Participants:
Series Code: UBR
Program Code: UBR200020S
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00:01 Are you having trouble navigating
00:02 through the storms of your life? 00:04 Well, stay tuned to meet a man that can point you 00:06 in the right direction. 00:08 My name is Yvonne Shelton, 00:10 and you're watching Urban Report. 00:34 Hello, and welcome to Urban Report. 00:37 My guest today is Pastor Ron Woolsey, 00:40 co-founder and speaker of Coming Out Ministries. 00:44 He's authored several books as a concert musician, 00:47 and is here to discuss his latest book, 00:50 "Navigating the Storms." 00:52 Welcome to Urban Report, Pastor Ron. 00:54 Let's do a fist bump. 00:56 All right. 00:57 Good to be back on the set with you. 00:58 Oh, it's so great to be with family. 01:00 Always fun. 01:01 Yeah, always fun. Thank you. 01:02 It's always great to have you because you just... 01:06 I just love what you and your team stand for 01:11 with Coming Out Ministries. 01:12 It is such a, an amazing, amazing ministry. 01:16 Tell us about Coming Out Ministries 01:18 and tell us about your journey? 01:21 Okay, there were several of us 01:24 working independently in ministry, 01:27 individually, sharing our stories 01:30 around the country in various places 01:31 around the world. 01:33 I come out of the gay culture 01:35 converted from that 29 years ago now. 01:38 I've been married 28 years. 01:41 We have children and grandchildren. 01:42 The Lord is good. Amen. 01:44 But, you know, the common myth is once gay always gay. 01:48 It only takes one person to disprove that myth. 01:51 But fortunately, I'm not the only one. 01:54 We are finding people all over the world 01:56 that have that same experience of victory in Jesus. 01:59 And several of us heard about each other. 02:02 We decided to meet up together at a camp meeting. 02:07 So Cal California 10 years ago this month, 02:10 and I was doing music there and speaking there. 02:14 And we all got together 02:15 and talked about our experiences 02:18 and how we were working in ministry individually. 02:21 And we realized, you know, we probably could make 02:24 more of an impact as a joint ministry 02:27 than we each one can individually. 02:30 So we came out of that camp meeting 02:32 as Coming Out Ministries. 02:34 Wow, what a blessing. 02:36 And since then, how long have you been together? 02:38 Ten years. 02:40 We just had a 10 year anniversary 02:43 last weekend, 02:45 we did an online retreat. 02:47 We had like 1,100 people tuning in to our program, 02:51 yeah, celebrating our 10th year anniversary. 02:53 Oh, that's beautiful, beautiful. 02:55 You know, it's so interesting to me that 02:57 in our culture today, there's so much emphasis 03:00 is being placed on you're born that way. 03:04 And if you're born that way, if you're born gay, 03:08 you can't change that, 03:09 no more than you can change your race. 03:12 And so you're telling us that that is not 03:15 a scientific assumption that that is, 03:19 that there is true that you are not born that way. 03:22 Right. That is a political assumption. 03:25 Uh-huh. 03:27 And the one reason we know that that cannot be true. 03:32 The Bible doesn't condemn anybody for their race, 03:35 or their gender, their height, 03:40 maybe their weight, you know, 03:42 but things that are unchangeable 03:44 that we're born with a genetic set 03:46 we're born with and so forth. 03:47 But God does condemn homosexuality, 03:50 among a whole list of things. 03:53 I've written it up all of the abominations 03:55 in the Bible, 03:56 and homosexuality is only one. 03:58 And, Yvonne, the very fact that He condemns it 04:01 tells me He's got an answer. 04:03 He's not going to condemn something 04:04 that He doesn't have an answer for. 04:06 That's right. 04:07 What kind of a God would He be if He points out something 04:10 that cannot be changed, and then condemns you for it? 04:13 Exactly. 04:14 And the whole idea of, you know, the abomination. 04:16 I know that there are certain people 04:19 who feel as though they are the abomination. 04:22 That's not what the Word says, 04:23 the practice is the abomination, 04:25 not the person. 04:27 Right. 04:28 And I think that, so often people feel condemned 04:33 by that and condemned by Christians 04:35 who don't know how to treat them and love. 04:39 How do you treat a person who is in the gay culture? 04:45 How do you treat them and let them know what, 04:49 you know, what this is still sin. 04:51 How do you navigate that? 04:53 Well, as a Christian, we follow Christ. 04:57 We follow His example. 04:59 And so we look in the Word, you know, 05:01 how did Jesus deal with sinners? 05:05 He mingled with them. 05:07 He never participated in their sin, 05:10 that He didn't condemn them. 05:12 He showed compassion without condemnation. 05:16 He never compromised His principles 05:18 and His behavior, 05:20 but He showed great compassion. 05:23 Several years ago, Shawn Boonstra and I 05:25 did a series together for It is Written 05:28 called "Compassion without Compromise." 05:31 And I think about the text where Jesus was talking 05:36 to Mary after she was brought to Him 05:38 because of her adultery. 05:39 And He said, "Neither do I condemn thee 05:41 as compassion. 05:43 Go and sin no more." 05:45 That's without compromise. 05:47 So good balance there. 05:49 And so we need to be the same. 05:50 If we truly love gay people and we do, and praise God, 05:54 we do because I used to be one. 05:56 And I enjoyed being loved, you know. 05:58 And if we love them, we're not going to lie to them. 06:03 We can very compassionately share the truth. 06:07 It's up to everyone to choose for themselves, 06:11 whether to follow truth or not. 06:13 But we can be loving and compassionate 06:16 and still be solidly biblical. 06:19 Yes. 06:20 It's not being fair to them, 06:24 to leave them where they are. 06:26 It's not our job to convict them. 06:30 But it's our job to share the tools for victory. 06:33 And so, the whole idea of loving people, 06:38 and you brought this out in one of our conversations 06:41 before that, how do you love people? 06:45 You love them by being honest with them, 06:48 telling them the truth. 06:50 Well, I think, Yvonne, there are two kinds of love. 06:52 There's a cheap love, which is an indulgent love, 06:55 which is, I don't want to be bothered, 06:57 I'll just love you down the Broadway to destruction. 07:01 I love you all the way, 07:02 you're still going to be destroyed but I love you. 07:05 But that's not a genuine love. 07:07 Jesus demonstrated His love 07:09 that He was willing to give His life 07:11 to save the person that He loved. 07:13 So I think Jesus' kind of love is the love that 07:17 will love people into and up along the narrow way 07:21 which leads unto eternal life, 07:23 rather than the easy, 07:26 cheap love which is love the people as they are 07:28 and leaves them there. 07:30 Yes, yes. 07:31 And that's key. 07:32 He loves us wherever we are, but He doesn't leave us there. 07:35 Right. He loves us too much to leave us in our misery. 07:38 Yes. 07:40 Thing that is we don't always know we're miserable. 07:42 If misery is all we've ever known, 07:44 that's our normal. 07:45 We may not even know we're miserable, 07:48 but Jesus says all. 07:50 Well, it's like His letter to the Laodiceans. 07:53 You think you're rich, increase in goods, 07:55 and have need of nothing. 07:57 And He says, "You don't even have any idea 08:00 how miserable you are wretched, poor, blind, 08:03 and naked, and you have no idea." 08:05 So that's the kind of love that 08:09 Jesus manifests towards us. 08:10 Yes, yes. 08:12 And in that, you bring out God's love in this book. 08:16 What inspired you to write Navigating the Storms? 08:19 And you've written other books too? 08:21 Yes. Why this one? 08:22 Well, you know, this program is called Urban Report. 08:25 Right. Right. 08:27 And so we don't have to look very far, Yvonne, 08:29 to see all of the turmoil in the urban communities today. 08:33 Correct. 08:36 We see violence and bloodshed and mayhem, 08:39 and looting and rioting. 08:41 And it's like the whole world is embroiled in the storms, 08:45 the convulsive storms of chaos, and rebellion, and confusion. 08:50 And that is also typical 08:55 of what's going on in the spiritual world, 08:58 in the social world, 09:01 and, of course, our ministry dealing so much 09:04 with the LGBT issue. 09:06 It's involved, involving the sexual world as well. 09:11 And so you notice that the name of the book is Navigating 09:15 the Storms of Contemporary Sexuality, 09:18 Identity, and Love. 09:21 And the reason for writing the book is because 09:24 there are so many voices out there 09:27 that are dealing with this issue 09:28 that are using the cheap love approach, 09:32 rather than the tough love or godly love approach. 09:37 And so we're getting mixed signals. 09:39 And we see polarization in the world, 09:42 polarization in the political world, 09:45 in the spiritual world, 09:48 in the church, and these two sides are, 09:52 well, one approach is to look at the Bible 09:55 through the lens of today's culture 09:58 and interpret it that way. 10:00 The other approach is to look at today's culture 10:03 through the lens of Scripture. 10:05 And so you see, they don't communicate very well, 10:09 because they have a different rule of faith 10:11 and practice. 10:12 And this is what we're seeing in the Christian world 10:16 is conflicting messages, 10:19 where it's easier 10:22 to just embrace the LGBT issue, 10:26 rather than confront it 10:28 the way Jesus would with compassion and love, 10:32 but without compromise. 10:34 And so, throughout the Christian world 10:36 we see these contradictory approaches, 10:40 conflicting approaches to the LGBT issue. 10:45 And as we see this literature going out, 10:49 to all the pastors and all the teachers 10:51 and seminars being conducted to train pastors and teachers 10:55 in what is now being called posture shift. 10:59 Hmm, unpack that a little bit, what's a posture shift? 11:02 Posture shift is trying to help the church 11:05 change its posture on an issue. 11:10 In other words, change its stance, 11:13 which really boils down to lowering your standards. 11:18 And I am of the opinion based, 11:21 I think, on the Word of God, 11:23 that rather than have the church change its posture, 11:27 we need to help the sinner have a change of heart. 11:31 It's a totally different approach. 11:33 One is cultural. 11:35 One is biblical. 11:36 And we're trying to approach this issue 11:39 from a biblical standpoint. 11:41 And you notice at the top of the book 11:42 that there's this little description, 11:45 guided by the Word of God, 11:47 true science and research, 11:50 and the voice of experience and reason. 11:53 There's a lot in that. 11:55 But notice, first of all, is the Word of God. 11:59 One of my favorite passages, Isaiah 1, "Come now, 12:02 God says, and let us reason together." 12:05 I love that. 12:06 He wants what He asks of us, Yvonne, is reasonable. 12:10 So that's number one. 12:12 If the science does not match the Word of God, 12:15 then the science is faulty. 12:16 But let's go back to reasoning because God wants us 12:19 to be able to talk to Him about it, 12:23 to be able to receive instruction from His Word, 12:26 which is how He can speak to us. 12:29 And so He wants us to reason it out with Him. 12:33 Yes. 12:34 Look at it logically, 12:35 not through the lens of culture. 12:37 Because feelings and emotions. 12:40 And the word that is so precious to me is together. 12:45 Let's reason together. 12:46 In other words, He will listen to our logic. 12:49 He will listen to us vent and explain and excuse 12:54 and, you know, make all of these rationales. 12:58 But He wants to be in on the conversation, too. 13:01 And if He listens to us, 13:04 then He expects us to listen to Him. 13:05 Absolutely. 13:07 And who do you think will have the best points? 13:08 He probably would like to have the last word 13:10 and I think we're wise to let Him have it. 13:13 Have that last word because, I mean He is perfect wisdom. 13:17 Yes. Yes. 13:18 He's a loving Father that created us. 13:22 He knows what is best for what He created. 13:25 Yes, He's omniscient. Yes. 13:27 So He knows everything. 13:29 And He also knows better than anyone how Satan rules. 13:33 And how he attempts to use sophistry 13:36 and everything possible to distract and destroy. 13:40 So yes, so what about the true science and research? 13:44 What have you found with science 13:47 that that kind of supports 13:50 what the Word says because the Word does not, 13:52 the Word stands on its own. 13:55 But many people will use science and say, 13:58 well, the science says da-da, da-da, da-da. 14:01 And it might be contrary to what the Word says. 14:04 How did you navigate through that? 14:06 We'll also we hear this word consensus. 14:09 Hear that all the time that the consensus 14:12 from the scientific research is so and so. 14:16 It's not a consensus, because scientists 14:21 change their positions. 14:23 With every generation, 14:24 you come up with a different position. 14:26 Science is in science, if you believe in evolution, 14:29 science is evolving, right? 14:31 Word of God is not but science is. 14:35 And when you look at scientific reports, 14:38 if you see something that contradicts the Word of God, 14:41 they need to go back to their research, 14:44 because the Word of God is going to be the rule. 14:48 And there is a lot of science 14:50 that is coming out that backs up the Word of God 14:54 and I really praise the Lord for that. 14:57 But for example, one of the myths is that 15:01 we're just born gay, 15:03 And I could have invented that myself, 15:06 but because I use that excuse for years, 15:09 but someone else came up with it 15:10 before I went into the gay world. 15:12 So back in 1985, 15:16 that myth got started with the two gentlemen 15:20 were Kirk and Madsen. 15:22 One was a psychologist and one was a politician. 15:28 So you see... And were they themselves gay? 15:30 Yes, gay politics and psychology. 15:34 And the gay movement had made so many advances 15:37 that they decided, 15:39 I mean, the political community decided 15:42 that they wanted to have legal minority status. 15:46 And the benefits that come with that. 15:49 Well, one of the three criteria 15:51 is you have to be born that way. 15:54 Well, up until then, no one really bought that. 15:58 But they decided, if we use the media, 16:01 if we say it loudly enough, long enough, 16:04 and frequently enough, 16:06 using every possible means to get it out there, 16:09 eventually it will believable, it will be believable. 16:13 And that's where we are today, because when we go out 16:16 and have seminars in churches and so forth, 16:18 this question always comes up. 16:21 What about those who are just born gay? 16:24 See, it's now become believable, 16:27 even in the church. 16:29 But it was totally, it's a hoax. 16:31 It was built upon a desire for privilege 16:34 or special treatment or special benefits, you know. 16:38 So that's just some of the research 16:39 that's touched on in here. 16:41 It's so interesting to me, Pastor Ron, 16:43 how the media has been used to promote 16:47 the idea of gay relationships being normal, 16:52 gay relationships being acceptable societally 16:57 and, you know, it's okay. 17:00 It's okay. That's what the media promotes. 17:03 It's okay. 17:04 Not only is it okay, but if you speak out against it, 17:08 not speaking out against the people themselves, 17:11 but against the practice, you become, 17:14 you know, they have a label for you homophobic, 17:16 so you don't want to talk about it being sin, 17:19 because if you talk about it as being sin, 17:22 you are labeled as being homophobic. 17:24 So they put you in this little box, if you let them. 17:27 Put you in this little box 17:28 where you don't want to say anything, 17:30 because you don't want to appear 17:31 as though you're intolerant. 17:33 And yet, you can't say anything now. 17:37 I mean, no one can say anything about anything, 17:40 because it's just being suppressed. 17:44 I know when you go to do Coming Out Ministries seminars, 17:48 you get a lot of pushback. 17:50 What kind of pushback do you get from Christians? 17:54 Well, first of all, if I were homophobic, 17:57 I wouldn't be in this ministry. 17:58 Right? 18:00 If I were afraid of homosexuality, 18:02 I wouldn't be involved in it. 18:04 If I hated the gay people, I wouldn't be involved with it. 18:08 I would just let it go. 18:11 So I came up with a better word. 18:13 I'm homoagapic. 18:15 Oh, I like that. 18:17 I love gay people. I was gay. 18:19 I know gay people. I love them. 18:20 And I want them to find the joy that I have in my salvation 18:24 for themselves. 18:26 Yes. But yes, we get pushback. 18:28 And unfortunately, Yvonne, 18:31 a lot of our pushback is from within the church. 18:34 Because of this polarization, there is, 18:39 well, I'm sure there's more than two ideologies. 18:41 But there are two conflicting ones, 18:44 in that people want to be saved in sin 18:48 rather than from sin. 18:50 So you see the contradiction, the conflict there? 18:53 And so those who want to be gay Christians, 18:57 and accept gay Christians, they want the church 19:01 to just be loving and accepting. 19:03 That's not the gospel. 19:05 The gospel is about restoring us 19:08 to what God created us to be in the first place. 19:11 It's a redemptive, transforming process. 19:16 And if we're just loved and accepted 19:18 without any conversion without any change. 19:22 Now, every Christian talks about being converted. 19:25 A lot of people say, Well, I was saved. 19:28 Yeah, and they'll tell you when they were saved. 19:31 And I have to say, from what you know, 19:33 but they were saved or they were converted. 19:36 The word converted means changed. 19:38 Every Christian that is truly converted 19:41 is truly changed. 19:43 They submit to that process. 19:45 But with the gay issue, 19:48 there is this protective hedge about the LGBT community 19:52 for some reason that they don't need to change. 19:56 They get a pass. 19:58 God loves them the way they are and where they are 20:02 the way they are, which is not true. 20:04 God loves them where they are, but not the way they are. 20:08 He hates that sin. 20:11 So we get pushback because 20:14 there are those that are protecting 20:16 the LGBT issue within the church. 20:19 They don't want to be confronted 20:21 with the sin issue that it is. 20:24 Yes. 20:25 Tell us some more about Navigating the Storms. 20:29 And what really led you 20:32 into this particular format? 20:35 Well, as a young college student, 20:38 I took up flying. 20:41 And I started out with airplanes, 20:42 but I ended up later flying hang gliders. 20:45 But on my solo cross-country flight, 20:48 I got caught in a violent storm. 20:50 And so I used that story to start off the book. 20:54 Because I've found there are so many object lessons 20:58 that we can find in life's experiences, 21:00 how I got out of this storm, 21:02 and though it threw me way off course, 21:05 I was able to reorient, 21:07 recalibrate, and fly safely to my destination. 21:11 And so that's the story that starts off the book. 21:18 But then the object lessons that I found in there 21:20 about trusting your instructor, 21:24 trusting your, excuse me, 21:26 trusting your instruction, knowing your limitations, 21:31 charting your course, using reliable equipment, 21:37 and seeking assistance, you know, air traffic control. 21:41 When you're flying, you're dependent upon 21:44 air traffic control many times. 21:46 And I think that's a wonderful illustration 21:48 about our relationship 21:50 with the Lord seeking assistance. 21:53 And so I go through all of these different steps 21:55 that I went through and apply it 21:57 to navigating the storms of contemporary sexuality, 22:01 identity and love. 22:03 Yes, it's wonderful. 22:04 And you also have a pamphlet in here. 22:09 Well, it didn't come with it. 22:11 But you also have a pamphlet that's free, 22:14 called Turbulence Ahead. 22:16 Right. Tell us about that? 22:18 Well, I... 22:20 In this little pamphlet, I address maybe seven points 22:24 that are being pushed with this issue 22:29 of trying to get the church to change its posture. 22:32 And the first one I mentioned about changing our position 22:35 rather than the sinner changing, 22:37 having a change of heart 22:40 that some of these and I know we don't have much time, 22:44 but learning to love and nurture 22:47 our gay young people. 22:49 And that's where I address the issue of what kind of love. 22:52 Do we love them down the Broadway by just pacifying, 22:56 embracing them and not showing them 22:58 that they need a savior from sin? 23:00 Or do we love them into the narrow way 23:02 that leads to life? 23:05 And another thing that is being taught 23:09 to pastors and teachers and within the church 23:11 is that it's not our responsibility 23:13 to try to change one's LGBT orientation or identity. 23:19 That's where we talk about conversion. 23:21 Everyone coming to Christ goes through conversion or change. 23:25 I like this quote, 23:27 is commentary on 2 Corinthians 5:17. 23:30 "Therefore, if any man be in Christ, 23:32 he is a new creature." 23:34 This commentary that is so beautiful 23:37 is that the new birth consists in having new motives, 23:40 new tastes, new tendencies, and a genuine conversion 23:44 changes hereditary 23:46 and cultivated tendencies to wrong. 23:48 That's what conversion is. 23:50 So we address that. 23:52 Another point that's brought out as God loves 23:55 LGBT people unconditionally. 23:59 And I have to stress the fact that God loves everyone. 24:01 He loves the lost. 24:03 Not everyone will be in the kingdom, 24:06 not everyone that says, Lord, Lord 24:09 will enter the kingdom, and that's Christians. 24:11 Yes. 24:13 Another point that is pointed out 24:15 in so much of the literature today is that 24:17 gay Christians may be deeply religious. 24:21 And, you know, I think logically, 24:23 I think if I were not a pastor, I'd probably be an attorney. 24:28 Because I like logical thinking, 24:29 I think wait a minute. 24:31 Gay Christians may be deeply religious. 24:34 Aren't pagans deeply religious? 24:36 Aren't militant Islamic extremists 24:40 deeply religious? 24:41 But is that enough? 24:43 There has to be more to it. 24:45 So we explore that. 24:48 People can choose their behaviors 24:49 but not their identity. 24:51 That is so unscriptural. 24:55 Satan wants to brand us with his identity 24:58 by identifying us by the nature of our temptations. 25:02 But Jesus was tempted in all points 25:04 like as we are yet without sin. 25:06 We don't label Jesus 25:07 by the nature of His temptations. 25:09 That's true. 25:10 We shouldn't identify ourselves. 25:13 We identify by the direction we want to go, 25:16 not the direction we pulled. 25:18 It's like in the airplane, tailwinds, headwinds, 25:22 crosswinds, violent storms, 25:23 they'll blow you all over the place. 25:25 But a pilot is not going to allow 25:27 the weather conditions 25:29 to determine his destination 25:31 or his destination will be a fatal one, right? 25:35 Yes, yes. 25:37 So anyway, those are just some of the points 25:41 that are brought out. 25:42 It's really good. 25:43 In this flyer it's very briefly, 25:45 but more so in the book, yeah. 25:47 How can people reach you? 25:49 We need to put your address up on this, on the screen, 25:53 because people want to, 25:55 I know they're going to want to get this book. 25:57 This is a book to share. 25:58 This is a book to read yourself and to share 26:03 is really, really good and so well put together. 26:06 Thank you. So well put together. 26:07 So let's put your address up on the screen. 26:10 And tell us your address please, Pastor. 26:12 All right, our address. 26:14 And for some of you 26:15 who are familiar with our ministry, 26:16 we have a new address. 26:18 It's Coming Out Ministries, 26:20 PO Box 107, In Tilly, Arkansas, 26:25 the heart of the country 72679. 26:29 Again, PO Box 107. 26:32 Tilly, Arkansas 72679. 26:35 And your website? 26:37 Yes. And our website is very easy. 26:39 It's ComingOutMinistries.org. Right. 26:44 And this book and all of our resources 26:46 are available through our website. 26:49 And people can call you as well. 26:50 Yes, if they want to call, 870-504-0173. 26:56 That's great. That's great. 26:58 Because I know people are going to want to invite you to come. 27:01 One of the things that you do is you, 27:05 you talk about victory and that's such a blessing. 27:08 Thank you so much for being with us today. 27:11 Oh, thank you for this opportunity. 27:13 Always a delight. 27:14 Well, thank you so much. 27:15 We appreciate you and all that you do 27:18 because it is not easy 27:20 to be going against the culture of the tide of the culture. 27:25 And so we thank you so much. 27:27 And we thank you for tuning in. 27:30 Order this book, support this ministry, 27:32 send them a donation. 27:34 They really need some assistance. 27:38 They need some assistance from you 27:39 because it's hard to go up against the culture. 27:44 And so they get some resistance 27:46 but, you know, the Lord is in control. 27:48 Thank you so much for being with us. 27:50 Join us next time because you know what? 27:52 It just wouldn't be the same without you. 27:56 Amen. |
Revised 2020-11-09