Wonderfully Made

Winning The Battle With Breast Cancer

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Allan Handysides, Mollie Steenson, Stoy Proctor

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Series Code: WM

Program Code: WM000345


00:36 Hello, welcome to "Wonderfully Made"
00:39 My name is Stoy Proctor
00:40 and today, we're going to be discussing the topic
00:44 "Breast Cancer"
00:46 I'd like to welcome as our guest Dr. Allan Handysides
00:50 and he'll be answering questions today for us on this topic.
00:54 Thank you, Stoy, it's a pleasure to be with you here today.
00:58 Allan, what are some of the risks of breast cancer?
01:04 Supposed you're diagnosed with breast cancer,
01:08 what happens?
01:10 Well, I think perhaps what the
01:11 question that you have in mind is...
01:13 Are there predisposing factors that give rise to breast cancer?
01:18 The risk of breast cancer, of course, is of dying...
01:20 and that's why it's very important to diagnose it early
01:23 But, people who take an intelligent look at themselves
01:28 and their families, they may know whether they are
01:31 at increased risk or not.
01:32 There are many, many factors, for instance...
01:34 As women get older, and as men get older,
01:37 because we should remember that this is a disease that
01:38 can affect both men and women...
01:41 Although maybe 99%, 99.5 or more percent are in women.
01:47 A small number of men also get breast cancer.
01:51 And men who find a lump in their breast
01:53 should take particular care about it because
01:56 it can be very serious for men too.
01:59 Basically, as women or men age, they are more predisposed.
02:04 Women over the age of 60 are the group that are more likely
02:08 to have breast cancer.
02:10 In addition to this, younger women have to be
02:13 aware of their genetic history
02:15 because there are certain families in which breast cancer
02:19 is much more common.
02:21 For instance, if a mother, and her sisters, and maybe
02:24 a couple of your siblings have breast cancer,
02:28 they you really need to take special care,
02:31 because you may be carrying a GENE that predisposes
02:34 to breast cancer.
02:36 There are other factors... environmental factors
02:38 For instance, a person that becomes obese...
02:40 Obesity has a very distinct relationship to breast cancer.
02:46 Dietary factors have been
02:48 difficult to tie into breast cancer.. as you know.
02:51 But it's also important if there has been a history of radiation
02:57 ...excessive radiation. Exposure
03:00 Exposure, you know that can also be associated with
03:04 increased risk of breast cancer.
03:06 Now suppose a woman is being told that she has a tumor...
03:11 is this synonymous with cancer?
03:13 I think this is something that we should really
03:15 say at the outset of our program
03:17 A tumor means an overgrowth of cells.
03:20 A growth of cells that are probably in excess
03:23 to those that are required for the function
03:25 of that particular tissue.
03:27 Now if those are relatively normal cells...
03:29 their growth is not wild, but is somewhat regulated
03:33 just that there tends to be overgrowth,
03:34 that may be a benign tumor.
03:37 So you can think of a tumor as a lump.
03:39 ...9 out of 10 lumps that women are going to find
03:42 are going to be benign.
03:44 So, if there are women watching this program,
03:47 you need to understand
03:49 that if you find a lump in your breast, don't panic because
03:52 ...90% of the time, it's just a benign tumor.
03:56 And so, really, the detection of breast cancer
04:01 is what's most important.
04:03 So now, could you tell us more about self-detection...
04:06 self-examination?
04:08 The diagnosis from a physician... Yes
04:11 Self-examination has been studied and some people have
04:15 said... that regular and routine self-examination
04:18 does not result in fewer deaths from breast cancer.
04:23 On the other hand, we must acknowledge that the MAJORITY
04:27 In fact, the VAST majority of breast cancers
04:31 are detected by women themselves.
04:33 And so it would seem that regular vigilance
04:38 and an awareness of one's own body
04:41 is very important.
04:43 I often say, that one should get up and first thing
04:46 in the morning and look at yourself in the mirror and say..
04:48 "Hello beautiful!" Lift up your arms like this, you know,
04:50 and see how your breasts ride on the chest...
04:53 to be sure that there's not any puckering, or pulling
04:56 of the skin... to be sure that the breasts
04:59 are looking well and fine.
05:02 In fact, at this point, I would like us to bring to us for
05:06 an interview, Mollie...
05:08 Mollie has a very interesting story that I would like
05:12 her to share with us at this time.
05:17 Mollie, I'm so pleased that
05:19 you could be with us today... Well thank you!
05:21 You have a wonderful story to tell, and I think that
05:23 our viewers will love to hear it.
05:26 You actually had breast cancer. Yes, I did...
05:29 Would you like to tell us how you found that?
05:32 Well, I had gone for my yearly checkup in April,
05:35 and they didn't find a thing.
05:36 And, in June though, as I was doing a self exam,
05:40 I found what I thought was a lump, but it didn't really
05:43 ALARM me... but I thought, you know, probably I should
05:46 go have a mammogram.
05:47 And so, I called the local lab, and they took me in
05:51 and sure enough, they found a lump as well.
05:55 And they referred me then to a surgeon in Marion,
05:59 and they sent my lab work over to him...
06:02 and he did a biopsy...
06:04 He's the one that, after the needle biopsy, I think is
06:08 what he did initially...
06:09 He said, "You know, you do have something that
06:14 looks quite cancerous. "
06:15 How did you feel at that moment?
06:17 It just STUNNED me!
06:19 It just absolutely did not occur to me that I
06:22 could have cancer.
06:23 I was the HEALTHY one in my family.
06:25 I was the one that ate healthy...
06:27 and was NEVER sick!
06:30 Actually, I can tell people now...
06:31 I've rarely ever been sick...
06:33 OH! Except that time I had cancer!
06:36 So what happened after that?
06:38 Well, he took me in, first of all, for a lumpectomy
06:42 and came back and told me,
06:44 "You know, we're going to have to go even further
06:47 than this. "We're going to have to do
06:48 a mastectomy because the lumpectomy, there was still
06:51 1 little tentacle that ran a little too far. "
06:55 And I didn't want to have such major surgery...
07:00 to me, it was major... without a second opinion.
07:03 So we sent the results, all of the lab reports and everything
07:07 off to Chicago to someone there...
07:10 A very, very smart thing to do.
07:11 And they conferred that what I REALLY needed to do
07:16 was have a mastectomy.
07:18 And so, you know, I went into the doctor's office
07:22 Dr. Voss, and he told me...
07:24 "You know, we've got to schedule you for a mastectomy...
07:27 this is definitely cancer, and the other doctor has confirmed
07:32 my initial diagnosis that you needed to have a mastectomy. "
07:36 And I said, "Well, you know, probably I could work this
07:39 into my schedule... maybe the middle of February. "
07:42 Now this was October...
07:43 And he said, "No, you don't understand,
07:45 we need to do this next week. "
07:48 THAT just floored me!
07:49 I wasn't psychologically prepared to do it that quickly.
07:52 I needed time, but you know those doctors
07:55 just won't let you wait...
07:56 Not when you've got a problem like cancer!
07:58 And so, we went ahead and had the surgery done...
08:02 And, you know, that was quite a while ago.
08:06 How long ago was all this?
08:07 I was just thinking about that, 8 years and 3 months ago
08:11 And what I have to do, of course, every year
08:14 is go have all of my lab work done,
08:16 my blood work done, and so forth...
08:17 And once a year, I can walk away from my doctor's office
08:20 after he looks over all the results, and he tells me...
08:24 "You're ABSOLUTELY cancer-free!"
08:26 So once a year, I can walk away from that doctor's office
08:29 and say... "I'm cancer-free and I can prove it"
08:32 It DOES feel good!
08:33 Wonderful, it really is wonderful!
08:35 Did you have any reconstructive surgery afterwards?
08:38 Yes, as a matter of fact, I felt like I was
08:40 young at the time, and I thought
08:42 "You know, it's not so much vanity-sake, other than
08:46 "I just want to look normal in my clothes. "
08:48 Besides that, the insurance covered it.
08:51 And I thought, "Why not?" Go for it!
08:53 And so, I did have reconstruction done.
08:56 But, you know, that was more painful than the actual surgery
09:01 itself... the reconstruction, it takes a while
09:04 and they actually go UNDER the muscle,
09:07 and then they s-t-r-e-t-c-h it out,
09:09 and that can be quite painful.
09:11 On this side of it, I'm glad that I did, just simply because
09:14 my clothes look normal.
09:16 I just wanted to look normal.
09:17 I didn't want to look abnormal... and God blessed me.
09:21 Well, you couldn't look more normal today than that...
09:25 And, of course, 8 years and 3 months,
09:26 or nearly going on 9 years...
09:28 We can DEFINITELY say you're cured... Absolutely!
09:30 But you know, I think that the essential element
09:33 that I would like our viewers to take away from this is
09:36 that YOU found the lump. Yes, I did
09:39 And that actually is the common way that breast cancer is found
09:44 And it was a small lump, but what I didn't do was
09:47 say... "Oh, that's nothing. " Exactly
09:49 Even though I didn't want to believe
09:51 that it could be anything... there was still that possibility
09:53 And so, I did go ahead and have further testing done.
09:59 Now Mollie, we have a model of breasts, and this model
10:05 of breasts has, within the left breast, some lumps...
10:09 And I would like it if you would, for our viewers,
10:12 show how we examine the breasts... Okay, be glad to
10:17 Here's the model, and what you're doing right there, Mollie
10:21 is NOT the way to examine the breast...
10:23 and I'm sure that's what you know...
10:25 We don't stab the breast with our fingertips...
10:27 Instead, we use the flat portion of our fingers,
10:31 the palps of our fingers, and we want to be
10:34 very methodical and cover the whole of the breast area.
10:38 So that means, we must start up at the clavicle,
10:41 which is the collarbone, and we can go in a radial fashion
10:45 in circles, or as we're doing here, go up and down
10:47 methodically crisscrossing the breast.
10:51 Now, I think you found something right there...
10:53 That must give you a funny feeling...
10:55 Yes, there's a lump.
10:56 But this breast here, as we do it, has several lumps.
11:00 As we come over the nipple area, it's important
11:02 NOT to be afraid to examine beneath the nipple...
11:06 And, indeed, in this model, there is, as you're going
11:10 back to it there, a lump underneath the nipple.
11:14 Also, just to show that breast lumps can occur ANYWHERE,
11:18 they have placed another lump,
11:19 and you're feeling it right there.
11:21 Now, a breast examination is not complete without examining
11:25 under the armpit, as you are doing
11:27 with your fingers right there.
11:28 And I believe... there you found something.
11:30 You have found a lymph node.
11:32 We would hope that people would not find a lymph node
11:36 in the axilla.
11:38 So Mollie, you've shown our patients how to
11:42 examine a breast, and you have also shown them
11:45 that regular examination, being alert,
11:49 and taking care of yourself
11:50 results in you looking so well today...
11:52 Well, thank you very much.
11:53 Mollie, thank you so much... You're very welcome
11:57 It's been a pleasure having you here... thank you.
12:00 Some of you who watched this last segment may be wondering...
12:03 "What happens if I find a lump in my breast?"
12:08 Let's ask Dr. Handysides...
12:10 Dr. Handysides, what is the next step?
12:13 Well, the next step is to go and visit your health professional.
12:16 You really want to get a professional opinion
12:18 on this lump.
12:20 And the lump needs to be examined clinically,
12:23 because there are certain consistencies, mobilities,
12:27 attachments and features about a lump that a
12:30 health professional will be able to identify as being
12:34 reassuring, or possibly suggestive that things need
12:37 to be further investigated.
12:40 It may be that an ultrasound would show whether this
12:43 was a cyst or not, because it might show fluid in there.
12:46 Depending on your age, and depending on your
12:50 predisposing factors, he may want to do mammography.
12:55 Even CT and MRI of the breast have been shown to be
13:01 very, very good.
13:03 But in a situation where there is a lump...
13:06 that cannot be positively identified,
13:09 I can't stress how important it is that there should be
13:14 a definitive diagnosis, and that is usually made by biopsy.
13:18 One can't just say...
13:20 "Well, let's watch it and see... or PERHAPS
13:25 it's this or perhaps... "
13:26 You REALLY NEED to make a definitive diagnosis.
13:28 And as Mollie said, her doctor was not prepared to wait
13:31 until next February from October
13:34 They wanted to move ahead. Next week...
13:35 It doesn't make a difference of a week...
13:38 but certainly months begin to count.
13:41 So, a biopsy is the first step.
13:44 Now what about mammograms? When do they come in?
13:47 Well, mammography has been used, and is being used
13:50 as a screening device.
13:52 There's been a lot of controversy about mammography
13:54 because, first of all, the studies have sometimes
13:58 differed as to its effectiveness as a screening tool.
14:02 It does not detect all cancers.
14:05 It maybe will give very positive results in 90%.
14:09 That's very good... and you couple that with
14:12 self-examination, clinical examination,
14:15 ultrasound and so forth...
14:17 And the detectible cancers rise even more.
14:21 So vigilance is very important,
14:24 and mammography today has a very, very low
14:26 amount of radiation.
14:28 The modern technology has reduced the amount of radiation
14:31 Probably the most uncomfortable thing about it is
14:34 that the breast has to be squeezed between 2 plates,
14:37 and so we usually advise younger women who are still
14:40 menstruating that they go AFTER the menstrual cycle
14:43 so that their breasts are not sensitive and tender.
14:46 Don't they have some new machines now that make
14:50 that less comfortable... Oh yes!
14:52 All the time, techniques are improving...
14:55 so it's becoming less of a problem...
14:57 And it's certainly nothing excruciating that women
15:00 couldn't have a mammogram.
15:02 I can hear some of our viewers saying...
15:04 "Oh... it's good for him to say, he's never had to have one. "
15:07 But it is true that good technique in the hands of a
15:10 very supportive staff can be done very, very nicely.
15:15 You know, every year over 200,000 women hear these words
15:20 "I don't like the looks of that, we need to do a biopsy. "
15:24 And after they've done that, the doctor may say...
15:27 "I believe you might have an aggressive, or you might have
15:30 a cancerous tumor. "
15:31 What kind of treatment do you recommend?
15:35 There is not the slightest doubt in my mind...
15:39 and I don't believe that there's any doubt in the
15:42 literature either... that a cancer in the breast
15:46 caught early should be removed...
15:48 because it can usually be removed in its entirety.
15:52 Are you talking about a total mastectomy or... No
15:56 You know that again, there's been a lot of change...
16:00 Forty years ago, when I was a medical student,
16:04 they were doing radical mastectomies...
16:08 dissecting glands out behind the sternum,
16:12 really defacing the people.
16:16 Today with early detection...
16:18 and this is one of the beauties of doing routine mammography
16:21 with early detection, oftentimes a simple lumpectomy
16:25 In fact, there are people who have had an excision biopsy
16:29 that has been wide enough that it excised
16:32 the whole of the tumor...
16:34 and when that takes place, they may be cured!
16:37 And so, a lumpectomy may be all that's required.
16:41 Of course, the treatment has to be matched to the stage.
16:45 And you haven't talked about staging...
16:47 I haven't talked about staging, maybe we should talk about that
16:50 Cancer begins usually in a duct of the breast...
16:57 The breast is a gland, so in one of the gland ducts,
17:01 or in the acinar portion that makes the milk...
17:04 we start to get these abnormal cells that divide...
17:06 When they progress BEYOND the actual basement membrane,
17:13 they go from stage 0, which is just the abnormal cells
17:17 or in situ, to an invasive cancer...
17:21 But if it's a very small cancer, less than a centimeter,
17:24 it's just a stage I cancer...
17:28 and at that stage, very seldom has it spread to lymph nodes.
17:32 Now USALLY, in the biopsy or lumpectomy, they will examine
17:38 for lymph nodes in the axilla.
17:40 This is a test, as much as anything else, to see whether
17:43 it has spread to the axilla.
17:45 They currently are still removing, maybe 10-15 nodes
17:50 from the axilla... lymph glands from the axilla.
17:53 However, it has become increasingly obvious that the
17:56 sentinel node... that is the first node in the drainage area
18:02 can be biopsied, and it's looking very promising
18:06 in the studies that are being done...
18:07 that sentinel node biopsy, which would be simpler than
18:11 a total dissection of the axilla
18:14 will be sufficient to say whether or not
18:17 it has spread or not spread to the axilla.
18:19 If the sentinel node is NOT involved,
18:21 then the likelihood is 97-98% that no other nodes are involved
18:27 Of course, people, women or men, can ALWAYS have
18:30 the right to choose if they want a complete
18:32 dissection or otherwise.
18:35 Today, a simple mastectomy maybe required for a
18:39 more extensive cancer...
18:41 And then, of course, if the cancer is beginning to grow
18:45 through to the fibrous overlying the pectoralis muscle
18:49 on the chest wall, or is becoming more...
18:51 then a more radical procedure may require to be done.
18:55 But, by and large, we are seeing VERY FEW radical mastectomies
19:01 and, with early detection, far more is lumpectomy
19:05 followed in many cases by irradiation because
19:10 irradiation will mop up any localized cancer cells,
19:15 or cells that might be beginning to migrate
19:18 and the success rate with a local irradiation
19:21 has been just excellent.
19:22 What about systemic therapy that goes beyond radiation maybe
19:27 Somebody who has disease confined to the breast,
19:31 probably does not require very heavy chemotherapy.
19:36 Chemotherapy is reserved for people in whom
19:39 distant spread, or dissemination throughout the body...
19:43 stage III, stage IV, has taken place.
19:47 I should mention "tamoxifen"
19:50 because tamoxifen or these estrogen-blocking substances
19:54 ...These are substances which plug the estrogen receptors
19:57 And the idea there is that if you can plug
19:59 an estrogen receptor with tamoxifen,
20:02 then estrogen won't work on it.
20:05 The tamoxifen doesn't stimulate cellular division
20:07 it just blocks the receptor.
20:09 So that is sometimes recommended for a period of 4 to 5 years
20:12 AFTER there has been a treatment such as a lumpectomy,
20:19 followed by radiation.
20:20 Now, who makes the choice on whether the simple,
20:26 or more complicated, or more radical things are done
20:33 to the woman's breast? The patient.
20:37 Always the patient? The patient makes the choice.
20:40 We are responsible for our own bodies.
20:43 Now an intelligent patient, listens to good advice,
20:48 and weighs it, seeks out all kinds of
20:52 information, and then makes her or his choice
20:56 based on that information...
20:58 And that's why second opinions are VERY important.
21:01 Any of you who are watching this program... who may HAVE
21:05 a lump at this time, I would advise you STRONGLY
21:10 that you get as MUCH information as you possibly can.
21:14 One of the things that I sometimes feel we need to stress
21:18 particularly from this station, because we do an awful lot
21:23 of talk about lifestyle, and disease prevention...
21:28 we need to understand that there is a DIFFERENCE
21:30 between PREVENTING a disease, and CURING a disease.
21:35 I sometimes say that if you have a child who is wanting to put
21:38 his hand on a hot stove, and you pull the hand away,
21:41 you have prevented a burn!
21:44 But once the burn has taken place, it doesn't really help
21:47 to pull the hand away once the burn has taken place.
21:51 In the same way, our lifestyle is very, very important
21:56 for giving us the BEST chance possible to AVOID these diseases
22:01 But if we GET the disease through no fault of our own,
22:03 perhaps through genetics...
22:07 The fact is that we don't understand, nor know,
22:09 THEN, yes, those good lifestyle measures are still important
22:14 to help us FIGHT the disease,
22:17 but we really should get rid of it because we have no
22:20 evidence whatsoever that they will CURE the disease
22:24 unless we actually surgically remove or irradiate
22:27 somehow KILL those cancer cells.
22:30 And then, of course, the preventive measures are to
22:32 help us prevent getting cancerous change in tissues.
22:36 Do we really know some of the causes of breast cancer?
22:40 This has been looked at a great deal.
22:42 I've talked about the predisposing factors...
22:44 For instance, it may be estrogen exposure is important.
22:47 We know that young women who begin menstruating very early
22:50 ...maybe 9 years old, and then menstruate through
22:52 until they're 55 years of age, exposed to endogenous
22:56 body-made estrogen for a long time,
22:59 we know that they have an increased risk...
23:02 So the earlier age of menarche, and the long period of time
23:09 is the risk factor... IS a risk factor!
23:11 But does a woman have a choice?
23:12 She doesn't have a choice! Okay...
23:14 But there ARE some choices For instance...
23:17 AFTER the menopause, we also know that taking hormonal
23:21 replacement therapy, which can be justified in
23:25 certain situations, but we know that there is an
23:28 increased risk of breast cancer in the woman who continues
23:32 taking estrogens after the menopause...
23:36 because she is lengthening that exposure.
23:38 There is a little bit of evidence that
23:40 birth control pills MAY be related to breast cancer,
23:45 but it's not strong evidence.
23:46 It's just a little suggestion.
23:48 OBESITY is a VERY, VERY STRONG correlate.
23:52 ALCOHOL... the drinking of alcohol has been associated
23:56 with increased risks of breast cancer.
23:58 Now, what if the cancer reoccurs...
24:02 and how likely is it to reoccur after 5 years?
24:06 Is there any Stats on that?
24:08 Well, we can't ALWAYS say that somebody that survives 5 years
24:13 would not have a recurrence...
24:15 But the VAST majority who reach 5 years,
24:18 can clinically say that they are cured
24:21 That's good news! GOOD NEWS! Yes
24:23 Now, some women are concerned about the side effects of some
24:26 of these treatments.
24:28 Could you say just a little bit about that
24:29 in the next couple of minutes?
24:31 Well, I don't think it's a bad thing to be concerned about.
24:35 If you have dissection of the lymph glands, for instance,
24:39 in the axilla, which are very necessary if there is
24:41 cancer there, you may find that there is a swelling,
24:44 or what we call "lymphedema" of that arm.
24:47 ...Now you need to be very careful if that happens
24:50 because the skin will be particularly prone to
24:53 little cuts and scratches that can get infected
24:57 because the drainage is not good...
24:59 So that's an important thing to be aware of.
25:02 Of course, radiation leaves an area that is reddened,
25:07 and burned somewhat.
25:09 And people who have a reddening, you know,
25:13 later goes a little bronze, they may be self-conscious about that
25:17 Some numbness and tingling beneath an area of surgery
25:21 is not uncommon.
25:22 If you're on medications, the medications themselves
25:25 may have side effects.
25:26 Tamoxifen sometimes causes people to feel nauseated
25:30 It sometimes is upsetting to the stomach.
25:33 It can even irritate the lining of the uterus
25:36 and cause little cystic changes within the lining of the uterus.
25:39 So, yes, you have to be aware of these side effects.
25:42 What about losing their hair?
25:45 No, they're not going to lose hair with tamoxiphen. Okay
25:47 They are going to lose hair if they are put on other
25:51 chemotherapeutic agents that are, "cidal" to the cell
25:55 they are killing the cells, and they may lose their hair.
25:58 But the good thing about that is that hair usually re-grows.
26:02 What about reconstructive surgery?
26:04 Is that something you would recommend?
26:06 Reconstructive surgery is something that is really
26:11 a woman's choice.
26:12 It depends on how old they are...
26:15 It may depend on how they perceive their body...
26:18 the sense of body image that they have.
26:20 Some women feel a loss of femininity
26:23 when they lose the breast.
26:24 And certainly, reconstructive surgery can be done
26:26 beautifully... Plastic surgeons are excellent
26:29 at this, and they can do an excellent job using one's own
26:33 tissue, fat... moving it around, mobilizing their own flaps.
26:36 Sometimes putting in an implant which are very realistic
26:40 the implants of today.
26:41 And, by the way, implants have been cleared of some of the
26:45 shadow that was over them in times past.
26:52 So, this sounds a little encouraging...
26:55 that really, breast cancer diagnosis is not
26:59 necessarily a death sentence...
27:00 Oh no... breast cancer diagnosis is not a death sentence
27:03 by ANY MEANS! So it's not like the old days?
27:05 NOT like it used to be in the old days
27:07 And to this, we really owe, I believe, improved technology,
27:12 but very, very much so... EARLY diagnosis
27:16 and getting on with a specific treatment
27:19 at the time of early diagnosis
27:20 And just one other quick question about 15 seconds...
27:23 Should women consider alternative therapy in this case
27:29 Well, when you've had something studied as breast cancer
27:34 has been studied... with thousands upon THOUSANDS
27:36 of thousands of cases, there really is not an alternative
27:40 because they KNOW what is the best therapy...
27:43 and that's what's currently being used.
27:44 SO, we're GLAD TODAY, Dr. Handysides, for the
27:47 GOOD NEWS that you've given us about breast cancer.
27:49 We are happy that... what our viewers have,
27:53 hopefully, learned something more than they
27:55 knew about breast cancer.
27:57 It is not a death sentence.
27:59 There is great hope out there for you.
28:02 But, be sure to get checked up and be sure if you are
28:06 diagnosed... to believe the Lord can help you get through this
28:10 and you will, in the end, be good!


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Revised 2014-12-17