say that I'm an abomination when You made me this way, 05:50 that's not fair. 05:52 I didn't choose this thing, I didn't want this thing." 05:54 Why would I join a religion that tells me that 05:56 I'm just gonna die for being who I am? 05:58 Is this a different God than I was acquainted with, 06:02 when I was little? 06:06 I finally decided to just accept who I was, 06:09 and give up. 06:11 I believed that I was gay 06:13 and that it didn't match up with God's word, 06:15 and I was like, "Oh, well, 06:17 I don't know what to do about that." 06:18 I just kind of pushed everybody aside, 06:21 including my mom, 06:22 I just felt like, "Nobody else has been there, 06:25 why would she?" 06:26 I was desperate to be secure in my sin. 06:28 I did whatever I could. 06:30 I was, I was... 06:31 Tell me lies, tell me lies. 06:34 Lie to me. 06:40 I found myself on my knees 06:43 at the end of my bed and I said, 06:46 "God, I don't know how you could forgive me." 06:49 You still want me, 06:50 'cause everybody else rejected me, 06:52 everybody else turned their back on me, 06:53 you wanna go too now? 06:55 It's as though the devil was not going to let me go. 07:00 And if he could not entice me, he would turn to violence. 07:04 It's time for us to talk about this. 07:06 It's time for us to offer help. 07:07 If He is who I've been reading that He is, 07:11 it all makes sense. 07:14 How like God, to show me that 07:16 when I really started opening up myself 07:19 and making myself the most vulnerable 07:21 I've ever been in my entire life, 07:22 that what I get instead was not rejection, 07:25 but acceptance. 07:27 I shed My blood for you, 07:30 so that you can claim this victory. 07:34 It's freely yours. 07:35 All you have to do is give your heart to Me. 07:44 Wow! 07:46 What a great piece of work! 07:48 We have really enjoyed showing it on Dare to Dream, 07:51 and as I said before, we're going to continue to, 07:54 because your stories are so powerful. 07:57 And we know that you've been going around 08:00 to different places and people have questions, 08:03 and so we want to ask some of those questions today, 08:09 that you can help our viewers with 08:11 because we know that there are people all around 08:13 who want to know these things. 08:16 So, Jay, you wanna start? 08:17 Why not? Okay. 08:19 I'll start with the first one. 08:20 Ron, this is for you. 08:22 There are a lot of messages 08:23 that are being circulated in church culture today, 08:26 regarding the LGBT issue, 08:29 what is the message of Coming Out Ministries? 08:32 So much of what is taught and what is heard today 08:37 comes from a worldly perspective, 08:39 from political correctness, 08:41 from conventional thinking, from human reasoning, 08:44 but the foundation of our message is really found 08:47 in the word of God. 08:49 I John 4:8 tells us that God is love 08:52 and then we read in the II Timothy 3, 08:56 that all scripture is given by inspiration of God, 08:59 this God of love, it is profitable for doctrine, 09:02 for reproof, for correction, for instruction, 09:05 in righteousness, 09:07 that the Man of God may be perfect, 09:08 truly furnished unto all good works. 09:11 So we believe that if God is love, 09:15 then everything that He admonishes us, 09:19 His warnings, His reproof, 09:21 His promises, His counsels, 09:23 His judgments, 09:24 everything comes from the heart of a loving heavenly Father. 09:28 And so we approach this issue from the word of God 09:34 and we accept what He says about the LGBT issue, 09:38 the gay issue, 09:40 and our lives need to measure up to His expectations. 09:45 The word of God to us is like an owner's manual. 09:48 And we believe that our Creator knows 09:52 what's best for His created 09:54 and our heavenly Father knows what's best for the children 09:57 that He loves so much and so that is our perspective. 10:00 Nice. 10:02 Yeah, I have heard the Bible described as 10:03 "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth." 10:06 An acronym, right? 10:08 Yeah, absolutely. 10:09 Nice, nice. 10:11 Wayne, if God is love, 10:13 why would He be opposed to two people 10:15 loving each other exclusively, 10:18 in monogamous gay relationship? 10:22 Why would He be opposed to that? 10:25 Well, we have a little bit of a misperception about love. 10:32 I think when we look to God's pure love, 10:34 sometimes we don't study it, 10:38 to pick up the full meaning of that love. 10:42 What happens is that we get so focused on ourselves, 10:45 we begin to interpret our desires to be loved, 10:50 and so we don't have a perfect reflection of 10:53 what God's love really is. 10:55 I have... 10:56 For me, personally, I have to look to God's word 10:59 to see what brings honor and glory to Him. 11:02 And as I studied through God's word 11:04 in both the Old Testament and the New Testament, 11:08 He upholds marriage as being that between a man and a woman, 11:13 and there's not a single occurrence 11:17 of same-sex intimacy in God's word 11:20 that He would show that He ordains and sanctifies. 11:24 That's a big clue to me to know that 11:27 whether I'm on the right track 11:28 or whether maybe I need to put my focus 11:32 back on the word and see 11:34 what I can learn from God's word. 11:35 If we don't understand the plan of salvation, 11:39 if we don't understand what happened in heaven, 11:42 what the great controversy is, 11:44 that's when our vision starts getting distorted. 11:49 And so looking to Jesus, 11:51 we started looking at self and what my desires are and, 11:54 you know, as I shared, you know, 11:55 even in the film, 11:57 was that there weren't people helping us along the way. 12:00 We weren't studying, we weren't sitting down 12:03 and finding out 12:05 what is God really asking of me. 12:07 And even in the New Testament, 12:08 we see that God is calling us to self-denial. 12:11 Why would we deny something of ourselves 12:14 that is good for us? 12:16 You know, we wouldn't. 12:17 So I have to look and see what God is calling me to 12:20 and outside of the perfect plan of marriage 12:25 between one man and one woman, 12:28 God doesn't give me permission to go 12:30 and to do as my flesh desires. 12:33 So I need to fall in love with Jesus first, 12:37 before I would recognize that 12:39 I would give something up for Him. 12:42 And so it's hard, you know, 12:44 to anyone who's watching or listening to this, 12:49 it's hard to give up something that comes so natural to you, 12:53 but what is natural? 12:55 What's natural to us is actually sin. 12:58 And we've come to a point in life today 13:01 that we're listening to the voices of the world, 13:03 the language of others, 13:04 campaigns out there that says, "Follow your heart. 13:08 Listen to yours, you know, 13:09 what your soul is saying to you." 13:11 But what I found that I needed to listen to, 13:14 was what God is saying to me. 13:16 And so, marriage by definition, it isn't the same-sex union, 13:21 and I don't see that anywhere in God's word 13:24 that He does show approval for this 13:26 and so it really isn't representative of God's pure 13:30 or ultimate love for us. 13:33 That's a great answer. 13:34 Yeah, it is. 13:36 That's a great answer. 13:38 I was gonna say something, 13:39 but I had a minor case of amnesia. 13:44 So we'll get back to the questions. 13:46 You're so young. 13:49 All right, Danielle, this is for you. 13:51 How can I, as a Christian, 13:53 minister to someone who identifies as LGBTQ? 13:57 It's a great question that we actually get a lot, 13:59 almost everywhere that we go, 14:01 and the beautiful thing I think is that 14:03 we would minister to them 14:04 just like we would minister to anyone else, you know. 14:07 Christ is very effective in reaching the people 14:10 in the way that He spent time with them, 14:13 you know, He showed His sympathy, 14:15 He showed them by His actions that He cared for them 14:18 and it was through that action that 14:20 He showed that He could be trusted 14:23 and that He had their best interest in mind. 14:26 And it was through building that kind of a confidence 14:29 between Him and the people He was trying to reach, 14:32 that He was able, eventually, to invite them to follow Him. 14:36 And I think that that's what we have to remember 14:38 that we have to do. 14:39 No one is gonna be interested in understanding 14:43 our ideas of life, and philosophy, and morals, 14:47 if they don't really believe that 14:49 we have their best interests in mind. 14:51 And so the best thing that we can do is 14:53 just to step forward 14:55 and to build a friendship with them. 14:57 Build that kind of trust with them. 14:58 And so often with any person 15:00 who lives differently than we do, 15:03 it's easy for us to focus on the differences 15:05 that we have from them and feel that the walls go up 15:09 because of those differences 15:10 and our focus on the differences. 15:12 But if we focus on the commonalities that we have, 15:15 we can find that those are the bridges 15:17 into the person's heart 15:19 and we can connect through those simple things, 15:21 and then just build like I said, 15:24 that confidence and that friendship. 15:26 And it's through the friendship that, 15:27 eventually, they'll see something 15:29 different in our lives. 15:31 They'll see something that they want to have, 15:33 the joy, and the peace, 15:35 and the gentleness, and the meekness, 15:36 the fruits of the Spirit, 15:38 and it will be those things that will draw them 15:40 into having a desire to know more about 15:42 what's working for us. 15:44 At least, that's what happened for me 15:46 and what drew me into having a desire 15:48 to learn more about Christ from my Christian friends 15:51 and so I think that that's what we have to do with anyone 15:55 and especially with people 15:56 who are struggling with same-sex attraction, 15:58 gender confusion. 16:00 And all along the way, of course, 16:01 we can't move one step forward without prayer. 16:05 And that is something that each one of us acknowledge 16:08 in our own personal experiences was that, 16:10 it was the prayers of the people 16:12 that we loved, 16:14 that really allowed angels to come into our lives, 16:16 allowed the Holy Spirit to come into our lives 16:18 when we needed it the most. 16:20 And sometimes we look at prayer as our last result, 16:24 but really it's our first defense. 16:26 We need to be consistently 16:27 and intentionally praying for the people 16:29 that we want to minister to 16:31 and that's the only way that we're gonna be effective. 16:33 Absolutely. 16:35 It came back to me. 16:36 Okay, so... 16:39 What I was gonna say was, when you were talking, Wayne, 16:43 you know, we search for all the answers 16:45 in all the wrong places when really 16:47 the right answers are contained in the word of God, you know, 16:51 that's the book of life 16:52 and what the world has for us is death, 16:54 you know, so we search the world 16:58 and all these different perspectives 17:00 to fill a void that only Christ can fill. 17:03 And what you were saying, Danielle, 17:05 is excellent because without 17:08 kind of cultivating a relationship, 17:10 without getting to know people, 17:13 like you don't just introduce them to, 17:15 okay, no, you can't eat pork. 17:17 No, you can't do this. 17:19 No, you can't do... 17:20 Why? 17:21 You know, you have to know about Christ 17:24 and what's that He wants. 17:26 What He wants for you is the best. 17:29 He wants to prolong your life. 17:30 He wants you to be saved. 17:32 He wants to save you. 17:33 I like to elaborate just a little bit in that, 17:37 you know, doesn't... 17:39 Is God trustworthy? 17:41 You know, that's the first thing 17:42 that has to come to any of our mind. 17:43 Can I trust God? 17:45 Because if I don't develop that, 17:47 then I'm not going to want to abide by His Word. 17:50 I have to go back to the beginning 17:52 and ask myself, was the forbidden... 17:55 Was the fruit on the forbidden tree, 17:57 was it delicious? 17:58 Was it good? 17:59 Why did God not want Adam and Eve to partake of it? 18:03 You know, and really what it boils down to is His Word 18:07 because He asked them not to. 18:09 And so something may feel good, it may seem right to us, 18:13 but God knows better 18:16 and He's trying to protect us, you know, 18:18 His law is law, 18:19 and that's the part about the friendship evangelism, 18:23 by introducing someone to Jesus, 18:26 and helping them see that they can trust Him, 18:30 and fall in love with Him, 18:31 then His principles become 18:33 something that I can practically apply to my life. 18:36 Absolutely. 18:37 That's where you start. 18:39 You start by, you know, 18:41 connecting with people and you introduce them to Jesus 18:45 because everything else after that, 18:47 if you go out of sequence, it doesn't make any sense. 18:52 You just, you know, 18:54 you'll fall in a legalistic path 18:55 or whatever but if you 18:57 go down that path of 18:58 introducing them to Jesus first, 19:01 you know, that means that everything else 19:04 then just falls sequentially into place, 19:06 so that's really the key. 19:08 That's why it's important to live Christianity 19:11 and not just really profess it. 19:13 You know, you can say things all day 19:16 but someone needs a coat, you have a coat. 19:19 I mean, you have an extra coat 19:21 or you have a coat that they need 19:23 and you don't give it to them. 19:24 You'll be like, "Oh, I'll pray for you." 19:26 You're right. 19:27 I'll pray for you, 19:28 but you're not meeting their need at that time, you know. 19:32 Michael, how do you respond to people 19:35 who quote the text that says, 19:37 text that appeared to be definitive about homosexuality? 19:41 How do you deal with people with that? 19:44 You know, I try to use my own experience, you know, 19:47 with that question. 19:48 And, Jason, I believe that 19:50 you didn't forget the statement you want to make. 19:52 I believe that the Lord just held it back a little 19:54 because you talked about how making the base 19:57 just the word of God. 19:58 I remember when I was baptized and told my boyfriend, 20:01 "Now, here I am, you know, an Adventist", 20:03 and he dragged me to the Unitarian church, 20:06 to the gay church, 20:08 and we sat there with the priest in the gay church 20:10 and she went through all of the different texts 20:12 about homosexuality in the Bible. 20:14 And as desperate as I was to hold on to my boyfriend 20:18 and my identity, 20:19 even the Holy Spirit was giving me this understanding 20:24 and every scripture text that she was using, 20:27 it didn't even make sense from my perspective, 20:30 and I wasn't a Bible, you know, scholar and here she was, 20:33 and I remember thinking to myself, 20:35 "Well, that's a silly explanation." 20:36 You know, it's interesting people talk about, you know, 20:39 show me a scripture text that talks about, you know, 20:41 same-sex monogamy. 20:43 Well, there is one in Leviticus 20:44 and it says when a man lies with a man, 20:47 a monogamous relationship, 20:49 that it's an abomination, you know. 20:51 And so there we have a very literal example of that, 20:54 and then, of course, you can go to Romans chapter 1 20:57 where it talks about serving 21:00 the creature rather than the Creator. 21:03 And then in Jude, it talks about the sin of Sodom 21:06 and Gomorrah wasn't hospitality, 21:08 it was lust and lust wasn't restricted to just same-sex, 21:12 behavior was also lust in general, 21:14 and then, you know, 21:16 when I think about those applications for me, 21:19 as I really started to study the word of God for myself, 21:22 I realized that God wasn't condemning the person 21:25 that had same-sex attraction, 21:26 He was condemning the behavior, 21:29 which for me was a whole breakthrough, 21:31 it's like, thank you, God, 21:32 that I'm not guilty just because I have these thoughts 21:35 because I believe that God knows there's a reason 21:37 why you have those thoughts. 21:39 But as long as you're not acting in that behavior 21:41 because those behaviors separate You from me, 21:44 they cut you off from the things 21:46 that God wants to bless us with, 21:48 and so I started to realize that there are reasons 21:51 for why I had those attractions. 21:53 But that God says, "By not acting in them, 21:56 I can address them and I can bring you into healing." 21:59 And that was powerful for me, personally. 22:01 Feel like I'm so glad you brought this out 22:03 because it's the act that's the abomination, 22:06 not the person. 22:08 Yes. 22:09 And I think so often we can get caught up, you know, 22:13 as a church and saying, you know, 22:16 well, this is an abomination, you're an abomination. 22:18 No, you, the one who's in, who's caught up in that, 22:23 you're not the abomination, the act is, and that's the key. 22:28 God loves you. 22:29 He loves you just as you are. He loves you. 22:32 He's not gonna keep you as you are. 22:34 You're not gonna stay as you are once you turn to God 22:37 but He loves you right where you are 22:39 and I think that's what people need to know. 22:41 Yeah. 22:42 So the other part about, 22:43 if we accept the word of God as the manual, 22:47 as you said, Jason, then what's happening now is 22:50 we have this gay affirming group in Christianity, 22:52 even in our own denomination that are saying 22:55 that the words of Moses and Paul are, 22:58 they don't apply anymore. 22:59 Archaic. 23:00 Yeah, that they're archaic 23:02 and so we should just take them out of the Bible. 23:03 So, you know, 23:04 even when you look at I Corinthians chapter 6, 23:07 that to all of us was extremely powerful 23:10 because it says in verse 11, it says, 23:12 "Such were some of you, " 23:14 and it wasn't talking about just the homosexual, 23:16 which it does mention, 23:17 it was talking about adulterers, 23:20 or fornicators, gossip, you know, 23:22 so all of those things in verse 11 is really wrapped up 23:26 the promise that, 23:27 "Hey, I can give you something beyond 23:29 what you've experienced now." 23:31 And for us, especially, for us, 23:34 we find that that's a great promise that 23:36 we'd never heard before even in Christian culture. 23:40 I'm glad that you said that because, you know, 23:42 we have a tendency to put different sins on pedestals. 23:45 Okay, come on. 23:48 Homosexual sin and heterosexual sin is what? 23:51 Sin. You're right. 23:53 I call it what it is, you know. 23:55 If you're a heterosexual and you sin, 23:57 you're gonna end up in the same, you know, 24:00 it can get pretty hot, you know. 24:02 Right. 24:03 And if you are a homosexual and you sin, 24:06 it can get pretty hot. 24:08 You know, a sin is sin. 24:10 There is a story in the Bible. 24:12 There was a lady, and I forgot who it was, 24:17 but she was been judged by a bunch of men. 24:20 She was an adulterer. 24:23 And she was being judged by a bunch of men, 24:24 and they were ready to stone her, 24:26 and I don't know what it was about those times 24:30 but people were so just, they would, 24:31 just seem to be ready to stone people some times. 24:34 So, they were prepared to stone this lady and Jesus said, 24:39 "He who's without sin, let him cast the first stone," 24:42 and He started writing out in the sand people's sin. 24:45 Well, you can imagine the crowd dispersed 24:47 very, very, very fast. 24:50 You know, people look and judge, 24:55 but sin is sin. 24:57 Sin is sin. 24:59 And the great thing about Jesus is 25:03 He'll take you wherever you are 25:06 and He'll heal those broken spots. 25:10 Amen. 25:11 He'll just heal all of your brokenness 25:13 and that's what we all need. 25:15 We all need it 'cause we all have sin. 25:18 Yeah, there's this cop out today though, 25:21 in Church congregations, you know, 25:25 the way they wanna look at homosexuality, 25:27 because it's kind of like on the cutting edge these days, 25:31 is that while we're all sinners, 25:32 you know, yeah, 25:34 we all are and so we should be helping each other. 25:36 James 5:16 says, "Hey, let's come together. 25:39 Let's pray for one another. 25:40 Let's pray for the healing that God promises. 25:43 We should be able to come together 25:44 and lift each other up in prayer. 25:46 Not leave ourselves the way we are 25:49 but to let Jesus bring about change 25:51 in every single one of our lives." 25:52 Yeah, Christ didn't alienate people. 25:54 That's right. 25:55 Yeah, He didn't alienate people. 25:57 Okay. 25:58 So, we have another question for you, Danielle. 26:00 Okay. 26:01 If my child confides in me that they are gay 26:04 or struggles with same-sex attraction, 26:06 how should I respond? 26:08 Well, this is a very important question 26:11 and the fact that I think we try to help 26:14 encourage parents everywhere that we go, 26:17 to open the doors for conversations 26:19 with their young people, with their children, you know. 26:22 Often we want to drive people to see their, 26:27 what they're doing is wrong by using shame. 26:29 And not just for us as parents, but often in the church 26:34 or whatever situation we are, 26:35 we want to try and show people what they're doing is wrong. 26:38 But a lot of the times when we use shame to try 26:42 and correct someone, 26:44 it doesn't really, it doesn't bring them to the solution. 26:47 It doesn't bring them through the situation 26:49 and so I would just encourage a parent 26:52 that has a child coming to them and opening up to them, 26:55 that this is a wonderful thing, 26:57 a wonderful thing that your child feels a level of comfort 27:01 and confidence in you that they can come to you 27:04 and talk to you about this 27:05 because so many young people feel 27:06 that they could never talk to their parents 27:08 about struggling with sexual sin. 27:11 I've met with a number of young girls in our academies 27:16 and situations like that 27:17 where they're struggling with pornography 27:18 or masturbation and I've asked them if they have, 27:22 you know, had, 27:24 if they've walked forward and talked to their parents 27:26 to have some kind of accountability 27:28 but they're too afraid to do that. 27:30 They don't feel like they can have those conversations. 27:32 So the first thing I would do is encourage this parent that 27:36 that is good, you need to keep those channels of communication 27:39 open with your child and so shaming them 27:41 for coming to you is the last thing 27:42 that you should do. 27:44 But encourage them into a true understanding 27:48 about what the Bible really says, 27:49 I mean, when I was young, 27:51 like Wayne says the church tells us 27:53 that homosexuality is sin 27:55 but that's the end of the conversation. 27:57 I knew that the Bible condemned homosexuality 28:00 but I never really understood God's reasoning through that. 28:04 And when I sat down with the young girl 28:05 who was struggling with homosexuality 28:08 and I just said, 28:09 "Let's look at some of these verses, 28:11 let's reason through this." 28:12 God says, "Come and let us reason together." 28:14 Let's talk about what this really says 28:16 and come to understand 28:17 why God would say this isn't good for us. 28:19 And that made a profound impact on 28:22 not only how she saw homosexuality 28:26 but the choices that she was ready 28:28 and willing to make in her own experience. 28:30 And so, I think sitting down and reasoning through things 28:33 with young people, especially our children, 28:36 is most advantageous. 28:38 And then just giving them the courage 28:40 and the hope that Jesus can help us with this. 28:43 The world wants to tell us that we're born this way, 28:45 we can't change, there's no hope. 28:47 But that's simply not true. 28:49 And we have to believe that ourselves 28:50 if we can teach that to our children, right? 28:52 And we are here to tell you that it is possible. 28:56 And so that's the message that 28:58 our young people need to be hearing, 29:00 that victory is possible in Christ. 29:02 He can give us the victory. Amen. 29:04 So creating a comfortable environment for the child to be 29:07 vulnerable and taking them to the word of God, 29:09 claiming the promises and moving forward. 29:12 Amen. Okay. 29:13 That's great. Excellent. 29:15 Yeah. For sure. 29:16 Ron, I've heard about different people 29:20 who have kids that are gay 29:22 and their kids are gonna get married, 29:25 not to each other but, you know, 29:27 they're gonna have a wedding. 29:30 Should a parent attend their gay son 29:33 or daughter's wedding and how do you deal with that? 29:36 And this is becoming quite a dilemma 29:38 even within the church, 29:39 especially, since the Supreme Court 29:44 passed down a ruling, 29:45 normalizing gay marriage in all 50 states. 29:49 And as we go from church to church, 29:51 we find that churches are very confused about this issue, 29:55 we've even heard people in the church say, 29:57 "Well, now that 29:58 the Supreme Court has made a ruling, 29:59 you know, it's up to us to abide 30:01 by the laws of the land." 30:03 And we tend to forget God's law trumps man's law. 30:07 That's right. 30:08 Because if we don't allow God's law to be supreme, 30:11 then there's some other laws 30:13 that are going to be coming down, 30:15 that are going to be involved 30:18 in the final tests for God's people. 30:20 But, you know, this question, 30:22 it's a very delicate issue, a very sensitive issue. 30:29 We don't want to be dogmatic 30:31 because we know that parents are really caught up 30:35 with their love for their children, 30:37 and they don't want to hurt them, 30:38 and they want to show unconditional love. 30:42 But we do have a position that we take 30:44 and we hope that people will benefit from our observation 30:49 and perspective and that is, 30:51 that in the Garden of Eden in the very beginning, 30:54 there were two institutions created. 30:57 There were twin institutions. Marriage was one. 31:00 And both of these institutions are sacred. 31:03 And as Christians, we need to respect that marriage is 31:08 and was designed to be a sacred union 31:11 between a man and a woman. 31:13 And if we go to a gay wedding, 31:18 we will be giving the impression, 31:20 whether we condone it or not, 31:22 we will be giving the impression 31:25 that we condone this union, 31:27 that we are adding our blessing to it. 31:30 And you talk about the counterfeit, 31:32 well, this is certainly a counterfeit of God's design 31:35 and we don't want to give credence to the counterfeit 31:39 of what God has designed. 31:41 So, I have counseled a number of people 31:44 that have been caught up in these types of situations 31:46 and they're, you know, 31:49 very confused and very concerned. 31:52 And so, you know, we advise people, 31:55 show unconditional love, of course, 31:58 for your son, or daughter, or friend, 32:00 but you don't have to go to a gay wedding to do that. 32:04 Make sure you're involved in their lives in other ways. 32:07 We had a couple in Arkansas 32:10 that had this very issue come up 32:13 and they are gay, 32:14 one of their twin sons was gay 32:17 and he was getting married in California. 32:20 They flew out a week before the wedding. 32:22 They spent time with their son and with his partner, 32:25 a lot of quality time, doing a lot of things 32:28 that they could do outside of a sacred setting 32:31 or what should be a sacred setting. 32:33 They did not go to the wedding. 32:35 They did not go to the reception. 32:36 They stayed a week afterwards 32:39 and spent more time with the son and so forth. 32:42 And they came home with great peace 32:44 because they felt, and they told me, 32:48 "Our son cannot say we were too cheap 32:50 to make the trip 32:51 or that we didn't love him enough to be there, 32:54 because we went far above and beyond 32:57 what he was expecting." 32:59 And then you have also, in conjunction with that, 33:02 what about the yearly anniversary? 33:05 We know of some churches 33:06 that actually celebrate gay anniversaries 33:10 in the church bulletin. 33:11 And that's, you know, that's rather shocking. 33:15 But there are ways that we can show our love 33:18 for these people on a continued basis 33:20 without drawing attention to the anniversary. 33:23 We can send them 33:24 "Thinking of you" cards throughout the year. 33:27 Don't wait for one of these occasions to make contact. 33:31 Be in communication 33:33 and have an ongoing relationship 33:35 throughout the year. 33:37 And there are so many ways in which you can be involved 33:39 in the lives of these dear family members 33:43 and friends in a secular setting, 33:46 outside of what should be a sacred institution. 33:52 That's a great answer. 33:53 And the other institution, at creation, 33:56 there were two, marriage and the Sabbath. 33:59 Right. And that would be the Sabbath. 34:00 And see, I, just to follow up this little bit more on that, 34:05 we are being tested, I believe today. 34:09 How are we going to stand for one of God's commandments? 34:13 And not only is the devil testing to see 34:16 if he can get away with legislating 34:19 a redefinition of marriage on a global basis, 34:23 but eventually, he's going to try legislating 34:27 a redefinition of the fourth commandment, Sabbath. 34:30 And we need to realize that he's testing us 34:33 on a very sacred institution here, 34:36 in preparation for his final assault 34:40 on the fourth commandment having to do with worship. 34:43 And so we need to really think carefully 34:47 about these issues. 34:49 Good. 34:51 Mike, okay, is there a Biblical conclusion 34:55 as to whether one is born gay? 34:59 I like the way you phrase that, 35:01 the conclusion on your beginning, right? 35:04 So when I came to Christ, again, I wanted to know why. 35:08 From my earliest thoughts, you know, 35:09 I bought into the whole idea that I was born this way. 35:12 I don't remember a time 35:13 when I wasn't odd or different from the other boys in school. 35:17 So as God was generous to show me 35:20 that there were reasons or things that had happened, 35:23 I looked at even Exodus 20:8, 35:25 talking about the sins of the generations 35:27 that have followed to three and four generations. 35:30 And I could see even in my parents' history, 35:34 through the generations that there was sexual sin. 35:36 And while I wasn't born gay, what had happened is 35:39 I got derailed by the rejection of my father, 35:42 the gender confusion which followed me 35:44 until I was 20 years old, 35:45 identifying with my mother instead of my dad, 35:47 so that helped me to realize 35:50 that we were all born in inequity, 35:52 we were all shaped in inequity and born into sin. 35:55 And that helps me to understand that 35:57 that was the beginning. 35:58 But the beautiful thing 36:00 and I have to go back to the movie 36:01 and quote something that Ron said. 36:03 He said, "Jesus does have an answer to that, 36:05 and that we all must be born again." 36:07 And I'd like to use, you know, the scripture verse, 36:10 II Corinthians 5:17. 36:12 It says, "If any man be in Christ, 36:13 he is a new creature. 36:15 Old things are passed away, 36:17 behold, all things are become new." 36:19 And so that's why we're not gay Christians, we're, 36:23 you know, we don't identify ourselves 36:25 with even the sin temptation 36:27 because Jesus was tempted like all of us 36:29 and yet without sin. 36:31 And so because I still may struggle with those thoughts 36:33 inside my head, 36:34 I'm not engaging in that behavior 36:36 because my identity now is not in my struggle, 36:39 my identity now is in Christ. 36:42 And there's a beautiful quote I'd like to share. 36:44 It says, "Through the power of Christ, 36:46 men and women have broken the chains of sinful habit." 36:50 That doesn't mean that the struggle goes away 36:52 but the habit, God gives us the victory over. 36:55 "They've renounced selfishness. 36:57 The profane had become reverent, 36:59 the drunken sober, and the profligate pure. 37:03 Souls that have borne the likeness of Satan 37:05 have become transformed into the image of God. 37:08 This change is, in itself, the miracle of miracles. 37:12 A change wrought by the Word, 37:14 it is one of the deepest mysteries of the Word. 37:16 We cannot understand it, we can only believe, 37:19 as declared by the Scriptures, 37:21 it is 'Christ in you, the hope of glory.'" 37:24 And one of the scripture texts 37:25 that I use a lot in my own presentations 37:28 is Philippians 2:5, 37:29 and simply says allowing the mind of Christ to come in. 37:33 And so what was really earth-shattering for me 37:36 is that, Jesus wasn't saying, "Stop being gay," 37:39 because He knew that that was the struggle 37:42 that I created and that I'd cultivated. 37:44 He was saying, "Just stop resisting me." 37:46 Because He knew I couldn't stop being gay. 37:48 So as I, you know, yearned more for Christ, 37:52 as He was more faithful to me, 37:54 I started to realize that by claiming the mind of Christ 37:57 that I found there was victory on the other side of that. 38:00 It didn't take away the struggle, 38:01 it didn't mean that all of sudden, 38:03 it was gone "Poof!" 38:04 you know, like a magic wand 38:06 but instead what it was, was this, 38:08 this combination of working with Christ. 38:10 As I stopped resisting him, 38:12 I found that there was power and victory over the things 38:14 that had become master of my life. 38:16 Amen. So you're a co-laborer with Christ? 38:18 Hallelujah. I love it. 38:20 So, Wayne, how do you identify yourself today? 38:24 Are you an ex-gay? 38:25 Are you... 38:27 Like, where are you in this whole thing? 38:29 You know, that was a question that I had after my conversion 38:34 and I was at a, my first speaking engagement. 38:37 And I said to the person who helped me find Christ. 38:41 I said, "Oh, who am I today?" 38:44 And she said, "Oh, you're still a gay." 38:46 And I said, "No, I don't think so. 38:49 I couldn't possibly be 38:50 because what did I just give up? 38:52 If I just went through this process of conversion, 38:55 and repentance, 38:57 and giving my life over to Christ, 38:58 I'm not the same person who I used to be." 39:01 And it became a real focus of my study. 39:04 And as Mike alluded to, as we're talking about, here, 39:08 about what your true identity is, 39:09 II Corinthians 5:17 is very clear that 39:13 when I give myself over to Jesus Christ, 39:15 I become a new creation. 39:17 Let's say that you find that, that in your life, 39:20 you've participated in being a glutton, 39:23 and you're convicted by a health message, 39:27 and you began to eat right, 39:30 and you shed all kinds of pounds, 39:32 and pretty soon, you know, 39:33 you find that you're a fit person, 39:36 do you now identify as a fat Christian? 39:40 You know, or a non practicing fat Christian? 39:44 You know, it doesn't make sense. 39:46 So, all right, so, and some were like, 39:48 "Oh, well, that's not, 39:49 you know, that's not quite enough. 39:50 I don't know, you know, 39:52 I still think you're still a gay." 39:53 "Okay, so let's go to Paul who was on the way to Damascus, 39:57 and God said, 'Stop, 39:59 stop being in the support of killing of Christians 40:02 and become a Christian.' 40:03 And he agrees and he goes forward, 40:05 but the ministry that God gave him, 40:07 does he identify 40:09 as a Christian-killing Christian?" 40:11 You know, he doesn't. It doesn't make any sense. 40:13 So we throw out all of these analogies today, 40:16 of which any one thinks 40:18 it's absolutely ridiculous to identify 40:20 except for when we get to gay, 40:23 there are so many people 40:26 in and outside of Christianity today, 40:28 who still wanna say, "You're a gay, no matter what," 40:31 which kind of brings us back to the great thing 40:35 that Bill Wilson did for alcoholics 40:37 in helping them find sobriety. 40:40 But he did something that the Bible doesn't do. 40:43 And he hung an albatross around their neck saying that, 40:46 "Every time you come into a meeting, 40:48 you still identify as an alcoholic, 40:50 even if you haven't drank for 40 years." 40:53 But if you come to the foot of the cross of Jesus Christ, 40:57 does He say, "My dear alcoholic," 41:01 or does He say to you, 41:03 "My dear child, my new believer in Christ, 41:06 my new creation in Jesus today." 41:11 You have something in Jesus that the world can't give you. 41:15 And so your focus... 41:16 Our focus today is not in that the fact 41:20 that I'm still maybe tempted today 41:22 and I have to identify by those temptations. 41:25 But what am I doing with the temptation? 41:28 Am I surrendering to Jesus Christ? 41:30 Or am I walking forward 41:32 as a new creature in Jesus Christ? 41:34 A good response to that, 41:35 when somebody says that you're still a gay, 41:38 you'll be like, "Oh, so you believe that 41:39 God can't give you the victory, huh?" 41:42 Exactly. You're making God in a box. 41:44 Yeah, absolutely. 41:47 Danielle, if someone is struggling 41:49 with same-sex attraction, 41:50 how can they get control over their thoughts? 41:53 Well, I think that's the perfect place 41:55 to start really is with the thoughts 41:57 because our thoughts drive our actions, 42:00 and our actions form our habits, 42:02 and that's really 42:04 where the battle begins for all of us, 42:07 it's with our thoughts. 42:08 And so I think that's the place that all of us need to begin 42:11 if we want to establish ourselves in victory 42:14 and to have a new set of habits and a new character in life. 42:20 I think the most important thing for us to do 42:23 when it comes to our thoughts is to recognize that 42:25 if there's any thought that enters into our mind 42:27 that's not in harmony with the expressed will of God, 42:30 we can be sure that that thought was encouraged 42:33 or cultivated from the enemy of souls, right? 42:36 If it didn't come from the Lord, 42:38 then it must have been encouraged 42:39 from some other source. 42:41 And so at that point, 42:44 we can recognize that this is coming from the enemy 42:48 and therefore, we don't have to accept it 42:50 as our own thought. 42:52 A lot of the times, the enemy will step in 42:54 and he will present ideas or temptations to us 42:58 in first person so that we think 43:00 that we're thinking in this direction. 43:01 We think that this is who we are 43:03 because it keeps coming into our minds, 43:06 but when we acknowledge the fact 43:07 that we don't have to own this thought as our own, 43:10 we can say, "No, this is not from God, this is not mine. 43:14 This is from the enemy. 43:15 And I'm going to reject this thought. 43:17 And I'm not gonna allow my thoughts to travel 43:21 across in these directions anymore. 43:23 Instead, I'm gonna turn away from that thought 43:26 and I'm gonna place my attention, 43:29 my mental attention, and focus 43:30 on what God says about this thing." 43:34 You know, if the enemy is trying to tell me 43:38 that I'm gay and that I have to give into these temptations 43:41 or that this is just who I am, 43:43 I can put my mind back on these promises 43:45 that my brothers have been sharing with us 43:47 or my favorite is Philippians 1:6, 43:50 that says, "I can be confident in the very fact 43:53 that if God has began a work in me, 43:55 He will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ, 43:58 until the character of His Son is formed within my heart 44:01 and until Christ comes to receive me." 44:03 And so that's where I can place my focus, 44:06 that's where I can place my trust. 44:08 And so we have to practice the art, 44:11 it really does require attention and focus. 44:15 We have to become mindful of where our thoughts are running. 44:17 And we have to turn away from those temptations, 44:20 turn away from the lies, 44:22 and focus our mind on the truths of God. 44:25 And the more that we do that, the more we become like Christ 44:29 because as we behold, we become changed, right? 44:32 So instead of just allowing my thoughts to continue 44:34 in the negative direction, 44:36 I can place my mind on Christ and in doing that, 44:40 God will work in my character 44:41 and it will become more natural for me 44:43 to turn to Him just like the flower turns 44:45 towards the sun. 44:46 You are preaching. You better go, girl. 44:50 Preaching. Amen. 44:51 I love it. I love it. 44:53 Yeah, it's so important that we yield the will. 44:58 The will is a very powerful thing. 45:01 We can either kind of be reactive or proactive. 45:06 And if we are proactive 45:08 and develop spiritual disciplines, 45:10 you know, and know that, 45:13 "Okay, I have got to talk to the Lord. 45:15 I have got to because if I don't, 45:17 I will sink." 45:19 It's like the guest on another program 45:22 that we did said, 45:24 "It's just like air, 45:25 if you're drowning, you need air. 45:28 If you're drowning in temptation, 45:31 you have to have Jesus. 45:33 Otherwise you're just gonna sink." 45:35 And it really makes sense. 45:38 We have to give our will to Him. 45:40 So I loved your explanation for that. It's beautiful. 45:45 Ron, how do, as a Christian, 45:50 how do I know if somebody who is gay 45:53 or it's that they used to be gay 45:55 and now they're converted? 45:57 How do you know if they're converted? 46:00 You know, the word of God says, 46:01 "By their fruits, ye shall know them." 46:05 And I know there are a lot of people 46:06 that come to summon our group saying, 46:09 "Well, when are you getting married? 46:12 If you get married, then we'll know you're cured." 46:16 It's a total misunderstanding of what conversion is. 46:21 And one thing we need to, not be private investigators. 46:26 If a person is coming into the faith, 46:29 and they are excited about the Lord, 46:31 and they are turning over new leaf, 46:32 and they are renouncing sin, 46:35 and even acknowledging what their sin was, 46:38 we need to accept that. 46:40 Now if a person comes into the faith 46:43 or into the church, 46:45 and then they start manifesting defense of sin, 46:50 or an agenda, or they're in open sin, 46:55 then we have a problem. 46:58 If they are confronted because we are to, 47:00 if someone is dealing, is involved in open sin, 47:03 they are to be approached, it's a redemptive process. 47:08 If that person is defending the open sin, 47:12 that's a sign of not being converted. 47:16 And if a person is acknowledging that 47:20 they're struggling with sin, and struggling with temptation, 47:24 that's a good sign because, of course, 47:27 there are three texts of scripture 47:29 that really were pivotal in my experience. 47:33 The one about Jesus in Hebrews 4 47:35 that said He was tempted in all points like it's me, 47:39 yet without sin. 47:41 I have heard some people say, 47:42 "Surely you don't mean Jesus was tempted like that, do you?" 47:47 And I said, "Well, how do you think 47:48 He was tempted, like you?" 47:50 You know. 47:52 He was tempted like me. 47:54 Don't take that text away from me 47:57 but Jesus was tempted in all points, 47:59 so it's not a sin to be tempted. 48:01 Otherwise, Jesus might have been the chiefest of sinners, 48:04 not the Apostle Paul or Ron Woolsey. 48:06 And then there's Hebrews 2 that says 48:09 that Jesus suffered being tempted. 48:13 He struggled. 48:15 Well, struggle is something that makes you strong. 48:18 It's okay to struggle with temptation. 48:21 It's the giving in, that's the problem. 48:24 It's the giving up, that's the problem. 48:27 And Jesus resisted, Hebrews 12, 48:29 He resisted under blood striving against sin. 48:32 And so, if we find someone who is struggling 48:35 with temptation, and struggling with sin, 48:38 that's healthy because they're resisting. 48:43 And we need to help them in that resistance, 48:45 help them know how to submit to God on a daily basis, 48:49 then resist the devil, and he will flee. 48:52 Amen. 48:53 But a sure sign of someone not being converted is 48:56 when they are trying to get the church 48:59 to change its position about sin 49:02 rather than the sinner changing his behavior. 49:05 And so we can, I mean, 49:08 we are supposed to be able to discern these things 49:11 that we should not be private investigators 49:13 and try to snoop out someone 49:16 who is coming in from a life of a practice 49:21 that we don't understand, 49:22 or we think is really repulsive, 49:24 or whatever. 49:25 Give them the rain 49:27 that they need to bring forth the fruit 49:30 that they need to, for repentance, 49:33 and to demonstrate that fruit of conversion. 49:36 It's good. It's good. 49:39 Mike, my pastor is gay affirming 49:42 and I don't want to approve of sin. 49:45 How can I be an example of Christ's love 49:47 and not accept gay monogamy 49:50 without being perceived as a bigot? 49:52 Right, it's interesting that Ron's question was 49:55 before my question 49:57 because that really is what we're finding wherever we go 49:59 and present is that you have one or the other. 50:02 You have this extremely critical view of homosexuality 50:07 that it's disgusting 50:09 and we're not gonna talk about it, 50:10 we're not gonna address it, or we're just gonna judge it. 50:13 And then you have completely the other side of making it, 50:16 well, there's nothing wrong with it. 50:17 And, you know, Jesus loves and we're told in the Bible 50:20 that we're supposed to love everybody 50:22 and so, you know, we have this, these extreme on both sides. 50:26 And that's really what we see a lot. 50:29 I think about an example of 50:31 how can I especially in an environment where, 50:35 you know, even the pastor is gay-affirming 50:37 and there is a gentlemen that we met 50:38 that who was gay for over 20 years, 50:41 and living in a gay relationship, 50:43 and all of a sudden, he started having these dreams 50:46 that it was the end of time 50:48 and the Lord was telling him in his dreams, 50:49 "This is not what I have for you". 50:51 And it started moving him to the Bible again, 50:54 he started going to church in Southern California, 50:56 to probably the number one gay-affirming church there. 51:00 And as he's going to church there, 51:02 he's studying for himself and he called us up, 51:05 Coming Out Ministries, and we've talked with him 51:08 and we've said, "Come and check us out." 51:10 You know, he's actually come and seen the movie for himself, 51:14 was moved to tears, and realized that he had, 51:16 he said, at the end of, seen the movie twice, 51:19 he said, "I realize now that, that there are changes 51:21 that I need to make in my life." 51:23 So now he's back in Southern California, 51:25 teaching Sabbath school in this gay-affirming church 51:27 and he is walking with the Lord. 51:30 But he's not doing it in a way 51:32 that he's like shouting from the front that 51:34 this is an abomination and, you know, 51:36 leave this life, instead, he's leading by an example. 51:39 He's showing that the love of Jesus has a power, 51:42 you know, that changes people. 51:44 And I think that, that's powerful. 51:46 If you have a church that is gay-affirming, 51:49 I think that God needs you in that church 51:51 to show what the right is and to plead with the pastor 51:54 to study those, you know, passages in the Bible 51:57 and still if, if nothing has changed, 51:59 then God still needs you to walk the middle line 52:02 to not be hateful, to not be bigoted, 52:05 but to be loving in your approach. 52:07 And I think that people will see that, 52:09 you know, by your example. 52:11 I know of a story of a pastor that when AIDS first came out, 52:14 it was so reprehensible 52:15 that nobody wanted to touch the gays 52:17 but this pastor himself would take blankets 52:20 to the AIDS clinic 52:21 and he would help them to find jobs, 52:23 and he would bring them food, and all of a sudden, 52:25 these gays started coming into his churches. 52:28 And the people started getting up 52:29 and they said, "Pastor, the gays are coming." 52:32 And he said "Well, let them have a seat 52:33 with all the others sinners." 52:35 And that was a powerful example to me that, 52:38 even if you're in a situation that's gay-affirming, 52:41 you be the example, you get up, 52:43 you show what true love looks like to the LGBTQ community 52:48 and at the same time, hold the truth of God. 52:50 And, again, we really strongly believe that 52:53 that some of the gay-affirming issues are correct. 52:57 That we, as a church, have been incredibly unloving, 53:00 and judgmental, 53:02 and until the church really changes that around 53:04 and shows what the love of Christ looks like 53:06 in a redemptive and healing way, 53:08 then we really can make a difference 53:11 in the world today. 53:12 And that's what you guys do, isn't it? 53:14 You go to different churches and organizations 53:16 and kind of share 53:18 how to minister to the LGBT community, 53:22 just how they handle this, 53:25 the various situations 53:27 that are coming up in these questions, 53:28 because people have questions 53:30 and it is such a socially relevant topic 53:35 and so much has changed within the past several years 53:38 that it's just, it's really phenomenal. 53:41 Yvonne, when we were speaking in Pasadena 53:44 and we've talked about Pasadena before 53:46 and there was a gentleman who came very reluctantly 53:49 and was very defensive, 53:50 you know, to Wayne and I as we are presenting, 53:52 but he saw the movie here at the Q&A afterwards. 53:55 And the man came up to us afterwards, 53:57 he was sobbing, the guy was sobbing, 53:59 and he broke down and just told us 54:01 that he has been out of the church for ten years, 54:04 identified as gay, and he said, "Ten years ago, 54:07 I walked out of church knowing that there was no place for me, 54:09 that, that I didn't belong here and they made that very clear." 54:12 And he said, "But after watching your movie," 54:14 he said, "I identified with absolutely every point 54:17 that each person has in the movie." 54:19 And he said, "I realize now 54:21 that I do have a place in the church. 54:23 I realize now I do belong." 54:25 And for him, this revelation 54:27 and these tears were the breakthrough 54:28 that he'd been looking for 54:30 which was especially affirming for all of us 54:32 because that's what we were looking for 54:34 when we came back into the church. 54:36 Amen. 54:37 Good, I just had that, in Coming Out Ministries, 54:40 we do travel around the churches, 54:42 around the world, 54:44 where we're traveling quite a bit internationally 54:46 and our testimonies do, 54:49 we find bring a lot of inspiration to the churches. 54:52 But we go much beyond that 54:54 because we feel it's important to enlighten, 54:57 not just inspire, but to enlighten, to educate. 55:00 Yes. Yes. And to equip. 55:01 And the Lord is using our ministry now, 55:04 to provide, produce and provide the very resources 55:09 that we wish we had when we were going through 55:11 our struggle in our youth. 55:12 So that is a major part of our ministry. 55:15 And then it's so important because we need tools, 55:18 people need tools, and it's not just, 55:20 one of the things I love about Coming Out Ministries is, 55:23 it's not just about the gay culture, 55:26 it's about sin, period. 55:30 People are so afraid to call sin, sin nowadays, 55:33 you know, if it's this, well, don't call it sin 55:36 'cause that's who I am. 55:38 No, sin is sin, 55:40 and but it doesn't mean 55:42 that we can't be redeemed from sin. 55:45 So, I just love what you all do, 55:48 and I'm so proud of the fact 55:50 that you've put yourselves out there 55:53 and you're just, you're really working in the venue, 55:56 in the frontlines really. 55:58 We have one more question. 55:59 Jay, you wanna ask it? Sure. 56:01 This can go out to anyone of you. 56:05 If a gay couple comes to the church 56:07 and brings their children, 56:09 what should be our response to them as a church family 56:11 and what about my children, Sabbath school? 56:14 And you have like 30 seconds there, so... 56:18 Well, you know, 56:20 Jesus, the presence of Jesus begins in the home 56:23 and what we teach is the love of Jesus, 56:25 right, in our churches. 56:26 So if somebody is coming through 56:28 our church doors, they might be hungry. 56:31 Let's hope that they are hungry. 56:33 And so we should be welcoming, 56:35 and we should be welcoming in to, to anyone, 56:37 any sinner that's walking through the church doors, 56:40 and so that the point is, is that, in welcoming them, 56:44 we need not let the discussion end there, 56:48 the education is that we would reach out to people, 56:52 and help them, listen to their stories, 56:54 find out about them, love their children, 56:57 love one another, care for them, 56:59 but don't withhold Jesus. 57:04 Thank you. 57:05 Do you have a closing thought, Jay? 57:07 Yeah, you know, 57:10 sometimes we really ought to take a look 57:12 in the mirror instead of looking at everyone else 57:16 and judging them for their sins. 57:19 You know, we have sins of our own, 57:22 and sin is sin, 57:23 but God can give us the victory over sin. 57:26 Christ came down and took on human flesh 57:29 and paid the price for our sins, 57:31 so that we don't have to. 57:33 Make the choice today, to serve Christ 57:36 before it's too late. 57:37 Thank you. Thank you for joining me here. 57:39 I'm glad to be here. It was great. 57:41 And thank you all so much, please continue, 57:45 continue with the fight, and the struggle, 57:47 I know it's hard. 57:48 I know that in several instances 57:50 you guys get cancelled, turned away, or whatever, 57:55 but if you have an organization, a school, 57:59 college, high school, academy, or church, whatever, 58:03 please welcome Coming Out Ministries. 58:06 And thank you for joining us. 58:08 Join us next time 'cause it just wouldn't be 58:09 the same without you. |
Revised 2017-03-20